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December 28

Why are my local beaches not protected by lifeguards? (+ bonus question)

I would like to know why it is that the beaches in my area of Southwestern Scotland are not protected by lifeguards. This lifeguard protection I am talking about includes things such as lifeguards saving drowning people, different flags to indicate if it is safe to swim and surf or not, and also warning signs. I notice that places like California and Hawaii are heavily protected, but the beaches in my area in the South-West of Scotland have nothing like this, even though we can have 25 degrees centigrade summers, jellyfish, and rough water currents and dodgy weather at times. I feel it would be useful for people in my area to know how safe the beaches are, so I find it to be a bit of a outrage that no one is smart enough to use flags, signs and lifeguards, even though these things make beaches far safer than they otherwise would be. It’s not that we are remote either, some coastal towns here have over 15,000 people, and Ayr in South Ayrshire has around 45,000 citizens. So, what on earth is going on, and why can’t Bonnie Scotland have California style lifeguards, looking after its sandy beaches? Thank you. BONUS QUESTION: What are the criteria for a good surfing beach? We also have a lack of these near me. Pablothepenguin (talk) 00:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm wondering who you think should be making this happen. Lifesaving here in Australia began as an entirely voluntary movement. Even now, the vast majority of lifesavers are volunteers. So, maybe you and a few mates need to start the ball rolling by forming your own Surf Lifesaving Club. Have a look at Surf lifesaving for a lot more details. HiLo48 (talk) 00:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

@Pablothepenguin: Some California area lifeguards are part of the fire department (such as Los Angeles County Lifeguards and San Diego Fire-Rescue Department). Many northern California beaches have no lifeguard at all. RudolfRed (talk) 00:56, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

See [1]. There are lifeguards in some Scotland beaches. Contact RNLI to find out why they don't cover your favorite beach. RudolfRed (talk) 01:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Because no-one is paying for it. The RNLI is funded by donations, they can only use the resources they have. Once enough people fund the service, they can provide it. Nanonic (talk) 03:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

See RNLI Find my nearest lifeguarded beach. I'm not sure how many of these are entirely charitably funded or are subsidised by local authorities, which is the case for Bournemouth on the South Coast:

The Royal National Lifeboat Institution (RNLI) provides beach safety in Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole, funded by BCP Council. [2]

In the case of Bournemouth, which has an exeptionally long and very popular stretch of beaches, there is also a volunteer lifeguard club, the Bournemouth Lifeguard Corps, but presumably their volunteers can only be available in their free time. Alansplodge (talk) 11:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Additionally Surf Life Saving Great Britain provide volunteer patrols at popular surfing beaches, but as you say that your local beaches are unsuitable for surfing, don't expect to see them there. Alansplodge (talk) 11:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, I wonder what it is that makes a particular beach suitable for surfing. Why are there no beaches like this on the west coast of Scotland? Pablothepenguin (talk) 15:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn’t there at least be someone at my beach who can mark it ff with coloured flags that indicate safety. Pablothepenguin (talk) 15:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Why? If a lot of people use it, then there may be a case for lifeguards. However most beaches in the UK are not "recognised bathing beaches" and so provided. If you are concerned then find a guarded beach, but you may need to travel. The usual advice is to ask the locals, they are likely to know if there are any specific hazards. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 17:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Who, exactly, do you think should be responsible for carrying out these tasks and paying their costs?

If this is 'your local beach', presumably you are (if an adult) paying local council tax – perhaps you should petition your Council to raise the tax in order to pay for and provide these services.

Why are you not able to use your own common sense and decide for yourself whether or not it is safe to bathe, rather than have someone else tell you? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.111.170 (talk) 18:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Because I can’t see what lurks beneath the water. I’m thinking jellyfish and sharks. I saw a lot of jellyfish last summer. Besides, So-Cal actually uses flags to mark which areas are safe for swimming and which aren’t. I mean, I can’t see submerged rocks either. Pablothepenguin (talk) 00:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

If in doubt, stay out. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:29, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

You may think that 25°C air temperature and (I suppose) around 16°C water temperature is nice for swimming, but most people like it a bit warmer. Along the Mediterranean or in Southern California, it easily gets 10 to 15°C warmer. You may consider Ayr, with 45000 people, a sizeable town, but compared to Los Angeles (twice the population of Scotland) it's nothing. Combined, that means that the beaches in SW Scotland aren't very busy. I live a bit further south (Netherlands) and our beaches are only actively guarded on the busiest days (5°C warmer than you get) in the most popular areas, that is, those within commuting distance from a city of at least half a million people. 15000 people is what I call a village. Glasgow is about 50 km from your beach, a little too far to call it commuting distance.

The species of sharks and jellyfish you find in Western Europe are generally not dangerous. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:22, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking 26 to 31 °C sounded a little warm for California, so I googled around a bit and found seatemperature.net, which shows a graph of "average water temperature change" for Los Angeles and San Diego. Neither graph goes much above 72 or 73 °F over the course of a year, which would be less than 23 °C. However the graphs don't seem to show diurnal variation; if that's the average over a day, then I suppose it might be a little warmer at say 4 PM, at least where the sand drops off shallowly.

Subjectively, summer ocean water is pretty comfortable in SoCal, but there's still a little feeling of shock diving in the first time. You wouldn't get that at 31 °C (and it would be way too warm for exercise swimming). --Trovatore (talk) 18:37, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

"Glasgow is about 50 km from your beach, a little too far to call it commuting distance." Definitely a US vs UK/Europe difference here, as that isn't that bad by American standards. I know lots of people who drive 30 miles for their jobs.-User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:38, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

No. For 34 years I drive at least 30 miles commuting and my wife still does. It's not that uncommon in south-east England. To get a place near my work I'd have needed many times my salary, and then I'd be stuck in London. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 18:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

For a job, it may happen. People don't like such one-hour commutes, but in our plutocratic society you may not have a choice. But I considered commuting distance context-dependent. To go an afternoon to the beach, it appears that 40 km is about the limit here, and that only with a straight railway leading directly from the city to the beach. Did I stretch the meaning of "commuting" too much? Would many people in Glasgow say, ‘The weather is nice, let's go to the beach this afternoon?’ Without that, it won't get busy on the beaches of Troon, Prestwick and Ayr. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:43, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

"Commuting is periodically recurring travel between one's place of residence and place of work or study" which is why I queried it. I'd agree though that a 50 mile run from Glasgow to the beach would be too far for a stress-free afternoon. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Still seems quite doable to this American.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:41, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

What would qualify as "suitable" for surfing? Big waves? A lack of rocks to crash into? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:28, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

"Local Factors Affecting Surf Quality".  --Lambiam 19:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't good surf depend upon deep ocean swell coming ashore? I'm thinking of Hawaii, California and closer Cornwall. Southwestern Scotland is shielded by Ireland, so there will only be the shorter period waves. Any experts here who can comment? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:39, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

See Surfing in Scotland. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Ta. "The best surf spots in Scotland are located on the north coast." sort of confirms what I supposed. At least on the west coast the gulf stream keeps the water a bit warmer, not like swimmming in the North Sea! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:51, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The better the surf, the more dangerous it is, no? [3]. 2A02:C7B:116:E200:A1DA:3FF2:B0B4:3244 (talk) 17:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Be careful what you wish for. If you swim more than 50 yards (maybe it's even 50 feet?) from shore, the LA lifeguards will home in on you and order you back. Makes me pretty angry really. But if you go up towards Malibu you can find unsurveilled beaches where you can take your own chances. --Trovatore (talk) 20:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

If it makes you angry, why then obey the "order"? fiveby(zero) 22:16, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Presumably they would be waiting for me when I came out and give me a ticket. I'm not sure of that; I haven't really researched it. --Trovatore (talk) 22:23, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

It would be worthwhile to research it. Maybe the only penalty is that if you go out too far and then run into trouble, they won't help you. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I haven't managed to find specific information for LA, but San Diego's website says "[i]t is a misdemeanor to fail to follow the lawful order of a lifeguard". I would be surprised if LA were more tolerant. --Trovatore (talk) 01:13, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

It gets interesting in North Carolina, where I have been fussed at by plenty of lifeguards. The beach is technically state property, yet local towns get to pass and enforce laws related to public safety on land adjacent to their boundaries. As far as enforcing what someone does when floating or swimming in the ocean, I find their jurisdictional reasoning even more suspect. They regularly stop boaters in open water though, so I doubt I I would be doing anything other than wasting everyone's time if I wanted to challenge anything in court. Beach drifter (talk) 01:32, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

This sounds very familiar. I had to give up snow skiing when ski patrol began writing speeding tickets. I honestly don't miss it. Viriditas (talk) 07:22, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

1) Ask your local council

2) Geology. DuncanHill (talk) 01:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

I notice that places like California and Hawaii are heavily protected

Au contraire, it took years, in some areas decades, to get lifeguards in these places. The history of lifeguard stations in Hawaii was long fought over many years. For whatever reason, at one time, the state was very much against it. There's still running skirmishes to get lifeguard stations in certain areas. Viriditas (talk) 05:48, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

banned user
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
On Trovatore's point, in Portugal's Algarve (and no doubt elsewhere along the coast) there are secret beaches - that is the joy of them. If every beach were patrolled by lifeguards they wouldn't be secret any more. But there are life-threatening riptides. In one case, a couple went down to the beach and the wife unsuccessfully tried to dissuade her husband from entering the water. She was keeping a careful eye on him when a fellow hotel guest struck up a conversation. The husband got into difficulties and when the wife looked up after the conversation finished it was too late to save him. On the northwest coast, a family group on holiday went down to the beach. One man went into the water and was swept out to sea. Another swam out to help and was also unable to get back to shore. Others followed and all perished - in the end there was only one woman left on the beach who reported the incident to the authorities. 92.8.151.157 (talk) 15:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Sobering thoughts. It's worth reading the section Rip tide#Surviving rip tides which is good advice promulgated by various rescue agencies. See also Rip current#Danger to swimmers which deals with rip currents which are often incorrectly called rip tides. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Your first link above seems a bit problematic, in that the heading is "Surviving rip tides" but the content is about rip currents. It doesn't seem to give any advice for what to do if you're caught in an actual rip tide. Presumably it stops at low tide, but that could be hours. --Trovatore (talk) 17:54, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I will probably make enquiries with my local authority and other relevant folks at some point. I think they will help me. Note that I’ve always been annoyed at the weather here, and the fact that our beaches aren’t as good as the ones in California. Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

December 29

How are years written in India?

I've noticed that some articles about India write years as 2,023 instead of 2023. Is this common and if yes, only in certain regions or languages? Date-related articles such as Date and time notation in India don't mention that style, nor does it seem to be used anywhere else. --2001:871:22B:B81E:FC2C:18DE:F60:C6F8 (talk) 18:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

If you see this in the Population section of an infobox, the commas are probably introduced automatically by the use of {{Infobox settlement}}, which inserts commas in numerals of four or more digits in its population_total and other population parameters. Years should not be used in these parameters.  --Lambiam 23:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Wisconsinite bald eagles

I know there are two subspecies of bald eagles: the southern one and the northern one. Which kind lives in Wisconsin? EAGLITIZED (talk) 20:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

According to our article Bald eagle, the southern bald eagle, Haliaeetus leucocephalus leucocephalus, is found in the southern United States and Baja California Peninsula, whereas the northern bald eagle, Haliaeetus leucocephalus washingtoniensis, is found in the northern United States, Canada and Alaska. These ranges, as defined, do not overlap, which is somewhat implausible, but Wisconsin is definitely one of the more northern US states.  --Lambiam 22:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Exactly which states and provinces do northern bald eagles live in. Name every single one if you can. 2600:6C44:627F:5865:D028:C3FF:FE4B:8D02 (talk) 19:28, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't know how reliable they are, but the few websites I've found in the last couple minutes (1, 2, 3) all list Haliaeetus leucocephalus as the species...which is the Southern variety. --Onorem (talk) 22:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

No, Haliaeetus leucocephalus is the overall species that includes both subspecies. The Southern variety is Haliaeetus leucocephalus leucocephalus. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.111.170 (talk) 22:56, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Guess I misread. I didn't think it made sense. --Onorem (talk) 23:41, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

[Edit Conflicts] From our article Bald Eagle, section Taxonomy:

"There are two recognized subspecies of bald eagle:

H[aliaeetus] l[eucocephalus] leucocephalus (Linnaeus, 1766) is the nominate subspecies. It is found in the southern United States and Baja California Peninsula.

H. l. washingtoniensis (Audubon, 1827), synonym H. l. alascanus Townsend, 1897, the northern subspecies, is larger than southern nominate leucocephalus. It is found in the northern United States, Canada and Alaska."

Wisconsin being a northern state, Bald Eagles seen there are therefore more likely to be H. l. washingtoniensis: see also the range map in the infobox. The Range section also says that the northern birds are migratory, whereas those in the south are resident.

The article's text does not clearly state where the migratory birds migrate from and to: this could stand improvement from someone more knowledgeable who can access relevent sources. {The poster formerly knwn as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.111.170 (talk) 22:52, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Bald eagles in northern Wisconsin aren't migratory. I have a map that says bald eagles are found throughout the state year round. Some in the northern part of their range winter in the southern half. 2600:6C44:627F:5865:D028:C3FF:FE4B:8D02 (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

December 30

Two colors of bald eagles?

I know bald eagles are dark brown, but in some photos, they appear black (I'm not talking about the juveniles. in the photos I'm taking about, they're black with a white head and tail like adults). EAGLITIZED (talk) 16:45, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Lighting.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:30, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

As with the varying apparent colors in illustrations within Bald eagle. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Irish golden eagles

I know it's strange to ask this question, but I heard there were sightings of golden eagles in Ireland, and I was just wondering which cities, towns, villages etc. they were found in EAGLITIZED (talk) 16:49, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

According to [4] and [5], it was reintroduced in County Donegal. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:00, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Was the golden eagle really reintroduced to Ireland, I thought there were only sightings people didn't know about. 2600:6C44:627F:5865:D028:C3FF:FE4B:8D02 (talk) 18:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Do those web sites not look legit to you or do you have any other reason to doubt what they say? --Wrongfilter (talk) 19:18, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I didn't doubt any websites, This is the first time I learned golden eagles were reintroduced and I just got confused... 2600:6C44:627F:5865:D028:C3FF:FE4B:8D02 (talk) 18:19, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Subspecies of white-tailed-sea-eagles

An article on Wikipedia said that there are two subspecies of white tailed sea eagles, but there are no photos that compare them. I need all the information on the differences of the two subspecies. EAGLITIZED (talk) 16:59, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

From ourown article: "At one time an eastern subspecies (H. a. brooksi) was proposed as well but there is little evidence supporting this as more than a case of clinal variation in colouring and size (i.e. the eastern average slightly darker and smaller than more westerly ones)." Basically, the division into two subspecies isn't certain and, even if it were, it wouldn't necessarily be evident from photos.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:29, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Texan stellers sea eagles, and Irish bald eagles, I don't think so!

I learned a stellers sea eagle wound up in Texas after a snow storm. Texas isn't even close to Asia where they normally live. I also know bald eagles have crossed the Atlantic Ocean and wound up in Ireland. How does a bird fly that far? EAGLITIZED (talk) 17:21, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

"How does a bird fly that far?" See Arctic tern for an example of a bird where this is a built-in feature, not an accident. So, yes, birds can fly an awful long way. Xuxl (talk) 18:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

The record holder so far is the bar-tailed godwit. "The migration of the subspecies Limosa lapponica baueri across the Pacific Ocean from Alaska to New Zealand is the longest known non-stop flight of any bird, and also the longest journey without pausing to feed by any animal" according to our article. One individual flew non-stop from Alaska to Tasmania, Australia, a distance of 13,560 kilometres (8,430 mi) in just over 11 days reported here by the Guardian. Mikenorton (talk) 21:53, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

By flapping its wings.

Taking r the lift-to-drag ratio of the bird's wing, g the acceleration of gravity, H the energy released by burning a certain amount of fat and k the efficiency at which this energy can be used for propulsion, and realising that work needed equals trust times distance, that trust equals weight divided by lift-to-drag ratio and that its mass decreases as it burns its fat, it's trivial to find the differential equation relating mass m to distance covered s:

${\frac {dm}{ds}}=-{\frac {mg}{rkH}}$

which leads to

$m(s)=A\exp(-{\frac {gs}{rkH}})$

Filling in some plausible numbers (r=14, k=0.2, H=3.8⋅10⁷ J/kg), this tells us that a bird can fly 13,560 km without foraging if it's able to burn an amount of fat equal to about 70% of its initial body weight. If the bird encounters convenient winds, in particular rising air, it may need less fat. It's pushing the limits of what's biologically possible, but it's no magic. PiusImpavidus (talk) 14:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Re-reading my copy of A world on the wing by Scott Weidensaul (ISBN 978-1-5098-4105-9) it says on page 66 that they do this by feeding up prior to departure from Alaska in September, more than doubling their weight, giving them thick layers of fat. Their "gizzard and intestines shrink and atrophy, while their pectoral muscles double in mass....as does their heart muscle, and their lungs increase in capacity". They make use of favourable autumn tailwinds to give them a headstart for the first part of their trek, powering on until they reach the austral westerlies that give them a final boost. They do it all again twice in the spring, travelling back to Alaska via a stopover in China/Korea. Mikenorton (talk) 15:45, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

This autumn, the fall migration along the eastern seaboard of North America was interrupted by Hurricane Lee, causing large numbers of American birds to turn up unexpectedly along the west coasts of England, Ireland and Scotland, driving the local birders wild with excitement, see another Guardian article. Mikenorton (talk) 15:57, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

The range map in our article is pretty poor, but it seems to indicate that, if Alaska existed, it would fall within this species' "vagrant range". Going from Alaska to Texas is a fair jump, but it's not like they're coming from Iraq or something. Matt Deres (talk) 00:24, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

December 31

Why cancel the entire Eurostar service?

Something in the news struck me as odd yesterday, and maybe some of our British contributors can enlighten me.

It was was reported that the tunnel in High Speed 1 passing under the Thames was flooded and therefore all Eurostar trains between the UK and the Continent were cancelled. 41 long and full trains cancelled, thousands of travellers stuck in London, Paris and Brussels. I know that the pickup shoes for third rail electrification needed to run on the conventional lines in SE England have been removed from the Eurostar trains, so running to one of the stations in South London is no longer an option (the first time I used Eurostar it still ran to Waterloo Station). But Ashford International and Ebbsfleet International (walking distance from Northfleet station) could still be reached from the Channel Tunnel, or so it appeared from the news. Why did they not run the Eurostar trains to one of those stations, and use local trains or even buses to connect to central London? From the names of those stations, I'd expect that border check facilities are at least available, even if not permanently staffed. PiusImpavidus (talk) 14:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Very good question, I asked my wife that last night whilst watching the news. I do know that Ashford has been run down and very few (or no) Eurostars stop there, much to the disgust of the local residents who have to travel to London in order to come back! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:36, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I would suspect reasons would include 1) Where are the units? (If at Temple Mills then they are affected by the flood) and, where do they need to go to be prepared between journeys? 2) Where are the staff? Can you get Eurostar and border staff to Ashford/Ebbsfleet in sufficient numbers and in the timescale needed? 3) Even if you can get the units and the staff to Ashford or Ebbsfleet, what are the facilities like? They've been mothballed since 2020. DuncanHill (talk) 15:47, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, any units at the Temple Mills depot would be useless. I suppose some units would have spend the night in Paris or Brussels, but fewer units than usual would be available. Maybe enough to run a service from Ashford to Lille? But if the facilities have been mothballed since 2020, I can imagine it could be difficult to put them back in service on such short notice. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:34, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

DuncanHill's excellent answer might perhaps be supplemented by one other point. Since Brexit, there are now additional checks between the EU and UK. Eurostar has funded new facilities at St Pancras to accommodate them, but still has to leave about 30% of seats empty because there is not enough space nor enough border officials to check a whole train. Since Eurostar service to Ashford International and Ebbsfleet International was suspended before Brexit, those station have never had facilities for the new checks. Although Eurostar pays for them, the arrangements would have to be implemented by the Home Office. Both its own leadership and academics have questioned whether the Home Office's border operations are "fit for purpose", so it seems unlikely that they could or would set up new border controls in the remaining hours of the Saturday of a holiday weekend. It took more than two years to get new border controls implemented at Amsterdam; I seem to remember Nigel Harris attributed this to Home Office funding constraints, but he has deleted all his tweets so I may have misremembered. Matt's talk 22:37, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. It appears that Ebbsfleet International and Ashford International are misnomers now, as those station don't really support international trains any longer. It's a pity that all those border formalities are needed. In Benelux, Germany, France etc. it's much easier to improvise some solution. The Frankfurt–Amsterdam trains get frequently rerouted from their usual Emmerich border crossing to the Venlo border crossing, with an additional call at a station that normally doesn't see any international trains. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The border formalities are needed because politicians have decided they are needed. I doubt there is evidence that the net effect is positive.  --Lambiam 14:13, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Coastal white-tailed sea-eagles

I learned apparently white-tailed sea-eagles were reintroduced to southwestern Ireland and some have expanded throughout the coast. Is there a map that actually says that, because the one on Wikipedia doesn't? 2600:6C44:627F:5865:D028:C3FF:FE4B:8D02 (talk) 19:42, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

How about this one? --Wrongfilter (talk) 20:20, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Bald eagle confusion

Once, while at a Raptor Education Group Inc, they had a bald eagle named Theo, which was a male. Even though it was a male it was huge! It appeared to be over a meter long, which is a large size for a male bald eagle in Wisconsin. I'm pretty sure it's a female. Am I right? 2600:6C44:627F:5865:D028:C3FF:FE4B:8D02 (talk) 20:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Contact details for Raptor Education Group Inc are [6]. A question about one of their birds should be asked there. --Wrongfilter (talk) 20:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

If they have already claimed it's a male, I doubt whether they will change their opinion based merely on the size it "appeared" to you. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:35, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

On the other hand, the Raptor Education Group says Theo is female. [7] --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 16:23, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

January 1

Parliamentary procedure

What exactly is the difference between "majority of those present" and "majority of those present and voting"? 2601:646:8080:FC40:7042:7EFC:5F93:408A (talk) 03:41, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

You haven't told us which parliament, but where I live, Australia, such a situation would be explained by members abstaining from voting. HiLo48 (talk) 03:58, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

In some cases, there may be members present who do not vote. Members might wish to be present in order to constitute a quorum without voting.

There are also variations in how abstentions are handled. In some public parliamentary bodies (such as the European Parliament, see Rule 180.3), abstentions can be formally registered in the same was a Yes or No vote. However, this is not universal. In the Parliament of the United Kingdom, only Aye (Yes) or No votes can be recorded. Therefore, members sometimes cast both votes to make clear that they are intentionally abstaining, avoiding accusations that they are neglecting their duties. Matt's talk 15:58, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

So what about the US Congress? 2601:646:8080:FC40:7042:7EFC:5F93:408A (talk) 02:51, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Standard parliamentary procedure: if you are present and vote vs present and anything else (formal abstention, or just ignoring the vote). DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 23:46, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! So in "majority of those present", the denominator is the total of those present regardless of how or whether they voted, whereas in "majority of those present and voting", the denominator is the total number of yes+no votes, and does not include "present" votes or any other kind of formal abstention votes -- is that correct? 2601:646:8080:FC40:2480:B8DC:C513:1FD0 (talk) 02:52, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

See Voting methods in deliberative assemblies § United States.  --Lambiam 00:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

January 2

Bakery scene in movie

For me, the bakery scene is an iconic scene in the movie (Once Upon a Time in America). There are cakes of all kinds; for example, could the cakes have looked like cakes for religious or personal holidays, or both? Thanks. https://www.google.it/search?client=safari&sca_esv=594974358&channel=iphone_bm&sxsrf=AM9HkKmDYhxHmeq2qQWr2DMk9ja84P8t7w:1704154931805&q=once+upon+a+time+in+america+birthday+cakes&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjNyOjqt72DAxUkcvEDHSEND58Q0pQJegQICRAB&biw=1964&bih=965&dpr=0.9#imgrc=PasuH-dw4lcXkM 5.95.197.140 (talk) 00:25, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

They just look like everyday cupcakes to me, but the very first link returned when I follow your search query has details about the dessert, which it calls a "charlotte russe cake". Matt Deres (talk) 17:23, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

You can see better from here; they also look like cakes for personal occasions for example, like what do I know like birthdays or other holidays. It may be perhaps... https://www.google.it/search?client=safari&sca_esv=595140811&channel=iphone_bm&sxsrf=AM9HkKllhzShClOjHtOYaonno2cnNAmJOg:1704221727551&q=once+upon+a+time+in+america+bakery+scene&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjKlMHVsL-DAxUdW_EDHWsXDMQQ0pQJegQICRAB&biw=1964&bih=965&dpr=0.9#imgrc=m6AxfRtpodcRYM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.95.197.140 (talk) 19:00, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

What sets cakes for personal occasions apart from other cakes is that they have a text written on them that is appropriate for the occasion. The first two cakes on raised platforms seen in the GIF are large enough that someone could order one to be decorated with "Happy Birthday" lettering or some other congratulatory message. The specific cakes seen are, however, already decorated in ways that may make it challenging to add a text. As we only have a view from the side, that is not something that can be made out.  --Lambiam 00:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

True, we have a partial and suboptimal view; probably writing (and even candles) were not yet in use at that time, so it could be possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.95.197.140 (talk) 09:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The tradition of having text written on cakes and of putting candles on birthday cakes is older.^[8][9][10] Obviously, custom text needs to be ordered in advance; cakes with custom text will not be on display in the vitrine of a pastry shop.  --Lambiam 12:57, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Need help with naming convention

• Eleusinian Mysteries Hydria (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

@Choliamb and UndercoverClassicist: The editor who created this article meant well, but I don't think the title really works. Please help me come up with a new title for this 1883 archaeological discovery. It's a 4th century BCE hydria that was found in Capua, now held by the Museum of Fine Arts of Lyon. Link to LIMC and museum collection. How should an article about the object be named on Wikipedia? Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 05:44, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Titles can be a tricky business in articles like this. What problem with the existing title were you looking to solve?

A couple of thoughts:

• Italic titles should only be used for works of art that have definitive, agreed-upon titles (e.g. Great Expectations or "The Iliad", not for titles of convenience or descriptions (e.g. Aineta aryballos, Persian Rider.) Admittedly, the line is thin when we're talking about classical works, but in this case there's definitely no universally-used name, so the italics should go.
• As to what the title should be: the overarching guideline is WP:COMMONNAME, which says to use the name by which that thing is generally known to our audience, but I don't think that's much help here; scanning through the sources, the object is generally described rather than named. MOS:TITLE gives five goals: recognisability, naturalness, precision, concision and consistency.
• Honestly, I think the current title is fine for all of those: it isn't wonderfully precise, and there isn't a consistent style between similar articles (compare Three-Bodied Daemon (ACMA 35) vs. Euthydikos Kore vs. Kore 670). To answer the main question in your post, there isn't any specific guideline or house style as to how articles on objects like these should be titled: it's very much writer's preference, and in most cases we defer to that when there's no clear "right" answer (compare MOS:ERA, MOS:RETAIN etc.).
• Another option would be to use a museum-number title, as with the so-called Three-Bodied Daemon, but I'm not generally a fan of those -- they improve precision but at the expense of all four of the other goals, and I don't think that's usually a good trade. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:27, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The museum itself uses the title "Hydrie des Mystères d'Éleusis" in French, and "Hydria featuring the Eleusinian Mysteries" in English.^[11][12] Especially the latter makes clear this designation is not a proper noun. This is not the only hydria featuring the Eleusinian cult that has been found: here we find:

48a. Gods around the omphalos of Eleusis, on an Attic hydria from Crete. Athens, National Museum. Pp: DAI, Athens.        160
...
49a/ 49b. Gods at the omphalos of Eleusis, on an Attic hydria from Santa Maria in Capua Vetere. Lyons, Palais des Arts.    161

The hydria from Crete is probably the one depicted here. An unambiguous name for the article is "Hydria from Capua featuring the Eleusinian Mysteries".  --Lambiam 10:39, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest that name fails the concision test, and that ambiguity is only in play if there are other Wikipedia articles with which it might be confused. As an example, we have e.g. Alan Wace, not Alan Wace (archaeologist), because while there have undoubtedly been other people by that name, none of them yet have an article. Is there another Wikipedia article that someone might reasonably be expecting when searching for "Eleusinian Mysteries Hydria"? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they might be expecting an article on Eleusinian Mysteries hydriae in general, or one on the Cretan Eleusinian Mysteries hydria.  --Lambiam 12:42, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Responding to ping, but with the caution that I am not a regular contributor to Wikipedia, I have never written or named a new article, and I know nothing of WP naming conventions. For what it's worth, my opinion is that some disambiguation would be a good thing here. As User:Lambiam points out, there is another similar Kerch-style hydria in Athens, National Museum 1443, from Crete, that is frequently cited in discussions of Eleusinian iconography. I usually turn first to Kevin Clinton for any epigraphical or iconographical questions about Eleusis, and in Myth and Cult: The Iconography of the Eleusinian Mysteries), he refers to them as "the Athens hydria" and "the Lyons hydria". I agree that "Hydria from Capua featuring the Eleusinian Mysteries" is not very concise (although, as a non-Wikipedia person, I don't understand why that would be a serious problem, since you can create any number of more concise redirects, right?). In any case, if brevity is paramount, perhaps something like "Eleusinian Mysteries Hydria in Lyons" or "Lyons Eleusinian Mysteries Hydria" would be an acceptable compromise? That's all I have to offer, and in the case of disagreement I defer to UndercoverClassicist, whose understanding of what WP wants is far greater than mine. Cheers, Choliamb (talk) 16:30, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Just to put it on record, I think everything here is very sensible and I'd have no major objection to any of the titles proposed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 19:04, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

In any case, whatever article name is chosen, "hydria" should be spelled with a lower-case "h" unless it is the first word of the name.  --Lambiam 23:49, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

January 3

Who do so many countries keep their gold at the bank of England. They can store the gold in their own countries.

As above 102.33.34.102 (talk) 17:51, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The Bank of England stores around half a million bars of gold. They keep track of how many are owned by each client. The client can be a country. The client can be a company. The client can by a person. Having them in the Bank of England provides security becasue they are guaranteed by the bank and replaced if stolen. It also provides ease of use. If I owned some bars there and you owned some bars there, I could easily transfer a bar to you by telling the bank that I wanted to do so. They don't need to actually move a bar of gold. They just update the ownership ledger. As for storing gold in your own country, that is based on the assumption of stability. If a government is overthrown, all gold locally held by the government will be taken by the new government. Having a large supply of gold in the country is an incentive to overthrow the government. By storing it outside the country, the new government has to convince the bank that they should legally have access to the gold. It is far more difficult to do. For example, when the Taliban overthrew the Afghanistan government, they were faced with the task of convincing financial institutions that they should have access to the funds. The United States froze the national funds, refusing to let the Taliban access them. I believe they are still frozen. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 18:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)