Jump to content

Talk:List of oldest living state leaders

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by StjepanHR (talk | contribs) at 18:09, 17 January 2024 (→Unproven possibilities and future additions: , added to the addenda some time ago). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Unproven possibilities and future additions

There is a list of all leaders for which there is not a death date on Rulers.org (at least before one month), and I sorted them in few categories (U stands for "unproven", A for "alive"):

Name State Position Birth note
Possibly dead, but potential additions if a recent source can be found
Emmanuel Bruny Haiti Executive Government Council (1957) 1915
J.L. Malhautra Sikkim Acting Political Officer (1964) 1915 Unlikely position qualifies
Feliciano Avelar El Salvador Member of the Civic-Military Directory (1961-1962) 1919 Could this be him? [1] ; Obviously not, as there are sources of him being alive in 1965
Avtar Singh Sikkim Political Officer (1964-1966) 18 October 1921 Unlikely position qualifies; possibly died in 2015 [2] common name/surname combination though
Ricardo Falla Cáceres El Salvador Junta of Government (1960-1961) 1921 Spanish wiki [3] and some other sources [4] [5] claim 1929-1990
Jaime Florentino Mendieta Vargas Bolivia Junta of Commanders of the Armed Forces (1971) 1922 Possibly 1926-2000?
Marino Vagnetti San Marino Captain Regent (1971-1972, 1989) 1924
Ahmad al-Sayari Yemen (Kingdom) Prime Minister (1962) 1924 Unclear status/DoB list
No citation, see discussion here
Ri Kun-mo DPR Korea Premier (1986-1988) 1926 Likely deceased, see discussion here; [[6]] claims that he didn't die in 2001, but simply retired
Emmanuel Bodjollé Togo Chairman of the Insurrection Committee (1963) 1928 Needs a better citation
Michel Lévêque Monaco Minister of State (1997-2000) 19 July 1933 Needs a more recent citation
Martin M'Bia Congo (People's Republic of the)
[a.k.a. Congo-Brazzaville]		 Member of the Military Committee (1977) 1934 Unclear status/DoB list
Some sources indicate he might be dead: [7], [8] and [9]
Óscar Pammo Rodríguez [es] Bolivia Junta member (1981) 1934 Unclear status/DoB list
Needs a more recent citation (2006: [10])
"None of the Soviet Republic Party Secretaries in this table were in power when their republics were recognized as independent states by other United Nations member states, or by the Commission of the European Economic Community, which should be the criterion for their inclusion in the main article table. Vaino Väljas is a special case, as he was still Party Chairman on August 20, 1991 (the day Estonia restored its independence); however, the Popular Front of Estonia had won the ESSR's republic elections on March 18, 1990, and were directing the government in Tallinn, not the republic's Communist Party." – Jwkozak91 (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1. Good possibility of being alive (1926-1929, 1930 and later to be done): (U=3, A=0)

  • Ambrose Patrick Genda, Sierra Leone, head of government, 1927, somebody with the same name died in London in 2001 (and in "Reinventing the Colonial State: Constitutionalism, One-party Rule, and Civil" (p. 138), it is claimed that he had lived in London) and German wiki claimed he died in 2015
Asked about him on German Wiki, he died in 2002, the user told me that the source is "The Paradoxes of History and Memory in Post-Colonial Sierra Leone". I still won't cross him, as I can't preview the book, but I am 99% sure he is not alive anymore StjepanHR (talk) 15:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree he's very likely deceased, though I notice that the page reference given in the German article (p679) can't be right because the publisher only lists the book as having 332 pages! Curiously, Genda doesn't appear on List of heads of state of Sierra Leone at all - I don't know why, as others in 'office' for as little as a couple of days do appear. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:16, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ri Kun-mo, North Korea, prime minister, 1926, published in 2004, chronology through 2001, now disputed. Died in 2001 according to Alexandre Mansourov.
"Historical Dictionary of Togo" (ed. 2021) refers to him as "retired". Is it enough to put him on the list? StjepanHR (talk) 03:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

– Adding to prevent further archiving – Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

- and again, bot closed it TheCorriynial (talk) 15:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Postponing archive Star Garnet (talk) 07:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1934 births

I think this concept of a table is a good one.

As of 27 December 2021, there are 3 people left to add to the hidden 5 in the main article table. I could only find these people going through 1934#Births (again, feel free to add others or remove those who are deceased):

Name State Position Birth note
Rudolf Schuster Slovakia President (1999–2004) 4 January 1934 Added to main list 9/7/2022
Jean Chrétien Canada Prime Minister (1993–2003) 11 January 1934 Added to main list 15/7/2022
Édith Cresson France Prime Minister (1991–1992) 27 January 1934 Added to main list 30/8/2022
Eddie Fenech Adami Malta Prime Minister (1987–1996; 1998–2004)
President (2004–2009)		 7 February 1934 Added to main list 8/9/2022
Mohamed Ennaceur Tunisia Acting President (2019) 21 March 1934 Added to main list 4/11/2022
J. Y. Pillay Singapore Acting President (2017) 30 March 1934 Added to main list 5/11/2022
Édouard Frank Central African Republic Prime Minister (1991–1992) 5 April 1934 Added to main list 30/11/2022
John Malecela Tanzania Prime Minister (1990–1994) 19 April 1934 Added to main list 31/12/2022
Pedro Pires Cape Verde Prime Minister (1975–1991)
President (2001–2011)		 29 April 1934 Added to main list 3/1/2023
Lee Hong-koo South Korea Prime Minister (1994–1995) 9 May 1934 Added to main list 9/2/2023
Heng Samrin Kampuchea (People's Republic of) President of the Council of State (1979–1992)
Party General Secretary (1981–1991)		 25 May 1934 Added to main list 11/2/2023
Monica Dacon Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Acting Governor-General (2002) 4 June 1934 Added to main list 22/4/2023
Albert II Belgium King (1993–2013) 7 June 1934 Added to main list 6/7/2023
Désiré Rakotoarijaona Madagascar (People's Republic of) Prime Minister (1977–1988) 19 June 1934 Added to main list 21/7/2023
Dumitru Mazilu Romania Member of the National Salvation Front Council (1989) 24 June 1934 Added to unclear status list 27/7/2023
Fernando José de França Dias Van-Dúnem Angola Prime Minister (1991–1992; 1996–1999) 24 August 1934 Added to main list 27/7/2023
Ricardo de la Espriella Panama President (1982–1984) 5 September 1934 Added to main list 1/8/2023
Apas Jumagulov Kyrgyzstan Prime Minister (1993–1998) 19 September 1934 Added to main list 22/9/2023
Eugene Koffi Adoboli Togo Prime Minister (1999–2000) 3 October 1934 Added to main list 21/10/2023
Yakubu Gowon Nigeria Head of the Federal Military Government (1966–1975) 19 October 1934 Added to main list 29 (30, announced date in NZ)/12/2023
Hamilton Green Guyana Prime Minister (1985–1992) 9 November 1934 Added to main list 1/1/2024
Ingvar Carlsson Sweden Prime Minister (1986–1991; 1994–1996)
Nicéphore Soglo Benin Acting Prime Minister (1990–1991)
President (1991–1996)		 29 November 1934
Tarcisio Bertone Vatican Camerlengo during papal vacancy (2013) 2 December 1934 Unclear status list
Pratibha Patil India President (2007–2012) 19 December 1934
Stjepan Mesić Yugoslavia
Croatia		 President of the Presidency (1991)
President (2000–2010)		 24 December 1934
Waldo Bernal Pereira [es] Bolivia Junta member (1980; 1981) 1931/1934 Added to unclear status/DoB list 13/2/2022
Félix Mouzabakani Congo-Brazzaville Co-Commander of the Army (1963) 1934 Added to unclear status/DoB list 9/7/2022
Severiano Tura San Marino Captain Regent (1985) c. 1934 Added to unclear DoB list 8/2/2023

– Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Waldo Bernal Pereira should be added to the main article (unknown birth with unclear status) StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I put Bernal Pereira in an unknown birth with unclear status table; it was deleted by another user.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 21:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Any recent media coverage? Star Garnet (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand Spanish, but from this: [11] , with the use of Google translate, it seems he was living on a farm in 2018. StjepanHR (talk) 23:22, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

- Adding to prevent further archiving TheCorriynial (talk) 20:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And again. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 08:08, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

– And again.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 06:39, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Postponing archive Star Garnet (talk) 07:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1935 births

I appreciate it may be a little too soon for this, but I've put together the following list of 1935 births, who will start to be eligible for inclusion in the article within a few months. To make sure I found as many as possible, I went through the articles on heads of state and heads of government for each state in turn. Of course I may nonetheless have missed some, so additions would be welcome. Any sources that can be found that's newer or better is also welcome.

Name State Position Birth Note/sources
Giovanni Lajolo Vatican President of the Governorate (2006–2011) 3 January 1935 Unclear status list
António Ramalho Eanes Portugal President of the Revolutionary Council (1976–1982)
President (1976–1986)		 25 January 1935 [12]
Brian Mullooly Ireland Member of the Presidential Commission during vacancy (1997) 21 February 1935 unclear status list
Artur Rasizade Azerbaijan Prime Minister (1996–2003, 2003–2018) 26 February 1935 [13] Better source if possible is needed.
Mohammed Basindawa Yemen Prime Minister (2011–2014) 4 April 1935
Peter Hollingworth Australia Governor-General (2002–2003) 10 April 1935 [14]
P. J. Patterson Jamaica Prime Minister (1992–2006) [15]
Sharavyn Gungaadorj Mongolian People's Republic Prime Minister (1990) 2 May 1935 Needs a source, article does mention he runs a Agropro, maybe they have chair person list or have been in the news.
Nemesi Marqués Oste Andorra Representative of the Episcopal Co-Prince (1993–2012) 17 May 1935
José Mujica Uruguay President (2010–2015) 20 May 1935 [16] He speaks a lot to press, newer sources could be used.
Léon Kengo wa Dondo Zaire First State Commissioner (1982–1986, 1988–1990);
Prime Minster (1994–1997)		 22 May 1935
Sultan Ali Keshtmand Afghanistan (Democratic Republic of) Prime Minister (1981–1988, 1989–1990) 22 May 1935 [17]
Jim Bolger New Zealand Prime Minister (1990–1997) 31 May 1935 [18]
Lee Hoi-chang South Korea Prime Minister (1993–1994) 2 June 1935 Needs source that mentions him not running for president.
Rodrigo Borja Cevallos Ecuador President (1988–1992) 19 June 1935 [19]
Tenzin Gyatso Tibet Ruler (1950–1959)
Dalai Lama (1937–present)		 6 July 1935 Unclear status list? [20]
Hifikepunye Pohamba Namibia President (2005–2015) 18 August 1935 [21]
Abdou Diouf Senegal Prime Minister (1970–1980)
President (1981–2000)		 7 September 1935 [22] Better source if possible is needed.
Henri Benoit de Coignac [tr] Andorra French Viguier (1982–1984) 3 October 1935
Daniel Williams Grenada Governor-General (1996–2008) 4 November 1935 [23]
Young Vivian Niue Premier (1992–1993, 2002–2008) 12 November 1935 [24] Unclear status list
Mahmoud Abbas Palestine President (2005–present)
Prime Minister (2003)
Chairman PLO (2004–present)		 15 November 1935 Unlclear status list? Member state of the UN. [25]

With the Israel Gaza events, expect sources for him for quite a bit of time.

Stojan Andov Macedonia (Former Yugoslav Republic of) Acting President (1995) 30 November 1935 [26]
Adnan Badran Jordan Prime Minister (2005) 15 December 1935 [27] confirmation needed.
Edward Schreyer Canada Governor General (1979–1984) 21 December 1935 [28]
Salman Saudi Arabia King (2015–present)
Prime Minister (2015–2022)		 31 December 1935 [29], although I assume he has more recent news out there.
Al-Jazuli Daf'allah Sudan Prime Minister (1985–1986) December 1935 Unclear DoB list
Leonel Mário d'Alva São Tomé and Príncipe Acting President (1991) 1935 Unclear DoB list
Mohammed Ali Salim Libya Acting President (2012) 1935 Unclear DoB/status list

2A02:8012:227B:0:DDF6:42C0:DAA6:FD03 (talk) 12:50, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I did some looking up of this as well, and I'll add the few missing I've found. And my list has sources, maybe I'll add them as well. TheCorriynial (talk) 15:57, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for adding sources and Sharavyn Gungaadorj, who I missed. I've removed Sir John Swan though as Bermuda isn't an sovereign state, but a British Overseas Territory. On a similar basis, I looked again at whether Young Vivian of Niue should be included. Political status of the Cook Islands and Niue seems quite clear that the island's status is akin to the Compact of Free Association states. 2A02:8012:227B:0:DDF6:42C0:DAA6:FD03 (talk) 17:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In relation to Mahmoud Abbas, Palestine has been recognised by the UN since 2012, but his tenure goes back before that, so I was unsure precisely what description to use for him and whether/in what way the shift in status should be indicated in the table. That's why I put 'Unclear staus?' with a question mark - I was unclear about his specific title(s) as leader over time.
I was similarly unsure about the Dalai Lama. He will almost certainly be in the 'Unclear status' table, but what to describe him as, and over what time period? I think what I've put in the table is simple and accurate, but it may not be. 2A02:8012:227B:0:8875:5FA5:E124:5FEB (talk) 14:12, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
José Mujica is from Uruguay, not from Paraguay Pindrice (talk) 22:55, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The claim of the Palestinian Territories (the only legal entity that exists under the Oslo Accords) to legal statehood is not recognised by most of the Big Five in the UN (UK, USA, France) and observer status at the UN is not actual membership. Those factors should weigh the most when considering where Abbas should go. 180.150.38.126 (talk) 14:52, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Postponing archive Star Garnet (talk) 07:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Édouard Frank and César Yanes Urías

We're now half a year out from the 10-year mark on the ref for Frank/Franck. There might be some media coverage of his 90th birthday, but I wouldn't count on it. I thought I might have a source from 2017, but it turned out to be a Belgian lawyer of the same name. We could also be in another Fred Degazon situation, where a leader lives out their life abroad rather anonymously, so it would be great if somebody finds something that I missed. For Yanes, how confident are we that his death will be covered by the media? There's this, which pretty reliably puts him alive in April 2021, but even 2+ years is quite a long time for someone who'd be 103, let alone the 5 years we have for a non-social media source. Star Garnet (talk) 17:15, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine Urías, when he turned 100, may have had something, unless he moved or went under press radar for so long. Perhaps its a sign he's died already since 2021? Although, I do wonder if that government source may require doing what the one Burmese PM to find.
Frank maybe its worth waiting for his 90th, but if nothing around then, then may need to be concerned. TheCorriynial (talk) 23:23, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While we're on the subject of Salvadoran junta members, what about Ricardo Falla Cáceres? He's been in the unproven table for a while, and there are three sources suggesting a date of death more than thirty years ago. Is it time to remove him? 217.155.59.206 (talk) 09:29, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ricardo Falla Caceres: I am fine with his removal. I think I even suggested that before (not sure). Other opinions?
StjepanHR (talk) 18:39, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Caceres, according to World Statesmen, is listed as died in 1990, so perhaps we now have some confirmation of other sources? TheCorriynial (talk) 18:15, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the César Yanes Urías tweet, it is from a government account... so id argue that its probably an acceptable to use as a source, which would fix his source quickly. TheCorriynial (talk) 12:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Guillermo Rodríguez Lara

Im confused now. If you look him up, his Spanish wiki doesn't collaborate with other sources. Other sites seem to say he's died either in 1990, 1989, but we have modern sources that have him up to 2020. Is he still living with certainty? TheCorriynial (talk) 14:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The source on this page contains a photo of him talking with the at the time president of Ecuador (2017–2021). I've found a number of photos of him on social media from people meeting him, and I also found this licensed photo of him that clearly states it's him in the photo and that the photo was taken in 2012. https://www.imago-images.com/st/0069293028 I think it's pretty safe to say he's still alive. Emk9 (talk) 19:28, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Right, it was odd some major sites had him listed as having died. TheCorriynial (talk) 19:45, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep an eye out on the Spanish sources, as he's turned 100. I wouldn't be surprised if a government source or some source has something about him being 100.

Laurence Greig

This list is updated when someone on the list dies, and he is still listed: [30]. Would You consider this to be enough for his inclusion? StjepanHR (talk) 17:33, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No objection, at least not a strong one. And in this instance, there's at least evidence he was alive in 2017, although I'm not sure you could prove that it's the same person. Star Garnet (talk) 03:16, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The only additional point I'd make is that Grieg should to be included in the main list as a viceregal representative. We include governors-general, even acting ones, and he fulfilled the same role, albeit the title differs. The articles I added to his entry in the possibilities table back up this interpretation in my view. We also include both pre- and post-1993 representatives in Andorra, whose position seems to be very similar in many ways.217.155.59.206 (talk) 10:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The question is when the Cook Islands achieved sovereign state status. 1965? 1992? Not even today? Some amorphous point in between? For Andorra, that was a few centuries ago, with UN membership not changing much in 1993. It may be that only UN membership will firmly raise the Cook Islands to 'sovereign state' status. Star Garnet (talk) 17:51, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1965 was the date of self-government, and lots of entities are self-governing without being soveign, so not then. It's not relevant anyway because the Queens' Representative wasn't established in that form until 1982. The entry in the list of sovereign states you linked to links in turn to Foreign relations of the Cook Islands, which says that New Zealand stopped acting as signatory of international agreements on behalf of the Cooks in 1988, and that the UN "recognized the full treaty-making capacity of the Cook Islands" in 1992. I'd contend then that the clear-cut answer to the question is the latter year. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 13:49, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, the Cook Islands are not a sovereign state. It's not independent from New Zealand & therefore isn't a separate commonwealth realm. GoodDay (talk) 13:58, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My comment was in reponse to a specific question from another user; I provided an explanation of my point of view on the issue, with links to articles in support (these articles themselves contain citations for the key statements). If a third party is going to interpose themselves, it would be reasonable to expect them to engage with the points I've made, or at the very least contribute something to the discussion. As it is, they have merely made a rather dismissive statement of doubtful relevance (I didn't mention Commonwealth Realms) which appears frankly more than a little rude. I'm starting to wonder why I bother. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 11:56, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How to present Saint Vincent and the Grenadines

Now that the page has been protected & reverted to its status quo. Perhaps 'now', the Mobile/IP editor will bring forward their proposal for making changes to how Saint Vincent and the Grenadines should be presented, in the column of countries. GoodDay (talk) 01:14, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Albert II Source question

Im not totally aware of the Belgian Monarchs and their photos date, but this page for his wife's birthday, but is the photo recent (Near the top)? https://www.tatler.com/gallery/queen-paola-of-belgium-style TheCorriynial (talk) 01:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to Getty it's from July 21, 2023. https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/queen-mathilde-of-belgium-king-philippe-of-belgium-king-news-photo/1560289866

Exact same dates of birth

Rather than start another edit war, here is my rationale for alphabetical by country name rather than by the oldest living state leaders' surname: alphabetical by country name was the consensus (arbitrarily imposed by the list creator?) tie-breaker in the list article List of current state leaders by date of assumption of office‎, that I decided to import into this list article. If this is not the consensus for <underline>this</underline> list article, then can we establish another consensus?– Jwkozak91 (talk) 02:20, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We should follow the tie-breaker criteria of the other related page. GoodDay (talk) 03:26, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is a list of leaders; their country, date of assumption, etc. are secondary details. Alphabetical by name is the most logical tiebreaker to me. Star Garnet (talk) 04:34, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 01:11, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I didn't even consider it would be alphabetical by country. That explains why the 2 visible ties are not in the same order by surname. I think alphabetical by name makes more sense though since that's how most lists of people break ties. Emk9 (talk) 20:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

High Representative

I notice that List of current state leaders by date of assumption of office includes the incumbent High Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina. Looking at the article on the office, inclusion seems to be based on the fact that it's powers are wide-ranging and analogous to a viceroy. On that basis, would we want to include previous occupant Christian Schwarz-Schilling (born 1930) in the unclear status list here?. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 11:12, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, but didn't Bosnia and Herzegovina have its own president? EDIT: I've since looked at Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it does mention the High Representative as in government infobox, above the President, so it would imply high importance or main co-leader. TheCorriynial (talk) 15:44, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I thought their collective presidency was the highest position. GoodDay (talk) 17:35, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would have said the same until I saw it included in the other list article and read a bit more; it seems to have powers over and above the presidency. A unique case certainly. I'm not necessarily suggesting Schwarz-Schilling goes in the main list, but the 'unclear status' one with a footnote. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:18, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do believe we have moved people from unclear to main list when we were sure. TheCorriynial (talk) 00:03, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_oldest_living_state_leaders&oldid=1196500702"