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Generalisation about Palaeolithic societies’ method of organisation
Citation needed for: “Before the creation of towns and cities, established authority did not exist.”
Archeological discoveries from all over the world, especially of nomadic tribes, prove otherwise. 24.86.184.21 (talk) 06:58, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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I suggest revising the intro sentence to replace "skeptical of all justifications for authority" by "skeptical of justifications for hierarchical authority associated with the nation state" to correct a widely held misconception and to be in line with the quoted source (which states just that "it is not government as such that they find objectionable, but the hierarchical forms of government associated with the nation state").
Specifically, anarchy does not seek to have no government or ruler, it seeks to not have a ruling class with potentially different interests to those over which it rules. This reading is specifically supported by the quoted source at the end of the intro sentence [1].— Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.178.202.229 (talk) 19:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: The first part of the sentence seems to summarize the article and not be based on that source. The source says anarchists are against the nation state, not that it is the only form of authority they are skeptical of. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 07:44, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The etymological origin of anarchism is from the Ancient Greek anarkhia (ἀναρχία), meaning "without a ruler", composed of the prefix an- ("without") and the word arkhos ("leader" or "ruler").
Claim: "Humans have lived in societies without formal hierarchies long before the establishment of states, realms, or empires."
I put a citation needed tag on the above claim. From layperson study of anthropology, I don't believe this is generally true. I believe even the earliest hunter-gather societies had anywhere from simple to complex hierarchies that often involved seniority, chiefs, councils, etc. From my recent study of the Shawnees at the time they were driven off the land by the British and U.S., they certainly had a fairly complex hierarchy.--David Tornheim (talk) 05:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After further research, I discovered this sentence morphed from "The timeline of anarchism stretches back to prehistory when people lived in anarchistic societies long before the establishment of formal states, kingdoms or empires." History_of_anarchism#Prehistoric_and_ancient_era says: "Many scholars of anarchism, including anthropologists Harold Barclay and David Graeber, claim that some form of anarchy dates back to prehistory." But that's the view of scholars of anarchism--not necessarily the view of all scholars of anthropology. I don't know if it is even true that "many" scholars of anarchism say this, or just the two that are cited. --David Tornheim (talk) 06:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I interpret the current claim as very weak -- simply that such societies have existed before states formed. Not that they necessarily were the norm. But I do agree that a source is needed. Ornilnas (talk) 13:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A source is not needed in the lede (See WP:LEDE). Someone might dispute the claim made further below, in the main body of the article. Lede has to summarize the main body. I have reverted the tag[1], until a consensus is reached. Cinadon3617:21, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it summarizes the body, it's probably referring to: "Before the creation of towns and cities, established authority did not exist."
This refers to a source with the following quote: "For tens of thousands of years, human beings lived in societies without any formal political institutions or constituted authority. About 6,000 years ago, around the time of the so-called dawn of civilization, the first societies with formal structures of hierarchy, command, control and obedience began to develop."
I guess the key word is "formal"? But then I'm not sure the current sentence gives the right impression. That is, while hierarchies existed, they just weren't "formal", because formalizing things requires states?Ornilnas (talk) 06:13, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I get it, being “formal” is significant. Some anarchists accept non-formal hierarchies. Their objection is with formal hierarchy, that covers every domain. Being the best player in your soccer team, will give you some leadership characteristics that might be interpreted as signs of hierarchy, when playing football. That is acceptable by some anarchists (as I get it).In any case, if the cited RS is misinterpreted, we should phase it rather than add a CN tag in the lede. Cinadon3618:12, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-3 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Not done: The first part of the sentence seems to summarize the article and not be based on that source. The source says anarchists are against the nation state, not that it is the only form of authority they are skeptical of. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 07:44, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
