Talk:Buna (Adriatic Sea)
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Buna
Why would a river that flows in albanian land then forms the border between Albania and Montenegro have the slavic name? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 13:56, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- An editor has repeatedly blanked out the name section and it might require some admin attention to stop it.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- I am wondering the same thing. The name should be Buna. Colonized even in our toponyms in wikipedia. 142.114.118.180 (talk) 03:23, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Requested move 23 February 2024
![]() | It has been proposed in this section that Buna (Adriatic Sea) be renamed and moved to Buna (river). A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. |
Bojana (river) → Buna (river) – Buna/Bojana is a river which flows from northern Albania to the Adriatic Sea. Half of its course is entirely within Albania and in the next half, it forms the border between Albania and Montenegro. Arguments in favor of a move to Buna:
- Per WP:COMMONNAME: Google Scholar:
- Per WP:NCRIVER:
If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name
Buna is entirely within Albania and half of its course forms the border between Albania and Montenegro. The name Buna is used for all sections of the river, while the name Bojana only for part it.
- Per WP:UEGN:
If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local name. If more than one local name exists, follow the procedure explained below under Multiple local names.
The local name for over 98% of communities living along the Buna is Albanian both as an official and as a local name. Bojana is used as the official name in Montenegro, but Ulcinj municipality is an Albanian minority area. As such, both Bojana and Buna are co-official in the section which forms the border with Montenegro.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)- Buna (river) is ambiguous with Buna (Neretva) and should point to Buna (disambiguation)#Rivers. It appears the correct disambiguation per WP:NCRIVER would be Buna (Albania) if this move is done, and your argument for doing so does seem convincing. Pppery (alt) (talk) 19:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support as per the above arguments. – Βατο (talk) 20:01, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support as per points made above. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Quantifying a common name from Google Scholar isn't appropriate as much of the data is skewed. For example, many articles utilize both names within their article title which skews the data. In addition, when you utilise other search terms such as Bojana river Montenegro 1.870, Bojana river Albania 1.480, Buna river Montenegro 1.280 or Buna river Albania 2.040, you get similar values meaning WP:COMMONNAME is redundant. As per WP:NCRIVER, it states that
If everything else is equal, then choose the name for the section of the river closest to the river's mouth, since generally that is where the river is widest
. The mouth of the Bojana is on the Adriatic Sea, close to the island of Ada Bojana. As per WP:COMMONNAME, Ada Bojana 1.500 is a lot more common than it's alternative name Ishulli i Bunës 63. Given the discrepancies, a change would not be beneficial as a clear deciding solution can not be deduced. ElderZamzam (talk) 02:05, 27 February 2024 (UTC)- The name of the small islet is irrelevant because it lies entirely within Montenegro, unlike the river itself which only becomes relevant for Montenegro during its lower course.
If everything else is equal
in NCRIVER refers toIf the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name. If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.
I argued why the second point leads to Buna as the article's title.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- The name of the small islet is irrelevant because it lies entirely within Montenegro, unlike the river itself which only becomes relevant for Montenegro during its lower course.
- Oppose The river is 24 kilometers in Montenegro and its common name is Bojana. It formed the river island of Ada Bojana. The number of results in the search is similar and I think it is quite enough that a note has been added that it is called differently in another country. -- Vux33 (talk) 08:44, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose The most famous river under the name Buna is the one in Bosnia and Herzegovina. If the renaming was done, we would create confusion on many levels. There is no reason to force the name of the ethnic origin of a people, since Bojana is commonly recognized in the Balkans and in Europe, which does not change the selected search range on one of several possible search engines. Ranko Nikolić (talk) 18:47, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Support as per the above arguments. Perhaps a solution as suggested by Ppery would help with clarity.Lezhjani1444 (talk) 22:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. As ElderZamzam notes, we don't use Google Scholar for assessing common names, it isn't really represntative of anything. And given the potential confusion with the Bosnian river, and the mixed bag in terms of usage, I'm just not seeing any sort of case for moving here. This is absolutely fine as is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amakuru (talk • contribs) 18:50, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
- There is no confusion with the river in Bosnia because the Buna (Neretva) is a much shorter river.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support- @Maleschreiber has made a strong case for change. On all sides, whether in Albania or Montenegro, Albanian speaking villages (majority Catholic, a few Muslim) with Albanian identity (as per both the Albanian and Montenegrin censuses) are found along the length of this river - making the case for WP:UEGN. In addition that a large part is in Albania, with Montenegro having a small area on the lower western bank, makes the case for WP:NCRIVER). Some editors posit that there would be confusion with a Bosnian river of the same name. That does not suffice as the Bosnian river is a minor tributary river of the Neretva, whereas this river is a main river of which usage of Buna is widespread, due to it being a major waterway in that part of the Balkans. The google searches that @Maleschreiber has diligently shown back up that point firmly.Resnjari (talk) 01:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose per @ElderZamzam and @Vux33 arguments.
I must add that the statement from @Maleschreiber saying thatBuna is entirely within Albania and half of its course forms the border between Albania and Montenegro
, is self-contradictory: is the Bojana-Buna entirely within Albania or is half of its course shared between Albania and Montenegro? In fact, of its 41 km, 25, or more than half, are located between Albania and Montenegro, which does not make it a river exclusive to Albania.
Furthermore, the Google search carried out by this user to support his claim is biased: the terms Buna and Bojana may refer to something other than the river. By carrying out a more precise Google search on Buna, Bojana and Boyana (English transliteration of the Serbo-Croatian "Bojana"), together with the word "river", to ensure that the results refer to a river and not something else, we get a completely different picture:
- Buna river: 902 results on Google Books, 732 results on Google Scholar, so a total of 1634 results, with a minority of these results corresponding to the Buna river in Bosnia.
- Bojana river: 1640 results on Google Books, 609 results on Google Scholar, so a total of 2249 results, which all refer the the river we are talking about, since there is no other river by that name AFAWK.
- Boyana river: 754 results on Google Books, 46 on Google Scholars, but again, while some of these results refer to a river of the same name in Bulgaria, most of them actually refer to the Bojana.
It is pretty clear from these results that Bojana should remain the name of the article: it is the most common name in English sources, even if we do not include its English translitteration Boyana. Krisitor (talk) 7:54, 4 March 2024 (UTC) - Support per nomination. The argument that 25km of the river is shared by Albania and Montenegro does not violate the argument that the section of the river that uses the name Buna is longer than that that uses Bojana. 16km are in Albania (Buna), 25km is shared (Buna-Bojana). The math is simple. Besides, it's not like Ulcinj (the Montenegrin side of the river) is particularly known for calling the river Bojana in the local language. The majority (72%) of the local population speaks Albanian, plus the side of the river in Albania has a significantly larger population. The local name is a no brainer. The WP:COMMONNAME argument is also strong. Uniacademic (talk) 19:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- For a river that is mostly in Montenegro or its border, it is simply not acceptable to carry the designation Albania in its name. If the river is almost completely in Albania and only passes through another country on the way, then it would make sense. This page, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography mentions Barbana (Bojana) river, not Buna. I don't know which name is older and whether it matters much, but both names are equally common and there is no reason to WP:COMMONNAME goes to one side because they are both common. -- Vux33 (talk) 08:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose This is a very unusual request. A river which is mostly located in Montenegro on within its border should be named in Albanian because of a random Google search and several editors who mostly edit Albania-related themes would like that? No, that would not be good for Wikipedia and it's not per NPOV. Soundwaweserb (talk) 17:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
A river which is mostly located in Montenegro on within its border
- Well, the river is also entirely located within Albania or on the Albanian border. It starts from the Albanian side of Lake Skadar, flows through Albania for about 20km, and the final 24km forms part of the Montenegro/Albania border. All 44km of the river is within/bordering Albania, whilst only 24km of it borders Montenegro.- Similar-ish situation to the Jaguarão/Yaguarón River - starts in Brazil as the Jaguarão, flows through Brazil for a bit, and then the rest of its length (most of the length) is spent as the border between Brazil and Uruguay (and it's known as the Yaguarón in Uruguay) - however, the article title uses the Brazilian name of the river (Jaguarão River), as, ultimately, the entire length of it is in/bordering Brazil (as the Jaguarão), whilst only most of it is bordering Uruguay (as the Yaguarón).
- Granted, I kinda stumbled upon this article via a WP:Rabbit hole, and I honestly have no idea what the WP:COMMONNAME for this river actually is - but I can see that there is a valid argument for renaming this article from the name applicable to most of the length of the river to the name which is applicable for the entire length of the river - and I don't think that rationale violates WP:NPOV. 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talk・edits) 18:37, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- The river has two mouths connecting to the Adriatic Sea, one serving as the Montenegrin-Albanian border and the other entirely within Montenegro's landscape (approximately 5 km). The statement claiming that the river is 'entirely situated within Albania or along the Albanian border' is not accurate. --Azor (talk). 19:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Then again, that could very easily be rephrased as 'the river delta contains the island of Ada Bojana, belonging to Montenegro'- and I doubt that islands count twice towards river length within a specified country. 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talk・edits) 20:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- The river has two mouths connecting to the Adriatic Sea, one serving as the Montenegrin-Albanian border and the other entirely within Montenegro's landscape (approximately 5 km). The statement claiming that the river is 'entirely situated within Albania or along the Albanian border' is not accurate. --Azor (talk). 19:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Granted, I kinda stumbled upon this article via a WP:Rabbit hole, and I honestly have no idea what the WP:COMMONNAME for this river actually is - but I can see that there is a valid argument for renaming this article from the name applicable to most of the length of the river to the name which is applicable for the entire length of the river - and I don't think that rationale violates WP:NPOV. 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talk・edits) 18:37, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose The river's confluence around the island Ada Bojana is divided between the Montenegrin-Albanian border and another segment entirely within Montenegro's borders. Significant cities and densely populated regions, both in terms of local inhabitants and tourism activities, are also primarily centered around the river's confluence around Ada Bojana, an island situated in Montenegro. As mentioned above, the case for changing names, overall, is notably weak, particularly when considering the potential for confusion with the Buna river in Bosnia, which is located approximately just 250 kilometers away from the Bojana River. :--Azor (talk). 18:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- The small river Buna is located in a different country and nowhere in bibliography or in any sources is there any confusion about its location. A distance of 250km between two different locations is not a source of confusion in itself. Such a distance is slightly smaller (~270km) than the distance between the capital of New York (Albany) and Massachusetts (Boston).--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- The comparison includes the distance of two major U.S. cities with two comparatively lesser-known European rivers. The probability of confusion is simply greater when dealing with relatively smaller rivers that might share the same name. Searching for 'Buna River' already yields tourism websites for the Buna River in Bosnia. Overall, it seems impractical given the well-established recognition of the name 'Bojana River,' which has been in use for all many years. --Azor (talk). 07:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- The small river Buna is located in a different country and nowhere in bibliography or in any sources is there any confusion about its location. A distance of 250km between two different locations is not a source of confusion in itself. Such a distance is slightly smaller (~270km) than the distance between the capital of New York (Albany) and Massachusetts (Boston).--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: At least two of the oppose votes have falsely claimed that the river is
mostly located in Montenegro
as their key argument for opposing the RM. During its first 20km the river is located entirely within Albania and during its lower course (24km) it forms the border between Albania and Montenegro. Support/Oppose votes need to be based on wikipedia's policies and reliable sources. Wikipedia is not a democracy and we don't generate consensus via voting, but via discussion based on our policies. If someone (doesn't) agree(s) with the proposal but can't argue about their position based on any policy, then they shouldn't vote because such votes will likely be dismissed by experienced editors who will close the RM.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)- I mentioned that the river is mostly in Montenegro or its border and that is important. Comprasion between South America river is ok, but in this case river must be renamed into Buna (Albania) and that is not ok, because 24 km is part of Montenegro. I don't know would the river be renamed to Jaguarao (Brasil) in case of need. -- Vux33 (talk) 10:58, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- There are other approaches. For example, Buna (Neretva) can be left as-is, whilst this article is renamed to Buna (river) (not 'Buna (Albania)'), with a disambiguation hatnote for Buna (and also Bojana). Or there's the Torne (Finnish and Swedish river) approach. 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talk・edits) 13:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- I mentioned that the river is mostly in Montenegro or its border and that is important. Comprasion between South America river is ok, but in this case river must be renamed into Buna (Albania) and that is not ok, because 24 km is part of Montenegro. I don't know would the river be renamed to Jaguarao (Brasil) in case of need. -- Vux33 (talk) 10:58, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. The OPs search is flawed due to the confusion created by the Buna river in Bosnia. Google Scholar also artificially narrows the search domain. A better search of 21st century sources on Google Books for "Buna River Albania" [1] returns half as many hits as "Bojana River Montenegro" [2]. Khirurg (talk) 16:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Weak Support. Objectively speaking, more of this river is in/on the border of Albania than there is in/on the border of Montenegro, therefore, it makes sense to use the Albanian name, being applicable to more of this river than the Montenegrin name is (44km Albania + border vs 24km Montenegro + border). There also isn't a real conflict with Buna (Neretva) (can disambiguate via Buna anyway). Weak support instead of full support because I'm not sure how to evaluate the WP:COMMONNAME argument. 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talk・edits) 17:04, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- How is there
n[o]t a real conflict with Buna (Neretva)
? If the Albanian/Montenegrin river didn't exist then Buna (Neretva) would be at Buna (river)? Neither river is so much more popular than the other that partial disambiguation is warranted. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:07, 6 March 2024 (UTC)- Well, it appears that Buna (river) was originally a redirect to this article, and arguably there is the precedent of Lys (river) and Lys (Dora Baltea). It appears that some objections were raised to the idea of renaming the article Buna (Albania) due to ~55% of it being on the Montenegrin border, so I figured that the title of Buna (river) would be deemed less unacceptable. That said, there is still the option of doing the same thing as Torne (Finnish and Swedish river) (starts in Sweden, half of it forms the Finnish-Swedish border, and the title disambiguates it from River Torne (England)), along the lines of Buna (Albanian and Montenegrin river), but that might be a bit of a scuffed article name 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talk・edits) 18:53, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- How is there
- Support per nom, especially regarding WP:NCRIVER's guideline, which argues that
if the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name
. Also important is the fact that Buna is the local and native name for 99% of the population living along the river - the Albanians who live along the river on Montenegro’s side do not say “Bojana”. As for the oppose votes, it’s disappointing to see the lack of policy-based arguments and some blatant mistakes. The river is not located "mostly" in Montenegro. It's located in Albania 45% (20 km) and 55% (24 km) is the Albanian-Montenegrin border. The other !oppose argument about Ada Bojana doesn't change WP:NCRIVER's stipulations. Ada Bojana is a very small “island” of only 4.81 km2 in size within Montenegro and functions as a small tourist resort, but its name - which is a matter of official naming in Montenegro - doesn't impact the name of the river itself outside Montenegro. Botushali (talk) 21:08, 6 March 2024 (UTC) - Support The points raised by the nom, such as the fact that the name Buna is the most common in acedemia and that. Also as per WP:NCRIVER as the entire river is in albania whilst only part of it is shared with montenegro. I can not see how Buna in Bosnia can be confused in search results with this Buna(a much longer river). The search string used in the nom does not allow room for such confusion either. The Search is for:"Buna"+"Albania" or "Montenegro" vs. "Bojana"+"Albania" OR "Montenegro". The Bosnian Buna is excluded from them. Durraz0 (talk) 14:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support As per arguments above. Don't want to be repetitive. Also in Google results Buna river is way more popular compared to Bojana.HokutoKen (talk) 15:19, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support per WP:RIVERS#Rivers with multiple names which is very clear about this. While Buna is clearly more common in reliable sources than Bojana, some users disagree with this estimation. However, if there is no common name in English language sources, the guidelines give us no other choice but to name this article "Buna (river)" because Albania is the only country fully traversed by the river, unlike Montenegro. Therefore, the applicable title is "Buna" as used in Albania and locals on both borders.Alltan (talk) 09:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- My comment can be counted as Support, though I would like to note that as per WP:NCRIVER the most suitable name for the article is Buna (Adriatic Sea). Regarding rivers with multiple names, it says that:
The following rules are suggested for choosing a primary name for such a river:
If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name.
If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.
The rationale applied on Vjosa in late 2021 should apply here as well. There is no clear common name in English, as Buna and Bojana are more or less equal, i.e. there is not a clear case that one is considerably more used than the other. Hence the second condition applies. The section of the river that uses the Albanian name is roughly twice longer, because Albanian is official and a local language in all of the rivers' course. Montenegrin on the other hand is official and locally spoken only in the second half of the course - even there the vast majority of the population speaks Albanian as per the Ulcinj Municipality article, and only a minority speaks Montenegrin. WP:NCRIVER allows Buna (river) and precedents are mentioned there and by an editor above. However, per WP:NCRIVER Buna (Adratic Sea) is more suitable. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment It's worth mentioning that an IP user vandalized the page over 24 hours ago, replacing "Bojana" with "Bunë" in the infobox, and that two move supporters replied in the meantime, without daring to revert the change. Krisitor (talk) 14:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Pinging the all editors who have supported "Buna (river)". @Maleschreiber: @Βατο: @AlexBachmann: @Lezhjani1444: @Resnjari: @Uniacademic: @HotMess: @Botushali: @Durraz0: @HokutoKen: @Alltan:. If anyone of you is against Buna (Adriatic Sea), please state your opposition below. Otherwise I assume we all agree to have Buna (Adriatic Sea) instead of Buna (river). Both names are OK, though the former is more suitable per WP:NCRIVER. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:32, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- * Pppery */Pppery (alt), what do you think of Buna (Adriatic Sea)? Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:36, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per WP:NCRIVERS:
A river can be identified uniquely as a tributary of another river, e.g., Rio Puerco (Rio Grande tributary).
(also Churchill River (Atlantic))
If a river with an ambiguous name empties directly into a lake or definable sea, then the name of that body of water could follow in parentheses, e.g., Churchill River (Hudson Bay). - This Buna directly empties into the Adriatic Sea, while Bosnia's Buna is a tributary of the Neretva river. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support Buna (Adriatic Sea) more as per examples provided by Ktrimi991. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support Buna (Adriatic Sea), seems alright to me (and probably won't be as vehemently opposed as Buna (Albania)) 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talk・edits) 22:27, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Ktrimi991's proposal, Buna is the name that should be used as per Wikipedia guidelines, Buna (Adriatic Sea) precisely disambiguates this river from Buna (Neretva) according to WP:NCRIVER, and it definitely solves the concerns of some editors above. – Βατο (talk) 23:07, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Good proposal. HokutoKen (talk) 23:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per WP:NCRIVERS:
- Oppose. As other commenters pointed out, Bojana is currently established name in English language, with significantly more sources using it, and name Buna is not assigned to "significantly longer section", as naming guidelines imply. Ђидо (talk) 18:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support per NCRIVER. Buna is also the only name which is used by all local institutions. I don't see how Bojana is "established internationally" or used by "significantly more sources", because it's clear that neither claim is correct in the search results provided in the RM. Both Buna (river) and Buna (Adriatic Sea) work well for the new name. Nishjan (talk) 20:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Maleschreiber makes a strong ethnogeographic argument here. The river's delta, which splits into two branches, forming the Ada islet, lies within Albania's border. The entirety of the river's course, runs mainly through Albanian-speaking settlements. Kj1595 (talk) 23:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)