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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mr spork32 (talk | contribs) at 04:45, 8 May 2008. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Note: We need to keep this article written from a Neutral Point Of View. An ideal article on this topic should avoid statements which either Israelis or Palestinians would disagree with, unless it is clearly identified which side makes these statements.

Previous discussions may be found here:

To see older commentary that was here look in these archives.

were the jewish population higher in 1914 than i 1922 ??

it isnt even a country, why is there an article, someone show me where palestine is on a map please!!!! according to the figures here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Demographics_in_the_late_Ottoman_and_British_Mandate_periods the jewish pop where 94.000 in 1914 and only 84.000 in 1922. I find that a bit hard to believe. According to Justin McCarthy there were about 59,000 Jews in Palestine in 1914, and 657.000 Muslim Arabs, and 81.000 Christian Arabs.--Ezzex (talk) 16:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This land has always been called 'Palestine'.

Max —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.156.227 (talk) 04:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The name "Palestine" was not used by the Romans before Hadrian (135 BCE). However, this Wikipedia entry talks about a piece of land that has been called so many different things through time and refers to it as 'Palestine'. Palestine in Paleolithic and Neolithic periods (1 mya-5000 BCE), Bronze Age, Iron Age, Hebrew Bible, Persian rule, .. into Classical antiquity where eventually, in 135 BCE Hadrian calls it Palestine. Seems kind of like saying 'Palestine has always been there'. Not true.

The first introduction of this name was by the Romans in 135 AD. After crushing the second Jewish revolt and exiling the Jews from Judea, Jerusalem's name was changed to Aelia Capitolina and Judea ("land of the Jews") was changed to Palestine in order to spite the Jews and in commemoration of their historical arch rivals - the Philistines. The Philistines were part of the sea nations that reaked havoc around the mediteranean in 1200 BCE. They are totally unrelated to Arab Palestinians of modern day or any other Semetic people and are related to Cartage (see Pune wars) and Pheonicians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.118.48.248 (talk) 10:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Still, the name "Palestine" has been the official name for more than twice the time it was called "Judea". The name "Canaan" is still older and used as frequently as "Judea" in historical sources, so it clearly has seniority. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's because Canaan and Judea are not the same thing. Judea does not encompass all of Palestine either. Out of all the terms though, the Land of Israel has been in use for the longest time (together with Canaan, but which was not used in modern times). Amoruso (talk) 04:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Both are historical rather than political terms. "Israel" was not used as a name of the area for 2,000 years, so it still has 1,000 years of catching up to do. As "Palestine" hasn't fallen out of use, it's doubtful if it ever will lose its status as the longest-used name. MeteorMaker (talk) 04:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not used by whom? jews have never stopped calling this area "Eretz Yisrael". The fact that this article is called palestine instead of Eretz Yisrael or at least palestine\Eretz Yisrael, and discusses the non existing "ancient palestine", is an absurd example of political bias. Apollo 11 (talk) 10:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Added back Mark Twain info

I added back info on Twain's account and Christoson's reaction to it. These were apparently deleted inadvertently in a revert war back in November. If we're going to keep Twain's account, we need to put it in context. Thank you, Jgui (talk) 17:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

State recognition

I note that Costa Rica has recognized diplomatically a Palestinian state.[http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958208.html The Associated Press,'Israeli diplomat postpones meeting after Costa Rica recognizes Palestinian state,' Haaretz 26/02/2008 ]

Where does one put this?Nishidani (talk) 10:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose somewhere in Proposals for a Palestinian state. okedem (talk) 14:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name Palestine

When the Romans conquered Judea and dispersed the Jews, they called the land "palestine" after the philistines and in order to distance it from the Jews.99.237.190.52 (talk) 19:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Nanette[reply]

And when the Hebrews conquered Canaan and killed the Canaanites, they called the land "Judea" for exactly the same reason. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong, they did none of this thing. You show your lack of knowledge of history. Judea was created much later and it's only a small part of Canaan. We only know of Canannites from the bible where according to legend, the Israelites conquered the land of Caanan which was their "promised land from God". From archaeological evidence, hundreds of years later, we know that there a Kingdom of Israel and a Kingdom of Judah in what Jews call the Land of Israel. Indeed, the Romans destroyed the Kingdom of Judea (the Kingdom of Israel being destroyed earlier), and renamed the land of Judea to Palestina. This is the origin for the term of Palestine which was used in the world to describe the "Jewish National Home" during the 1800 and 1900's.
Anyway, I restored the previous lead. You'd note that Eretz Yisrael is the official translation of "Palestine", and during the British mandate of Palestine, the Hebrew words were Palestine (EY), where EY stood for Eretz Yisrael. Palestine = Eretz Yisrael until basically 1948 or 1967 by Jews as well. Amoruso (talk) 04:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Translation, hardly, and definitely not etymologically related to the term "Palestine", which is the claim I corrected in the lead. By your own logic (see above), if two place names refer to an area that isn't exactly the same, they are not alternative toponyms. Re the Canaanites, you are wrong when you say we only know them from the Bible. I don't quite understand your objection either, are you saying the Hebrews did not invade Canaan and begun calling the land "Judea"? MeteorMaker (talk) 04:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed they did not. The Tribe of Judah, which you probably refer to, had allocated only 1/12 (not identical ) part of Canaan. We have evidence of people before the Israelites of course, but there is no indication that any NATION ever existed in the Land of Israel except for the Jews, and indeed there isn't. As for Eretz Yisrael, it's not etymological but it's how Jews refered to as Palestine, both as Palestina and Eretz Yisrael. I don't understand your objection to remove this information from the article. Eretz Yisrael - (Hebrew) Land of Israel; (modern) Jewish homeland to be established in the general area of Palestine. In Ottoman Turkish times, Eretz Yisrael and Eretz Hakodesh (the Holy Land) were used to designate the area surrounding Jerusalem and including areas from the Litani river in the north to modern Eilat. Under the British mandate, Eretz Yisrael came to designate the area of the Mandate, which was called in Hebrew - Palestina A"Y - Palestine - Eretz Yisrael. [1] See also Britannica [2] which says: "... Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisrael)..." "Amoruso (talk) 05:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please see this, for the territories of the tribes. okedem (talk) 07:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Amoruso, please realize that there is no difference between the Roman renaming of the area to Palestine and the renaming by the 12 Hebrew tribes (see Okedem's link above) to the various names they began using instead of Canaan, particularly "Judea" and "Israel".
"Please realize"? You don't even know what's Judea and what's Israel. Okedem post meant to educate you on the subject matter. What does this have to do with your blanking of the translation of Palestine in Hebrew like demonstrated to you. Amoruso (talk) 08:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nishidani, Judea and Israel were the kingdoms that came much, much later. (Using the bible as a source) At first the land was called Canaan, and then the Hebrews (or Israelites) returned from Egypt and conquered it from the Canaanites, which were seven or ten peoples. I'm not sure if we can call each one of them "a nation", or if they all belonged to one, Canaanite, nation, but regardless - there was at least one "nation" there. Before and while conquering the land, it was called "Land of the sons of Israel", which later changed into "Land of Israel". When conquering the land, it was divided into 12 territories, for the tribes (see the map I linked). After a few hundred years, at about 1050BC, they united into the United Monarchy (aka Kingdom of Israel), under Saul, David and Solomon. After Solomon's death, at 926BC, the kingdom split in two - the 10 northern tribes formed the Kingdom of Israel (yea, same name...), the two southern formed the Kingdom of Judah. From this point onwards, there's good archeological evidence for the events.
The point of this timeline is - the names Judah and Israel came long after the conquest of the land. Another point is - there were some nations in Canaan before, and during the Israelite kingdoms, like the Philistines - which were long gone by the time the Romans used their name to change Judea province's name to Syria-Palestina (they merged it with the province of Syria), just to anger the Jews. okedem (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just for the record there is no indication that any NATION ever existed in the Land of Israel except for the Jews, and indeed there isn't. This is nonsense, and contradicts the Bible, contemporary Egyptian and Assyrian records, and archeology, apart from playing on the ambiguity of the word 'nation'. It is so profoundly ideological, that one is advised not to even refute the statement. If you come to the text with these absurd prejudices, then you leave other editors little option than that of reverting. Nishidani (talk) 09:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend before you rebegin to hammer away at this point that you read the whole of the preceding archive and esp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Palestine/Archive_8#Eretz_Israel Sect 6,7,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Palestine/Archive_8#Eretz_Yisrael Sect.58 Nishidani (talk) 09:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You seem angry, and I don't know why. Please relax. Do not assume bad faith and do not attack me or other users. It's a historical fact that there wasn't any nation in Palestine (before and after the Romans named it as such) except for the Kingdoms of Israel. Some say that the Kingdom of Jerusalem of the Crusaders was also a nation (but without the population). By nation it means countries as such with people defining this region as their nation, not parts of very large empires. I'm sorry if you find the truth to be an absurd prejudice. Amoruso (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Amoruso, since you seem to have great knowledge about what constitutes a nation, would you say, for instance, David's kingdom was one?
Also, I would like to hear a clear yes or no reply to this question: In your opinion, did the invading Hebrew tribes begin to use a new name for Canaan or didn't they? MeteorMaker (talk) 09:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Amoruso, please read what I wrote above. okedem (talk) 09:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do not want to go through ideologically infused debates. No. I am not at all angry. I am firm. Please do not edit by coming back to a page with a large number of standard propositions that ignore the best historical literature, and expect your fellow editors to waste months recasting exhausted arguments. Please do not write generalizations that reflect a personal synthetic interpretation of complex events. I have not attacked you. I have pointed out that you justify your position by making a remark that is historically nonsensical. I.e. don't play word games with me, saying there was no such nation (while allowing there was a defined region called Palestine existing according to historical accounts from the 11th century onwards, and registered in Greek sources from the 5th century BCE onwards etc.etc). Don't reintroduce the dead argument that Palestine was created by Romans after 135. Don't tell me no nations (ethic units/political units) existed in the region except the Jewish people or those political entities the northern and southern kingdoms, entities with a comparatively short historical life as autonomous units. Don't give me the Bible legends (which however document that Hebron was in Hittite hands, the whole of the coast in Philistine hands, that Amalekites, Kenites, Idumaeans, Canaanites, Egyptians, Samaritans, Jebusites, Perizzites, Calebites, Moabites, Midianites, Hurrians etc.etc thrived in the area. This is an encyclopedia to be written so that all peoples of the world may read it. It is not an exposition of one Jewish narrative. It has to be written, contextually, so that neither a Jewish person nor a Palestinian, Arab or English Christian would take no exception to it. The 'Jewish people' are among other things descendants of Ivrim and all of these variegated peoples, mostly semitic, and were not an exclusive ethnic unit pre-existing history, and intact as such throughout history, having established the only 'legitimate' national realities in that area. This is extremely boring. Nishidani (talk) 09:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
okedem Thanks for your comment. I hardly think we need to recast several years of debate over all issues when a simple edit in which the Hebrew word 'Palestine' glossing the word 'Palestine', is challenged by saying we must add 'Eretz Israel'. This has been extensively debated, and perhaps no side is convinced of the other. I see no point in stirring old controversies over one word. People who will stay with the article will eventually iron this out. I will reply today to your remarks, however. At the moment, my wife is complaining I am neglecting our gardens. That explains the vigour of my reply to Amoruso, whose simplifications will only generate a huge and futile restaging of things no one can agree on. We should improve the article, and leave these things aside until we have a comprehensive NPOV overall text. I hope you can at least see my point on this last matter. regards Nishidani (talk) 09:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
okedem I might engage in a very long point by point argument on some things you wrote, but, friend, we are dealing with the word in the opening section. I am absolutely convinced that what Amoruso argues for is taken by a very large number of people in the Israeli community as self-evident, and therefore that opposition to it is irrational. So, let me put it this way. As a child I was raised always to speak of 'the Holy Land'. No one spoke of 'Palestine'. If I recur to my religious upbringing, absolutely, 'the Holy Land' is the deepest linguistic framework through which I tend to think of the place. In the Christian world, with its millenial and intense attachments to that land (often something ignored here), one spoke in that way, just as Jews spoke of 'Eretz Yisroel'. If one begins to gloss the Hebrew phonetic transcription of this Greek toponym with another Hebrew word, 'eretz yisrael', then a Christian (I am no longer one) could well say, 'I want Palaistina, the word, glossed with 'Holy Land'. Turks or pan-Arabists could ask for their native glosses, etc.etc. You open thereby a can of worms, and endless ethnic challenges. The point Amoruso makes is already made in the text, i.e., that there is an association of long standing between Eretz Yisrael and Palestine. It is made in a section, if I recall, that then mentions the Christian term 'Holy Land'. I hope this clarifies things. Regards Nishidani (talk) 11:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just wanted to set straight some points, mainly when the names Judah and Israel (Israel as opposed to Land of Israel) first appeared in wide use regarding this area; and the point about nations in the area. I actually don't think we should have the name "Eretz Israel" in the brackets in the lead, as it is not a transliteration, but an alternate name for a roughly overlapping territory.
By the way, I think some change needs to be made to the last sentence of the lead: "Today, Palestine can also be used to refer to the State of Palestine, an entity recognized by over 100 countries in the world, whose boundaries have yet to be determined."
I think this is a confusing sentence. If I didn't know any better, what I'd understand from this is that there is such a state, but the borders haven't been finalized yet (like some of Israel's borders haven't been finalized). This is, as we know, untrue. The entity named "State of Palestine" does not comply with the definition of "State" - from our article, "A state is a political association with effective sovereignty over a geographic area". The "State of Palestine" is a political association, but it has no effective sovereignty, or very limited sovereignty (over Gaza and few cities - that keeps changing). This should be somehow clarified. Maybe something like the second paragraph of Proposals for a Palestinian state (State of Palestine redirects there).
Your thoughts? okedem (talk) 12:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This involves a complex legal question. The definition of a state in Wiki is not necessarily authoritative. States can be defined in international law in a way, certainly, that would cast doubt on the notion that a Palestinian state exists. In one sense it doesn't, then, the one we are all familiar with. Hence your point is just. But the complication, as far as I understand it, arises when a state recognizes another area, not formally designated as a state, in terms of statehood. When Costa Rica did recognize Palestine as a state, it was exercising its own legal prerogative, and, in doing so, invests the Palestinian authorities with the diplomatic and technical rights accorded to other states and their representatives. The PLO/PA have de facto diplomatic and consular offices which are accorded the status given to diplomats from traditional, formally constituted states, virtually everywhere. They issue passports, one of the defining functions of a state, that are accepted by other states. Since states result not only from formal definitions, but also from recognition by other states, there seems to be some ambiguity of the kind that warrants the statement made in the text. I'd feel more comfortable with sets of references to the question. I.e. whether what is legally defined as an 'Occupied Territory' from which the Occupier under international law is required to withdraw eventually, can assume functions of a state if the Occupying Power proves reluctant, on whatever grounds, legitimate or otherwise, to withdraw? etc. The short version of my comment is 'I dunno', so I'll await further enlightenment. That Palestine is thus recognized widely seems sourced though, doesn't it?.Nishidani (talk) 14:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've heard about such wide recognition fron numerous sources, so I can only suppose it's correct. But from what I've always known, the one defining characteristic of a state (of sovereignty, if you wish) is a monopoly over the use of force. It's a complex legal situation, for sure; but think about what you'd think, had you read the sentence, not knowing the reality of it. I'd get a very wrong notion, I think, of an actual state, like all those throughout the world, and not the ambiguous semi-autonomous half-nonexistent complex legal entity that it really is. okedem (talk) 15:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One old definition is that a state exists when a central power assumes the prerogative of using force, for which it alone is armed, in exchange for guaranteeing order and measures of the rule of law to the disarmed population it controls. The right to coerce where necessary in exchange for the civil right to peace. In so far as in certain areas self-rule is allowed, and Israel is indeed empowering the PA with weaponry to police those areas negotiated for exclusive PA jurisdiction, the conditions of this kind of statehood do pertain to certain, not all parts, since Israel, the Occupying Power, recognizes the PA, representative of the Occupied People, as an authority with juridical, civil and policing authority. This is one of the fundamentals of a definition of a state, but doesn't apply to all the areas that are Occupied. As you say it is not clear-cut. It is also, geostrategically, mind you, not, in one reading, in Israel's interests to create or allow conditions of statehood, for in any such recognition, Israel loses far more de facto assets than it secures. That is one reason why, given the definition by the IJC that it is an occupied territory, and not under law, Israeli territory, but a territory from which Israel must eventually withdraw (unless Palestinians consent to its alienation), many nations accept Palestinian statehood (as described above) as a partial but de facto reality (in some strong versions of rabbinical thought, Israel is recognized de facto as a state, but not de jure, unless my Altzheimer's is getting the better of me). I personally would prefer to see something like this:-

Today, Palestine is often used to refer to a state, though it has yet to secure full formal statehood, and does yet meet the usual criteria governing the classic definition of a state. Notwithstanding the technical issue, a Palestinian state entity, whose precise boundaries are not yet agreed upon, has gained recognition as a diplomatic reality from over 100 countries in the world'.

.
That's only an off-the-cuff suggestion. The point you make is salient, and I hope other editors chip in on this one, to clarify any possible ambiguities.Nishidani (talk) 16:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cloak & Dagger

The policy of conspiracy of 'Cloak & Dagger' adopted after Balfour to turn the declaration into a fact , is a fact or fiction? If it is a fact, was it replaced by or added to the "with us or not" policy adopted since September 2001? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.71.37.112 (talk) 17:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Palestinian Nakba Omitted from Article?

Good morning, Administrators and Fellow Locked-out Ones.


— The event known to most of the world as "the catastrophe" (to Arabs: "Nakba") should be mentioned at least as early as the '47 partition, including the 1948 Deir Yassin Massacre.

— Also, there is no mention of Zionist-forced expulsion dating back to the early twentieth century. Instead, pseudo-scholars like Howard Sachar and Justin McCarthy are used almost exclusively throughout—including a section on "Arab Immigration to Palestine"(???); while merely a trace of contradictory Palestinian history is included within practically the entire article. This article is not neutral by any stretch: it is state-worship, namely, for the state of Israel.

This is not to say that Sachar, McCarthy, et al., should be outright deleted; but, it would be proper to include references to the mainstream scholars whose analyses differ from theirs. And how many times are pro-Israeli sources cited, like JewishVirtualLibrary and such? This is not scholarship; it is calculated agitprop.

"Historians" like Sachar and McCarthy are known to diminish Palestinian existence and claims to their land, and regularly apologize for Israel and Turkey—especially in relating certain events that are seen as ethnic cleansings by most of the world (e.g., Armenian Genocide, Palestinian Nakba, Deir Yassin, the 1967–present Israeli occupation). Even Israeli historians whose works are known to read as state-apologetics will say the Palestinian catastrophe was not mostly a result of Jordanian and Egyptian authorities telling Palestinian Arabs to flee their homes. A majority of respected historians the world over nominally agree that Zionist terror gangs ("terrorist organizations") drove most Palestinians off their land, beginning many years—even decades—before Deir Yassin and other Nakba-era atrocities. In all, a couple-hundred-thousand (at least) villagers were forced out through Zionist terror throughout the first half of the 20th century.

These are events that even Turkish and Israeli officials have admitted to carrying out: Menachim Begin, for example, did not deny massacres like Deir Yassin, and even detailed the larger strategy of conquest of the West Bank and Gaza as it was carried out by him and other Zionist militants who later became Israeli officials; yet, there is no mention of the Nakba or Deir Yassin in the current article. Shame. Even the trace mentioning of Zionist terror gangs is within the context of attempting to exonerate Israel of wrongdoing.

Wikipedia used to reflect a balance of mainstream, independent, and official accounts in its articles covering Levantine conflicts and histories. What happened?

It should be brought back; otherwise, the whole shabang—the article, the guidelines for editing it, and the page for discussing both—will simply appear as tools for marginalizing accounts that differ from state-approved agitprop.

Respectfully, Blogger4Liberty (talk) 06:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I stopped reading after "Zionist-forced expulsion dating back to the early twentieth century". With false claims like that... okedem (talk) 14:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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