Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums

Scaruffi

A minor debate over at Talk:Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band has led to the fact that Piero Scaruffi's web site is listed here as a suggested/acceptable source. According to the criteria at Wikipedia:SPS, it shouldn't be since:

• Scaruffi's training and area of recognized expertise is not in music;
• His website and books in the area of music are self-published and therefore not citable.

Discussion? Jgm (talk) 01:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

the last few were self-published. the old ones in italian werent. i think his publisher was called Arcana? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.148.170 (talk) 08:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with your observations. That situation is not limited to the Sgt Pepper debate. I have noticed it a few times for other pages with similar circumstances - and similar consensus that the unverifiable sources shouldn't be used. Peter Fleet (talk) 01:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• It seems possible that he has become notable for listmaking itself. Please see the 2006 New York Times article, "The Greatest Web Site of All Time", I think it grants him and his reviews a bit of cred:

"MUSIC magazine editors have few more tried-and-true formulas for boosting newsstand sales and Web traffic than best-of lists. Rolling Stone’s 500 Greatest Albums of All Time; Spin magazine’s 100 Greatest Albums 1985-2005; Pitchforkmedia.com’s Top 100 album lists for the 1970’s, 80’s and 90’s: vast digests of gathered knowledge and opinion, usually the work of teams of editors, journalists and musicians, painstakingly assembled. But their collaborative efforts pale in comparison to the solo work of Piero Scaruffi...

In the cases where there are many reviews available (e.g. Sgt. Pepper, perhaps though currently the article only cites a few reviews), I'd like to leave it up to the editors of a given article to decide if Scaruffi's content is worthy of the album infobox.

Given that he covers a lot of albums that others don't, however, I'm hesitant to say that his reviews aren't fair game. Besides, is there really formal training in music criticism?

I guess I should note that my opinion is one of a few that has been solicited by Jgm, but not in a way that I think violates any policy. I assume I was contacted for one of two reasons: (1) I've participated in similar discussions on this page in the past and/or (2) I've occasionally cited Scaruffi in album articles (usually for somewhat obscure albums). -MrFizyx (talk) 21:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I find his recent addition to music reviews to unacceptable. He seems no more qualified then you or me to have his reviews posted, in fact it seems that any hotheaded critic can write something unfounded about an album and get it posted on just because people at Wikipedia are so desperate for sources. I'm going to get something together to work to have his reviews removed and also to have Robert Christgau reviews removed if no explanation is given because this would not be music journalism in any way, shape or form. See you around. 156.34.179.152 (talk) 02:11, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Please hold your horses. Robert Christgau's relevance has been discussed several time in the past, most lately here and I do not see any consensus whatsoever to remove him. I would not support that – IbLeo (talk) 20:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Neither would I. XGau is notable as a critic with over 40 years experience. Whereas Scaruffi isn't quite of the same calibre, do we do a disservice to our readers by including his reviews? We link to them so readers are quite at liberty to follow those links and decide for themselves whether they agree with his assessments. In fact, they are free to do this for any critic. All we are saying is "X says this". We are not saying that we AGREE with what they say, merely reporting WHAT they say. That's the NPOV way of doing things. And as far as WP:RS goes, in the infobox we are not using Scaruffi as such. We are providing access to a resource. It's slightly different in the body of an article, but even there, we may cite what he says, but we also cite what others say and let the reader decide. Exactly what we should be doing. --Rodhullandemu 20:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Do not remove Christgau. Fantailfan (talk) 20:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Removing Robert Christgau's reviews might be warranted if little or no description is given. If Christgau has a review and we follow the link only to discover there is no description, only a picture of scissors or something, then it really doesn't add to the article. Also Scaruffi isn't a professional music critic and shouldn't be regarded as such. TostitosAreGross (talk) 19:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Foreign language capitalization

Resolved

 – Following consensus, rule for capitalization of foreign language titles has been added to WP:ALBUMCAPS by 5th Eye – IbLeo (talk) 16:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there a rule as to which words should be capitalized in a foreign language song? For example, in Mi Sangre by Juanes, all the songs are always capitalized. But in Nuestro Amor by RBD, the songs are capitalized in the "Track listing" section, but not when you open up the articles for the links to the singles themselves (e.g. Tras De Mí/Tras de mí). -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Usually the MusicBrainz standards are what we use here. The Spanish rule is that only the first word (and proper nouns, etc.) are capitalized. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 00:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I have noticed the same inconsistent capitalization on some Danish language albums (e.g. Efter endnu en dag article name vs. contents) which shows that this is an issue in several languages. The MusicBrainz standards clarifies it completely (thanks), and I would propose to add that as a rule in Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums#Capitalization. – IbLeo (talk) 11:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I fully support it. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 13:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I am quite new to Wikipedia, so I am not sure where to take it from here. We are two people who think this is a good idea, nobody have expressed their opposition. Is that sufficient to go ahead and update Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums#Capitalization? If yes, I would need assistance on this as I don't know how to indicate an external source (i.e. the MusicBrainz standards) as a standard for the project. – IbLeo (talk) 11:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The MusicBrainz approach is not quite applicable to Wikipedia. Our naming conventions implore use to use English, hence we would either apply English language capitalization standards right away, or at least consult reputable English sources on how they handle the respective medium/language (and then choose a format that provides the most consistent results). The style guide of a user-maintained online community does not quite fall into that category, an example for an appropriate source would be The New York Times. One a side note: The MusicBrainz style guide suggests to give preference to an artist's preferred format, which would open a back door for the use of stylized typography, something WP:MOSCL, WP:MOSTM and the current revision of WP:MUSTARD are intended to prevent. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 15:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah... I'm not convinced that WP:UE applies heavily to albums. I have always been encouraged when dealing with this issue to use the "official" (foreign-language) titles for songs and albums, especially since I started a big debate here and found out that I was wrong about wanting to use title caps for that album. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 16:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Not really. Your motion was well grounded in our guidelines, had good support among other editors and reflected every single review and reference used in the article. It does not get much clearer than that. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 08:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

If we apply English language capitalization standards to titles in other languages here (i.e. in the English Wikipedia), then I deduct that we should apply Danish language capitalization standards to all titles in the Danish Wikipedia, German language capitalization standards to all titles in the German Wikipedia, and so on. So Danish band Gasolin's album should be called Efter Endnu en Dag here, Efter endnu en dag in the Danish WP and Efter endnu en Dag in the German WP. Likewise, The Wild, the Innocent & the E Street Shuffle should be The wild, the innocent & the E Street shuffle in the Danish WP and The wild, the innocent & the E Street Shuffle in the German WP. Besides creating total lack of synergy btw. WP's in different languages, it would make language cross-referencing a nightmare. Conclusion: The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me to use the capitalization rules of the original language for an album or song title (or any other title for what it matters). – IbLeo (talk) 12:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That's exactly how I see it, and I think that's a very strong argument. Cyrus, I'm a little disappointed you moved Rossz just now, especially when there's disagreement here about how we should do it; even though you cited the MOS and 'outside sources', the MOS can be changed and outside sources don't have to follow any rules whatsoever, and I don't think they should be used for determining whether we should capitalize things or not. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 12:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Outside sources like Allmusic, Rollingstone or The New York Times have their own internal style guides, in order to achieve a consistent, professional presentation. Our own Manual of Style operates under the same credo but since we don't do any original research here, we are bound to refer to those outside sources not just for content but also on how stuff is formatted in English general purpose publications. Opinions among editors on whether to rely on outside references on a per-case basis or just to get the general practices down may vary (personally, I more often find myself in the latter camp, given that the former again opens up back doors for stylized typography among less publicized subjects), but the notion that established style guides should have no bearing whatsoever on our own is quite unheard of. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 13:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I would use the capitalization found on the original album, since it is a title. I think it should be preserved as published... Unless the Spanish album had a title using English words that used Spanish capitaliztion.... -Freekee (talk) 01:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. On many albums all song titles are written with all letters capitalized for cosmetic reasons (example). I don't think it makes sense to repeat this in the article on that album. Furthermore, there is not necessarily any consistency between the way capitals are used on the cover, booklet and on the disc itself. So which one should take precedence over the others? – IbLeo (talk) 11:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I was talking about how a title is written in its original language, and not the form that it appears on the cover art. I agree with your statement below regarding titling in the Opera Project. -Freekee (talk) 03:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Yea, we def wouldnt want to write it as it appears on the cover, its all about how it looks on the covers. Also, i dont like the music brainz idea, tho it makes sense, we're writing these in english letters (from greek for example) so i think the capitalization rules should follow the english rules unless written in the original alphabet of the album. Grk1011 (talk) 11:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

There recently was a similar discussion on the talk page of the Manual of Style for Japan-related articles, which came to the same conclusion, i.e. capitalizing romanized Japanese titles, save for mid-title particles. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 13:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The Japanese issue is in my opinion a slightly different matter as Japanese is written in a different alphabet. In that case it makes sense to establish a rule for writing transcriptions of Japanese into our roman (latin) alphabet. On the other hand, the MOS for French works of art states: "For consistency of French titles on the English Wikipedia, the general consensus has been to follow the rules used on the French Wikipedia, which are those used by the French National publishing house (l'Imprimerie nationale) and put forth in its Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie nationale." Likewise, the naming conventions for original language opera titles (within WikiProject Opera) is: "When listing operas by their original language title (provided that language uses the Latin alphabet), the spelling in the original language, including any accents and diacritics, should be preserved, (etc.)". So in both cases the rule is to use the capitalization rules of the original language. I would strongly support to adapt it for albums as well (provided the original language is written in the Roman alphabet). – IbLeo (talk) 16:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Is it okay if I add a guideline here stating that the foreign-language capitalization ought to be used? There have been several administrator-approved confirmations of this as the Wikipedia standard recently (specifically, one that I've been keeping track of, the re-moving of Rossz csillag alatt született), and since it is often an issue, I think this ought to have a final word on it placed in the guidelines. Support? = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 06:06, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You have my full support. – IbLeo (talk) 06:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Awesome. Since no one has objected, I'll go ahead and add it in. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 03:15, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Great, thanks. – IbLeo (talk) 16:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

What constitutes a professional review?

I have been removing reviews from infoboxes that come from non-notable review sites. It has come to my attention that policy doesn't really permit this, and I have stopped for the time being. I would like to clarify what is an acceptable review.

Any blog is unacceptable. This is a given, I think. But pretty much anyone can set up a site that's not a blog and get volunteers to contribute reviews. This is my problem with the current policy, which allows "any online or print publication having a (paid or volunteer) editorial and writing staff". I could go register professionalmusicreviews.com (really!) and start putting up wildly biased reviews, but as long as it was not a blog it would seem to be an acceptable source for infobox reviews. Is this really the case?

I would like to propose that preference be given to review sites that are both reliable AND notable. Notable in this context means worthy of an article here on Wikipedia. If no reliable and notable reviews of an album can be found, it would then be acceptable to fall back to reviews that are merely reliable. Thoughts? 66.93.12.46 (talk) 03:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Not having a Wikipedia article doesn't always equal a non-pro review. A review is ok as long as it meets the criteria for reliable sources—not notability, which is a different issue. Some publications are reliable despite not having an article. For example, AllHipHop was deleted but it's a reliable source since it's used by noteworthy publications.[1] If an unprofessional writer started professionalmusicreviews.com and wrote bias reviews, it wouldn't be acceptable because it's a self-published source from an unreliable author. Spellcast (talk) 07:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

There's not really an all-purpose litmus test for reviews. Most of the time an editor with sound judgement can tell when a review source is appropriate or not. Obviously blogs, self-published sources, and most sites with user-submitted reviews (ie. Amazon) aren't appropriate; whereas professional music magazines and websites (Rolling Stone, All Music, Pitchfork, etc.) pretty obviously are. As Spellcast points out, the guiding principle is WP:RS. If the source of the review doesn't appear to be reliable, then go ahead and cut it. If it's questionable, you can bring it up here and we can collectively try to determine whether it's a reliable source or not. That way we'll also be able to add it to the list of review sites on the project page (either as acceptable or unacceptable). --IllaZilla (talk) 07:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Let's try it out in practice: Diorama (album) currently contains a review from Yahoo! Music which is not currently listed as a reliable source (nor the opposite). For me it is not clear what category it falls into. WDYT? – IbLeo (talk) 08:26, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmph. I had a nicely cited reply to this all drafted and lost it. In short, I think it's reliable. Yahoo! is a reputable company, and they claim that their reviewers are music journalists, here. I don't know if I'd make it my "professional review" cite of first resort, though, so I personally would probably not be inclined to add it to either list at the moment. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Based on the link provided by Moonriddengirl, it looks reliable to me. I'd list Yahoo Music as an "acceptable" review site (as opposed to "unacceptable", though based on just that one example I probably wouldn't prefer it as my first resort either). --IllaZilla (talk) 18:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

 Done I have added Yahoo! Music to the list of reliable sources per above.

One point that needs to be made is that blogs by nature are not excluded based upon this group's policy. The language both clearly sates and clearly implies that "personal blogs" are not professional sources--and that makes perfect sense, because in the example given above (professionalmusicreviews.com), that author would not be a reliable source--but it does not ban new media as a bloc. There is a blurred line between old media and new media, and I think it's dangerous to exclude "blogs" as a whole simply because of the term used to describe them. What's the difference between a web publication and a blog? What's the difference between the online section of a newspaper and a blog, if that blog is published by respected persons within the field? Where do we draw that line? If we exclude new media as a whole, what we're really saying is that the only reviews which are worthwhile or "credible" are those which are presented by major, mainstream media. And frankly, I just don't think that always gives a fair or accurate reading of an album's reception. Do we really want to force the reviews contained in infoboxes into such a narrow frame of reference? From the credibility standpoint, I think we have to judge each publication on its own merits, especially when dealing with new media. Countrymusicfan (talk) 11:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

←I don't think it does exclude personal blogs due to the use of the word "or". :) It says "may include only reviews written by professional music journalists or DJs, or' found within any online or print publication having a (paid or volunteer) editorial and writing staff (which excludes personal blogs)" (emphasis added). Given our difference in interpretation, though, I can see that this may not be clear. WP:V says "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." Personal blogs should, I think, be fine in that context. It's on the basis of the former, I imagine, that we accept [2], as Robert Christgau is a professional music journalist. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I would like to propose that Rolling Stone reviews not be included in album articles, as they are not appropriate. While it is certainly a notable source, the quality of their reviews is low enough as to have a negative impact on the reader's understanding of the album article. Many people probably use Wikipedia as a source for finding new music via all the convenient connections it offers, and a Rolling Stone review will generally be extremely detrimental to that goal, misleading the reader. Rolling Stone reviews do not add anything to an album article--they are at best derogatory and at worst detrimental and misleading. --WheatConspiracy (talk) 3:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I oppose this. Rolling Stone is a reputable professional review source, and it is not up to Wikipedia to agree or disagree with their quality. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:02, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

So do I, for the same reasons, and particularly I oppose changing the project guidelines while consensus to do so is lacking. We do not make value judgements about "how good/bad" reviewers are, we present information to our readers and let them decide whether they agree or disagree with the reviewer. That's the WP:NPOV was of doing things, anyhow. --Rodhullandemu 19:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I propose that links to Robert Christgau reviews for Heavy Metal albums be removed. They are complete trash, 2-sentence articles, filled with predujice and disgust for the genre. This is clearly unprofessional. In some cases, a bomb symbol is the 'review'. His review for Black Sabbath's 'Paranoid', widely regarded as a classic, reads: "They do take heavy to undreamt-of extremes, and I suppose I could enjoy them as camp, like a horror movie--the title cut is definitely screamworthy. After all, their audience can't take that Lucifer bit seriously, right? Well, depends on what you mean by serious. Personally, I've always suspected that horror movies catharsized stuff I was too rational to care about in the first place." That is not a review, that is complete rubbish. I quote from his Wikipedia article: "Christgau readily admits to disliking (even "prejudice" against) the musical genres heavy metal, art rock, bluegrass, gospel, Irish folk, and jazz fusion". He is not a reliable or professional review resource for these genres and therefore should be removed. His slander sticks out like a sore thumb. --Marto85 (talk) 15:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

We breach WP:NPOV by removing reviews and reviewers "we don't like". Our job is to provide information and links for the readers. XGau is a professional reviewer, and that satisfies policy here. Let the readers decide whether they agree with his reviews or not; we shouldn't take that choice away from them. --Rodhullandemu 15:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to hear that. I didn't think two lines would constitute a review, or having a prejudice against a genre would make that review a professional one. Sure, I may be biased, but that's why I'm not a professional critic. How does the example I have cited above provide any information for the reader? Not to mention he has criticised the genre's fans. Unprofessional. --Marto85 (talk) 16:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Paradoxically, "professional" here does not imply any quality standard, or even a lack of bias; it just means that they get paid to review albums. This is in distinction to reviews on fansites and blogs which are actually better argued in a lot of cases, but of course can be challenged as inherently biased. The reason we present a range of reviews (up to ten, if I remember the guideline correctly) is to iron out bias in professional reviewers, whose opinions were are supposed to trust. However, you can't please all of the people all of the time, you pays your money & you takes your choice, etc, etc. --Rodhullandemu 16:25, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

In your example review he discusses Sabbath's imagery and themes, the title track "Paranoid", and the impact of the songs and imagery on the audience. He may not word it in as "professional" a way as you might like, and I'm sure it sounds offensive if you're a Sabbath fan, but nonetheless he is a renowned professional music critic and his opinion about the album is useful context for a reader of the encyclopedia. If we excluded reviews by people we didn't like or who weren't fans of the genre in question, then we wouldn't be very neutral. To give a fictitious example, it would be like excluding Roger Ebert's review of Halloween because he hates horror films and gave it a negative review (neither is actually the case; again, this is a fictitious example). --IllaZilla (talk) 16:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough :) --Marto85 (talk) 16:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Template:Cite album-notes

Should a language field be added to this template for cases where the album notes are not written in English? Kariteh (talk) 09:35, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see this being a big problem, it's easy enough to use the format field : {{Cite album-notes| title = [[Wish You Were Here (album)|Wish You Were Here]]|format = booklet, Spanish}} gives Wish You Were Here (Media notes). {{cite AV media notes}}: |format= requires |url= (help) --Rodhullandemu 13:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

If really needed, it wouldn't be hard to add a language parameter, but I agree with Rod that using the format makes sense for the few occasions the language is an issue. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 13:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Kariteh (talk) 16:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Many of the sources I use are in Danish or French, so I would also like a language field to be added. I actually put this idea forward over here a while ago, but I guess it went unnoticed. Of course, it can be done as indicated above. It can also be done in a myriad of other ways, I myself did it like this (note 9). My point is that adding a field to the template provides a standard way of doing it so everyone of us doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. The field already exists in Template:Cite book and Template:Cite web and I would propose to do it along those lines. As the field should be ignored for album notes in English, would it be a problem for anyone if we added it? – IbLeo (talk) 12:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Supported. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 15:19, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:VUE may apply here since we're stepping into non-English source territory. I think that with obvious stuff like lists of personnel, etc. then we don't need to quote anything, but if we're quoting stories told in album notes or a band history from them or something then it may need a quote if it's a non-English source. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I suggest that we handle it by implementing a quote parameter along with the language parameter, as in Template:Cite book and Template:Cite web. WDYT? – IbLeo (talk) 21:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Grand Theft Auto soundtracks

• Grand Theft Auto 2 soundtrack
• Grand Theft Auto III soundtrack
• Grand Theft Auto: Vice City soundtrack
• Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas soundtrack
• Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories soundtrack
• Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories soundtrack

Hi, it's come to my attention that the above articles are tagged as being within the scope of this wikiproject. However, these articles are about the in-game audio content of the respective games, rather than actual albums, so might not be relevant here. Dbam ^Talk/_{Contributions} 18:49, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I wondered about that when I reassessed Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories soundtrack. :) I didn't want to remove the "album" template in case it was an album and the article just didn't clarify. The template should be removed if there's no album connected. I'll go ahead and do that. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I think perhaps the intros to those articles need to be reworded to make it clearer that they are about in-game audio and not soundtrack releases; I'll have a think about that. Meanwhile, you might be interested in The Music of Grand Theft Auto IV, which is an album made up of tracks from the game. Cheers, Dbam ^Talk/_{Contributions} 19:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. That one I've now tagged. :D --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Automated archiving

Resolved

 – Automatic archiving of this talk page put in place by Moonriddengirl & IllaZilla – IbLeo (talk) 21:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Where do we stand on using MiszaBot to archive threads that have been inactive for, say, 45 days? Or maybe even 30 days? And, if we like the idea, do we think that this is the way to do it: {{User:MiszaBot/config |algo = old(30d) |archive = Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums/Archive %(counter)d |counter = 25 |maxarchivesize = 250K }} (I've read User:MiszaBot/Archive HowTo; it looks like that should do it to me.) If nobody dislikes the idea, I'd gladly implement it. :) This page gets a tad bit long sometimes. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 20:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Go for it! --IllaZilla (talk) 20:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Pretty please. Fantailfan (talk) 20:29, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I have implemented. I hope I have implemented correctly. It seems right. :D --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 20:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

And, yet, it has created some very little archives. I'm going to ask somebody who does this kind of stuff why. The maxarchivesize is what was used in the howto example. My userpage archive size is 100K, and it's considerably longer than these. (sigh) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Great idea with automatic archiving, and thanks for implementing it. However, do you mind writing in clear language how it is done: With which intervals does archiving takes place? What is archived? When is a new archive created, etc. Just for clarity. Thanks. Cheers. – IbLeo (talk) 15:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Done, & I added a notice to the top of the page. --IllaZilla (talk) 18:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, very clear. :-) – IbLeo (talk) 21:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Question about capitalization

I remember a few months ago this guideline had said about infinitives: "Do not capitalize...the word to in infinitives shorter than five letters." Here's the link - [3]

Can anyone tell me why the above part about infinitives shorter than five letters was removed? There doesn't seem to be an explanation in the edit history. I'd also like to know if "to" in the song title We're All to Blame should be capitalized or not considering that the infinitive is not shorter than five letters. Thanks in advance for any input. Timmeh! 01:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

That quote you copied doesn't make any sense to begin with. According to standard English rules, infinitives contain "to" and a verb, of which "to" is never capitalized (except if it's the first or last word, of course) and the verb is capitalized (since verbs are always capitalized). "We're All to Blame" should be correct. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 02:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree: "To err is human; to forgive, divine". --Rodhullandemu 21:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Hyphenation of the phrase "number one"

• i have been moving articles of the format "Number-one albums of [year]..." to "Number one albums of [year]..." without the hyphen, but another editor was unsure if the adjectival form was supposed to be hyphenated or not, and now i'm unsure myself. i've fixed (i think...) all the relevant links in the ones i've moved, but i'd like to seek other project members' views on what the right namespacing would be here. Ta in advance! tomasz. 11:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Hmm, looks to me like a compound modifier, which would require a hyphen. Sorry to say so, after all that work you did! Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 13:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Ach, it wasn't a lot of work compared to what it could have been. Glad i checked! i'll undo the previous ones now. tomasz. 14:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Tables for track listings

I've noticed that certain users have been placing tables for track listings. This seems to go against the standard stated in the WP:ALBUMS page and seems to add more work to editing pages. I personally am against the use of tables in this case. Most users wouldn't know how/care to go to the effort of placing the tables on new pages and the current format is clean and looks nice. Can we come to a concensus on whether tables are necessary so track listings and such? Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 16:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• In my experience and discussions with other editors, don't use tables ever. For tracklists with little extra info, use the basic bulleted-list style; otherwise, hit up Template:Tracklist. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 16:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I disagree- I think (transparent) tables look great for track listings some of the time. I use them when there is a lot of info I want to add, or as a convenient way to cite sources. For a few examples of when I think it is used well, see Dungeons & Dragons (a featured article) or The Whorse's Mouth. However, I do feel that they are not always appropriate, and prefer using the standard track listings are best most of the time. As such, I oppose a proposal to force one type of listing or the other. J Milburn (talk) 16:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

A standard should be accepted. It is a little confusing to see one page by an artist with a table (Machina II/The Friends & Enemies of Modern Music) while another uses what's stated on the WP:ALBUMS page (Siamese Dream). Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 16:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I think using the template is overkill for some pages, while a bulleted list can't contain as much info as it needs. A single standard shouldn't be put in place. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 16:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) While I'm not big on IAR, I think there are always going to be exceptions. I have myself used tables twice in tracklists (that I recall). One of these was a very early effort for me. I might handle it differently now. With the other one, I still think the table works. Lacking special circumstances, though, I'm inclined to agree that the simple list format is clean and efficient and that standardized handling is appropriate. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why people are still using tables when Template:Tracklist does the job much, much better. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 17:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Why is there a double standard? Template:Tracklist states to use tables, while WP:ALBUMS doesn't. Which one should be used? Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 17:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• In my case, I don't know that the template was around when I used tables. Even if it was, though, I generally shy away from complex templates. The album infobox template is a nice, straightforward cut & paste. The tracklist template looks daunting. Reading through the page, it seems that you can get a nice, straightforward cut & paste down under the presets, but I don't know if I would think to look down there under ordinary circumstances. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm in agreement regarding the track list template. I have been quite confused has to why they've been popping up on random pages, and I'm trying to find a way to end/prevent edit wars from taking place in regards to this. I'm a fan of the standard approch, as Moonriddengirl stated, the album infobox is nice and straightforward. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 17:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

←Just to note that WP:ALBUM actually does say to use tables in some circumstances: " Using a table is recommended in more complicated situations (see Before These Crowded Streets for example). If a table is used, it should be formatted using class="wikitable", using column headings "#", "Title" and "Length" for the track number, the track title and the track length, respectively." --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

That may be the case, but these things are popping up all over the place: Metallica, Load, ReLoad, Adrenalize, the aforementioned Machina II, Hypnotize etc. Is all this really necessary? Seems like overkill to me. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 18:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, those are something different. The template is not a wikitable. This is a wikitable. It may be a good idea to decide whether the WP:ALBUM guidelines should be altered to specifically address the template or not, since the guideline currently suggests a different approach, and if the template is acceptable by community consensus, then it should be referenced in some way in the guideline. Though these guidelines are only a suggestion, I agree that addressing it can help to avoid edit wars, since contributors may seek to standardize. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I stand by my earlier suggestion to keep such things strictly non-mandatory, but possible – if there are editors who want to go through the effort of updating regular track listings with the template ones, let them. Every other large (music) database on the web uses tables by now, so there might just be something to them. Oh, while we're at it: If I remember correctly, some people here asked for {{tracklist}} to include a customizable column to note per-track producers, remixers and such. Well, it does that now. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 18:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

What about editors who want to go through the effort of standardizing template track listings to the regular ones? I believe that's the concern that brings Darwin's Bulldog here, if I'm not misreading. He seems to feel that edit wars may follow if contributors attempt to bring articles into accord with guidelines as they are written. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I like the template a lot, but it just takes a while to input the data so I usually end up using the numbered list instead. Grk1011 (talk) 18:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The numbered list, the time-honored tradition of most album articles, is what I've used for quite some time, as it works with reasonable success giving just track number, title, and track length. Issues with this template, however, did begin to arise when I'd come across track titles that were much longer than the majority of other tracks, leaving unaesthetic row-length variance. The {{tl|tracklist} template has been been my exclusive choice for my original articles, and I have also been one of the editors working to expand the use of this template. I've used it in in-article occurrences, such as the Cloverfield sampler, as well as in album articles, in order to keep a flow for readers.

While the template may seem a bit daunting, it's quite easy to get used to, and the presets are a breeze to fill out. Even if an editor is uncomfortable using the template, they can continue to use the numbered list, and the article may be revisited by other editors who are more accustomed to the template, or the article will remain a numbered list, still acceptable under all policies. I still hold the position that it should be supported, but not mandatory, and when there is conflict, might I suggest the fantastic Wikipedia "talk page" function? --Jacob ^Talk 20:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Why, look; we seem to be using one now. :) It seems like a good place to discuss the matter and determine whether some mention of this template should be made in the guidelines. Wasn't one of the points of projects so that we can centralize styleguide issues rather than hashing it out in multiple article talk pages? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 20:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a fantastic discussion, but I think it would be a bit counterproductive to bring up a clone of this discussion on the Albums talk page each time a single article causes issues with the template. The discussion of this template usually breaks down to the same points, the template gets some improvements, and the "prosecution", so to speak, moves on to other, recent issues. It would just be nice to deal with some implementations of this template on an article-to-article basis. --Jacob ^Talk 20:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Isn't the whole point to standardize how pages are formated? We could arguably make an exception for most pages under that logic. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 21:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

←As I understand it, the question here is whether the template should be supported by the project. (I misunderstood, I think, at first; I believe it is the use of the template and not of tables that is being brought into question when Darwin's Bulldog asked, "Can we come to a concensus on whether tables are necessary so track listings and such?" Given subsequent conversation, that seems to be the point.) Currently, at least so far as the styleguide, it isn't. I don't have strong feelings about the template. I could probably learn to use it if I had to, but I'm equally happy to continue with the list. (My only big concern is in implementation; Fixed (EP) acknowledges remixers, but gives no credit to primary composer, which detail is necessary in album articles. But I've done plenty enough album article reviews to know that people often don't list composer in "lists" either. This is a user issue; not a template issue.) It does seem to be a good question to settle, to me. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 21:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as that EP goes, the remixers can now go in a custom field, I would be happy to implement that, and I think the songs original composers should be included if they can be found. I would say that being missing data has no affect on the template itself. It's a simple bit of missing data. Maybe I don't fully understand your statement though, I wasn't exactly certain on what the issue is (my fault though). --Jacob ^Talk 21:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The issue is implementation, as I said--user fault; not the fault of the template. Though I wonder if it would help in the documentation of the template to remind users that track lists should include track length and composer information. The songs' original composer is easily enough found. I was going to say at Broken_(Nine_Inch_Nails_EP)#Music, but that's wrong, too. With a list tracklist, I could easily correct that misinformation to accord with the actual writing credits at AMG. As it stands, I guess, the template needs to be refigured in order for that information to be corrected...and maybe that is a problem with the template. I could have repaired that in 30 seconds in a list. Trent Reznor gets full writing credits for Fixed, here. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The information at "Broken", at least, is corrected, albeit old-school style. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The way Fixed was represented in those examples just stems from the approach I usually take (and see being taken) towards the likes of remix, live and compilation albums – "secondary releases" so to speak, given that they usually consist of previously released songs and in-depth information, such as songwriting credits will most likely already be covered by articles about the respective studio albums. Regarding the template, you could of course add the Writer(s) column (or in this case all_writing = Trent Reznor). For now, I will just replace the Fixed example with a cover album by Def Leppard, with separate columns for songwriting and original artist (the latter using that new option).

Regarding guidelines and their purpose to help standardizing articles, I'd say it's a dynamic process. We have very few rules that are set in stone – core content policies like verifiability and neutrality, our behavioral guidelines – everything else remains open to change and should generally aim to reflect and address what happens "down in the trenches" rather than being top-down prescriptive, lest (in a worst case scenario) a few editors who happen to frequent guideline talk pages end up deciding how hundreds of unaware/casual/diversely interested editors have to do their job. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 22:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Well talks like this should start somewhere, and talk pages seem to be appropriately named for issues such as this. These discussions serve as a point-of-reference for the unenlightened souls who don't frequent such pages, so that they have a point of reference to changes/discussions that occur. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 22:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly, just wanted to point out the risk of turning a guideline into an end in itself, by applying and shaping it in a non-reflective fashion. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 22:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Foreign title translation

Hello, I would like some input as to how translations of foreign-titled songs should be handled within an album-aritcle's body. I would assume that some definite reliable, third-party citation would be the minimum, especially in the case of Japanese titles. Is there any pre-existing policy on title translation (something that can be applied to songs as well)? Thanks for any help! --Jacob ^Talk 03:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The format I used for the singles list in my test translation of ja:麗美 (see User:B.C.Schmerker/Article Prototype3#Singles) uses literal translations from the Kanji, which work well enough, provided that there exist no conflicting English language name from the record label of origin. As I understand current policy this Project, the Transliteration of the original Japanese language name is used italicized, in quotation marks, as Parameter 1 of Template:Nihongo; the original name as Parameter 2; I used a literal translation as Parameter 4 where applicable, with the final syntax (Example: the 1988 Sixty single "Tokai no Safari Pāku") being:

{{Nihongo|'':Tokai no Safari Pāku"''|都会のサファリパーク||"City Safari Park"}}

Should no policy consistent with this approach, or a documented variant hereof, yet exist, recommend work with WPJapan to develop one consistent with other provisions of current Wikipedia^® policy and upsub necessary amendments, if any, for the appropriate page in the Manual of Style. B. C. Schmerker (talk) 05:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: For Albums, no quotation marks on the Album title in Template:Nihongo (see User:B.C.Schmerker/Article Prototype3#Albums), an example being, for Kotoba no nai Yūjō:

{{Nihongo|Kotoba no nai Yūjō|言葉のない友情||"The friendship which does not have word"}}

Same recommendations as above. B. C. Schmerker (talk) 05:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply! My issue however goes beyond formatting, as I've been using the nihongo template for quite some time. My problem is just in when a translation is appropriate, whether the translation needs to be sourced (especially for complex titles, involving more than character-for-character translation), and if translations are to be included in every instance of foreign titling, or only when it is notable (pertaining to lyrical subject matter, having impact on success or controversy, etc.). The problem I'm currently dealing with is a user adding incorrectly formatted titles (never correctly utilizing existing templates or layouts) without any citation, many of which are mere rough translations, often just standard propagation by fan sites. --Jacob ^Talk 17:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Good point—sourcing IS an issue (I defer to the label of origin when an official translation already exists), and a procedure for accurate translation is in the scope of other Projects and, to my knowledge, not tracked by this Project (viz., WPAlbums). Recommend you run this issue by WPJapan (Target Page: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan), as album- and song-title translation is in its scope. B. C. Schmerker (talk) 05:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Multiple albums on one page?

This came up while discussing whether to merge List of Madlax albums with the main Madlax article. It was pointed out that discographies do not contain track listings. Yet the discographies seem geared more towards artists and there is no official MOS. I looked at this project and it seems like there should be one album per article. But Discography of Final Fantasy V is rated as a GA and has more than one album in it. So is there an actual rule? It seems that for music from Anime (and probably some other sources such as video games) that we would normally be better served with one article listing all of the albums and singles. That is, follow the album MOS but put all of the albums in one article. Anyway, I'd appreciate some feedback and/or guidance on this. Thanks! Argel1200 (talk) 19:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

IMO there are lots of circumstances where several albums can be combined into a single article. For example, where they are part of a series and the individual albums are not really notable in and of themselves, but the series has received attention from outside sources and there is an encyclopedic story to tell about it. For example NOFX's 7" of the Month Club. It could probably also be a good format for series like the Warped Tour compilations or parts of the NOW series, as there's not much to say about them individually other than an infobox & tracklist. Some discographies do contain track listings, BtW. I don't think there's really a widely consistent standard for discography articles; I've seen lots of different types. The Discographies Wikiproject might be a good source of info on discography formats, as they have a lot of articles in their scope which are Featured Lists (most of them don't appear to have track listings). I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with having multiple albums in a single article, though that doesn't seem to be the trend. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I know that Romeo + Juliet (soundtrack) has the track listings for two different soundtracks. Including multiple albums depends on the nature of the article. For video games or films with multiple soundtracks released, it is generally more suitable to list them all together—unless one of the releases has established notoriety somehow above and beyond a typical soundtrack. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses!!! Do you think using cover art in this type of article (lets say there are four albums) would be breaking Wikipedia policy? Again, thanks for the feedback! Argel1200 (talk) 03:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so, as album covers are explicitly allowed to be used in articles about the album (as long as there is critical commentary w/ references and it's not merely an infobox & tracklist). I think that provision would cover an article on several albums combined. --IllaZilla (talk) 03:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but album covers are prohibited in discography articles (and in fact discouraged in any kind of list). Well, at least that's what the editors at Wikipedia:Non-free content are trying to enforce. The issue might be a bit controversial though. Kariteh (talk) 08:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

←According to Wikipedia:Non-free_content#Multimedia:The use of non-free media (whether images, audio or video clips) in galleries, discographies, and navigational and user-interface elements generally fails the test for significance (criterion #8). (my stress) And criteria #8 says: Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. I think the album covers are okay in the case of an article such as Discography of Final Fantasy V where the individual albums don't have their own articles as there isn't enough information to go beyond a stub. If there were separate articles then I would agree they would fail fair use, but in this circumstance it looks okay as they increase a reader's understanding by indentifying the albums being discussed at that point. --JD554 (talk) 11:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's one of the interpretations possible. Kariteh (talk) 12:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I've worked multi-album articles before, including Discography of Final Fantasy VII (previously located at Music of Final Fantasy VII, which I think suited the article's scope better, but apparently I missed a discussion on that). I'd say covers still serve their fair-use-covered purpose of identification in that context, though there was one particular case were a series of as many as 27 closely related albums (Legs and Boots) shared only four distinct cover motives – naturally there was no merit in including all 27. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 14:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding "album covers are prohibited in discography articles", in my opinion the WP:Discog MOS only applies to artists and bands and thus does not apply to other types of discographies at this time. I mentioned this here, on the discussion page for that MOS. Just the fact that it repeatedly refers to "artist" alone is enough to show that. And others have raised e.g. questions on track listings on discog pages, etc. That MOS needs more time to mature and until then I think editors should not try and apply it to or force it on other types of discographies. Argel1200 (talk) 15:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:NFC has most of the relevant guidelines here, I think. Under Acceptable use it lists: "Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)." Under Unacceptable use we have: "The use of non-free media (whether images, audio or video clips) in galleries, discographies, and navigational and user-interface elements generally fails the test for significance (criterion #8)" and "An album cover as part of a discography, as per the above." So this tells me that if the article has some critical commentary (ie. an encyclopedic treatment of the album(s) in question beyond just an infobox & tracklist) then this criteria has been met. A discography article, which usually only has these minimal details and does not include critical commentary, does not meet these criteria and using album covers in that article would be excessive. However, it should be OK in an article covering a few albums, with critical commentary provided, to use the cover art of those albums (say, a series of 3 or 4 albums all being discussed in the same article). --IllaZilla (talk) 16:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you and I completely agree, including the implied part about a small number of albums. Argel1200 (talk) 17:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Redirect class "articles" and the related category

Howdy. An article tagged with this project's template was recently changed to a redirect. I noticed this while adding a template to the talk page of it. I also changed the class to Redirect. The redirect category created by the template is a red link (shown here). I wasn't sure if it was a big deal or not to the project.--Rockfang (talk) 16:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard of a "redirect" class. :) I don't see Category:Redirect-Class Book articles or Category:Redirect-Class biography articles. I'm inclined to neutralize project tags when the article becomes a redirect and no longer qualifies, usually by placing "tl" in front of the word: {{album}}. It can easily enough be restored if the article is. Don't know if that's standard practice, though. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

At first, I had never heard of it either, but then I got to thinking. If the article is a redirect, then it is no longer a stub. So I figured I'd fix it. When the template adjusted to the "Redirect" class by making importance N/A I figured all was well. With my bot dealing with Prods now, and some of them ending in redirects, I can null out the talk page templates instead of changing them to redirect class if the project wants me to?--Rockfang (talk) 16:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, class is an assessment of the quality of the contents. "Redirect" isn't about the quality. It isn't listed at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment, to be sure. :) Nulling out, as I said, is what I do--I don't know if others go for that or not. I'm inclined to think that when it's a redirect, it's no longer an "album page." Some redirects may be useful to the project, if they can be turned into album articles. Others, such as redirects from variant titles, never will. If it's viewed as an album page still, I think it would have to be a stub, as it certainly doesn't have the qualities for a higher grade. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

That said, I've just noticed that we do have a heavily populated "Category:List-Class Album articles." Maybe Category:Redirect-Class Album articles would be appropriate in a similar spirit? Again, though, I wouldn't add it if it's not an {{R with possibilities}}. Other thoughts? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:58, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Media franchises

Dear WikiProject Albums participants...WikiProject Media franchises needs some help from other projects which are similar. Media franchises scope deals primarily with the coordination of articles within the hundreds if not thousands of media franchises which exist. Sometimes a franchise might just need color coordination of the various templates used; it could mean creating an article for the franchise as a jump off point for the children of it; or the creation of a new templating system for media franchise articles. The project primarily focuses on those media franchises which are multimedia as not to step on the toes of this one. It would be great if some of this project's participants would come over and help us get back on solid footing. Please come and take a look at the project and see if you wish to lend a hand. Thank you. - LA (T) 21:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Tracklisting

Hi WP:Albums! I was working on the album page for Taking Tiger Mountain (By Strategy), and my edit of changing the album's tracklisting to the below was reverted.

All tracks are written by Brian Eno, except where noted

No.	Title	Length
1.	"Burning Airlines Give You So Much More"	3:18
2.	"Back in Judy's Jungle"	5:16
3.	"The Fat Lady of Limbourg"	5:03
4.	"Mother Whale Eyeless"	5:45
5.	"The Great Pretender"	5:11
6.	"Third Uncle" (Eno, arr. Brian Turrington)	4:48
7.	"Put a Straw Under Baby"	3:25
8.	"The True Wheel" (Eno, Phil Manzanera)	5:11
9.	"China My China"	4:44
10.	"Taking Tiger Mountain"	5:32

Track listing note: On the original LP album release, side one was comprised of tracks 1-5; side two, of tracks 6-10.

I like this style of tracklisting, even though the instructions on the main page suggest against it. Is this an acceptable style? Or should I stick to the old format. Cheers! Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC) Nevermind. I realized this is already being discussed. D'oh! Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a member of this project. I like your style better overall. I suggest using the "headline" parameter as shown in the Beatles example here. I suggesting that it isn't collapsed though.--Rockfang (talk) 03:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I think i'll do that for now. Thanks for replying even after i've vetoed myself there. I guess someone else can revert if it's really that ghastly of a problem. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The conversation faded out above, which isn't surprising. :) If it had been followed through to make note one way or the other in the guideline, it would be less likely to come up as an issue. I did discover one problem with the table template, though, in that it may discourage correction of misinformation. To retain the template formerly used at Broken, I would have had to add a new parameter for composer. Your average user may find the list format a whole lot simpler to edit, as this. The guidelines at "When to use tables" rather nebulously discourages using tables for long lists for that reason (no id on what makes a "long list"). I still really think that we should come to some group conclusion on this. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think the guidelines should be along the lines of if it's more complicated than track #; track title; track written by; track length (eg, 1 "Song" (Author) – 4:44); then we should use the template but just standard formatting for that and less. --JD554 (talk) 13:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I think they work out generally. It's really on the line of using your best judgment what looks better. I used it once on the version for the article for Dopesmoker and realized it looked plain awful! Not enough tracks. But with the album I worked on, I think it's fine and non-confusing. What does the rest of WP:Albums think? Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Also I'd like to make a point that someone mentioned with "WP:LISTS#Tables", that if tables are useful if you have to have more then three columns of information. I think that makes sense in my case as well as others. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:55, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

That's a valid point Moonriddengirl, though of course this would not be the first template to present such intricacies. For example, the coauthors field in {{cite web}} (and other citation templates) might be required to resolve a similar scenario but as long as the given instance of the template only uses the last and first fields, users may have to resort to other in-use examples of the template or its manual guidance. That is probably the price for being able to arrange similar heaps of data in a consistent fashion and as other editors have pointed out on Template talk:Tracklist, the template in turn reduces the scope for error by automatically applying/deprecating certain conventions of the project, e.g. putting quotes around titles and using specifically an en dash before track lengths. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 17:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

My 2¢ from the trenches: I appreciate the effort that went into creating the template and the desire to make entries more attractive, but I generally don't like it and think numbered lists should be retained as the standard, except where extensive information is involved (such as on compilation or retrospective albums). The template unnecessarily complicates editing, making corrections of misinformation more difficult for the average user, as Moonriddengirl suggests, with little or no improvement in the overall display of information. It's also often inconsistent with "WP:LISTS#Tables", since most albums have only two -- not three -- regular columns of info: song title and track length. The numbering column doesn't really counts as information. (BTW, to the extent that numbering might be considered "information", the template displays it inaccurately. The tracks on the 2nd side of an LP shouldn't be numbered as a continuation of numbering from the first side, as the template does, but as starting again at track #1.) The template's column headings ("#/Title/Length") are completely unnecessary and in fact clutter the display of real information (like album sides). Also, the small font for songwriting credits is hard to read and appears inconsistent with guidelines. Nice effort, but I think it increases complexity for very little in return. Numbered lists do the job better. Cloonmore (talk) 14:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

That's why I think it should only be applied to things like the above. It's not needed when all songs are really by "Lennon/McCartney" but it's useful in other things like Ultraglide in Black by the Dirtbombs. I honestly don't think it's any more complicated. Often when I was making track lists when i started I kept doing things like missing the correct dash when using track listing, or finding it weird to quote songwriters for specific songs. This makes it easier for me. It's no more confusing then the infobox standardizing with things like "studio" or "compliation" or "remix album". Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

"The tracks on the 2nd side of an LP shouldn't be numbered as a continuation of numbering from the first side, as the template does, but as starting again at track #1."

I'm not sure to which particular track listing you are referring to (the one for Taking Tiger Mountain (By Strategy) maybe?) but this is not an issue related to the template, as many numbered lists use that ongoing numbering when it comes to LP releases (using the <li value=x> tag) and apparently this layout was merely carried over. Also, the column headings correspond to those suggested by WP:ALBUMS for table-based lists. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 00:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Taking Tiger Mountain (By Strategy) is one good example of the template adding nothing beneficial. The numbered list previously used in that article was consistent with WP:ALBUMS and had the additional advantages over the template of correctly enumerating each side's songs, eliminating the unnecessary "#/Title/Length" headings, and using ordinary size font for the credits. Cloonmore (talk) 13:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"the additional advantages over the template of correctly enumerating each side's songs"

Again, this has nothing to do with the template and is entirely a matter of implementation. For your own benefit and that of this discussion, please do not make it unnecessarily hard to consider your argument conclusive. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 22:58, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting tired of this discussion. Okay, the points con seem to be (1) it's ugly, and (2) it's more complicated. The points pro seem to be (1) it looks better because of consistency, (2) the articles are improved due to consistency, and (3) it's not more complicated. Did I miss anything? -Freekee (talk) 15:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

That's about the long and short of it, except that you forgot one con: "(3) it's inconsistent" (given the note about lists vs. tables at Wikipedia:List#Tables and the varying demands for amount of info in tracklists). :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Professional reviews

An IP editor recently added "The Music Magazine" to the Professional Reviews section, here. I've removed it until we can figure out if it qualifies. Looking at the magazine's website, here, it seems to be a commercial website that tried briefly existing as an online .pdf magazine. The article on The Music Magazine is PRODded and so may not be available for reference much longer. The website placed #185 out of 200 in the People's Choice section of the BT Digital Music Awards, here. Evidently the magazine is run by Scott Goodacre, who is a journalism student.

Technically, the website seems to meet the criterion: "found within any online or print publication having a (paid or volunteer) editorial and writing staff (which excludes personal blogs)." But the criteria also note that it should meet WP:RS. Is this a "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"? I'm thinking it may not be there yet. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Billy Idol - Cyberpunk

I've pushed the article for Cyberpunk (album) about as far as I can. Being inexperienced with album articles, I'm not sure how well this stacks up and don't really have the energy or information to add much more. If anyone wants to take control of it and drive it towards GA or an FA nomination, now would be the time. Good luck. --Cast (talk) 22:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I cannot drive it further, too, but wow, that is a real load of work you did there. I applaud you! So#Why ^{review me!} 22:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your words. Can you believe I'm not even a fan of the album? I just find the story behind its conception interesting. I can't help but pity Idol a bit. He was so ambitious. I can imagine him being just a few steps away from the lecture circuit at early 90's tech-conferences, and yet he didn't know how to type. Anyway, if there's nothing much more you can think to add, do you suppose I should just take it to the GA nomination page? --Cast (talk) 23:29, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Forget it. Don't know why I'm bothering to second guess myself. It's now nominated for GA status.--Cast (talk) 23:37, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It does look great in my eyes and as far as I can judge from a quick view, it does fulfill the GA criteria. But of course others might think otherwise, so you might want to wait for another opinion. My comment is: Go ahead and nominate it, the good people at the GA review will surely point out any flaws with the article and maybe you can fix them if they are minor. And even if it fails, it's no biggie. But some people find such things happening demoralizing, so as it's mostly your work, you have to decide that for yourself I guess (but of course someone else might read this and add a nomination themselves^^). Keep up the good work anyway! (Now I typed such a long reply and you decided yourself. Good luck!) So#Why ^{review me!} 23:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I second that good luck. Well done! --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know a good source for old album reviews? I am having trouble turning up any for the Cyberpunk album online, which is my primary source for these things, as I don't have immediate access to music journals or magazines of the era. As the article stands, it could achieve GA status, but FA status probably won't happen until I can expand the "Critical reception" section. This was the last studio album by Billy Idol in the 90s, and considered by many to be his greatest flop, so omissions in a section on the reviews the album received would be a rather large and noticeable void. --Cast (talk) 16:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

tracklisting style for listing artists on a compilation?

There is no guidance for listing artists in a compilation where the name is different for every song in a tracklisting. How should this be done? Are there examples? --Melty girl 22:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

What kind of compilation are we looking at, soundtrack maybe? I just did some formatting work on Cloverfield#Music and sound and Spider-Man 3: The Official Soundtrack, which show one possible approach. Hope that helps. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 23:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I've always been more of the "artist first, then song title" preference myself, as I own dozens of compilation albums and this is the format that most of them use. Warped Tour 2008 Tour Compilation would be an example. I think it makes sense, since when sorting most things (books, albums, etc.) you usually start with the artist/writer, then the title. --IllaZilla (talk) 23:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to Cyrus XIII for working up a beautiful solution for Once. Are you going to add it to the guideline? --Melty girl 18:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, this isn't my call alone (see above discussion), but at this point, there should be no harm in being bold and adding it as an option. Still, the only way this edit really messes with the old ways, is by sidelining wikitable based lists as a last resort after both numbered and template based lists. I doubt anyone will object to that. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 12:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I've added the language from WP:Lists to clarify that in simple situations a list is preferred. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:LISTS has come up several times in this discussion and it only recently occurred to me that if anything (see the earlier "#, Title, Length = 3 columns" arguments) it would only apply to wikitable use-cases, as these are actual tables, in the sense that all column naming, formatting, and so forth are handled by the editors. The template is largely pre-formated and based on human-readable options, which arguably lowers complexity quite a bit. Hence restrictions carried over from WP:LISTS that are based on the rationale of avoiding unnecessary complexity would not would not accurately reflect the actual complexity at hand. It also ignores the many cases in which the template is in fact used in these simple situations, which makes this a prescriptive change to a guideline, which is supposed to be descriptive (see WP:NOTLAW). – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 13:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Lacking that clarification, I believe your change lacks consensus, so I'm reverting to the previous version. It seems we need to discuss it further. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Certainly. I'd rather see something not covered by guideline than have it covered in a way that does not reflect what is happening on article level. :) – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 13:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

←Now that the previous version is restored, in discussing the matter above, multiple editors (including me) have noted the increased difficulty of implementing a template rather than a simple list. It has been suggested that the template may be appropriate for more complex situation. I would be inclined to agree with that. However, I don't see consensus that it is equally acceptable for all situations. I myself don't think it is. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, then how about we go into some of the fundamentals of this discussion? First of all, lets keep in mind, that the number of editors that posts on the talk page of WP:ALBUMS does not form the consensus on what is and what is not acceptable for album-related articles. As maintainers of a descriptive guideline, rather than a prescriptive one (again, see WP:NOTLAW), it is our job here to take a look at what is happening in these articles and summarize and describe the approaches editors have come to use more often than others.

Also note how closely the pros and cons you and Freekee listed earlier mirror each other, which is a good indication that this has become more a matter of personal tastes, rather than objective argument. Based on that, while it is probably still a good idea at this point to make mention of the template in WP:ALBUMS, it would be ill-advised to have that come with a note attached (or dogma, if you will) that tells people right away that they are wrong use it in a number of cases. Especially since this retroactively invalidates the work of editors on articles where the template has been in stable use for months.

If you want the community at large make up its mind about that gizmo, make them aware of it, offer them to use it and then sit back and wait and see in what scope it is actually being used. This approach also sidesteps the what-constitutes-simple question any differentiation would naturally bring up and hopefully transforms the theme and tone of the surrounding discussion away from "numbered list vs. template" and more towards "numbered list + template". – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 14:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

That seems quite reasonable to me. But I would like something added that said the template is neither approved nor disapproved of by the project. Otherwise novice editors may feel the have to use the template. --JD554 (talk) 14:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that it's a good indication of anything. The sample size of the discussion has been relatively small. The referenced section in WP:LISTS specifies that simplicity is preferable for ease of editing where exceptional circumstances do not exist. I've given a specific example above of a case where the use of the template made correcting an error in the article more difficult. That's a practical, real-world example of a problem. I disagree heartily that Template:Tracklist is as easy to implement as a list. It may be a template to help with table creation, but it is a table, complete with table formatting and syntax. The use of tables for simple lists has been discouraged at WP:Lists since 2003 (here), so I don't believe that incorporating language from that guide "retroactively" invalidates anything done involving a table template created in 2008. The template (and the tables it produce) are pretty. But function has to supersede form, and in the spirit of producing an encyclopedia that can be edited by anyone, we need to be careful about widely implementing complex editing syntax when it isn't necessary. With respect to WP:NOTLAW, I point out Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Sources_of_Wikipedia_policy. "Good" is the operative word here. I disagree that the use of tables to replace simple lists reflects "actual good practices". I do, however, think it has a place in more complex situations. I am opposed to adding it as an alternative to the guideline without noting already existing consensus with the regards to the use of tables in situations that can be served by a simple list. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Franchise naming convention discussion at WikiProject Media franchises

Dear WikiProject Albums participants...WikiProject Media franchises is currently discussing a naming convention for franchise articles. Since this may affect one or more articles in your project, we would like to get the opinions of all related projects before implimenting any sweeping changes. Please come and help us decide. Thanks! LA (T) @ 22:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Track listings and tables

I've noticed that on a lot of articles about albums, there seems to be a large amount of different types of tables used. Is there certain type of table that should be used, or are all tables acceptable? DiverseMentality^{(Discuss it)} 23:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi. :) The question of how and when to implement tables is currently under discussion above. The style guide at Wikipedia:Lists suggests utilizing a list for simple matters, so that future editors find it easier to contribute to and change the contents. In more complex situations a table may be appropriate, but there's no recommended formatting for tables at this time. There is a template to help create tables which has some consensus for use in complicated tracklists, {{Tracklist}}. But if a table is what you need, you have plenty of latitude in choosing what type of table will work best for your specific situation. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:35, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, okay, thanks so much. DiverseMentality^{(Discuss it)} 16:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Stylized typography

Hello! There is an issue over at the article for an Eazy-E album involving the use of stylized strike-thru text, superscript on something not necessarily superscripted within the title of the page using the {{wrong title}} template. It has been a very slow-moving, but controversial discussion, and a user recently used that pages titling as rationale to change another title with a similar strike-thru issue (Maximum the Hormone's single "Houchou Hasami...") where the title is crossed out to convey artistic statement. Are there any thoughts on this issue? --Jacob ^Talk 19:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Slow moving, I'll say! The last comment before yours dates to February of 2008, and the last comment before that to May of 2007. I'm not sure I could characterize that as controversial; "apathetic" seems like a better descriptor. :) It seems like all the conversation at the other page has taken place in the edit summaries. Maybe it would be better to discuss it at the talk page there? I myself have no strong opinion about the use of special characters within the title, so long as the name conforms to Wikipedia:Naming conventions. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:25, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Discography adding remixs

Be interest to hear what you think about should a discography also include any remix's of that song. A person may like a remix and not the original song or what's to know if there are remix's knocking about BrianBoulnois (talk) 23:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi. :) Are you talking official remixes? If so, then probably yes. For example, Closer (Nine Inch Nails song) includes information on various remixes. Unofficial remixes should likely not be mentioned unless reliable sources verify their significance. at the Beatles' White Album mention is made of Danger Mouse's The Grey Album. Remixes by fans or non-notable bands probably will not be significant enough for inclusion. Certainly these should not be linked to from within the articles, as links to external sites that violate copyright are disallowed. (Remixes are derivative works and must be properly licensed to avoid infringement.) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:36, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Live EP?

I have an important question as I am currently working on a detailed Melissa Etheridge discography. There is a live record released by her - it contains four formerly released songs (lasting about 24 minutes) in live versions. Does this record qualify as a live album or as an EP or is there a category called live EP? Here you can read more about it. Thank you! --Euro Mok (talk) 12:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like an EP to me, but that link calls it a single. The record company determines whether it's a single, an EP or an LP. If they don't seem to say, you go by what reliable sources call it. If you can't find any references, you take your best shot. As for classification, all EP's are called EP, and only full-length albums get the separate listings for studio, live, compilation and the like. -Freekee (talk) 16:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Freekee about the current policy. But you are not the first to ponder over this. Over at Template talk:Infobox Album#Modification for Discussion: Types there is a recent proposal to create a type for "Live EP" amongst others. But the discussion is sort of sleeping at the moment. You can always try to wake it up if you feel the issue is worth pursuing. – IbLeo (talk) 17:36, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Release date accuracy and sources

I have just posed a question at Talk:Train of Thought (Reflection Eternal album)#Release date and it occured to me that this issue may have arisen before. I couldn't find any mention of it, so I'm raising it here. How can we determine the release dates of albums? I usually look at the reviews and other external links, but sometimes the websites in question sites contradict each other. When several release dates are given, should we assume that they are all accurate and use the earliest or should we consistently favour some sources over others? Tim Ivorson 2008-08-24

Use your best judgement. In general, sources like the record label and the band itself should take precedence. After those, respected music publications are favourable, then lesser-known publications and websites like Amazon, CD Universe, or Discogs. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, do beware of situations where the record label doesn't post this info; this problem has me hung up on a prototype Article on a Rhino Hi-Five EP, where Rhino doesn't have the release date at the appropriate subaddress of www.rhino.com/store/digital/detail.lasso, and backup sources are unavailable to date (Main Article: User:B.C.Schmerker/Article PrototypeB). Seems to happen rather frequently with digital releases over the 'Web, while vinyl, cassettes, CDs and DVDs have been properly dated for the most part. B. C. Schmerker (talk) 06:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Terror - Always The Hard Way

i check the track listing of this cd and see that it's different from the tracks i find on the file sharing program i use (Soulseek). i havent found a single user who has the same tracks in the same order as on Wikipedia. Could someone help with some clarity?

207.255.20.65 (talk) 21:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)Tyler Puhatch 8/25/08