Talk:South Ossetia

Comment

I'd like to know where the census information came from? Right now it is unsubstantiated - could be any old data. And since Georgians claim that Russians seed these areas (S. Ossetia and Abkhesia) with their own citizens accurate demographic data is an imperative. If someone doesn't find a bibliographic reference to that census data - I will remove it. ` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canuckistani (talk • contribs) 15:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC) Canuckistani

Double standards: Kosovo and South Ossetia, any difference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.71.18 (talk) 15:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This country has not been recognized as independent by any other nations, yet it's been given as an entry as a separate country. Also, the declaration of its indpenence is listed as coming in 1944. Also, the map shown is that of Iceland, although this region is in Russia. Moncrief, 7 Mar 2004

The Iceland stuff want remain. I just use it when adding the tables to the unrecognized countries. South Ossetia is at independent as Chechnya or her East African counterpart Somaliland. They have succesfully fought the goverment of Georgia and that gives there decleration of independence some truth. She has fought a civil war and was not demolished and thats why her "independence" holds water. Vital Component, 7 mar 2004 3:40 pm U.S. Eastern Standard Time.

I can't see the harm in having the table there. It's a defacto state, and I don't think a table specifies it as an independent country - especially when it says "Recognition - None". Perhaps recognition could be linked to an article on international recognition of states. Ambivalenthysteria 22:18, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It makes it pretty clear that the country isn't yet recognized by other countries, and like the previous poster said, its de facto independence is valid. I don't myself think that recognition is in the cards but as long as the situation remains like this I think that they deserve the box that widely recognized countries get.

The article is well-written, and remarkably neutral for a subject that might otherwise be really hot, so...my compliments to the authors.Adam Faanes 21:01, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

South Ossetia has de facto recognition but regardless of how well they are known. It appears that Ossetians have won the conflict and i fell to see the point in widtholding recognition when South Ossetia won the conflict. Why claim what you cant control if you cant control what you claim? I think South Ossetia is deserving of a box .Vital component 05-19-2004 4:40 AM (EST)

Personal opinions are frankly irrelevant here - South Ossetia is not a recognised independent state. However, I agree that it deserves an infobox, as a national subentity - I think the current box is fine. -- ChrisO 10:20, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

South Ossetia is not an independent state and will not be for a couple of reasons:

• First of all, Russian supported separatist government in Tskhinvali does not ask for independence, instead they want to become a part of Russia;
• And, second, it is a historical Georgian territory, still partially populated by ethnic Georgians and controlled by the Georgian government. Therefore, for Russians to annex South Ossetia, they may have to ethnically cleanse the remaining Georgian population there, which, hopefully, the international community will not allow them to do so, nor the current Georgian government will surrender without putting up a fight like they did in 1991 after Yeltsin’s threats to bomb Tbilisi.

--128.174.155.119

That doesn't really matter in the context of a discussion that seems to be based around whether South Ossetia is worthy of an article or not. DMcMPO11AAUK/Talk/Contribs 13:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone kno the political parties of the presidents kokoity or Chibirov or Torez Kulumbegov or Znaur Nikolayevich Gassiyev ? ANY info on the latter two would be nice..Vital component

Kokoity leads the Unity Party, and Gassiyev belongs to it. Kulumbegov led the South Ossetian Popular Front. I don't think that Chibirov had a party, as such. --Jonathan Kulick

Hi ChrisO, Could you please reference the source of "In April 1922, following fierce fighting between White Russian and Soviet forces the "South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast" (i.e. district) was formed." Something wrong there in terms of the timeline. Also, "fierce" sounds to me like POV and translation from embellished Russian (Soviet) textbooks. Kober's formulation seems more logical and clear to me as I remember Ossietians got an autonomy status thanks to a red army installed Bolshevik government in Tbilisi, in particular the guy named Sergo Orjonikidze. They might have supported Reds against Whites, and that eventually helped them to lobby for an autonomy status like in the case of Lakoba and Abkhazians, but again they could not achieve an autonomous district status without Bolsheviks sitting in Tbilisi. I'd suggest to remove the reference to "fierce fighting" and have a neutral formulation - In April 1922 South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast was formed. Thanks, bjs. thanks, bjs

Population numbers discrepancy We see theses sames numbers reappear from publication to publication, yet no one is ever surprised that the announced number of ethnic Ossetians who fled the initial conflict in 1991-1992 is (far) superior to the total Ossetian population in 1989. This should be corrected once and for all with a phrasing such as "tens of thousands of ethnic Ossetian (...)" Condor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.69.91.101 (talk) 09:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Citations used to justify Russian aggression against Georgian territory and its military cannot be factually verified since they are only in Russian. When discussing "reports" of Russian deaths which preceeded the Russian invasion, please use reputable news sources written in English, since Wikipedia is an English based site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.217.42.91 (talk) 22:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC) Wikipedia pretends to reflect not the truth (that is opinion), but what is accepted as that. As it is, I find it acceptable to include references in russian, as most references in english will only reflect the opinion of western media, witch is the other part fo the dispute. In order to be balanced, russian sources are a "must". The pravda website has references in english (as balanced as NBC ;) ), but I really can't find that site to be reasonable, and quality should be the priority.

Aitorbk (talk) 13:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

comments

I would say that the article is not neutral and rather inaccurate. The author comments that though it is not recognized, it deserves a separate box. It could have its separate box but the question is to call everything their internationally recognized names. So It is not a republic but a breakaway region and it is ridiculous to put all the state symbols there.

Also a short comment on the history section. Before the Russian anexation of Georgia "South Ossetia" did not simply exist. There were no Ossetian settlements in that region and were artificially created later on.

Date of indepedence

Did South Ossetia declare independence on November 28, 1991, as the main Wikipedia article on the country claims, or on September 20, 1990, as is frequently cited in scholarly articles and in this Wikipedia article Georgian-Ossetian_conflict#Origins_of_the_Conflict? It is also worth noting that September 20 appears to be the day chosen by the South Ossetian state as its independence day.

Old citation needed tags

Should that Roki tunnel one at the end that says that South Ossetia gets a third of it's income from the Roki tunnel also come off?

recognition?

"The United Nations, European Union, Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Council of the European Union, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and most of the countries around the world recognize South Ossetia as part of Georgia. "

Does any nation or treaty organization recongnize South Ossetian independence? Kingturtle (talk) 16:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

None that I know of. Maybe Abkhazia. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7549736.stm Hrcolyer (talk) 16:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Some unrecognised countries (Abkhazia, Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh) recognise South Ossetia, as far as I know. No country recognised by any UN country recognises any of those "countries", though.(212.247.11.156 (talk) 17:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC))

Russia have recognized this coutries. Belarus promise to recognize them . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.193.164.28 (talk) 02:50, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

So far only Russia has recognized the independence of South Ossetia, while Belarus and Venezuela have both said that they would at some point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.117.44.104 (talk) 19:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Russias role

Does not Russia recognize South Ossetia? --Oddeivind (talk) 18:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Nope, not that I'm aware. They are concerned that if they recognized THIS breakaway republic, it would be seen as hypocritical considering their dislike of the independence of Kosovo, and people would say, what about Chechnya? So, much like Armenia not officially recognizing Nagorno-Karabakh, wider geopolitical considerations rule out recognition (at this point). --Golbez (talk) 22:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

So, what is Russias excuse for invading South Ossetia? This means that they in fact invade what they themselves consider Georgian territory. --Oddeivind (talk) 09:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Their excuse is in the article - protecting Russian nationals. --Golbez (talk) 21:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems that Russia has decided to be hypocritical after all... --Oddeivind (talk) 17:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The excuse is Georgia's breaking a ceasefire, 14 hours salvo missile bombardment of Tskhinvali, which was reported by both HRW and Amnesty International, and killing 12 Russian peacekeepers with UN mandate as well as hundreds of civilians (SO authorities say up to 2000) during one night on 08.08.08, when the Olympic games began. This is not quite an excuse, a reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.202.113.34 (talk) 03:33, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

2008 War

This section under the 1989-2008 conflicts is very biased towards the Russians, it contains no information about the Russians continued advance even though Georgia has withdrawn from South Ossetia and their refusal to accept any peace treaty until the Russian army has "completed its mission". Request an objective rewrite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pongley (talk • contribs) 20:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Mobody talks about huge crme by russian troups on Georgian teritory. The damage that they've done and killed and kidnaped people! And that the war is not only on teritory of defakto south ossetia it's in wole georgia! Main cityes are invased by russians. and that it's a danger for the whole world —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dedisnato (talk • contribs) 13:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

So what? This is real war, not play video game. You should blame Mikheil Saakashvili, poor Georgia people pay the price. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.115.3 (talk) 19:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

And when Georgia invaded South Ossetia, and killed hundreds civilians and UN mandate peacekeepers in one night, it was not a threat, only some inconveniense, right? You better discuss your government propaganda with some fellow Georgians... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.202.113.34 (talk) 03:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Map of control

Article contains this map that show Georgian-controled areas in South Ossetia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SO2.jpg I understand that this map show pre-war situation, but article should be updated with info about post-war situation on the ground. Does anybody have information about this? Are Georgians in control of any part of South Ossetia after this war? 81.18.58.234 (talk) 21:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It's far too early to say. Let's wait a few days and see what new information is released. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, but at least, description "Areas claimed to be controlled by the Georgian government are colored grey" should be changed into "Areas claimed to be controlled by the Georgian government before 2008 South Ossetian war are colored grey". 81.18.58.234 (talk) 09:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we have answer now: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Georgia-War-2008-08-11.jpg 81.18.58.234 (talk) 09:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I've moved the map further down and changed the caption to: "Hatched shading shows Georgian-controlled areas in South Ossetia in June 2007 (according to Tbilisi, Georgia)." Khoikhoi 20:41, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

independence

this article states the country declared independence, when the BBC stated that to Saakashvili he was adamant that South Ossetia did not declare independence, but rather declared itself as part of Russia. It hardly sounds unrealistic, so can someone find a reliable source for this either way?- _JLogan^t: 10:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

To quote from "The Foreign Policy of Russia: Changing Systems, Enduring Interests", In August 1990 the Abkhazian Supreme Soviet declared its independence (at the same time as South Ossetia). Khoikhoi 20:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Confused sentence in lead paragraph

This sentence in the locked article's lead graf needs changing: The independence has not been diplomatically recognized by any member of the United Nations except former Soviet nations, – which continues to regard South Ossetia as part of Georgia. I suppose it was intended to say that the UN continues to regard, etc., so a new sentence should begin after nations: "The UN which," etc. This can be done without waiting for a resolution on whether "former Soviet nations" have recognized South Ossetia as independent. -- 68.220.194.63 (talk) 14:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The "except former Soviet nations" bit was unsourced; I've removed it. Khoikhoi 20:36, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure which countries have formally recognized South Ossetian independence, but Russia has begun the process. From the New York Times, August 10, 2008, in an article by James Traub, "Taunting the Bear:"

"Soon afterwards [after the US and EU recognized Kosvo's independence], the Russian Duma held hearings on recognition of Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Transnistria, a pro-Russian breakaway republic in Moldova. Moscow argued that the West's logic on Kosovo should apply as well to these ethnic communities seeking to free themselves from the control of a hostile state. And then, in mid-April, Mr. Putin held out the possibility of recognition for the breakaway republics."

Whether Russia now officially recognizes South Ossetia or not, I'm not sure. It will likely do so soon.

--Gregor Samsa (talk) 21:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, also see [1]. Khoikhoi 03:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments - The Introduction - Last Paragraph

From the introduction: "North Ossetia (currently part of Russia), and South Ossetia (currently part of Georgia) The south want to be part of Russia and there Federal government won't let them. So the Federal government went to war with the state army of South Ossetia. Russia seen this and also claim that the south should be part of Russia and sent there own troops to stop the Georgia government from invading the State."

Though I am unsure of the facts of this paragraph, I think the professionalism and correctness of it should probably be fixed, especially since it's the opening section, and a locked topic.

Essington (talk) 10:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. Khoikhoi 02:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Intro

The intro should probably mention the 2008 South Ossetia war instead of having a link to it at the top of the page. If not, then we should remove/update the following:

Georgia has retained control over parts of the region's eastern and southern districts where it created, in April 2007, a Provisional Administrative Entity of South Ossetia headed by ethnic Ossetians (former members of the separatist government) under the leadership of Dmitry Sanakoev which would negotiate with central Georgian authorities regarding its final status and conflict resolution.

In particular, the first sentence ("Georgia has retained control over parts of the region's eastern and southern districts where it created") needs to be updated. AFAIK, Georgia does not have any control over any part of South Ossetia. In addition, the current status of the Provisional Administrative Entity of South Ossetia needs to be mentioned. Khoikhoi 03:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no reason to spill the current state of the conflict into the intro. The intro is not the place for observing Russian troops control one third of Georgian territory and burned Georgia's coast guard fleet, for example, either. The link is the correct solution. —PētersV (talk) 15:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I put in a notation which addresses your concern without otherwise changing the content, hope you agree. —PētersV (talk) 15:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but that's not quite what I meant. I meant that the current status of the Provisional Administrative Entity of South Ossetia should be mentioned, whether is still exists, etc. The readers of this article will probably want to know this. If not then we can remove the whole paragraph and have this covered further down in the article. Khoikhoi 20:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I've reorganized a bit, moved some of the intro further down, as Georgia no longer has control over part of South Ossetia's eastern and southern districts. South Ossetian separatist troops also appear to have control of the town of Kurta (see [2]), the residence of Dmitry Sanakoyev according to his article. Khoikhoi 04:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

POV Map

The POV map which has been incerted by Russian User "BestAlex" is unacceptable for this article due to its POV content. He intentionaly changed the city names from Tskhinvali to Tskhinval, Znauri to Znaur, and even inserted Russian version of the name for Akhalgori. None of these names are official or in english. We need neutral users like Chris0 (who already created NPOV map but was taken by Russian user and modified to suit his POV and of his President in Moscow) to insert the NPOV map which does not chop the "i" from the names of the cities and changes it into Russified version. Iberieli (talk) 14:22, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Understood now. Yes, all the mainstream sources, e.g. UN maps and other relatively objective sources, appear to use the established names such as Tskhinvali and not Tskhinval. Thanks for explaining. ... Kenosis (talk) 16:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

2008 war section

208 war section is unbalanced and does not present Georgian version of events, just Putins quotes are used and not more than that. Therefore, it has POV problems. Hence, the tag. Iberieli (talk) 14:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Please cite sources for 2008 census figures. Grandmaster (talk) 05:58, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's a source on the population of the region at various times (in Russian): [3] Grandmaster (talk) 07:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Interview with Mikhail Gorbachev and interview of South Ossetian US citizen on FOX news

In an interview with CNN's Larry King, the former soviet president Michail Gorbachev stated that he believed Georgians initiated the hostilities with overwhelming force, although he did not cite any refrences but given his credit it is not immidiately clear why he should not tell what he thinks is true. Also in an interview with FOX news channel, 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia a South Ocetian US citizen who was there when hostilities broke claims being bombed by Georgians and thanks Russians for saving them.

Interesting new info: Триалетская Осетия

I just found and interesting map: [4] and article: [5], both refering to territory named "Триалетская Осетия". Since I do not understand Russian very well, could somebody with good knowledge of Russian to translate this text and perhaps we can have new Wiki article about Триалетская Осетия? 81.18.62.141 (talk) 15:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a pity he doesn't quote his sources... It's well known that Ossetians lived not only in South Ossetia but also in Trialeti - see this map from CIA world book, for example. However many of them left Georgia in 1991-1992 due to the conflict in SO - "Approximately 100,000 ethnic Ossetians fled Georgia [proper] and South Ossetia" (HRW report). There were 94 thousand Ossetians in Georgia proper (without South Ossetia) in 1979 and about 38 thousand in 2002(Census results). Alæxis_¿question? 16:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

However, Ossetians weren't a majority there (unlike in SO) - in no district of Georgian proper they accounted for more than 20%. Alæxis_¿question? 16:37, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, maybe more about Триалетская Осетия could be found in some of these pages: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F+%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%8F&btnG=Search My native language is Serbian and therefore I am able to understand basic meaning of Russian texts, but I do not understand these texts good enough to translate them into English, so I think somebody with good knowledge of Russian should translate them for English Wikipedia. Anyway, the title of our new article would be something like Trialetian Ossetia? 81.18.62.141 (talk) 16:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, most of these links are not even remotely scholar. Currently I know of no reliable sources to begin writing such an article with. Alæxis_¿question? 16:45, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Recognition

When did Russia formally recognise South Ossetia? There is only one news about this on BBC, which goes as "Russia's parliament has backed a motion urging the president to recognise the independence of Georgia's breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia". So the Parliament has just urged the president to recognise the breakaway region, but there is no mention of official recognition by Moscow.Wikiturk (talk) 19:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you are right. Alæxis_¿question? 19:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

BBC: Russia recognises Georgian rebels - President's made it official now. - JVG (talk) 14:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Samachablo, labeled by russians as South Ossetia can never be independet from Georgia, since it is an integral part of Georgia. Samachablo means property of Machabeli, Georgian Nobelity who owned the land today called S. ossetia. Thousands of Ossetians live in all parts of Georgia peacefully next to Georgians. How is it possible that they cannot do so on the border? You cannot immigrate to the country and later on grab their hunk of land. It is illegal and International law has codified it in many cases Quebeq and Aaland cases among them. International law cannot be undermined especially when the disputed terrtories, in case of both S. ossetia and Abkhazia, contain patchwork of villages. there are few Ossetian villages in Imereti(undisputed Georgian territory) too, which means that cecession is illegal and will be reversed by all means. On a personal note: when Georgians saved Ossetians from Mongols and opened doors to them it did not mean that they cut their peace of land and gave it to the intruders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.241.214 (talk) 06:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Nothing was labelled. Back in the Soviet times, there was a South Ossetian autonomous republic, which was part of Georgian SSR. And it was only integrated in Georgia as part of different regions only when Gamsahurdia(sorry if spelling is wrong) came to power and started etnic genocide. This is when major conflict started, and it continues for now.195.182.143.44 (talk) 07:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Belarus promise to recognize South Osetia and Abhazia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.193.164.28 (talk) 02:54, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Sanakoev

I don't see how the info was "removed", it was just moved into a different section. See the third paragraph from the "Political status" section:

In April 2007, a "Provisional Administrative Entity of South Ossetia" headed by ethnic Ossetians (former members of the separatist government) under the leadership of Dmitry Sanakoyev, was created by Georgia, which had retained control over part of South Ossetia's eastern and southern districts. This provisional administration would negotiate with central Georgian authorities regarding its final status and conflict resolution. On May 10, 2007, Sanakoyev was appointed by the President of Georgia as the Head of South Ossetian Provisional Administrative Entity.

Khoikhoi 03:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Ibirieli did a search for "Sanakoev" and didn't find the duplication because it uses "Sanakoyev". —KCinDC (talk) 03:44, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia has never been annexed by Russia!

To the best of my knowledge, in 1801, both Georgia and South Ossetia joined Russian Empire voluntarily, seeking protection from Ottoman Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.161.246 (talk) 03:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The situation is rather complex here. Different parts of Georgia (Kartli-Kakheti, Imereti, Guria and Mingrelia, Samtskhe-Javakheti, Ajaria) became parts of Russian Empire in very different ways. Alæxis_¿question? 06:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Aitorbk (talk) 13:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC) I fully agree: it is complex. Most oarts were annexed by force, and by force I mean not only an armed invasion, but a huge army near your borders.. and "suggestions". In fact, the part of Georgia that was still not under otoman control was annexed against its will. Aitorbk (talk) 13:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgian controlled areas

What is the current situation as regards those areas of South Ossetia that have been under Georgian control? Were these taken back by S. Ossetians or does Georgia still hold control? There is some info about the Upper Abkhazia, where the Abkhazians are now in charge.Wikiturk (talk) 05:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, S.Ossetians are controling the major part of SO, even the Georgian-populated villages to the North of Tskhinval. I'm not sure about Leningori area (East of SO). Taamu (talk) 06:00, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The Georgian-populated villages to the north of Tskhinvali have ceased to exit as the separatists have self-admittedly burned them to the ground "to make sure that the Georgians will never return". As for the Akhalgori district, this is currently divided between the opposing factions and as far as I know from locals the separatist militias have failed to gain a foothold there although 4 or 5 Russian APCs are still there and the local brewery was razed to the ground yeasterday.--Kober^Talk 06:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Akhalgori itself seems to be under SO control [6]. Alæxis_¿question? 06:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

...but the SO control over it seems to be nominal. Unlike other Georgian areas, it has not yet been ethnically cleansed and people are largely unaffected. I presume the reason is the presence of a pro-Georgian Ossetian minority in the town and the administrator appointed by Kokoity has close ties with Georgians. It is a small detachment of Russian hardware that actually exercises control over the roads, but the settlements are largely unaffected although as I have already mentioned a famous local brewery was destroyed yeasterday.--Kober^Talk 06:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, let's hope the situation won't turn to the worse there.. Alæxis_¿question? 06:20, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... High hopes. --Kober^Talk 06:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

"I just want to say, here’s the map of South Ossetia, and here’s a town called Akhalgori, and I’ve been told that tonight Russian troops are sweeping through it pushing Georgians out and over the border. It’s ethnic cleansing, creating a homogeneous South Ossetia. That is unacceptable, we can’t accept everything," - Bernard Kouchner.[7]--Kober^Talk 15:21, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

1500 russian tanks

The article says George attacked Tsinhvali in response to Russia's deployment of 1500 tanks in Northern Georgia. What is the source of the information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.80.202.203 (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The Tie-eater said that there were even (!) 2000 Russian tanks. I belive he confuses it with Battle of Prokhorovka. Taamu (talk) 07:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

There is a source (paragraph 7 of Transitions Online, source from BBC Monitoring) that states that 5 battalions of the Russian 58th Army were moved to the north of the Roki Tunnel on 4 August 2008. This is referenced article from source <A href="http://www.tol.cz/look/TOL/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=281&NrSection=1&NrArticle=19821">http://www.tol.cz/look/TOL/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=281&NrSection=1&NrArticle=19821</A> (Talking Through Gritted Teeth. BBC Monitoring, 6 August 2008).Unfortunately the user Taamu has been completely removing this reference stating that the article does not talk about this movement (although it is in paragraph 7), and is not referenced (despite the URL above being cited). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.97.221.19 (talk) 22:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Split article?

On other breakaway country issues, Wikipedia often divides the article so as to avoid POV. Examples of this include:

• Ireland/Republic of Ireland/Northern Ireland
• Taiwan/Republic of China/Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China
• Nagorno-Karabakh/Nagorno-Karabakh Republic

It would be editorially prudent for us to apply the same precedent here. By distinguishing between the geographic region of South Ossetia and the proclaimed Republic of South Ossetia, we can avoid any determination one way or another as to whether or not South Ossetia is an independent nation, a rebellious province or whatever else POV warriors may wish to call it. This outcome has worked extremely well in the other instances the community has implemented it. It would be the responsible NPOV choice to make for this article as well. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 21:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Not a good idea for the same reasons its not a good idea to split Abkhazia, and also because we already have a Samachablo article. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:21, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Taiwan is not exactly break away, as it never broke away from anything. The government of the Peoples republic of china never had control over Taiwan, so how can it have broken away from something which never controlled it?Guitar3000 (talk) 16:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit: moved text to correct section (above). Mu apologies 203.97.221.19 (talk) 00:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

objectivity (lacking)

This article lacks objectivity in that it supports the contention that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are independent states. Below a featured map is the text:

"South Ossetia (purple), Georgia (tan), and Abkhazia (green)."

The wording of this text presupposes that theses areas are not a part of Georgia. I would refer readers to the 1933 Montevideo Convention which supplies the four tests for determining sovereignty. As these areas are not recognized by any state other than Russia, they fail the fourth test of sovereignty.

I removed this POV in the article, and it was promptly removed by user:Kwamikagami with the simple explanation, "no, it is what it is." Surely more debate on this matter is deserved - both as a matter of common courtesy, and as a means of achieving an article which is not simply a soapbox for other's political crusades. 98.218.243.122 (talk) 11:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a crusade, it's simply reality on the ground. These are independent states, and have been for a decade. So for that matter are Transnistria and Somaliland, which no-one recognizes, and, for a few years, Chechnya. (I almost said the main Serbian enclave of Kosovo, but I'm not sure that's not part of Serbia.) This has nothing to do with whether they should be independent. By wording it as "in Georgia", you're claiming they reside in Georgia, which they do not. Maybe you can come up wording that suggests neither that they are independent nor that they are part of Georgia. kwami (talk) 18:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we're talking past each other. I mentioned the Montevideo Convention which is used by International Relations scholars to ascertain the existence of sovereignty. South Ossetia fails this test. Many political divisions have varying degrees of autonomy, yet they are not considered one of the 193 (or so) *recognized* sovereign states. I'm not interested in what states *should* be considered independent - whether by Russia, the US, or anyone else. I'm concerned that the article present, as objectively as possible, the realities of the international state system. The overwhelming consensus is that these areas are within the state of Georgia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.218.243.122 (talk) 01:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

He's right. According to international law, neither regions are States. The idea that these regions are sovereign states should be taken out of the article. This article needs to be objective, and the most objective test of statehood is based upon the Montevideo convention.

Honans (talk) 20:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Where does it say that they're sovereign? Khoikhoi 20:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. The map identifies geographical regions, not sovereign states. Having a map like that is equally valid to, in an article on Quebec, having a map that shows "Quebec (purple), New York (green), and Canada (tan)" In know way does that imply that either canadian provinces or american states are sovereign nations. Random89 23:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I think Kwamikagami is confusing autonomous regions with independent states. This is partially due to the language the Russian/separatist side uses to try and frame the debate. There is no question the regions are autonomous, and I believe they were this while under full Georgian control. They have never been internationally-recognised independent states (except in Russian rhetoric). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.21.136.199 (talk) 20:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, where does the article actually say that south Ossetia and Abkhazia are "internationally-recognised independent states"? Khoikhoi 20:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Attaining NPOV

I came to the "South Ossetia" article looking for background to what I read in the news. In one read of the article and discussion page, it seems to me that the difficulty in attaining NPOV stems from the fact that "South Ossetia" is a contested term, used in a contest about the political status of a patch of land and its inhabitants. The contest has historical, linguistic, legal, and other aspects. Wikipedia can't settle the contest--not even the contest regarding the term "South Ossetia". Can it attain NPOV by describing the contest? Tombird (talk) 16:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

According to OED, Ossetia is "a region of the Central Caucasus partly in Russia and partly in Georgia." According to the BBC, "But Georgia rejects even the name South Ossetia, preferring to call it by the ancient name of Samachablo, or Tskhinvali, after its main city." Khoikhoi 03:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Georgian Wikipedia has called it "South Ossetia" since the creation of the article in 2006, and still calls it that today, despite the fact that most of its few edits were made after Aug. 9. kwami (talk) 06:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the Georgian article is about South Ossetia as a de facto republic, not as a region. Also, I recently found out that the terms SO and Samachablo cannot be used interchangeably. SO is apparently larger than Samachablo which includes a dozen or so villages. There were several other Georgian princedoms which now make up SO, but Samachablo was incorrectly generalized to refer to the whole SO early in the 1990s. Khoikhoi 10:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

the term "South Ossetia" reentered the official usage after Saakashvili came to power in 2004 and promised to give the Ossetians autonomy. It is used interchangeably with the Tskhinvali region, but the pro-Georgian Ossetian administration is definitely called the Provisional Administration of South Ossetia which was legitimzed by the Parliament of Georgia in 2007. I think SO is a valid political term regardless of its historical correctness.--Kober^Talk 10:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Re: South Ossetia as a part of Russia and the Soviet Union (border changes)

Why did Georgia change the administrative borders / boundaries when the former South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast ceased to exist? Was is it a divide and rule policy? Whatever the reason, surely it deserves some explanation in the text (if I haven't missed it). A series of maps showing administrative changes and comparing them with a map of the declared republic and perhaps even ethnicity maps would add significant information. Apalomita (talk) 08:19, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't "Хуссар" be Romanized as "Hussar" rather than "Xussar"?

ProudPrimate (talk) 02:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC) or preferably as Khussar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phil Ian Manning (talk • contribs) 23:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering about that too. With the Russian transliteration used in English Wikipedia, it would be "Khussar", which is what this article had until recently, but then it's not Russian. I don't know if there's a transliteration method that's both usable for Ossetic and compatible with the one being used for Russian. That's because Ossetic has more phonemes, and the digraphs with "h" seem to usually be used for something else in Ossetic transliterations — so "kh" would be used for къ, not х. But there might be another way to transliterate the Cyrillic digraphs that would be compatible. All I know about Ossetic is what I've found on the web. —KCinDC (talk) 03:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

When Ossete was written in the Latin alphabet, this sound was <x>. That's also seen in some current transcriptions. The letter <h> was used for a sound closer to French R, and <kh> for ejective [k’]. kwami (talk) 04:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

"Celts" sounds like "k..." right? So, I guess it's a matter of liking. But if you want to give a romanized equivalent of the word, I think it should be "Hussar". Taamu (talk) 14:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

TimeLine

1237-40 - Mongols invade Russia, forcing Ossetians to migrate out of their medieval homeland south of the Don River in present-day Russia. Digor in the west came under the influence of the neighbouring Kabard people, who introduced Islam. Iron in the north became what is now North Ossetia. Tualläg in the south became what is now South Ossetia, part of the historical Georgian principality of Samachablo.

1774 - For negotiations about joining of Ossetia (today's North Ossetia) to Russia, in Mozdok there has arrived special Osset delegation and has met there the plenipotentiary of Russian government — the Astrakhan governor Krechetnikovym. In Mozdoke the question on definitive joining of Ossetia (today's North Ossetia) to the Russian empire has been dealt with [8].

1782 - Tsar of Kakheti (state of Georgia) Irakl II addresses to Russia with the request for acceptance of Kartli-Kakheti (2 states of Georgia) under protection [9];

1783-July-24 - The Treaty of Georgievsk is signed between the Imperial Russia and the Kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti (2 states of Georgia) about transition of Kartli and Kakheti (2 states of Georgia) under protectorate of Russia. Today's "South Ossetia" [10] is on territories of the Georgian kingdom of Kartli of that time [11]. After joining of Ossetia (today's North Ossetia) and transition of Kartli and Kakheti (2 states of Georgia) under protectorate of Russia, formation of Osset settlements on plain of the North Caucasus and in a foothill strip of Georgia (which later and becomes "South Ossetia") has begun. This process, proceeding the long period, has come to the end only in a Soviet period, after mass resettlement of mountaineers on plain [12].

1800 - Pavel I Manifesto on abolition of Kartli-Kakheti kingdoms and joining of East Georgia to Russia [13];

By the 1770s census, 2860 ossetian families lived in Machabeli principality. By 1804s statistics, 12 ossetian families and by 1922s statistics 613 families lived in Tshinvali. In 1989s population of South Ossetia reached:

65,200 (66.2%) Ossetians (1.4% of all Georgia population)
28,700 (29.0%) Georgians
2,128 (2,1%) Russians
871 (1,21%) Armenians
648 (0,9%) Jews
5,100 (4.8%) Others

1802 - Population and princes of Kakheti protests against Russian occupation;

1804 - Revolt in Kartli (Today's "South Ossetia" is on territories of the Georgian kingdom of Kartli);

1918 – Georgia declares independence following the Russian revolution.

1921 – The Red Army invades. The South Ossetians are accused of siding with the Kremlin.

1922 - Georgia becomes a founder member of the Soviet Union. The South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast (district) is created within Georgia in April 1922.

1989 - Demands for more autonomy in the South Ossetia region lead to violent clashes between Georgians and Ossetians.

1990-91 – South Ossetia declares its intentions to secede, leading to more clashes.

1991 – The Soviet Union collapses.

1992 – South Ossetians vote in favour of independence in an unrecognised referendum. Hundreds die in sporadic violence, which continues until June when Russian, Georgian and South Ossetian leaders meet to sign an armistice and agree the creation of a tripartite peacekeeping force.

1992-1993 - More than 25,000 Georgians were expelled from Tskhinvali as well, and many Ossetian families were forced to abandon their homes in the Borjomi region and move to Russia.

November 1993 - South Ossetia drafts its own constitution.

November 1996 - South Ossetia elects its first president.

December 2001 - South Ossetia elects wrestling champion Eduard Kokoity as president in unrecognised elections.

2002 – Kokoity asks Moscow to recognise the republic's independence and absorb it into Russia.

2003 – The Georgian president, Eduard Shevardnadze, is toppled in the rose revolution.

2004 - Mikhail Saakashvili wins Georgian presidential election and declares his intentions to bring breakaway regions of South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Ajaria back into the fold.

2006 - South Ossetians vote overwhelmingly in favour of independence from Tbilisi

The present composition of the population is unknown, although according to some estimates there were 45,000 ethnic Ossetians and 17,500 ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia in 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by VJocys (talk • contribs) 12:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

References

state, republic, country; de facto, de jure

Pace our edit warrior, a republic is not "smaller than" a state. Both words are accurate, but republic is more precise. A "country", on the other hand, does not entail a govt., which SO has. Ajaria is a country. SO is something more than that.

By saying SO is de jure independent, we're saying it is not de facto independent, which it is. We could also argue that SO is a de jure part of Georgia, so saying it is "de jure independent", besides being misinformative, is also POV. I think "SO is a de facto republic" is well worded, though maybe someone can suggest something better here? kwami (talk) 17:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Breakaway territory, effectively independent, self-administered with overt Russian assistance and intervention in affairs predating current military conflict with Georgia. (For example, Russian passports.) 'De jure' part of Georgia.

   None of the frozen conflict zone territories are countries. SO does not have enough relations or recognition to be 'de facto' anything as a state. More than this is POV. —PētersV (talk) 23:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Recognition has nothing to do with being de facto independent. Almost all of the conflict zones are countries. That has nothing to do with independence. kwami (talk) 23:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)