User talk:Wikidemon

xrxty

Check the contributions list of Special:Contributions/72.192.216.42

Barack Obama

Could you direct me to the living person "Large Family" please. I have never heard of this person. Landon1980 (talk) 20:01, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The comment in no way insults, the Obama's, African American's, and not even large families. This is ridiculous, the same little group of article owners make it impossible for anyone to comment unless they praise Obama. Landon1980 (talk) 20:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be on some kind of polemical mission here. The comment you and the IP are inserting accuses George Obama, half brother to the President, of being a "criminal", and you're edit warring on a pages that is on probation (not to mention removing a warning from another editor's talk page) to try to prove that point - when there's no chance of the material getting into the article. You need to take a step back if you want to avoid being blocked for disruption. Please direct your efforts on productive work likely to improve the encyclopedia. Wikidemon (talk) 20:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

No, the comment does not accuse Obama of being a criminal. I'll not revert anyone any more, but to say that comment is an insult is very far fetched. Landon1980 (talk) 20:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The comment says that in such a large family one half-brother being a criminal is not significant of the article. Landon1980 (talk) 20:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. That's why it is inappropriate. It could be phrased in a way that does not assume that the allegation is true. Wikidemon (talk) 20:13, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

You would not have removed the comment under any other circumstances, you did it in pure spite of me. If the small group of you are going to control that article you need a thicker skin. Try assuming good-faith from time to time. It is only the talk page, making a reference to large families does not violate BLP and you know that. Landon1980 (talk) 20:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Is this a cut and paste? You accused another editor of exactly the same thing. At last count at least three different editors removed the comment on the same basis and you seem to have violated WP:3RR to restore it. Why should I spite you? I have no interaction with you that I'm aware of. The comment does accuse a non-notable living person of being a criminal. It's not the biggest BLP vio in the world but it is unproductive, and it's in a now-closed conversation on a subject that is very unlikely to lead to a change to the article. I see you're already on notice of article probation, and there's an AN/I report right now. BLP, and article probation, apply to article talk pages as well. Probably best to take a deep breath and, as I said, concentrate on improving the encyclopedia rather than drama.Wikidemon (talk) 20:22, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I said you couldn't stand me based on your comments in the past calling me a "problematic- editor," and some other comments you made. Do you not remember the long and drawn out thread on the Obama talk page about his race? So you are telling me if you saw that comment you would remove it? Calling someone arrested over drug possession charges a criminal is not a BLP violation, and you know that. Landon1980 (talk) 20:31, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't remember that but I'll assume it's correct. But Wikipedia is a collaborative user-generated encyclopedia, not a WP:BATTLEGROUND. I deal with disruption all the time and don't carry any grudges, but if this new flare-up is any indication there is indeed something problematic going on. Wikidemon (talk) 20:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

You were also deleting my comments in the past, an admin had to start the thread for me because of you and two other editors. There is no point in discussing this further. Yes, I am aware of the article probation. Also, I am aware of WP:3RR, so if you feel I need blocked to prevent disruption voice your opinion on the thread at ANI. Landon1980 (talk) 20:38, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Did it ever occur to you that if I truly was "edit-warring to restore blatant BLP violations" I would have been blocked? Calling someone a criminal when it can be reliably sourced is not a violation of any policy. Your acting as if that comment was in the article itself, it was on the talk page for crying out loud. The only admin that got involved called the comment a "borderline-offensive comment" wikipedia is not censored. From what I've seen you have a bad habit of tampering with other's comments, and I'm betting I'm not the first to tell you that. When you were removing my comments in the past an admin had to step in to get you to quit, had to start the thread for me because of you. You would delete everything I posted, which was in good faith and did not contain any personal attacks, etc. Landon1980 (talk) 15:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

That makes no sense at all. You are in no position to complain about my edits, which are just fine. I'm not going to debate you and I have no interest in continuing this discusion. I've cautioned you. You were wrong to do it. This isn't a close case. Don't do it again or you will likely be blocked.Wikidemon (talk) 16:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Who do you think you are, you are not the community or an admin. Your block threats are ludicrous, just don't worry about what I do. You have no business threatening me over something I stopped doing hours ago. Remember, you are not an administrator, as such you threatening blocks really is pointless. Landon1980 (talk) 17:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to discuss this anymore. I've done my best to warn you. The rest is up to you.Wikidemon (talk) 17:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

You are correct there is no point in discussing this. I don't want or need your advice. I have a clean block log, and if I were as disruptive/problematic as you say I am I would have a block log a mile long. The only thing I did wrong was edit-war, I should have reported you and provided diffs of your history of tampering with other editor's comments. You would even remove certain parts of my comments, rearrange them and everything. It took two different admins stepping in before you would knock it off. I stopped reverting that comment a long time ago, so your threats are getting closer and closer to personal attacks. This is your talk page, so go ahead and get the last word in. I'll not waste my time on this any more than I already have. However, if/when I see you deleting good-faith comments, rewording them, etc. I will deal with it appropriately. Landon1980 (talk) 17:42, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

For goodness sake, you were the problem in both instances, not me or the other editors. Your reading of what happened in both instances is seriously off. You stand to be blocked if you behave that way. Ignore that at your own peril. Wikidemon (talk) 17:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Until you are an admin I will take your threats as what they are, empty threats. I stopped reverting that comment a long time ago. Your threats are personal attacks. Let's just drop this. You understand you need the tools to block other editors don't you? If I remember correctly, in the earlier instance mentioned your behavior along with two other editors was frowned upon on the ANI thread. An admin started the thread for me and you all were told to leave it alone. Landon1980 (talk) 18:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

No personal attack, just a caution against disruptive editing. Turning that into a complaint about me is pretty far-fetched. Occasionally there are some misguided people at AN/I who have a knee-jerk reaction against refactoring talk pages, without looking into exactly what happened. But the Obama page requires a lot of policing and a lot of refactoring. I've just found the old issue to which you were referring - you were on the Obama talk page calling people racist for saying Obama is African-American, or something like that, then went to Grz's editor review page Wikipedia:Editor review/Grsz11 to accuse him of incivility. I agreed that Grz ought to keep his cool even in the face of that kind of thing, even though you were off base there on the talk page. Anyway, I really don't carry grudges or try to remember any run-ins with an editor from one issue to the next - best to treat every new day as a fresh start for all.Wikidemon (talk) 18:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Why was the following fact and verifiable reference with an AP (Associated Press) photo not good enough for Wikipedia that you had to tag it with a RS (Reliable Source) and BLP (Biography of Living Persons)? Does Wikipedia have a personal political agenda in censoring facts that refute the P.C. view of Obama as a "Christian" and was registered in elementary school as a Muslim by religion and Indonesian by citizenship?

START QUOTE There Obama, then known as "Barry Soetoro," an Indonesian by citizenship and Muslim by religion, END QUOTE

Thanks, if you reply and give a logical, coherent explanation on why these facts were expunged. No thanks if you ignore this valid complaint on blatant censorship of a valid fact. Katydidit (talk) 17:24, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:FAIL - Wikidemon (talk) 17:48, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Hey

If you continue to post on my talk page harassing me I will resort to a legal threat against all of wikipedia for continued copyright infringement of my works. Resorting to WP: No legal Threast will only help my case against you. Wikipedia is NOT exempt from the law. 68.38.147.199 (talk) 23:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Note - the above editor was trolling, and has been blocked for legal threats. Wikidemon (talk) 01:16, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

A liberty

Looked at your contribs today, guessed you're done. So i went ahead and did this. [[1]]. BestBali ultimate (talk) 23:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Amusing chap, isn't he? Wikidemon (talk) 01:17, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Tort reform

Thanks for the shortening work. It's better. Would you like to weigh in on this conflict of interest posting ? Wikidea 21:54, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Sure... I don't see what the fuss is about though. Wikidemon (talk) 21:58, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi

Hadn´t spoken directly with you in a while, thought I´d say howdy.Die4Dixie (talk) 08:44, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi to you too. Thanks for the note. We're like talk page elders by now, huh? I hope you didn't mind my gratuitous use of y'all the other day, I have an affinity for the South too... Wikidemon (talk) 09:12, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Not at all. Seems that most people with whom I agreed with were sockpuppets or perma banned. You might try and encourage that fellow to go to the RS board. If they are in agreement then the article should just say Hawaii. If they are fringy then Just leave it. I think the naming of the hospital is agenda driven, but I don´t feel strongly about it. It might get a little hot there as I do think that the Wright controversy should be linked to somewhere. Doesn´t have to be long or drawn out, but in a BLP, it is conspicious by its abscence. You were good and patient with that fellow. I probably overreacted to his comments on my talkpage, but I picked a tough name when I started for people who haven´t stood far enough away when they looked at it. Most end up accepting it and it doesn´t come up later. Some folks look at my page and think I am off the cast of Deliverance, and so because I´m Southern I hate Obama and smoke a corn cob pipe an´ choo to-bachy. I don´t like socialism. I don´t want an editor thinking because of a userbox or two I´ll knee-jerk support something that he supports because of politics. You should have seen my early edits and the shitstorm they provoked at Sean Hannity when they had his natioanlity as Irish. I pissed a guy off so bad there that I probably agree with on 90 percent of the issues. He then reported my username and it got ugly. Oh well, I´m rambling now. Take it easy. Maybe the fellow will come back tomorrow.Die4Dixie (talk) 09:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I do try to cut the sincere hotheads some slack, as opposed to people who are just playing with us. I guess your username is conjuring up the southern rebel thing, and some people are probably seeing confederate flags and segregation. I hadn't thought about Deliverance...some people don't understand southern pride, and people in the north / east / west have their own passive-aggressive kind of chauvinism. All good, though, it's better than everyplace being the same. RS is a good idea, although in my experience people on BLP, RS, and other non-administrative noticeboards tune out really fast and aren't of much help if it looks like people are squabbling. Can't say I blame them. Nobody wants to jump in the middle of a cat fight, especially if it's not their cat.Wikidemon (talk) 20:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

New sock?

User:Eclectix, with only one previous edit on another subject, has jumped right in to the Obama talk page. His/her fourth Wikipedia edit is an RFC. I think we need to be wary of possible sock (and certainly SPA) activity. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:58, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmmmm..... True. I didn't learn about RfCs until several months of editing, it's not exactly the most obvious or easy to master piece of Wikipedia procedure. Yet the pattern does not seem like any of the familiar recent socks. A premature RfC after failing to gain consensus on a relatively trivial but POV technical issue does smack of newbie-ness.Wikidemon (talk) 20:56, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Pikacsu is suspect as well. It's almost like the sort of thing Dereks1x used to do. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:13, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

That one is flaming out today... I wonder if it's worth filing an SSP or RfCU. Maybe wait until he's blocked and if another account begins disrupting we can request a CU on the lot of them. Wikidemon (talk) 20:18, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Obama talk

You just topped it of nicely (in your edit summary) :) .--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 03:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I had emailed you much earlier about the topic. I think that my directing the user to the appropriate page for the info if he could find reliable sources was sufficient without arbitrarily scrolling my comments. The above users comments were excessively antagonistic in addition to his puerile comments on his summaries were not particularly helpful.Die4Dixie (talk) 04:41, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry - I don't often check my Wikipedia email but I was trying to give it the benefit of the doubt because of your involvement. TMCK lives up to his name IMO across many articles, gleefully and with a bit of sass mopping up editing problems. Personally, I think it was Sceptre's comment about "bullshit" that was over the top, which is why I reworded the closing message. I think it's beating a dead horse at this point though. Now we're having a discussion not about ACORN but about when threads should be closed, politely declined, or just deleted. The IP editor is blocked at this point BTW. Wikidemon (talk) 04:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough . BTW, I removed the wrong section. I had intended to remove the section that I had so stupidly named. I see that you have renamed it , and I thank you for it. The other comments could be added back , but I am done with it. It was beginning to cause me some stress. I really don´t want any trouble with you nor Clean keeper. Suffice to say I apologize and I´ll come abck tomorrow when I don´t feel as contary.Die4Dixie (talk) 05:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Next narrative segment

Hi. Could you replace the bullet symbols with numbering? Or give me permission to do that? It would then be easier for me to refer to your points. Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Sure. For the future I don't mind formatting / organizational changes to any of my talk thread posts.Wikidemon (talk) 04:01, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Obama is the first President of the United States to have been born a British Citizen since William Henry Harrison.

WHY DID YOU UNDO THIS CHANGE ON THE OBAMA PAGE? IT IS ACCURATE, INTERESTING AND SUPPORTED BY FACTUAL REFERENCE. IT IS IN NO WAY OFFENSIVE, DEFAMATORY OR PROFANE. Natwebb (talk) 05:53, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Obama is the first President of the United States to have been born a British Citizen since William Henry Harrison. When Barack Obama Jr. was born in 1961 Kenya was a British colony. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status and the citizenship of his children was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948 (Part II, Section 5): "Subject to the provisions of this section, a person born after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if his father is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of the birth." Therefore, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.

see also http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Natwebb (talk • contribs) 06:05, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama#Obama_is_the_first_President_of_the_United_States_to_have_been_born_a_British_Citizen_since_William_Henry_Harrison.Natwebb (talk) 07:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The identical comment, posted to Talk:Barack Obama, has already been answered and resolved on that page, so I will not respond here. Wikidemon (talk) 07:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Alternative to notability

Hello! I am working on an objective alternate to notability in my userspace. Please read User:A Nobody/Inclusion guidelines and offer any suggestions on its talk page, which I will consider for revision purposes. If you do not do so, no worries, but if you wish to help, it is appreciated. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 01:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Ratttso

[[2]] has bee editing the user page for ratttso, might want to keep an eye on this user. He has said he is a computer science teacher and can evade blocks, I imagine he has been blocked before. I don´t have the patience for him now[[3]].Die4Dixie (talk) 08:36, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

If that were true, he would be risking his job to pointlessly vandalize Wikipedia. And you don't have to teach computer science nor is that kind of Internet application even the subject of CS, anyone can figure out how to do that after a few minutes on google. More likely a weird kid using the worst threat he could dream up.Wikidemon (talk) 19:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree and amplify - in my experience, computer science teachers are the most dramatic possible example of the axiom "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach others how." If he really wanted to scare us, he would say he's a weird kid with a little knowledge and too much time on his hands. arimareiji (talk) 19:29, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if Ratttso is the same editor as User:Cc2po. They're both editors with little history and similar writing style, meatpuppeting each other's obscure fringe content and defending each other's extreme peculiar behavior. Ratttso is obviously not on the level. Why another editor would rush to his defense and parrot his fringiness is beyond me, it doesn't add up. Wikidemon (talk) 21:47, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

No, it does add up... we're just not supposed to say it out loud. arimareiji (talk) 23:22, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Thought you might be amused by the update, if you didn't already know: He tried to complain about you et al at AN/I, only to get sockblocked. arimareiji (talk) 13:57, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow, that's maybe the 12th sockpuppet who's filed an AN/I on me in the last year. I wonder if some of those are related or if it's just something that sockpuppets like to do.Wikidemon (talk) 19:41, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality funny

Seen this? -- Scjessey (talk) 15:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Mossad

Seeing your edits at CAMERA, I wondered if you had any knowledge of Mossad. Perhaps you could check out my talk page post there. Grsz¹¹ 03:46, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Re: February 2009

Below warning copied by editor from their own talk page

Welcome to Wikipedia. Do not do this[4][5][6][7][8][9] again. It is a fairly serious breach of Wikipedia policy. As a strict matter of consensus you should not edit war to insert content that is disputed, in this case by five different editors who reverted you on the article page and an additional editor who disputed the edit on the article talk page. For more information on the consensus process see WP:Consensus and WP:BRD. Random policies and arguments you cite to justify the material do not overcome the need to establish consensus. However, this particular material disparages an active Wikipedia editor based on reliable sources having little to do with the subject of the article, so it is not a matter for consensus. Also, you should note that Israeli/Arab subject matter is covered by "General Sanctions", described here. Persistently disruptive editors may be blocked and/or banned from editing articles on the subject. If you continue to revert this material into the encyclopedia I will bring the matter to the attention of administrators, who may choose to temporarily block you from editing the encyclopedia to prevent disruption. Wikidemon (talk) 07:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you actually stated a policy that necessitates the removal of this material that the material is a serious breach of, because you have so far failed to do that. This material is not covered under the WP:NPA. It would help if you read the relevant line in the policy "Pointing out an editor's relevant conflict of interest is not a personal attack" or WP:BLP because it isn't biographical material in any way shape or form. Taking out well sourced material, that is not abusive in any way, and that there has not been a consensus reached on to exclude is a violation of WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:YESPOV. But thanks for the warning bud, its nice to know when people can't justify position they resort to just resort to threats. Thanks again champ. TWilliams9 (talk) 13:52, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I may respond on your own page, if you've commented there. Wikidemon (talk) 18:16, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

User talk:71.114.8.82‎

71.114.8.82‎ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Using the talk page as his outlet for the ACORN rant. Does 3RR apply, or is such a rant considered vandalism? I did mention this at WP:ANI, but I don't know if anyone's watching. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:39, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. The material is clearly not appropriate to a talk page, particularly a blocked user. You're well-known around AN/I so I doubt anyone would knee-jerk block you for it. Best is to ask someone to block the IP for a while. Failing that I would seek some positive encouragement from AN/I and then add a link to the AN/I discussion next time you revert - that way anyone looking into your edits would see that you've already sought guidance on it.

"is based loosely on" vs "is loosely based on"

It's the match of the century!

In this corner, weighing in at 4 words: "is based loosely on" . (cheers, cheers, cheers)

In the opposite corner, the challenger, weighing in at 4 words: "is loosely based on" . (cheers, cheers, cheers)

I googled the two phrases and got: 91,400 hits for "is based loosely on"; and 541,000 hits for "is loosely based on" .

It looks like the challenger wins by decision, but it wouldn't surprise me if the less popular version is more grammatically correct. I don't know what the relevant grammar rule is. Also, it may be better reading to use the more popular version. My preference is "is loosely based on". Forgive me if this might sound silly to discuss such a small issue, but I'm curious. Regards, --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know either is correct. With "is loosely based", the adverb "loosely" modifies the adjective "based", meaning that is a specific kind of basing. With "is based loosely" the adverb modifies the word "is", meaning that it is normal basing, but its status of being based is a loose one.Wikidemon (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Abbarocks et al

has a 99% chance of being a sock -- see [10]. I had a user before use the same m.o. named User:Brendan19 though not quite as blatant <g>. At the time I suspected wither the late User:Writegeist or User:Mattnad was also involved as they appeared (sometimes mysteriously) in the same discussions with the same vocabulary. As a wizop for many years, finding "alternate personas" was almost a sport. Mattnad appeared in Business Plot with this [11] having been initially logged in as 98.331.28.245 (indicating he logs on and off at about that time). Brendan19 five minutes prior made a similar type of post at Union Banking Corporation [12] Neither had been on either of those pages previously, hence the concern that the two are related. Abbarocks has been the main person reverting on Union Banking, while Ikip is the one on Business Plot. I suspect you are well familiar with Ikip at this point. Thanks! Collect (talk) 03:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, gosh. I just hadn't been paying attention. Still, if you get into arguments with socks on talk pages they win. Best to collect evidence quietly until you have enough to convince someone to do a CU or a block. Good luck. Wikidemon (talk) 03:35, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Barack Obama/weight

Hey, what exactly does this measure? Grsz¹¹ 03:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

This was from autumn 2008, when various difficult editors, were advocating for inclusion of disparaging material about Obama. Specifically they wanted to add or expand treatment of the matters of Bill Ayers (the supposed "unrepentant terrorirst"), Reverend Wright, and Tony Rezko. Because the issues came up every few days, often by repeated attempts by the same editors (later found out for the most part to be sockpuppets) to introduce the material, I wanted to create a stable page rather than trying to re-argue the issue every time. The objective here was to show the amount of coverage given in this article, and in another comprehensive account or two, to the various people and events in Obama's life. In an XXX word account of Obama's life, YYY sentences were given to a job he had for ZZZ years, AAA sentence were given to a relative, and so on. That would help keep the matter of a distant political ally, a pastor, and a political affiliate, in perspective. Wikidemon (talk) 08:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

And, rewritten

Hi. At WT:NOR, I responded to your last message there in the section And, written. I'm not sure if you saw it. Could you say over there whether or not it is OK with you to just replace the first sentence for now, as I suggested? Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:39, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/MZMcBride

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/MZMcBride/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/MZMcBride/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Tiptoety ^talk 02:40, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Them Terribles

A tag has been placed on Them Terribles requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a band or musician, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for musical topics.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 08:11, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

March 2009

Please do not remove speedy deletion notices from pages you have created yourself. Please use the {{hangon}} template on the page instead if you disagree with the deletion. Thank you. ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 08:17, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

• Please stop adding the speedy tag to the article, and be more careful next time. Check out my edit history - I'm not a novice editor. The article has an inuse tag and I'm working on it.Wikidemon (talk) 08:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits.
The next time you remove a speedy deletion notice from a page you have created yourself, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 08:38, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Given that you're not a novice editor, I don't need to give you so many warnings. Stop removing the speedy-tag. The instructions clearly say not to. If you disagree with it, follow process. But if you remove it again, you will be blocked. ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 08:38, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Why the heck would you want to waste your time and mine, and disrupt the encyclopedia, by repeatedly nominating an article undergoing active editing by an experienced editor on a notable subject for deletion, even after the editor has asked you to stop. I'm working on it. I don't write speediable articles. Because of the ridiculous so-called "last warning" I must take this matter to WP:AN/I - an even more pointless waste of time. In the meanwhile you might want to review some pages like WP:IAR, WP:AGF, WP:TEND, and WP:DTTR. Wikidemon (talk) 08:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, please let me know when you list the issue on ANI, with the {{ANI-notice}} template on my talkpage - thanks. ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 08:47, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I've just done it. I'll leave a courtesy notice after I finish a minor clean-up of my post. Wikidemon (talk) 09:00, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

You seem to have found the discussion so I will refrain.Wikidemon (talk) 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Shiny things and related...

		The Template Barnstar
		For introducing a new template, {{increation}}, which shall help to get less new articles deleted before they are finsihed. --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord2 23:14, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Great work. Now just make sure it will be linked to and from Wikipedia:How to create a Wikipedia article and other more frequently visited pages (wherever it fits and editors will look for when searching for an answer). Just try to make it easy to find incl. the welcome templates).  ;) . Again, great work and you did spend your time wisely.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:55, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

...and besides that, you did get what I consider "the nicest closing of an ANI thread" I'm aware of: "tea and sympathy for Wikidemon". With other words, you went from "getting a hard time" to "getting the best" in one day. How much better can it get? :) --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:09, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Article probation

I'm not sure I've actually seen it in action before. I'm impressed. Guettarda (talk) 02:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Kfedup (talk · contribs)Another article probation notice needed? Guettarda (talk) 03:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Yup....and when we're done, perhaps a WP:CHECKUSER on some of these editors. Wikidemon (talk) 03:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

• Whoops. Looks like we were working the same case at User talk:Neophytesoftware#Article probation notice, and I happened to block during the time you were giving him a final warning. Do you want to rescind, or shall I? I smell sock accounts nevertheless... seicer | talk | contribs 03:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Rescind the warning? The block is likely the way to go - the warnings and reversions only egged him on to be more tendentious. I doubt my warning would stop him, particularly given the climate established by the editorialist inciting the fringe loyalists to view the article as a dictatorship of the cabal. Wikidemon (talk) 03:16, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there any way to remove my user name from the notification list? I was just trying to be helpful. SMP0328. (talk) 03:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Don't take it personally - we're all on the notification list... I'll make a comment on your page to that effect. It's no stigma, and being on the notification list does not make you any more likely to get blocked for good faith editing. Article probation has generally been used as a tool to come down in real time on high-intensity disruption. Wikidemon (talk) 03:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. SMP0328. (talk) 03:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please let me know if what I wrote is okay - I can nice it up some more if that helps. If it were a regular warning I might strike or remove it, but we have no precedent for un-notifying people about article probation. It's just a notice, it means you're aware. Wikidemon (talk) 03:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Sleeping

Man I go to sleep and miss all the fun! I should stop sleeping and maybe then I'd be able to see the weirdness start! Brothejr (talk) 11:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

One needs to do a sanity / reality check. We went from a quiet, stable article to complete mayhem, socks, and a couple dozen or more editors singing the same tune, proposing the old nonconsensus edits, crying censorship, etc., all in one day. One tries to explain this in simple terms but then that's too much to be a mere coincidence. If the New York Times had published an expose on Wikipedia I doubt it would have influenced editing this much...Wikidemon (talk) 11:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I look at it as an attack by the far right wingers who are still sore over losing the election and are pissed that WP does not cover all the conspiracies like Conservapedia does. Basically in their minds, if it does not tilt toward the right and their views, then it is inherently biased. One thing that a Republican said (I forgot who) a couple weeks ago was that this country is inherently a center-right country and I could not stop laughing at that. The conservatives truly think that their way is the majority! That is what we are seeing here now. I'm expecting this to take a couple days to sort itself out. Brothejr (talk) 11:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I only wish that Wright line that had been added stopped most of the weirdness, but I don't think even one line would stop them. Brothejr (talk) 17:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This looks to be a replay of last fall - scores of meatpuppets and possibly sockpuppets making the same claim again and again while edit warring, crying censorship, insulting editors, calling the article a whitewash, etc. It may very well be the same people. The sudden influx tells me that someone probably put them up to it - behind the scenes emails, newsletters, etc. This camp has demonstrated before in the field of Arab/Israel disputes that they're willing to game Wikipedia - they're in the business of no rules espionage and sabotage in the world of journalism, so when they set their sights here it's no surprise. Plus they've convinced a number of Wikipedia's regular editors to go south as well.Wikidemon (talk) 17:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

True, I did notice a couple editors who normally would not care seem to be speaking up for the weirdness. Brothejr (talk) 18:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

3rr warning

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. NDM (talk) 11:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks tit-for-tat retaliation from a misguided user who wants to use a talk page on article probation for a soapbox. Wikidemon (talk) 12:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop harassing me

I've asked you numerous times not to post on my talk page. Please respect my request. If you need to call my attention to a discussion on an article talk page that would be fine. Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not harassing you. Because of your request, and the general vituperation you have directed at me for several months, I have generally disengaged from any involvement with you on the project. You have not always done the same. I have been patient, but that does not give you a free ticket for gross incivility and disruption to the encyclopedia, as you have been doing lately on the subject of Obama. If you disrupt an article I am working on and your talk page the appropriate place, that's how it is. If you don't like it, a better start would be cleaning up your act than complaining to me about it.Wikidemon (talk) 18:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

My focus is on article building and improvement, so I have no interest in arguing with POV warriors like you. I think the damage you do to the encyclopedia speaks for itself. Your comments on my page have nothing to do with article improvement and were pure harassment. Please don't post on my talk page unless it's to call my attention to a discussion of article content on an article talk page. Thank you. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:13, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Nope. That one is transparent, and you get a warning for that one.Wikidemon (talk) 18:16, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikidemon, you POV warrior you. Lol. Grsz¹¹ 18:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop harassing me Wikidemon. I've asked you numerous times not to post on my talk page. Your posts don't haven anything to do with improving the encyclopedia and are harassment. Leave me alone. Thanks.ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll refer to my initial response, and this picture of Doctor Evil.[13] Wikidemon (talk) 18:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

OMG, not the picture of Dr Evil!!!  :) Brothejr (talk) 18:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Might as well just ignore him Wikidemon. You and I both know that crowd can't handle being called out on their bullshit. Grsz¹¹ 18:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Ignoring is the best response, but it only goes so far. Eventually, it may be necessary to put together an RfC/U in order to make a case for a block or ban. --Ronz (talk) 18:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Just a note

I happened to read this and just thought I'd mention that this is the same editor who simply insisted the project's featured articles were incredibly flawed and called them "crap" and threw a huge fit because editors took exception to her insistence that the term "icon" should appear in the lead to Tina Turner without any supporting documentation and that "the whole article supports it." She didn't seem to get the concept that such an unsupported statement was POV and seemed really insistent on concentrating on Turner's legs vs. her comeback from nothing and a life of abuse to being a huge star. She also challenged the use of the term "businessman" in Michael Jackson because just buying a song portfolio (Northern Songs) and managing it for years didn't make him a businessman. Despite the efforts of editors to demonstrate that his having bought the portfolio was a smart business decision and that Jackson had parlayed it into his main source of income, she persisted, then finally retreated to her area of comfort before apparently entering the world of politics. Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Re: your note

Hey, thanks for the note. I agree completely with your view - the Obama article is nicely neutral, includes links to the daughter articles that Klein conveniently forgot to look at, and so forth. I did look over the article for links to the contentious stuff, and didn't see it at the time I checked, that's about the only complaint I could possibly have had about it at the time. I'm just getting annoyed by the frothing, at this point. Hopefully it dies down shortly and we can go back to dealing with the encyclopedia, instead of the influx of Freepers and dittoheads. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Investigation

Hello, I have added more information to your investigation begun here [14] TharsHammar (talk) 23:18, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

You might also be interested in reading the full letter from Klein about Jerusalem21, [15] TharsHammar (talk) 23:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

CSPI

Thanks! Neutrality^talk 02:32, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:SOAP

Article talk pages are for discussion of article issues such as content and sources. Also, thank you for reverting my resoration of a post on the talk page. I had not realized the editor removing it was the editor who posted it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 08:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop trolling. I was responding to an earnest poster's sincere question there. You really need to tone it down and try to conform your behavior to collaborative, civil editing.Wikidemon (talk) 08:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

It's troubling that you make yet another personal attack against me saying I'm trolling. This comment [16] that you reverted back onto the talk page does not have anything to do with article content or citations and violates WP:SOAP. There is a reminder at the top of the article talk page that says "This is not a forum for general discussion of Barack Obama. Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article." I hope you will remain civil and focused on article improvements in the future. It would also be good if you showed fairness in reverting and warning all editors who make personal attacks and inappropriate comments and not just those whose statements you disagree with. You commented soon after a statement was made about "batshit insane fringetards (and the poor sheep that follow them)," and I hope you're aware that this statment violates our civility guidelines and is grossly inappropriate. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:03, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I stand by what I said. There was a reason I added that commentary, because I was engaging an editor who made a strong point a number of people disagreed with. I don't think it's worth engaging you over this subject, however.Wikidemon (talk) 18:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Huff Po article

Dunno if you saw this, but it made me laugh. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

San Francisco Police Officers Association

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 13:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Please review WP:BLP and WP:DTTR - note that the editor who just templated me is the one edit warring across five editors to include a poorly sourced accusation of murder against a living person, after being cautioned not to do so.Wikidemon (talk) 13:42, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

• Poorly sourced - For more information, please see;

San Francisco Chronicle - S.F. police union accuses Ayers in 1970 bombing

The Politico - Group puts Ayers back in spotlight

Fox News - Report: Police Union Accuses Ayers in Deadly 1970 San Francisco Bombing

WorldNetDaily - Cold case: Will Ayers be brought to justice?

Fox Business - San Francisco Police Officers' Association Supports Effort to Bring Charges in 1970 Bombing Case

FrontPage Magazine - A Murder Revisited

KGO-TV - Union accuses Ayers of 1970 bombing

The San Francisco Examiner - Police union targets ’60s radical

Chicago Tribune - San Francisco cops target Bill Ayers

Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 13:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Please don't robo-cut-and-paste pointless stuff to my talk page. The problem is your edit warring of BLP-violating material into multiple articles simultaneously. If you want to make a case that this material should be in more than the one article where it makes the most sense, you're welcome to use the talk pages to make your proposal - currently the BLP noticeboard where this got consolidated. Wikidemon (talk) 14:07, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the warning!

I was not aware that "Talk:Barack Obama, is on article probation." 15:40, 15 March 2009 (hist) (diff) Talk:Barack Obama ‎ (→Bad faith all around). Although I should have. I have ready the article probation information and see I am to late to help. I wish all of you the best and only hope that everyone remembers that we all pay for what we do and don't do in due time. Everything is always done one group at a time. And it will be your time some day. That is why I protect even what I sometimes do not agree with, because they have rights too. And once you take them from one group it is easier to take them from others. Gama1961 (talk) 16:48, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea what that's intended to mean, nor do the repeated comments on the Barack Obama talk page make much sense. This is an encyclopedia, not a place to get into a debate about free speech. Talk pages are for constructive discussion about improving the article in question. You are not supposed to use the talk page of an article as a place to vent about what's wrong with Wikipedia or the editors on it. Maybe brush up on Godwin's Law too? It's odd that someone would create a new account and use it so far only to vent on the Barack Obama page about censorship.Wikidemon (talk) 16:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

It is not "odd that someone would create a new account and use it so far only to vent on the Barack Obama page about censorship". It is the first place I noticed your censorship. And it is the one thing I can not let go by unnoticed. Plus, it was brought to me by a concered adult becasue I often send my students there. But my classed and I will be looking for it from now on. And the fact the you find it odd, speaks volumes. Gama1961 (talk) 17:42, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

"Odd indeed" - you confirmed my suspicions. So you have never edited Wikipedia before, or have you edited before from a different account? Assuming you are indeed a teacher, new to the encyclopedia, and sincere in your intent to fight censorship, there are some things you need to understand first. Please review the welcome message and read the pages on the links for advice on how to be a constructive editor. You should also take a look at WP:NPA, WP:AGF, WP:NPOV, WP:TALK, WP:POINT, and WP:SOAP regarding your edits. Please be humble when approaching new projects that you do not yet understand, and don't come here with an agenda. Note that it is against Wikipedia policies to edit the encyclopedia as a class project. Also, if you are teaching students you should learn a bit more about what censorship is before throwing around the term loosely. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a public forum, and editing articles invariably involves a choice of which version will be approved. That is not censorship, that is editing. If you just happen to be an opponent of Obama who wants the article to be more negative about him, I hope you are being fair and allowing your pupils to make up their own minds. If you came here due to the fake scandal initiated by that right wing agitator Aaron Klein you ought to pay some heed to what actually happened.Wikidemon (talk) 17:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

BLPN discussion/ANI

IMO Noroton is just (again) trying to provoke you to make "mistakes" s/he did and (in part) led to his/her topic ban. Don't fall for it and don't overreact. You should and do know better.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 22:25, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I haven't made any mistakes. Is Noroton topic banned? I think the admins gave him a 3 week block as a more effective alternative. Wikidemon (talk) 22:41, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Re. mistakes.. No, not really but even if reasonable to collapse his edits (with his history in mind) I wouldn't have done it since (as you can see by now) he reversed it.

"Is Noroton topic banned?". You know, I'm not sure now that you're asking. Could be that he evaded it by "resigning" but I'm positive about that restrictions were "applied" to him either by force or for him to decide to do so freely. So I guess you're right with a "more effective alternative" which at the end comes down to the same as a topic ban, only that he's not in violation of it therefore.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:15, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

That's fine - I'll revert his re-insertion of the personal attacks. He has no leg to stand on with that. Wikidemon (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

With or w/o a leg or two [artificial legs I'm thinking w/o offense to anyone], I wish and hope editors/admins that where involved and remember the whole thing (from last year) would kick in (at ANI).--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:36, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. It will happen soon enough. Problem being, the new influx of novice POV editors, and likely the accompanying socks, could force a repeat of last fall unless people take a hard line on this nonsense. Wikidemon (talk) 23:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see POV editors (in general and from both "sides") as a problem since we can deal with them. I'm only discussed if they need socks. Very disgraceful. But anyway, I don't think last fall's repeating but if so, I'm out of here... :) --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Weatherman article

Hi Wikidemon. I actually wouldn't include any mention of Obama in that article myself, but it should at least shouldn't be made into an attack on Palin and should be similar to the Ayres article. Anyways I have commented on the talk page as you suggested. Please feel free to delete this or respond here or continue on that article talk page. Tom 03:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Arbcom

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#User:Stevertigo's disruptive trolling and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.

Thanks,

Arb

Hey, for some reason I can edit any page but ArbCom, could you post this under my section:

As this case is suppose to be about Steve's behavior, yet he only provided alleged wrongdoings against him, i'll put out the same evidence that I offered William Connonlley last night: Opening pointy ANI threads without the slighest hint of attempting to resolve the situation ([17], [18], [19]); edit warring on a talk page; edit warring non-constructive comments back into DRV ([20], [21]); edit warring at ANI to keep his disruptive sections open ([22], [23], [24], [25])

Steve has been around long enough to know that what he is doing is disruptive and inappropriate. If he were a newbie he would be identified as an SPA and indef blocked already. This isn't an issue for Arbitration, as administrative action under the terms of article probation could solve this. Grsz¹¹ 18:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Note to Clerks - Please move Steve's reply above to his own section. Just another example: he knows better, but chooses to be disruptive anyways. Grsz¹¹ 18:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, Grsz¹¹ 18:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm having my own trouble at the moment - I get a "server error" much of the time I try to post there. But I'll give it a shot. Wikidemon (talk) 18:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

That's what I was getting, but it was limited to that page. Plus some computer issues on my end. Thanks though, I wanted to get that in there. Grsz¹¹ 18:51, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Ping

[26] Was that the document? The convo at the bottom. rootology (C)(T) 23:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk page notices

I have asked you repeatedly not to post on my talk page except to call my attention to a discussion on an article talk page. This was necessary because of your history of harassment. There is already an Arbcom case about your biased editing. I suggest you consider carefully the guidelines for editing and behavior on Wikipedia. Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

You have made various requests in connection with your talk page, and I have said that I would not post unnecessarily there. I have never agreed to avoid your page entirely, and when your edits or some other mater warrant attention on your talk page I will post there. The tone of your message, above, is unfounded, unreasonable, and unduly combative. This seems to relate to your long-term denigration of my behavior and edits as being somehow detrimental to the encyclopedia, and if I cannot dissuade you from thinking of me as some kind of Wikipedia boogeyman I would at least appreciate it if you would hold that opinion to yourself. I have never harassed you, nor is it reasonable to say that there is an arbitration case about my editing. More to the point, I posted a notice on your talk page regarding a disputed edit you made to the Barack Obama article, telling you I was about to restore the article to an earlier state, and inviting you to discuss the matter on the talk page. Your talk page is the appropriate place for such a notice, and I am sure that whatever the outcome of the arbitration case may be, something along those lines would be considered a reasonable way of going about handling a disagreement about article content. Wikidemon (talk) 18:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop posting on my talk page. As noted above I have asked you repeatedly to use the article discussion pages. I'm not sure why you fail to respect good faith requests by other editors. The excuses you make for your biased editing and harassing comments just don't cut it. PLEASE STOP!!! ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe my earlier comment is self-explanatory, but to reiterate: I will post to your talk page when that is the appropriate place for a message that is important to pass along. I have refrained and will continue to refrain from posting unnecessarily there. The latest comments on your talk page are a case in point, stated neutrally and non-confrontationally, and entirely appropriate. Despite a temptation to do so I avoided characterizing what I think of your behavior, something I note you have not refrained from doing. I would ask you to extend me the same decorum - your comments above, as I note, are unduly confrontational. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 18:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Mailer Diablo 18:18, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Please assume good faith

I undid your archiving of a discussion item at WP:IAR characterizing it as disruption (also because I wished to comment on it as well). JustGettingItRight (talk) 21:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The issue has nothing to do with good faith. Please see my comment in that discussion area. The matter is being discussed in arbitration, and it should remain closed on the policy page.Wikidemon (talk) 21:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I would agree if someone were editing the project page. The talk page is designed to solicit comments, no matter how out of the mainstream they are (see WP:TALK). When a proposal out of the mainstream is opposed by consensus, then the policy itself is validated. JustGettingItRight (talk) 22:18, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's a definition of trolling - trying to get a reaction out of people by proposing something that is not on the level one knows will provoke them. We're not obliged to comment on something just because an editor wants to chat. If he has a real proposal he's free to bring it up, but not by goading people. Wikidemon (talk) 22:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

WD, I'm always open to discussion, so lets carry it on here if you don't object. You may wish to consider removing the edit you made at an archived section [27] and perhaps moving it here also - but that's totally up to you, I'm not fussed either way. I personally don't ever add into an archive, seems to me that you either unarchive it to continue the discussion, respond below the archive, or just drop it. But whatever.

As to specifics, well first of all I had no idea that you would consider my comments to be an attack. I stand by my comments equally as you. The objective facts seem to me that I am quite capable of holding my own in wiki-converse, I generally resist all forms of baiting and provocation, StVert was making reasonable responses and in fact it was yourself and Sceptre who brought an argument from elsewhere. The manifestation was reversions (including reversions of my good-faith edits, which I don't vastly appreciate) and in your case a long screed about your perceived grievances and deficiencies in others. I'm sorry if you disagree, but that's what I see, having no flea performing in the current arb-circus.

This perhaps reflects one of the big gulfs in understanding between different wiki-editors. I see a straightforward commment that I made, you see an attack. I'm not right to say "oh grow up!" and neither are you right to cry "I have been wounded!" We just approach things differently, and we need to find middle ground. Preferably not a battleground. Nevertheless, if you perceive an attack in my comment, I will apologize that you see it that way, and I'd ask for clarification as to esactly what I said that was an attack.

I'll re-iterate though that it's not necessary for you to pre-manage disruption. There are many other editors with eyeballs, thoughts and access to edit and undo buttons. It's important that you confine your disputes, else we risk chaos. I'd also ask you to trust my judgement. Regards! Franamax (talk) 00:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe my statements and actions on the IAR talk page were correct. Please reread what you said on that page, and here on this page. You take sides, not only against me but to criticize me for my attempt to explain the situation, tell me I am "getting worked up here", and tell me I shouldn't try to protect you from yourself or bring trouble from elsewhere (which has nothing to do with the issue). I responded because you chastised me just before the page was archived and it was a meta-comment about me, not about the proposal. Quelling disruption is indeed an important thing to do. Disruptive proposals are routinely shut down across the encyclopedia, and when an editor forum shops or attempts to expand disruption, they get shut down elsewhere. Here Stevertigo made an unserious proposal to do away with one of Wikipedia's core policies - that is about on the level of nominating a featured article for deletion. Stevertigo did not come out of the blue to make that proposal, as I explained. He was on a roll of provocation across a number of pages that started on the Obama page and landed in arbitration. It was not a fair proposal. Some of his various other actions on other pages were also summarily reversed - an article he was promoting was speedied, for instance. There has been a constant cloud of disruption lately on, and emanating from, the Obama articles and it's all we can do to keep things atable. Wikidemon (talk) 00:37, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, let me try to take these in order. I try very hard to not take sides, I try to see both sides and got a "consummate mediator" tag once, so I'm not too worried. (Note that I could claim a personal attack there :) The "getting worked up" bit relates to the sheer length of your post, which generally indicates an emotional rather than rational response. I did not mean to chastise you personally, although perhaps I used the "royal you" to refer yourself and Sceptre, two parties deeply involved in a wiki-squabble with the OP. My "meta-comment" was indeed about the responses to the proposal which I thought disproportionate. Quelling disruption is certainly important, but I can't help but observe the frequent contributors to WT:IAR and ya know - I haven't seen you there much. OTOH, check the history, I do believe that I have a little more stature on deciding what constitutes disruption on that page. Maybe you could ask Chillum or Father Goose about that - we've all spent lots of time on the issue. So yeah, be WP:BOLD in your edits, but rest assured that between us we've got it all handled. We don't all agree but we manage the situation, again don't bring your "management" of disruption to places where you aren't even checking to see who the existing managers are. Like I said, thanks for the input - other people than yourself are equally capable of closing discussion, editors not involved in current disputes.

Did I miss anything? As far as StVert and the ArbCase - don't care. Please take it up there. Not taking sides. I'll offer reasonable discussion to both sides. Just please don't extend disputes beyond the areas where they started. StVert caused no disruption in the WT:IAR post, beyond provoking reactions from involved parties. No-one else was harmed at all and StVert acted reasonably. The storm came from elsewhere. You take offense when I suggest you're getting worked up, but I'll still suggest that you calm down. Regards. Franamax (talk) 01:21, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

And possibly to clarify: Wikidemon, just because I disagree with you at a particular page at a particular time, doesn't mean that I disagree with everything you say, or think you're wrong on the underlying issue or feel compelled to attack you as a person. It just means I disagree with your particular expression of ideas. Odds are that I will be agreeing with you somewhere else within a matter of hours. Unless you're a troll, which eviodnce I've never seen and do not believe exists. We're just two editors with strong ideas. Again, apologies if you perceived any personal attack. Franamax (talk) 01:28, 21 March 2009 (UTC)