Talk:Kosovo

The Republic of Kosovo

I propose the name of the article should be changed to the Republic of Kosovo. This is not to suggest that Kosovo is a 'state' or has been recognized as one. It does however, represent the name of the country which the majority of people in the territory wish it to called. Moreover, the state proclaimed by Kosovo's authorities in 1991 had only Albania recognize it, but there is a Wikipedia article which refers to it as The Republic of Kosovo. This is very confusing for readers and not very clear. Changing the name of the article will also free up some of the space at the top of the 'Kosovo' page which makes the article look congested and highly fragmented. What do people think about this? Interestedinfairness (talk) 13:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The Republic of Kosovo is an unrecognised unliterall state,unless it is fully recognised by at least half of the World,it cannot be independent!UN Resolution 1244 confirms it,or otherwise why not allow the Serb Republic,N Cyprus,South Ossetia etc to be independent.Kosovo and Metohia will remain an integral part of the Republic of Serbia,and as soon as you face that,it will be better.Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by СРПСКИЦАР (talk • contribs) 20:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think renaming the article would solve much, the redirects would still be needed and the disambiguation at the top of the article sums up pretty well how controversial and confused the situation still is. P.S. Is it not fair practice to add new queries to the bottom of the page?Brutaldeluxe (talk) 13:52, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot about that etiquette, but I'll continue here for now

I have two points of contention, one is regarding the name of the article and the other is how the article is structered: the situation surrounding Kosovo's independence is not as controversial and confused in reality. It has now technically gained entry in to the IMF: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/db5f737a-39d6-11de-b82d-00144feabdc0.html. Even countries that refuse to accept Kosovo as independent, such as Greece, have voted in favor of it at the IMF. The article states: [joining the IMF is]...'a benchmark of economic credibility that would reassure investors and unlock hundreds of millions of euros more in economic aid...[to Kosovo]' If kosovo's status was as confused, or if Kosovo was as 'unstable' as the introduction to the article suggests, then the IMF would not risk its reputation and admit Kosovo as a member. The article needs to be more orientated towards the realities of Kosovo's independence, in the sense that Kosovo's affairs, whether foreign or domestic, are now directed from Pristina and not from Belgrade. Therefore, in the interest of maintaining a neutral point of view, the article should have the name Kosovo uses to apply for international organisations such as the IMF which has 180+ members. Furthermore, the people of Kosovo are no longer under the control of Belgrade, neither de jure nor de facto as entry to the IMF and the fact that Kosovo is a potential candidate for entry in to the EU - the same status granted to Serbia - shows. However, having said all of this, offcourse there should be some reference to the Serbian side of the argument, but this does not have to be with regards to what the country is actually called in reality.

Furthermore, if we look at the article on Israel, we see that the state is introduced in a positive light, despite being constantly at war with the Palestinians, besides the fact that Israel goes against aspects of international law and despite the FACT that some of its neighbors do not have full diplomatic relations with it, Saudi Arabia comes to mind first. On the other hand, ALL of Kosovo's neighbors have recognized its independence and have FULL diplomatic relations with it - apart from Serbia that is. Again, the article should reflect this from the outset and not ramble on about its non recognition from Belgrade.

The article on Kosovo should undoubtedly make reference to the ongoing dispute between Kosovo and Serbia, but this should be done later on in the introduction to the article as is the case with the article on Israel, not immediately as is the case with the Kosovo article.

What do people think of this proposal to re-structure the article? Interestedinfairness (talk) 20:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Your point on restructuring the article is valid and would make a positive change to it. Go for it, you have my 100% support for it. However, I still feel that "Republic of Kosovo" is at the moment a name used by Kosovars to remind people of their indipendent status, and it will probably remain as such. For example, and I aknowledge that it a different case, although the name for the Italian state is "Republic of Italy", the article about the country is called "Italy" and that's the name you see on the plaque during UN and EU meetings.

The reason that the Israel article gives such a rosey view of the country is that, like a lot of wiki articles, it is maintained by fans, plus the fact that Israel (and the countries that support it) has a large proportion of English speakers with internet access, things that its main detractors do not have. It's just a focus problem that exists in much of the English speaking world. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 21:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The page is protected, how do I gain access to edit? Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

You have to make a certain number of edits on other articles first, to show that you are a genuine contributor. You'll find more info here: Wikipedia:Protect.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 22:45, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Template talk:History of Kosovo

There is an attempt to use the Coat of Arms of the Republic of Kosovo as the symbol for the entire Kosovo region currently taking place on Template:History of Kosovo. Not only that, but the template makes no mention of the dispute and goes on to characterize the current state of affairs in Kosovo by calling it "Republic of Kosovo". In essence, the template completely ignores WP:NPOV and the fact that most of the world does not recognize the "Republic of Kosovo" or its Coat of Arms as representative for the entire region of Kosovo. I'd like to invite users involved in these affairs to have a look at this dispute. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 12:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Bad English

"Serbs hold a strong cultural attachment to Kosovo and see it as the cultural heartland of Serbia, here a World War I poster - “Kossovo Day” from 1916 inviting to solidarity with the Serbia's allies." That's bad English. --130.243.148.247 (talk) 13:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Double as much supporters for Kosovo at the ICJ

http://www.ora-online.ch/index.php/kosova/270-doppelt-so-grosse-unterstuetzung-fuer-kosovo-vor-igh says that about 20 countries will support Kosovo and only half as much will support Serbia in the courtroom. The problem that I wanted to point out is that many users say that Kosovo is not a state and refuse the using of signs of its statehood, for example the country box as it is on top of every country by stating that most countries do not recognize Kosovos independence. It seems they are wrong and they should at least admit now that most countries neither recognize nor not recognize, like New Zealand, for example. Therefore there are more countries that do recognize compared to the countries that do not recognize. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 15:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

UN Charter Resolution 1244 clearly states that Kosovo is a part of Serbia. The present goverment of Kosovo is part of the a Provisional Institutions of Self-Government which is outlined in the resulutuion 1244. Also, the EULEX "works under the general framework of United Nations Security Resolution 1244", as found on their site. My point is that 1244 is 100% in force and with this Kosovo is seen legaly as a province of Serbia by all countrie unless othewise stated. Those countries that did recognise the seperation of Kosovo are in direct violation of 1244 and they do so at the risk of being sued by Serbia. Thus, here on Wikipedia, we need to mention that some countries recogniuse the sepeartion of Kosovo while the majority of the world continue to see Kosovo as legaly a Serbian province. This seems to be reflective of reality and acceptable to Serbs and Albanians.Mike Babic (talk) 15:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

These numbers shown us at the ICJ prove exactly what I said from the beginning and disprove your claims as there are more countries in favor of Kosovas independence than against it and most countries are just still indifferent. However, time is on Kosovas side, every day nails Kosova firmer on the maps. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 00:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

The UN resolution 1244 do not states, in any part, that Kosovo is part of Serbia — in fact, it states that Kosovo is a part of Yugoslavia (by then, a non-UN member that was not recognized by USA as the sucessor state of Communist Yugoslavia) which would be out of political and military control of Belgrade and with institutions of self-governemnt until a resolution of its political status is defined. And the resolution 1244 was adopted by the UN Security Council, not by the UN General Assembly. So to define that “the majority of the countries of the world recognize Kosovo as part of Serbia” is not very precise to say the least, since many countries could be neutral in relation to the Kosovo’s independence question.--BalkanWalker (talk) 08:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

sheesh. statehood is not a popularity contest. Well, it may be, but you need to be popular enough to get UN recognition. Kosovo doesn't have that. There are promising signs that it may get there. Which means we will properly reflect the fact once it becomes reality, per WP:CRYSTAL. For now, the very fact that Kosovo's statehood is debated in front of an international court establishes that this is a dispute hence Wikipedia will continue to treat Kosovo as a disputed territory. --dab (𒁳) 09:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Dieter Bachmann, you live in Switzerland, you have to know that Switzerland itself was not a UN member until recently, so this is not an argument at all when it comes to statehood. And while talking about reality, Kosovo's independence is fait accompli. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 11:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense. The point isn't membership but recognition. If you know of any national or international body disputing the statehood of Switzerland later than 1648, I'd love to hear about it. dab (𒁳) 11:43, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Just face it, there is more support for Kosovo at the ICJ and resolution 1244 does not rule out independence as it does not states, in any part, that Kosovo is part of serbia, like BalkanWalker wrote. Everything else is nonsense - or serbian nationalistic propaganda denying the reality. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 13:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I am facing it. Things are looking bright for you aren't they. This means that maybe in five years or so, the RoK might get full international recognition. Feel free to come back once this happens. Until then, WP:CRYSTAL. See you around 2014. --dab (𒁳) 15:44, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

This will be short and simple. Resolution 1244 was signed by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Serbia has all legal rights and responsibilities of that dissolved state. 1244 reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Serbia and this is a fact. The new agreement, Eulex agreement signed by the government of Kosovo is also under 1244, as cited in my post above. To add, the actual government of Kosovo functions under one of the pillars of the 1244 that calls for Provisional Institutions of Self-Government.Mike Babic (talk) 16:54, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

If partisan, POV-pushing Albanian and Serb nationalists keep this argument up about whether Kosovo is independent or whether it is not, it will not matter because then it will become an edit war and this article will have to be put in lockdown. Albanian and Serb nationalists should not be trusted as objective observers of the situation. There is only one objective reality, and that is that most Albanians and Serbs ABSOLUTELY HATE EACH OTHER. I posted the sociological studies from the Tito-era on this article that indicate that Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo did not like each other in peacetime and there were few intermarriages or friendships between the two ethnic groups. Albanian nationalists see the Serbs as trying to occupy their land, Serbian nationalists see Kosovo as being occupied by Albanians. The only fact of the matter is that the two sides are completely unreconciliable, most Albanians hate Serbs and most Serbs hate Albanians. Xenophobia between ethnic and religious groups is strong in the Balkans and xenophobic nationalism is commonplace. SO, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS AT THE U.N., ALBANIAN NATIONALISTS WILL SAY KOSOVO IS THEIRS AND SERB NATIONALISTS WILL SAY KOSOVO IS THEIRS, THERE IS NO WINNER! If this article is just being used as a blog for such xenophobic Albanian and Serb nationalists to vent their hate of each other, this article should be shut off to all non-administrator users as it was after the declaration of independence by the Kosovo government in 2008. SO LET'S JUST STATE THE FACTS ABOUT THE SITUATION IN KOSOVO, KOSOVO IS A REGION WITH TWO ETHNIC FACTIONS THAT HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF HATRED TOWARDS EACH OTHER. THEY HAVE BOTH COMMITTED WAR CRIMES AGAINST EACH OTHER BECAUSE THEY HATE EACH OTHER, THE END! Every time that I see an Albanian nationalist or Serb nationalist say "this is pro-Serb", "this is pro-Albanian", "this is anti-Serb", or "this is anti-Albanian", I will post the capitalized statement on the situation of Kosovo, because that is the ultimate reality of the situation. Kosovo is a disputed territory just like Kashmir, East Jerusalem, Chechnya, South Ossetia, Somaliland, and the Tamil regions of Sri Lanka. Thus Kosovo is not some special place that defies the laws of gravity (metaphorically speaking of course), it is just like any other disputed land. Multiple factions contest the land and hate each other. The sooner that Albanian and Serb nationalists recognize that their dispute is not unique, perhaps they will be less arrogant in asserting their claims.--R-41 (talk) 02:29, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

That's it. But you can say it much shorter: If there is no consensus in a marriage the consequence is divorce. Such a pity serbs seem not to accept this divorce. But they must, there is no other way. The sooner they accept it, the better for them. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 06:21, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

that's not what R-41 said. Ethnic hatred or a separatist movement do not make for a successful secession. The point is that for the purposes of Wikipedia, we let the real world take care of the real-world problem. We are not part of the solution, we merely report on what is happening. For the time being, we report the territory as disputed because, as this talkpage illustrates so effectively, it happens to be disputed. That's all there is to say about it until there is some major development out there in the real world. --dab (𒁳) 12:34, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

It seems you missed to realize that the divorce already happend, like many serbs. And guess what? Some will never realize. They lost contact with reality, like you did. ;) --84.56.253.226 (talk) 12:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Now, if there is anything you want to say regrading the improvement of this article within WP:TALK, now would be a good time. Otherwise I think we can conclude this discussion. --dab (𒁳) 15:31, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, there is something I want to point out in the article, it is written: "On the other hand, the proclamation of independence is not recognised by the majority of UN countries" and I showed that this is just not true, see the sayings of New Zealands Prime Minister about neither recognizing nor not recognizing and about the numbers at the ICJ which are proving his sayings. How often do I have to repeat that and how long will you continue to deny the reality? --Tubesship (talk) 15:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah, so the anon is not anonymous after all. Tubesship, you should be well-aware that sock puppetry is a serious breach of policy. Stop editing as an IP if you do not want to get yourself blocked. — Emil J. 09:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Would you like show me where it is written that one is obliged to log in instead of trying to intimidate others, please? <°((((< --84.56.253.226 (talk) 12:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

You use the IP mostly for inflammatory POV-pushing on talk pages of various Kosovo-related articles. That falls under WP:GHBH. In any case, the policy page recommends you (see the lead section) to provide links between the accounts in most cases to make it easy to determine that one individual shares them and to avoid any appearance or suspicion of sockpuppetry, and you did not do that. — Emil J. 15:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

My IP is an IP and not an alternative account. Stop arguing with me and stay on topic. You use this as a distraction from the discussion. The discussion is about Kosova and the fact that not announcing a recognition does not mean an opposition towards recognition as I have shown with the numbers at the ICJ. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 16:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC) BTW: The main reason not to log in is to avoid others vandalizing my personal talk page as this happend in the past, but that it off topic, so let us stay focused.

The policy applies whenever you use two or more different identities, it does not matter whether it is a real account or only an IP address. You can see for yourself how many of the socks reported on WP:SPI are IPs. There are efficient ways of dealing with vandalism on your talk page, or any other page for that matter, see WP:Vandalism. — Emil J. 17:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

58 UN members recognize the RoK. The UN has 192 member states. You do the math. But I agree this "majority" business is misleading, because the majority of these states is completely irrelevant to the question. The point ist that Russia and China refuse to recognize it, and until that changes, there is no way forward. Kosovo is under UN administration and policed by the EU. It is by no stretch of the term in any way a sovreign or self-governed entity, nor does it remain under Serbian control. Kosovo is a disputed territory under UN administration. The two parties in the dispute are the Repubic of Serbia (recognized by all of the UN) and the Republic of Kosovo (recognized by some states but not by others). This is the "reality" and you are the one trying to deny it in favour of your fantasy about a possible future. And I say this not as a "pro-Serb" partisan. Personally, I would like nothing more than a stable and independent Kosovo if this would mean that Europe could finally be excused from having to babysit half the Balkans. --dab (𒁳) 10:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Dieter Bachmann, we live in a free world where neither Russia nor China can act like dictators over the world. They might be dictatorships at home but not when it comes to the globe, even if you may find this pity. You may try to create a dictatorship in your country if you like, but do not advocate it here on Wikipedia, please. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 13:07, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

We live in a world where the nuclear powers, i.e. the permanent members in the UN security council, call the shots on any geopolitical question. That is, you get your independent Kosovo as soon as the US, Russia, China and a bunch of Europeans agree that this is the way it's going to be. I am sorry to shatter your delusions about the "free" world where any happy-go-lucky party of irredentists can go and declare themselves independent and live happily ever after, I do not endorse or "advocate" this as the way it should be, but this happens to be the world where "we live". You may consider the Russians or the Chinese, or even the US, check as applicable, evil buggers, but that doesn't change anything. Now if there is anything you want to discuss that pertains to this article, bring it up already. --dab (𒁳) 16:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

In response to the one anonymous user's claim that Kosovo's independence was like a divorce in saying: "If there is no consensus in a marriage the consequence is divorce", my response is that even a divorce in most societies requires a legal division of assets and decision of responsibility over children between the two parties. As of yet, Kosovo is in dispute because the division of assets has not been accepted and the metaphorical divorce paper and decision of responsibility over the Serb population (like the issue of responsibility over children in a divorce) has not been agreed to by Serbia. I am not attempting to promote Serbia's case, but I am saying that Kosovo's separation is indeed like a divorce, but there is a dispute over Kosovo's seizure of the assets and population claimed by Serbia (i.e. Kosovo Polje, Serbian Orthodox monastaries, the Serb population and the territories they reside in), that is why it is a disputed separation. The fact that both Albanian and Serb nationalists don't respect each others' respective claims is why the dispute exists. On Wikipedia we are only to report what is fact, WE HAVE NO RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS IN THE ARTICLE ON THE COUNTRIES THAT SUPPORT OR OPPOSE KOSOVO'S INDEPENDENCE, WE CAN ONLY SAY THAT THEY DO OR DO NOT! SO IT IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS TO JUDGE THEM. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO JUDGE THESE COUNTRIES, GO AND TALK ON SOME BLOG OUTSIDE OF WIKIPEDIA ABOUT IT, BUT DON'T TAKE UP SPACE ON AN ENCYCLOPEDIA ABOUT IT! If fair was fair in my mind, Kosovo would be independent but Serbia would get a partition of Serb-populated Mitrovica and Kosovo Polje linked to Serbia with a roadway that would officially connect it to Serbia like Goražde is to the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it's too bad that most Albanian and Serb nationalists are too stubborn and arrogant to take an idea like this into consideration, "c'est la vie" (French: "that is life").--R-41 (talk) 01:45, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41, I do not know how much you know about Kosovas history, but maybe you do not know that Kosova already gave up, or should I better say had to give up most of its territory. Do you know that Skopje was the capital city of Kosovo? No? So look here: Kosovo Vilayet. Should Kosovo ask for reconciliation as it lost so much territory? I don't think so, neither should serbia. And no, Bosnia is not a role model, you know that it does not work well as it is a crippled state in which the entities are blocking each other. No, the Kosovars do not want anything from serbia and serbia should not want anything from Kosova. Revenge was never healthy. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 02:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41 I hate the admins-only-edit idea. It's not what Wikipedia is about and it seems like this article is not being vandalized at all. On the other hand, your divorce analogy explaines a complex issue in simple terms, and i want to praise that by saying good job. Kosovos "republic or provincial status"classification is complex since there are two sides (pro-anti seperation) that have equal reputable states supporting thier views. Kosovo is best classified currently as a DISPUTED REGION. I urge people to reflect reality in this article. Also, sensitive issues without solid supporting (issues that are hard to understand and are twisted by the two opposing sides, Albaniand and Serb, respectivly ) need not be added, or their prominance in the article should be kept in check by the admins.Mike Babic (talk) 03:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

the divorce metaphor is a good one, but this isn't about Kosovo the territory divorcing form Central Serbia the territory, it is Serbia's ethnic Albanians divorcing Serbia's ethnic Serbs. And it is one ugly divorce. Now Kosovo the territory in this simile represents the divorcing couple's kids, or wealth. The Kosovo question is, then, who gets to keep what. Does the beaten wife walk away with all the money? Is the property shared equally? Or according to some key (you keep southern Kosovo, we keep northern Kosovo; you get 90% of the territory, we retain 10%)? In a divorce, these things are decided by a court of law. A divorce doesn't work like "I hate you, I'm leaving you, oh and I'm keeping all your money", but most of our Albanian editors seem to think that this is exactly how it works. Now of course the metaphor breaks down because there is no universally accepted court of law. The closest thing the world has is the UN, and it is precisely for this reason that Wikipedia will begin treating the Republic of Kosovo on equal footing with any other independent state from the exact moment as there is a UN resolution doing the same: not before, and not any later than this. Counting individual countries recognizing or not recognizing is like polling the couple's friends to see whether the husband or the wife is to blame. So what if the wife has more friends saying the husband is a bastard, or vice versa? It is still the court of law that has the final word on who walks away with the kids and the money. If (if!) the ICJ endorses the secession, this may be a first step (first step!) in a process towards a UN resolution recognizing the RoK. Please. This will take time. Wikipedia will list Kosovo as a disputed territory as long as things are up in the air, Albanian protests notwithstanding, and it will treat the RoK as an independent country on equal footing with Israel as soon as we see the UN resolution, Serbian protests notwithstanding. This is what npov policy dictates, and no amount of ethnic bickering on talkpages is going to have any effect on it. It is really futile to keep arguing about this. --dab (𒁳) 11:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your compliment about my metaphor. And no, I do not think that any side owns anything to the other side. See what I wrote about the huge loss of territory of Kosova Vilayet. The same goes to Germany as they lost their eastern parts to Poland, Königsberg even to russia. But revisionism is never the way to a peaceful future. We do not ask for reconciliation, nor should the serbian side dare to ask anything from the Kosovars. Just let the wounds heal. You know, time is a healer. If divorce is accepted. Unconditionally. --Tubesship (talk) 16:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with User:dab. NPOV policy is essential and we have no right on Wikipedia to declare who deserves anything. I see hypocrisy in the one nationalistic statement made by the anon user who said "the Kosovars do not want anything from serbia and serbia should not want anything from Kosova. Revenge was never healthy." But it is the Albanian nationalists' intention to get revenge on the Serbian government by separating, as are the actions of most nationalists. Why? Because if their goal was not revenge they would have cooperated to sooth relations between Albanians and Serbs to deliver constructive justice, no matter what the denials by the Serbian government and Serb nationalists, because they would have the moral high ground to not incite further revenge by alienating Serbs in Kosovo. But that was not and never has been the goal of most Albanian nationalists, just as reconciliation has never been the goal of most Serb nationalists. Nationalism is about separation, segregation, and assimilation - even in the most noblest of causes, this causes dissent amongst those who do not want to assimilate or those who do not want to be segregated from another group of people, this is why nationalism commonly leads to war. Like I said, even the most benevolent nationalists like Mahatma Gandhi failed to unite the people of colonial India because there was little will amongst most Muslim people and Sikh people to be assimilated into a Hindu-dominated society, thus conflict has since exploded. To me, nationalism is a naive and immature ideology, and I used to be a Canadian nationalist so I know this. And to those who claim that nationalism can provide social justice, why not apply social justice to all people in the world rather than just one nation? There is no rational and non-emotional answer to this, only excuses. So nationalism is inherently not about social justice it is about separation, segregation, and assimilation, that's why it causes conflict amongst groups, And that's why Albanian and Serb nationalists; Indian and Pakistani nationalists, Canadian and Quebecois nationalists; and Hutu and Tutsi nationalists (in Rwanda) have been in conflict and vicious cycles of revenge, because nationalism's nature incites such conflict and revenge. The solution to each of these conflicts is to get both sides to STOP demanding revenge or "retributive justice" as some people sugarcoat revenge as; and instead have rehabilitative justice of both sides recognizing that they both have made mistakes that agitated both sides that started the conflict and hatred in the first place. Separation and segregation does not solve the problem. In addition, it does not matter whether either side is fully and immediately committed to such action, it takes time, but in the meantime, revenge MUST BE STOPPED. If they aren't willing to stop murdering each other, that's why peacekeepers go in, to stop their immoral actions. Now that that is said, I have described why I and hopefully others should question the judgement and justifications presented by nationalists and to understand why the dispute in Kosovo is not a local phenomenon but an international phenomenon caused by the factional nature of nationalism itself. And lastly Balkan nationalists should not feel sorry for themselves, they could have lived together if they wished to, their country was not in the worst shape in the world, it was better off than many other countries. But they wanted revenge of old disputes that took up the world's time and attention to solve and prevented the world from rallying resources to stop the Rwandan Genocide that was a conflict that was on the verge of exploding in a country where the poverty facing all of its people explained why radical ideas could easily catch on. 800,000 to 1,000,000 people died in the Rwandan genocide (that's about 20% of the total estimated population of Rwanda at the time) and the man who attempted to stop it, Romeo Dallaire says it happened because people were so distracted by the Balkans wars and by racist views of black Rwandans being less worthy of help than white ex-Yugoslavians. Dallaire is correct, the Rwandan Genocide could have been stopped if the wars in the former Yugoslavia had not erupted over petty differences and opportunism of nationalist political leaders in the former Yugoslavia. So I say that the arrogant and bigoted Balkans nationalists of any faction deserve no respect, only the victims and the families of the victims of those who actually suffered in the Balkans wars do deserve respect.--R-41 (talk) 02:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

You mentioned Mahatma Gandhi and indeed we had our Gandhi called Rugova. We tried everything to reach peacefully an agreement to overcome the apartheid, we tried it for many years without violence and only as a last resort Kosovars began to fight. This fight was for freedom and NATO helped us to free Kosova. What you try is revisionism as it is now a decade that Kosova was freed, so it's time to get over it, you won't turn the clock back. And never say again, we did not try it peacefully at first. --Tubesship (talk) 03:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to say one thing, since this is not a disscusion blog about poltics. Majority of Serbs hated Milosevic, for exaple see the protests in Serbia in 1996-1997 BEFORE the Kosovo War. Milosevicess key secret police advisor during the Kosovo war, Jovica Stanisic, was a CIA AGENT as this link will prove. . My point. I studied how the world works and i figured most of events in the Balkans and why they happened. Serbs are not to blame, so dont use wikipedia to attack a nation of people. Kosovo is a disputed region and should be treated as such. Also, please take a look at my evidence which is numerous, and remember when editing that the CIA was calling the shots in the ex-Yugoslavia and not the Serbian people who had little or no control in the political matter.Mike Babic (talk) 08:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

To Tubeship, I said that nationalism AS AN IDEOLOGY LEADS to violence because it involves separation, segregation, and assimilation of human beings into artificial factions and some people who do not identify with such factions do not want to be part of them, the solution then is partition or war. Nationalists MAY initially be peaceful but their ideology can never bring social justice for humanity. India's nationalism began as peaceful and now it is violent against Pakistan just as Pakistani nationalism initially tried to be peaceful and indeed initially got a peaceful partition from India, but there was a dispute over Kashmir. Even Germany's nationalism began as a liberal nationalism meant to respect human rights, but as everyone knows it mutated into a genocidal regime led by the Nazis. And in the words of a notable refugee from Nazi-run Germany, Albert Einstein, "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." By the way Tubeship, your use of the word "we", who does that refer to, "we" mean every Kosovar, does it mean every Albanian Kosovar, does it mean every human. Did every Kosovar, Albanian Kosovar, or every human "try it peacefully" at first? How can you assume such things? Besides Albanian and Serb Kosovars hated each other for decades, it is a documented fact in Tito-era studies acknowledged by the United Nations, ever since Albania became independent, Albanians and Serbs have quarreled over Kosovo. And as I so admire Gandhi I say that his refusal to support any act of violence in response to violence is notable. It is unfortunate that Kosovo's Gandhi, Rugova could not work things out, and I admire him for trying, but like Gandhi, one good person cannot truly control nationalism, nationalism ends up controlling society and the leaders must harness what already exists. In my country in 1995, Canadians and Quebeckers witnessed in a referendum on independence for Quebec the Quebec nationalists beginning the campaign saying that an independent Quebec would be inclusive, but when people like Aboriginals and English Canadians did not want to be part of an independent Quebec the campaign turned ugly. At the end, the Quebec nationalist leader, Jacques Parizeau, who had claimed at the beginning of the campaign that Quebec would be inclusive, blamed the defeat of the independence "yes" side on "money and the ethnic vote" and promised that French Quebeckers would eventually have their "revenge" on Canada. That was a change in a few MONTHS! So, inclusive nationalism commonly degenerates to exclusive nationalism, because the only truly inclusive nation is humankind. Also it is NEVER TIME to get over and forget mistakes, it is only time to acknowledge them, and find peaceful means to ensure that they do not happen again and get over old hatreds.--R-41 (talk) 11:52, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I will get back on focus, but here are some quotes for some nationalists to remember:

"To him in whom love dwells, the whole world is but one family." Buddha.

"Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first." Charles de Gaulle, leader of the Free French forces in World War II.

"Borders are scratched across the hearts of men

By strangers with a calm, judicial pen,

And when the borders bleed we watch with dread

The lines of ink across the map turn red." Marya Mannes

"Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched." Guy de Maupassant.

"It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens." Baha'u'llah, founder of the Bahá'í Faith.--R-41 (talk) 12:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41, I see that and why you as a Canadian are biased when it comes to Kosova as you link its case to the referendum on independence for Quebec. Anything else than this bias cannot explain your far-fetched implication of Kosovas struggle to overcome apartheid with nationalism a la Nazi Germany. You say: “Also it is NEVER TIME to get over and forget mistakes, it is only time to acknowledge them, and find peaceful means to ensure that they do not happen again and get over old hatreds”, but would you dare to say this to the Holocaust survivors, too? Get your facts straight, there was a good reason why serbs were bombed out of Kosova by NATO. So dear R-41, stop equating victims and perpetrators and to Babic: Stop your conspiracy theory about the CIA, they were not responsible for the apartheid regime in Kosova but serbs were. --Tubesship (talk) 12:42, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes there are "good reasons" why Serbs were bombed. Two words come to mind, Camp Bondsteel and Kosovo mineral deposits. BTW, this should be added to the article. This is the citation, dare I ask someone who claims to be free from bias to enter this into the article. I would greatly appreciate the effort since I'm not sure that I could add it without being biased a little since I'm a citizen of Serbia. http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=l8437&PHPSESSID=83ni8uleaj70borm6b1ivh3nq4Mike Babic (talk) 18:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Tubesship stop saying "dare to say" to me. I am free to say whatever I want, I dare to challenge ignorance and ignorant views. As for your question for Holocaust survivors, I say a Holocaust survivor has the right to hate Nazism for its maniacal genocidal nationalism, racism, and totalitarianism. For those reasons I too spit on the Nazis' beliefs. But NO ONE, and yes, not even a holocaust survivor should promote hatred or revenge against Germans or Germany as a nation. I understand that they should be furious at what happened, but nationalist revenge against all Germans is not the solution because not all Germans supported the Holocaust and many Jews were Germans themselves. I say punish the true criminals, the ones' who did the killings and the beatings, not an entire group of people to whom a smaller group was associated. If you hate the Socialist Party of Serbia because of Slobodan Milosevic's actions and the party's policies and want people from that party punished for what they did, I would stand alongside you. NATO had the right to attack Serb military aggressors who were attacking and killing Albanian civilians. The UN mandate over Kosovo was the only viable solution to prevent the violence from continuing, and I think that the mandate should have been in place longer before any decision on independence was made, to let tensions sooth and allow a rational solution to the problems be discussed (such as a partitioned Kosovo as I mentioned earlier). Milosevic was a tyrant who needed to be stopped as well as the Serb ultranationalists. But if you want Serbia as a nation to pay for what you seem to claim all of Serbs supported, I stand against you. Tubesship, you made a prejudicial assumption that because I am a Canadian I cannot possibly understand what the war is like. Already I can see the segregated view of the world that you see. I knew an Albanian from Kosovo who told me of the horrors of the terrorism perpetrated by Serb nationalist paramilitaries in his village. They ordered everyone to leave their house in five minutes, or they and their house would be torched and burned town with them in it. That is horrible, so don't tell me that I am an ignorant fool, I learned of it through what an Albanian told me. But why then do you have superior judgement? Did you witness the war crimes in person yourself? If you did witness them yourself, I would respect your anger for being legitimately caused by personal grief, and for that I would be sorry for you. But if you did not, then you are just like me, a person who listened to someone else describing it. I do not speak for all Canadians on everything just as you cannot speak for all Kosovars or all Albanian Kosovars. Remember that the Kosovo Serbs are officially Kosovar citizens, you cannot ignore their wishes unless you wish for a segregated society.--R-41 (talk) 19:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41 So you write you would dare to say: “Also it is NEVER TIME to get over and forget mistakes, it is only time to acknowledge them, and find peaceful means to ensure that they do not happen again and get over old hatreds” to a Holocaust survivor?! Ok, I invite you to come with me, I know an old Jew who lost his whole family in Auschwitz. DARE to tell him that and look how you would feel by doing so. I don't think you could do as I think you are a humane person. --Tubesship (talk) 20:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that destruction of Serbian churches should be added to the article since it's clearly a significant event and the fact that it's not in the artivle highlights that the article is pro-Albanian.Mike Babic (talk) 04:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC) (Ctrl-click)">http://www.emperors-clothes.com/churchpics/list.htmMike Babic (talk) 04:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

---

First of all, I do not think the site “The Emperor’s New Clothes” (last update on December 22, 2008) should be considered a mainstream, scholarly or NPOV site. And second, it should be noted that a great part of the Orthodox churches describe on “Jared Israel”’s list are reconstructions made after the death of Josip Tito, and mainly during the Serb nationalist Milosevic’s (1988-2000) era. --BalkanWalker (talk) 03:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

guys, this section has long left anything resembling WP:TALK compliance. The long and short of it is, this is a territorial dispute. The Serbs and the Albanians want the same piece of land, known as Kosovo. It is a comparatively small piece of land, and of little importance geopolitically, it is just one of several cases we keep under Category:Disputed territories. This isn't about who bombed whom, it is about who is going to get jurisdiction over the territory in question, not more, not less. As simple as the monkeys competing for the waterhole in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Wikipedia certainly isn't going to make any statement as to who is "right" in a case like that. --dab (𒁳) 15:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Is North Kosovo still “out” of the republic of Kosovo government?

People editing this article should find out if there are Pristina-commanded customs control and/or Kosovo Protection Service people north of the Ibar river nowadays. If this is the case, we should alter the first paragraph description of Kosovo.--BalkanWalker (talk) 03:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo was admitted to IMF

I don’t know if this info could be put on the article somehow, but anyway, here’s the link of the news.--BalkanWalker (talk) 03:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

IMF officials declined to comment Tuesday, because the results hadn't yet been made public. -- at least wait for the IMF to actually issue some sort of statement. --dab (𒁳) 15:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

It already did, on Friday: [1]. — Emil J. 10:05, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Then it should definitely be noted in the article. I agree this is a further step towards international recognition. --dab (𒁳) 10:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Who cares if YOU agree? Oh, I forgot, this article is your possession, dear Dieter Bachmann from Switzerland. --84.56.239.92 (talk) 11:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Can this article be any more pro Serbian povish?

Please compare it to the Serbian Wikipedia. Even they are not more pro Serbian. How comes English Wikipedia does represent the official Serbian side? --84.56.239.92 (talk) 11:50, 15 May 2009 (UTC)