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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Richard Eales (talk | contribs) at 18:43, 7 December 2005 (→Man! Such an argument this has to turn out to be). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Old talk at Talk:Darth Vader/Archive 1, Talk:Darth Vader/Archive 2, Talk:Darth Vader/Archive 3, and Talk:Darth Vader/Archive 4. Talk:Anakin Skywalker/Archive contains archived talk from an article that has since been merged to this one, including some discussion of the merge itself. — Phil Welch 02:22, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC), 21:56, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Presence in The Unifying Force

I made this change, but it was reverted, so I'll suggest it here. Right now, the article contains an incredibly major spoiler for the NJO at the end of the "Expanded Universe" spoiler by mentioning "Onimi, the true Supreme Overlord of the Yuuzhan Vong." Since the purpose of the article is to talk about Vader and the identity of the Supreme Overlord is by no means necessary to do so, wouldn't it make more sense to simply say "the Supreme Overlord of the Yuuzahn Vong" and avoid spoiling one of the better twists in the series for any unsuspecting readers reading about a character who lived, in the galaxy, 25 years earlier? I imagine there's quite a few of those users out there, especially with RotS and the Vader book being released. --Dws90 06:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I concur—it's an unnecessary detail in this context anyway. Removed. — Phil Welch 21:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I changed this article

Just thought you should know. -Silence 09:20, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And I support these changes. The Wookieepedian 09:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well I don't. I hate them. I'd revert them, but I'd probably accuse myself of starting an edit war if I did that. I'm such an asshole. Wow, 4:30 AM already? The lengthy, heated debates in which I go to ridiculous lengths to defend my revision and we have a dramatic, epic battle over the fate of the universe, or this article at least, will have to wait until I wake up. 'night. -Silence 09:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
'night :P The Wookieepedian 09:29, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Questions

  1. Should we reference the "Darth Vader" in Back to the Future?
  2. This must be the only Star Wars article capable of being an FA. What do we need, another PR?

igordebraga [[User talk:Igordebraga|*]] 19:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC) (this DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE!)[reply]

  • I've found that the best way to get an article FAd is to keep nominating it for FA until it gets FAd. Featured Article nominees get much more effective, thorough, and important advice on how to make the necessary changes to become FAd than Peer Reviewed articles ever do. But there are some obvious improvements to be made before we should go to that step, in my view; for one, the text needs some copyediting, and we need to cut back on the block movie-script quotations both on this page and on Anakin Skywalker; quoting them in the context of prose paragraphs is always preferable when possible, since they break up the page layout. -Silence 20:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've been working for FA status on this for awhile, but as for splitting the article, please don't do that without a consensus beforehand. I'm reverting. — Phil Welch 22:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Let's take a vote then. The Wookieepedian 22:14, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Let's actually discuss the issue first, okay? — Phil Welch 22:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly, let's discuss this for as long and in as much detail as it takes. But until we come to a final decision, let's keep this page in the form that the consensus has established it be in: so far, you're the only person who has opposed splitting the article, whereas have gone out of their way to specifically endorse the change: User:Silence, User:The Wookieepedian, User:igordebraga, and User:DivineLady.
This is not to say that we won't revert the article to just one page after you've made your compelling arguments, but until you do get at least one person on your side, I think we should at least give this new style of article a bit more of a try and see what more people think on the matter (it'll be harder for editors of Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker to see what the new, proposed version is if it's buried in the Edit History, whereas most frequenters of this page have already seen the version you're advocating many times and are quite familiar with it). Get at least one other supporter for your version before reverting the page again; I wouldn't revert the page right now if I was acting unilaterally rather than with a pretty clear approval from the page's readers and editors, so I'd appreciate it if you do the same.
I understand that there have been many past discussions regarding this issue, but the page has changed dramatically in a lot of ways since those discussions, so it can't be assumed that all their decisions still apply: for example, if there was a discussion to merge the "Anakin" and "Darth" articles into one because both were quite short, that discussion no longer applies, since the opposite is now the case. Let's establish a new consensus for what this article should be like now, rather than starting from the assumption that tradition is probably best. We live in a changing world! (And I'm digressing, I'll stop. :3) -Silence 22:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting the article

Alright, since this is the article being split, let's discuss the split here. I'm against it: you don't split a biography article just because the person changes his name. Yes, the article is long. Yes, there are two infoboxes—there should arguably only be one, but enough of the information changes to warrant having both so I don't really mind it. Malcolm X is a long article too, and I don't see anyone trying to split that for every single time the guy changed his name. This has been argued time and time again in the talk archives. If you want my personal opinion, the idea of splitting the article does make sense from a fanboy point of view, especially if you're trying to push Copperchair's bizarre idea that Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker were literally two different people (which goes against the whole point of the movie if you ask me). But from an encyclopedic point of view and the general standards used by Wikipedia as a whole, it's a bad idea.

Really, one of the biggest problems with Wikipedia is that articles like this have a systematic bias—only fanboys want to edit them, and the articles drift further and further away from the somewhat different standards used by Wikipedia as a whole because the serious editors are busy writing about the military history of Canada or whatever. There's nothing wrong with fan wikis, but Wikipedia isn't a fan wiki. One biography article per person, please. — Phil Welch 22:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the above, let the danm thing be long, but don't split it. —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 23:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You make some interesting points. But remember one thing: This is not a true "biography" article (it's got the "graphy", but "bio" requires life), it is a description of made-up events in the fictional life of a character from a very popular movie and its spin-offs. Thus, it should not be automatically assumed that every aspect of a normal human being's biographical information is to be treated exactly as the "life" of a made-up character. I agree that we should be consistent in every way where it doesn't decrease the article's quality; but where we seem to disagree is on one or more of the following three points: (a) that being exactly like normal biographical articles in this case would worsen the article in this case, making total consistency a bad thing rather than a good thing. (b) that it's completely consistent with normal "biographical" articles to not have all the information on a single page. (c) that it's not worth sacrificing readability and article quality for the sake of consistency. I'm not sure which of those points you'd disagree with, but I agree with all three of them.

Now, to really get into the meat of this. The split between "Anakin Skywalker" and "Darth Vader" is not just based on the switching of a name. It is universally acknowledged, both by the creators of the character and by the fans, that there is a massive, irrevocable, fundamental difference between "Anakin Skywalker" and "Darth Vader". Whether this difference is merely psychological (in terms of his "abandoning his humanity" and becoming a servant of the Empire) and physical (in terms of his being encased in his life-support suit), or whether there is some quintessential, spiritual aspect of it too, and perhaps even a genuine destruction of the being known as Anakin Skywalker (at least until Vader's redemption), is a subject of debate, but the line drawn between Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader could hardly be clearer. To characterize this difference as "just a name change", even going so far as to compare it to Malcolm Little changing his name to Malcolm X, clearly ignores the entire subject of this debate and attempts to ignore all the facts involved in this dispute. This is no mere name change, my friend. (Also, your example misses the mark, because Malcolm X actually isn't a long article, in any way. If you want some real long articles, I could give you a nice list to tide you over 'til Christmas. :)) -Silence 23:33, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to when he changed his name to El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz and renounced black nationalism, which is a better analogy. Furthermore, I don't want to further a POV bias on when either name is appropriate—I wrote an endnote about that awhile back. For that reason it's probably better to split the biography section differently than it's split now, and possibly shorten it—long plot summaries tend to be out of favor. — Phil Welch 23:58, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I'd appreciate it if you don't implicitly accuse me of being a fanboy, which I'm not. I think the Star Wars series is honestly quite lacking, and Vader could have been a much more interesting character, despite his cultural significance. (In fact, if anything, I'd say that it's "fanboy" leanings which have caused this article not to be split, as people overly eager to endorse their POV that Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are exactly the same person, just at different times in his life, refuse to allow the article to be split even when it will directly benefit the article and help the readers out. But the most blatant "fanboyism-conquering-encyclopedicness" event that I've seen is the state of the Anakin Skywalker article when I first arrived at it, where the entire article was nothing but a soft redirect with a spoiler notice. Going to such absurd lengths to protect people from a spoiler is clearly unencyclopedic and biased in favor of people who'd be scared of being spoiled—and for that matter, clearly vastly inconvenient and bothersome to most people looking for information on Anakin Skywalker! -Silence 23:33, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the article was split originally. After a long discussion you can read in the talk archives, the page was merged together, originally at Anakin Skywalker, but later moved to Darth Vader with a genuine hard redirect that was ultimately replaced with a soft redirect. — Phil Welch 23:58, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not surprised that it was split originally (since it's pretty consistent with common sense, 90% of people who search for "Anakin Skywalker" on Wikipedia are specifically looking for descriptions and biographies of Anakin alone, with links to Vader for details on that persona, not an obnoxious and inconvenient soft redirect to a general Darth Vader page that's far too unfocused and overlong to be of much use). -Silence 00:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • And I know that there's been a lot of back and forth on this issue in the past. But that doesn't make any difference, I'm sorry to say. There could have been a hundred back-and-forth debates on whether Cher should be at "Cher" or "Cher (entertainer)", but it wouldn't change the fact that Cher should be at Cher. The same applies to any dispute; if there is an obvious solution to every problem, inconvenience, and disagreement involved which would be the best of all worlds and would solve every problem involved, I couldn't give less of a damn what people have argued before. :) Make your arguments now, don't rely on vague allusions to out-of-date debates. -Silence 00:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Generally when something has been disputed for a long time, you join the discussion and work for a consensus instead of just ignoring everyone else. That's the civil thing to do. — Phil Welch 01:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Please heed WP:CIVIL by not repeatedly accusing people of incivility just because they disagree with you. Rules-lawyering is not an excuse for breaching Wikiquette or not assuming good faith. :3 (See how it feels?)
      • There was no ongoing discussion when I got to this page; all conversation on the subject had died out a while ago. I started up the discussion by making my edit, and the edit was intended to propose a new possible version for the page and prompt further discussion on how best to handle the Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker problem, since the situation at the time was clearly unacceptable. Your repeated accusations and complaints about a perfectly valid way to organize the article (that has proven itself surprisingly popular) and to propose a new topic for discussion are not appreciated. :3 -Silence 01:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Having Anakin Skywalker just be a soft redirect to the already-bloated Darth Vader would be like having Onslaught (comics) be a soft redirect to Professor X; there may be disputes over how closely-linked the two personas of the same individual are, but there's absolutely a clear enough distinction to allow for distinct articles on each persona/stage/psyche, especially when there's more than enough information on both topics to be quite expansive and large articles on their own!) -Silence 23:33, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar with comics, and in any case my original points still stand. Comics articles are edited by comics fans: systematic bias. — Phil Welch 23:58, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh good grief. Accusing everyone else in the world of bias and fanboyism doesn't change the fact that your option is the only biased, inconsistent, fanboyish one here. Open your eyes to what Wikipedia is, not what you wish it was. -Silence 00:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you are going to continue being incivil I'm not going to respond to you. — Phil Welch 01:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • If you're going to continue accusing me of being incivil this conversation is going to continue going in circles. What is this, kindergarten? Respond to my points, if you have any counter-arguments, rather than continuing the irrelevant and ad hominem accusations of incivility where there is none. I didn't accuse you of "incivility" or start threatening to abandon the discussion when you accused me of being a simpering, ignorant fanboy—I provided counter-arguments and addressed your arguments thoroughly. That you refuse to provide me with the same level of analysis and discourse that I did with you, and to assume the same good faith for me that I did for you, is disappointing. -Silence 01:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • The dismissive tone you're using isn't getting you anwhere. The reason we're running in circles isn't because I'm criticizing you, it's because you're ignoring the criticism and refusing to respond to anything I say. If you truly believe that I'm conveying a "combative tone" even though I'm not, then why not follow the advice given on Wikipedia:No personal attacks and ignore my tone and insulting phrases only, responding to the content of what I've said? You're doing the opposite, responding only to my tone and ignoring everything I'm actually saying, the result of which is that we can make no progress whatsoever in anything. I can't change how you choose to interpret my tone (only what my tone actually is), but you can change how you choose to respond to it. -Silence 04:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I also am a strong advocate for consistency in Wikipedia, and think we should only be inconsistent where it directly serves our purposes by improving our articles and presentation. But despite all that, I believe strongly that this article needs to be subdivided into two articles. I base this on, in addition to my above arguments, the following:

  • (1) The Darth Vader article is far, far too long with the information from Anakin Skywalker incorporated into it. Note that at the [Vader peer review], much of the subject for discussion was how bloated the article is, and if this article was brought up for FC, I would bet a frillion dollars that it would be rejected chiefly on the grounds that it's far, far too large as-is, exactly as Palpatine is being rejected right now! -Silence 23:33, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, and much of the discussion was about how it wasn't really that long. That said, it's redundant to repeat plot summary information in character bios so I'm probably going to shorten it. That complaint's taken care of, let's move on. — Phil Welch 23:58, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • It is not "taken care of"; an empty promise to excessively trim a bloated article is not the immediate solution which this vastly better alternative is. Removing valuable plot information that is directly relevant to Vader (feel free to remove the stuff that's not) is not an improvement. There's absolutely no reason not to include all the relevant information on a quasi-satellite article that anyone can use to see all the details of Vader's early life. I'd even put up a tag on the top of Anakin Skywalker saying "This article is about the early life of the character Darth Vader. For the later life and analysis of the character in general, see Darth Vader., if that wasn't an awkward way to handle things, and if that wasn't quite unnecessary from the description of the pages themselves, and if that wouldn't violate the point of having "spoiler warnings" near the top of each page. -Silence 00:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • If it's "excessively bloated", trim the bloat. There are multiple sections where information is repeated—removing redundancies alone should bring us down some more. Furthermore, the general consensus on Wikipedia in general is to avoid detailed plot summaries entirely. I'm not sure how to apply that here but it bears consideration. Further, if you're going to accuse me of empty promises, see my previous complaints about your incivility. — Phil Welch 01:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only some of the bloat is worth being trimmed. The rest is only "bloated" because it's valuable information being packed into one page that should be allowed room to breathe in more than one page. What we should clearly do is divide it into two articles, as has been suggested many times in the past, and then focus on trimming down both articles to a manageable size where all the useful information and none of the useless information is provided, while also adding new useful, interesting, and important information as it arises. -Silence 01:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Continue allowing the articles to expand as long as more relevant information and interesting and useful new sections continue to be added, continue to trim off irrelevant details, and stop trying to choke the life out of the article by dictating that for some reason this article can never have satellite or sister articles, even though thousands of other Wikipedia articles do, and are vastly better off for it, and even though there's a clear and undeniable benefit in terms of usefulness, NPOV, and clarity which is attained by making Anakin Skywalker/"early life of Darth Vader" a daughter article of Darth Vader, rather than making it an absurd and inconvenient and totally unnecessary glorified spoiler-warning and permanent substub. -Silence 01:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not a substub, it's a redirect. This article has satellite and sister articles and refers to them constantly—i.e. the other Star Wars articles and their plot summaries. — Phil Welch 02:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Those are not satellite articles of Darth Vader, they're satellite articles of Star Wars; they're sister articles of Darth Vader, perhaps, but Darthy has no daughter articles currently. Anakin Skywalker would make the perfect one, allowing us to expand on a very important and distinct aspect of his biography and attributes that we would have much less time to address on the main Darth Vader page, and further providing the advantage of not having to create a useless soft-redirect page that does nothing but say "there's a spoiler here. if you don't like spoilers, don't click here." If they didn't want information on Anakin Skywalker, they wouldn't have searched for Anakin Skywalker in the first place, and how is a reader to possibly know whether or not he will want to know about a spoiler before he hears it?! Spoiler warnings are meant to be lines on pages, they are explicitly stated to never supposed to be pages in themselves, see Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. -Silence 04:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • By your reasoning, whenever any article becomes large, it means that we should start deleting information from it until it's not large anymore, even when it's large because it should be larged, because there's a huge body of significant information on the subject matter involved (as there undeniably is for Darth Vader!). -Silence 01:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree with you that we should split large articles into satellite articles. In effect, this has already been done for us, as the articles on the individual films have plot summaries we can refer to. — Phil Welch 02:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Fair enough, but those aren't satellite articles for this character. Transfer information there which doesn't directly relate to Darth Vader, but eventually, inevitably, the article will bulk up again with the vast wealth of information on Darth Vader out there, and then we'll have to make the change anyway. Best to get it out of the way now, having articles that are a tad short is always a better editing environment than having articles that are a tad long, since it encourages valuable new contributions, whereas long articles or articles that "are already long enough" discourage them, and are the poorer for it. -Silence 04:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes, in effect. A detailed biography of Darth Vader is just going to be an abridged restating of the plot summaries anyway, because he's the main character of the series. So we summarize the plot summaries and refer to them—as I've done. — Phil Welch 05:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • (2) There is an enormous precedent for, and a great detail of common sense in, creating sub-articles, satellite articles, sister/daughter/mother articles, or whatever you prefer to call them, when an article becomes too large. See, for example, Hugo Chavez and Early life of Hugo Chavez—even better, see the entire Charles Darwin series of articles (including Charles Darwin's education), where every stage in the man's life has its own, distinct article, and the Darwin page itself is nothing but a hub and a summary of all those articles! Obviously the Darth Vader page isn't so bloated that a measure that extreme is necessary (though it may be necessary for Palpatine), but at least one article-division is without a shadow of a doubt necessary. And the most obvious way to divide this article, such that two high-quality articles can be made on both sides of the divide, is to have one article for Early life of Darth Vader and one for Darth Vader. Well, guess what—we don't have to use such an awkward, obnoxious title as "Early life of Darth Vader", because there's an extremely clear, obvious, and indisputable difference in names, titles, actors, roles, etc. between Darth in his early life and in his later life! "Anakin Skywalker" is just shorthand for what would be a very clumsy, hard-to-find article title like "Early life of X". Win-win! -Silence 23:33, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is a relative paucity of information about the life of Darth Vader—six films, the novelizations of those books, and a handful of comics and novels. There's simply less to tell, and with plot summary removed, the article will be a more manageable length. — Phil Welch 23:58, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't see how any of that has anything to do with anything I said above, much less refuting a single one of the vital points. There's plenty to tell about Vader's fictional life, and, in fact, I expect the current sections to only grow larger and larger in the future as more and more fascinating information accumulates and things are set in their proper context better.
    • What? What does good faith have to do with whether you think non-movies are parts of the Star Wars franchise? Would you please just drop the Wikipedia catchphrases altogether, they're really starting to pile up and stink the place up, and we've both already read the same Wikipedia policy and guideline pages by now, so repeating them back and forth doesn't do anyone any good. I miss real conversations—Wikipedia conversations are like political debates, full of buzzwords and standard escape-clause responses to everything. So tiresome. -Silence 04:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wikipedia articles inherently tend towards growth, not shrinkage. Planning for the future requires that we split the article now, when it's already bloated, rather than making stopgap attempts to shorten it in trivial ways that will inevitably end up either being completely ineffective at shortening the article significantly, or completely ineffective at preserving the important information in the article, and moreover such efforts will prove largely futile when even more important information surfaces, on both Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader. Feel free to trim unimportant areas of the articles, but do it while the two articles are split, since clearly there's no way to split them to such an extent that they'll without reducing the article quality and usefulness. -Silence 00:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • You seem to be surprisingly willing to ignore what's best for the article in favor of what will enforce your specific POV that there is a smooth, undilineated and undistinguishable course of events encompassing Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader's life. This sort of excessive POV-based overreaction does not belong on Wikipedia; people get the point that the two are sort of one person, going to such insane lengths to cram a clearly unmanageably large topic into one article is a mark of article bias, not of thoughtful and efficient helpfulness to our readers. The Darth Vader article is almost 30 pages long (on my resolution). I propose a fantastic way to solve all POV problems with this article and Anakin Skywalker, that will furthermore fix the article length of both Darth Vader (which is far too long, unfixably so) and Anakin Skywalker (which is too short to exist, and will have to be converted into a hard redirect if left as-is). -Silence 00:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm not trying to enforce a specific POV. I actually think the article is better my way. Please read Wikipedia:Assume good faith, Wikipedia:Civility, and m:Don't be a dick and heed their advice. Now, if you want a clearly and neutrally delineated article that's short and doesn't repeat information available elsewhere on the wiki, here's what you do: you summarize the biography sections and refer to the plot summaries of the movie articles themselves. — Phil Welch 01:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • And responding to my honest concerns, questions, and responses by accusming me of being incivil, saying that I'm assuming bad faith, and calling me a dick is not being an incivil bad-faith-assuming dick? How about this: I apologize for offending you with any of my above statements, and assure you that 'twasn't intentional; you stop rules-lawyering and dodging every point I make while launching a series of ad hominem smokebombs to cover your tracks, and let's make this an actual exchange of ideas and discussion of what best to do, not a dance of rhetorical tactics and exchanged jabs. Much more interesting that way. -Silence 01:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
            • If you're willing to be more civil in the future, I would gladly discuss this with you calmly and rationally. That's what I've said all along here. But you're not doing a good job of being civil so far. — Phil Welch 02:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • And you're doing a worse job, constantly lobbying accusations of incivility at me no matter what I say. At least I'm being incivil while also listening and responding to what you say. You're just being incivil while being incivil. :f -Silence 04:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • There is absolutely no similariy between El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz and Anakin Skywalker. (1) there is not enough information and not a long enough period in Malcolm X's life at this time for an article on that name alone to be feasible. If there was already an article about that period in Malcolm X's life which was quite lengthy and stood very well on its own, it would be perfectly acceptable to change probably a very awkward, obnoxious name into a name that summarizes that time period perfectly by being the name he used at that time. none of those requirements are met by Malcolm X, and all of them are met by Darth Vader. (2) the Malcolm X article is rather short, considering how much he did and how much of an impact he had with his life. the Darth Vader article is ridiculously long. end of stor. (3) Malcolm X is a real person, and his life is a description of actual events that occurred. Darth Vader is a fictional character, and his "life" is a description of made-up events from a story that people wrote. You're comparing real apples to fictional oranges. (4) Anakin Skywalker is a soft redirect, which is unacceptably inconvenient and unencyclopedically fanboy-serving. (Spoiler warnings are bad enough, as Britannica would never bother with such things, but they at least are only a single bar which can easily be ignored; having a whole page for a spoiler warning here is beyond unnecessary, in every way.) El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz is a true redirect, which causes no inconvenience to anyone searching for him, and spoilers are totally unrelated to that name. Drawing analogies won't help your argument at all unless the things you're comparing really are analogous. -Silence 00:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

On another note, you were concerned about people being able to see the split versions. By linking to specific versions in history, we can do that. Anakin Skywalker (split) and Darth Vader (split). — Phil Welch 23:58, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • My objection was not only that not having it on the main page would make it difficult for people to see the versions being proposed, but also that people visiting the page would be left unaware of any dispute occurring, and that people would have no way of editing or revising the proposed versions to meet various minor objections that are raised about them, or otherwise improve the pages. I solved the former issue by putting tags up on the Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader pages, and solved the latter issue by putting the two proposed pages up on subpages, where anyone can freely edit them if they have contributions to make to what will probably be the future face of the Darth Vader article. -Silence 00:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

See User:Silence/Darth Vader for the suggested Darth Vader page, and User:Silence/Anakin Skywalker for the suggested Anakin Skywalker page (also note the pages have been significantly improved in unrelated ways since the separation of the two articles, hence my initial objection to reverting this article based on an out-of-date consensus; we can re-incorporate those changes manually if the article separation fails, though I highly doubt that will be necessary). Also, again, note high-quality articles like Charles Darwin and featured articles like Hugo Chávez for clear (and very helpful!) precedent for trimming down bloated articles by moving information to satellite articles to make readability easier. Also note that I wrote up a summary of the entire Anakin Skywalker page that is quite compact but has just about all of the relevant details (feel free to add or remove more and otherwise edit the above two pages in any way you wish) when I separated the two pages, thus fulfilling the requirement of having a summary for the daughter-article (rather than just a stub section linking to Anakin Skywalker, which would clearly be unacceptable) which may not have existed for past consensus decisions. This section now allows people to read only a succint but useful summary of Vader's early life, since the reason they probably came to the Darth Vader page was for information on Vader after his transformation, not when he was known as Anakin Skywalker, and since anyone interested in more details on his early life can easily click the Anakin Skywalker "main page" link provided and read on, without having to wade through pages and pages and pages of a bloated Darth Vader article to get anywhere. But anyway. I've talked more than long enough. Let's hear some rebuttals! :o (Ah, edit conflict, just got a reply. One moment.) -Silence 00:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Your recent efforts to trim down the article considerably have made the possibility of not creating any satellite articles (not yet, anyway) a much more feasible option. It's now possible to weigh both possible ways to fix this article (the severe trimdown you recommend, and the Anakin spin-off article I recommend) and decide which to go ahead with, and also try to come up with ways where both of us can have our biggest concerns about the other option resolved if we do go ahead with the other possibility. So, here are the two chief concerns I have with the Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker articles, which led me to suggest this change in the first place:
1. First, the Anakin Skywalker article is an extremely inconvenient, time-wasting, useless substub of a page. Someone who searches for Anakin Skywalker wants information on that character, not a cop-out spoiler-protection-are-more-important-than-user-friendliness-and-encyclopedic-NPOV nonsense page that makes Wikipedia look more like a Star Wars fansite (with their "ZOMG DON'T CLICK THIS LINK UNLEZ U WANT SPOILERS!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" pages to wade through) than like an encyclopedia.
  • SOLUTION 1A: Turn it into a hard redirect, spoilers be damned.
  • SOLUTION 1B: Leave it as is, we don't have a better option, a little inconvenience and awkwardness is worth it to protect people from major spoilers.
  • SOLUTION 1C: Turn Anakin Skywalker into its own article, with information on that character and a link to Darth Vader too, below a spoiler tag.
2. Second, the Darth Vader article is excessively long (and certain to only grow longer in the future, as all Wikipedia articles of its nature will), but much of the information is worth preserving.
  • SOLUTION 2A: Delete extraneous information with extreme prejudice. Being short and compact and keeping all the information on one page is more important than preserving useful-and-significant-but-non-vital information.
  • SOLUTION 2B: Leave it long. Who cares if it's as bloated as a whale? It's more convenient to have all information imaginable on one page than to split it up into different pages or delete a big chunk of it.
  • SOLUTION 2C: Create satellite articles, the typical response to any long article on Wikipedia where the length isn't necessarily a bad thing, just a nice wealth of details that should be put on details-heavy pages while the main article is much more summaric.
The solutions I recommend are 1C and 2C (which go together perfectly). The solutions Phil recommends are 1B and 2A. I cannot accept 1B as a viable option, and ask that Phil propose a real solution to this truly damaging problem on Wikipedia. As for 2A, I can find this acceptable only if all of the information removed from Darth Vader to trim it down to an acceptable size is shown to be completely extraneous and useless on any Darth Vader page, and that the information is being removed because it is pointless, not because we need to shorten the page.
Of course, even if we go with 2A, it still leaves the article worse-off in a lot of ways (by not giving us any room to grow and expand and add useful new information, and by forcing us to cram two giant infoboxes into the article as it does now, rather than doing the natural and obvious thing and giving each character its own page—if Anakin and Vader are distinct enough to merit two different infoboxes, why aren't they distinct enough to merit two different articles?!
But anyway. Those are my concerns, and my understanding of the options available to us. If you have any other options or major concerns, and if you want to say under what conditions you might find my suggestions (1C and 2C) tolerable, I'd love to hear about it. (Also, anyone else who wants to voice their opinion, adding to the above solutions or saying which of the current solutions they currently prefer, that'd be great.) -Silence 04:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't we identify redundant information, merge it together, and provide references to the merged information? I've already done that in the biography section. Identifying and removing redundancies within the article itself should be easy. Bloat problem solved.

As for your assertion that the article will continue to grow, I don't see that as an issue. The only possible areas for expansion that I see are future EU releases (which should get, at most, a brief summary and a reference to the Wikipedia or Wookieepedia entry on the book in question), new "behind the scenes" information coming to light, and more cultural references. Those areas for expansion don't really warrant splitting the article as you suggest—we might want to create articles about Production of the Star Wars films or Cultural references to Star Wars, and refer to them instead of having text within this article, but that's a different taco entirely.

Furthermore, if you want to split the bio between Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader, how do you split? Do you just interrupt the story halfway between Revenge of the Sith, go to another article, and then go back to the first article at the end of Return of the Jedi? Or do you tell the story continuously, as one story? It's not a simple line between "now he's Anakin, now he's Vader". The *entire point* of Revenge of the Sith is that he's both. It's Anakin, Obi-Wan's former apprentice, who fights Obi-Wan—it's not some evil spirit who's taken over Anakin's body. The entire point of The Empire Strikes Back is that Darth Vader *is* Luke's father, not an evil spirit who's taken over the body of Luke's father and wants to conquer the galaxy. And the entire point of Return of the Jedi is that Anakin Skywalker finds the courage and the power to redeem himself. He's the same person throughout—he undergoes significant spiritual transitions, but he's still the same person.

More importantly, the biography section is currently short enough that it doesn't warrant splitting on the lines you suggest. For the EU section we might want to merge information into some sort of summary of events in the EU and refer to it the way we're referring to plot summaries of individual films.

As for the soft redirect, I think it's the best of several bad solutions. Using a hard redirect violated spoiler policy, which is why we went with the soft redirect. I'm sorry if it offends your aesthetic sensibilities but I don't see it as an issue. — Phil Welch 05:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, Adam gets all the fanboys on the Wookieepedia to come over here and stuff the ballot box. I'm here to determine a consensus, not hold votes. And considering that you basically have done next to nothing on Wikipedia other than helping Adam and his friends split the article (your only contributions are towards that end), you're essentially a meatpuppet. This is one reason we don't like to hold votes. — Phil Welch 18:36, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm not trying to agree with anyone or help them. Though I have to admit that I don't like the current state of this article. I think we do need to have a vote because no matter how many times we are gonna discuss this issue, it's just not getting us into any solution at all! We're just gonna end up arguing all over again with whatever rebuttals or excuses we have to say. And I think voting is the only way we can solve this problem and stop this arguement once and for all. - DivineLady 11:16, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Then why'd you come here only after Adam posted his "call to arms" on a Star Wars Wiki talk page? And for that matter, why have you only had one edit outside of joining this argument?— Phil Welch 17:55, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • For your information, I did not come here after Adam posted his "call to arms". I posted my comment BEFORE I saw what Adam wrote at the Star Wars Wiki. And by the way, I actually didn't want to argue with anyone. I was only giving my comment on why this article should be split. End of story! - DivineLady 08:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • What the hell? Phil, I never asked those guys to come over here and "take a vote." I asked them to come over here and give their opinions on the matter. I didn't think it would hurt anything, since they themselves have worked extensively on the Wookieepedia Anakin/Vader articles, and have had long discussions themselves on whether to merge Anakin/Vader or keep them separate. The Wookieepedian 09:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'm sorry, I should have assumed good faith, but it seemed to me that you were trying to rally people from outside Wikipedia to your side of the dispute. I don't have a problem with that but I felt a need to point out when and where I saw it happen. — Phil Welch 11:48, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to add my contribution to the debate. I haven't ever seen a Star Wars movie, read a novel or anything else, so my knowledge of the series/franchise is extremely limited, probably giving me a different perspective. I should immediately say that I'm in favour of a split. I'll leave the debate about whether Anakin and Vader are different persons to those who actually have watched the movies, but I don't really think it is of relevance. Anakin is one period in this character's life, Vader is another. The point is, they are completely different periods, Anakin doesn't seem at all similar to Vader from the article. Moreover, apparently enough information exists about Anakin (pre-Vader period) to warrant a separate article.
Spoilers... hmm, I think that with how famous the Star Wars universe is, most people probably know that Anakin and Vader are the same. Nonetheless, it would seem better to refer, in the Anakin Skywalker article, after a spoiler warning, to his transformation. The current merged article even has two character infoboxes, which just doesn't feel right.
It is, after all, common to split big articles into separate ones, where the early life of someone is given a separate article. George W. Bush also links to Early life of George W. Bush. Using the same logic, Anakin Skywalker can be said to be the "early life of Darth Vader", only with the added consideration of a different name and physiology.
Thus, per above, I would favour a split. Solver 13:37, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If we split out the early biography, the article (at this point) is only going to go down from 43K to 35K. That means that the Anakin Skywalker article is going to be a mere 8K—it's not the 50/50 split people are making it sound like. Even if we split out all the non-biography stuff about Anakin we only go down to 32K. 32K vs 11K--not much of an even split.
Give me a couple days to go through this article and cut out the fat. There's a lot of redundancies here and a lot of things that should be merged into plot summaries of other articles. I'm quite sure I can bring this article under 40K, at which point the size issue will be essentially solved. As for the infoboxes, I suppose merging them in the same manner that Palpatine's infobox was merged would make sense. — Phil Welch 17:55, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I still do not think this article should be split. For the purposes of this encyclopedia, I think we can agree that we are regarding movie characters as "literary." And it is a literary precedent that we will discuss a character as if he were real--how else can we speak of his "life," or his "personality," or even of his "existence"? Citing Solver, I don't believe that George W. Bush should be split into two articles--it's not as if he became a different man when he was elected President. All this linking and sub-linking will eventually turn Wikipedia into a series of one-line (exaggeration alert) articles that link to the next one-line article, requiring a new click to read the next part of one encyclopedic entry. This must be avoided. Splitting the article is, in my opinion, the wrong decision. Modifying it (and others like it) to better display two (or more) "phases" of someone's life is my solution. DrKC9N 22:07, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! As you can see with the proposal and active discussion far below, there appears to be major support (and even from prior opponents!) for two articles. I'm actually fairly ambivalent regarding this issue: given the multiple actors, movies, dual eras/sagas, unique characterisations, and wealth of information about both DV and AS, though, a roughly chronological/thematic split – in phases – would make sense (and I mildly prefer this). I can also think of far more dubious and unjustified splits (e.g., agreed for Dubya) ... though I wonder how good or evil such 'characters' can be at the same time. :) Thoughts? Please comment below. Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony 22:30, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Man! Such an argument this has to turn out to be

Ok people, let's discuss without starting an argument and an edit war. It is a good idea that Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker should be merged, after all they are the same person. But I think it is better to keep them separated, cause even though they are the same, they still have distinctively different identities.

Here's an excerpt from Tatooine Ghost, an EU novel about Leia discovering her father's past while she was in Tatooine, four years after the events from Return of the Jedi. (Warning: spoilers alert!)

A strange feeling of déjà vu came over Leia, and she asked, "Who was this friend?"
"Anakin Skywalker," Wald (Anakin's childhood friend) said.
"You knew Anakin?"
"Of course I knew him." Wald sounded insulted. "he was my pal. We were slaves together."
Leia's jaw dropped. "My father was a slave?"
"Don't make it sound like something dirty," Wald said, growing defensive. " We were kids. It wasn't like we gambled our way into it."
"That's not what she meant." Han took Leia's hand and gave it a little squeeze to break her out of her shock. "It's just hard to believe that a slave grew up to be Darth Vader."
"Darth Vader?" Wald waved his palms dismissively. "That's a lie. Anakin Skywalker never became Darth Vader."
"Really?" Leia heard the ice in her tone, but found herself losing the battle to keep her temper under control. The Rodian's denial touched a deep and painful chord, for rejecting the truth of Darth Vader's identity was the same as claiming all his terrible deeds never happened. "And you know this how?"
"Because I knew him," Wald retorted. "You don't understand what it takes — what it took back then — for a slave to win his freedom."
Leia took a deep breath, then said, "I'm sorry, Wald. Obviously, we have very different views of Anakin Skywalker."
"Obviously," Wald said. "And only one of us is right."

Later, Leia found a journal that belonged to her grandmother and after viewing a flashback from the journal which shows Anakin winning the Boonta Eve Race. Here's what happened:

Leia paused the image and spent a long time looking at the young boy with the sparkling blue eyes, thinking how happy he looked... and how innocent. Had she known him then, had she never met Darth Vader, she might have agreed with Wald: She might have believed they could not be the same person.

Here's another excerpt from the novel Junior Jedi Knights: The Golden Globe, this one is a moment between Leia and her son Anakin:

He (Anakin Solo) thought about the fact that Darth Vader had been a part of the Sith. He always tried not to think of Vader as his grandfather. But Vader had once been Anakin Skywalker, Luke and Leia's father. And that made him Anakin's grandfather. But that was before he began using the Force for evil and became Vader. Anakin wished that his parents hadn't named him after his mom's father. He had once asked his mother why she had chosen to name him after Vader. "You weren't named after Darth Vader," Leia had explained. "You were named after my father. He was Anakin Skywalker, not Vader. And before he died your grandfather did turn away from the dark side. He died saving your uncle Luke's life." Leia had told Anakin that it was important to remember that the power of the Force could turn even a good man to the dark side. "Anakin, to me your name reminds me of hope," Leia had explained. "Hope that even when a Jedi uses the Force for the dark side he can choose to turn back to the light. Just as my father Anakin Skywalker did."

I hope that those excerpts can give anyone some insights that although Anakin did became Darth Vader, they should be classified as two different characters because of their two different identities despite being the same person. Also, if anyone is looking for some info on just Anakin Skywalker, they would expect to get the article on Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Vader. Putting everything under one article just make the article too long, and please! People would rather read a simple detailed article which is not too long and could give them a headache. Also, even though Vader may be the far more popular one, let's not forget nor look down on Anakin Skywalker. After all, he was the "Hero of No Fear" during the Clone Wars and was also highly respected by many during those times. With the release of the Prequels, many people might want to read an article more on Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Vader. Because the Clone Wars has shown that Anakin has done a lot even before his transformation to Darth Vader.

To futher explain more, let's use Leia as an example. At first she couldn't believe that Darth Vader is her father because of the terrible things he had done. She also sees him as a monster who tortured her and even destroyed her home planet. And because of that she couldn't bring herself to forgive him at first nor accept him as her father. Later on a mission to Tatooine she met Anakin's childhood friends, who couldn't believe that their best friend had turned into Darth Vader because of his good and kind deeds he had done. It was only then when Leia found her grandmother's journal and discovered that her father wasn't really a monster she tought he was. She eventually forgives him and even named her youngest son after him. From the excerpt between Leia and her son, you can see that even though Leia knows that Anakin Skywalker becomes Vader, she finally sees them as two identities. One is the good man who is her father and the other who is the evil monster. Which is why she named her youngest son after Anakin, not Vader. And the reason why she did so is because she sees her father as a reminder of hope, not the evil villain she hated and feared. Which is why I think it is better to split Anakin from Vader. And aside from discussing, let's take a vote and be done with this, shall we? By doing this we can see that who's in favour of spliting them up and who's not. That way it'll be fair to others.- DivineLady 07:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, let's not take a vote. That's not how we do things on Wikipedia. We discuss things and come to a consensus that resolves everyone's concerns. The entire point of the story of Anakin Skywalker is his transformation into Darth Vader. It's true that he changed a lot during that transformation. If I came back after five years and found that my best friend had renounced everything he used to believe in and become cruel and domineering, I might say "I don't know you—you're not the same person." But I don't mean that literally, and like Obi-Wan, I would be all torn up inside if I had to go out and kill him. Furthermore, the entire tragedy of my going out to kill him means nothing if we don't understand the context of who he was prior to his fall.
Furthermore, I hate to stress this, but the clone wars never actually happened. We're supposed to judge by the notability of the fictional character in real life, not the notability of the character within his own fictional universe. Furthermore, while the article *is* overly long now, have you actually read it lately? Splitting out Anakin's biography wouldn't do anything but overly confuse the matter, especially since it's so hard to draw distinct lines to cut. At the very least, give me more time to remove more redundancies and reorganize the content a little better. — Phil Welch 18:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
While we're quoting novels, here's an excerpt from the Revenge of the Sith novelization:
This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker, forever.
The first dawn of light in your universe brings pain. The light burns you. It will always burn you. Part of you will always lie upon black glass sand beside a lake of fire while flames chew upon your flesh. You can hear yourself breathing. It comes hard, and harsh, and it scrapes nerves already raw, but you cannot stop it. You can never stop it. You can't even slow it down. You don't even have lungs anymore, not really. Mechanisms hardwired into your chest breathe for you. They will pump oxygen into your bloodstream forever.
"Lord Vader? Lord Vader, can you hear me?"
And you can't, not in the way you once did. Sensors in the shell that prisons your head trickle meaning directly into your brain. You open your scorched-pale eyes, optical sensors integrate light and shadow into a hideous simulacrum of the world around you. Or perhaps the simulacrum is perfect, and it is the world that is hideous.
"Padme? Are you here? Are you alright?"
You try to say it, but another voice speaks for you, out from the vocabulator that serves you for burned-away lips and tonue and throat.
"Padme? Are you here? Are you alright?"
"I'm very sorry, Lord Vader. I'm afraid she died. It seems in your anger, you killed her."
This burns hotter than the lava had.
"No ... no, its not possible!"
You loved her. You will always love her. You could never will her death. Never. But you remember... You remember all of it.
You remember the dragon that you brought Vader forth from your heart to slay. You remember the cold venom in Vader's blood. You remember the furnace of Vader's fury, and ther black hatred of seizing her throat to silence her lying mouth--
And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker. That it was all you. Is you.
Only you.
You did it.
You killed her.
You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself...
It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith--Because now your self is all you will ever have.
And you rage, and scream, and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot even touch the shadow.
In the end, you do not even want to.
In the end, the shadow is all you have left.
Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you unto itself--
And within your furnace, you burn in your own flame.
This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker, right now.
Forever.
— Phil Welch 18:25, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmmm... If there is "only Anakin Skywalker" and "that there was no Vader" like what the ROTS novelisation said, then why is this article under Darth Vader instead of Anakin Skywalker? - DivineLady 08:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • If I could do whatever I wanted the article would be under Anakin Skywalker :) — Phil Welch 11:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • You seem to think that you can do whatever you want, its not up to you what happens to this article. Who cares if you don't want a vote. It's got nothing to do with what you want! I think Vader and Skywalker are two different people and their articles should be seperate like on Wookipedia. And sop trying to push your weight around, your just being a pathetic, fanboy twat!!! WookipediaUser:JascaDucato 81.107.192.60
Why not just have a bludy vote. Its obvious that you wont stop bickering about it. People have read the arguments for and against a split, and can make an informed choise. Personaly I don't care, but having read the arguments, I think a split would be beneficial, as long as there they have links to each other at the top of the page. How can it hurt?

Reworking

Well, I've done a lot of reworking, moving things around, etc. We're down to 40k--not really a long article anymore. It's only 33k if we don't count endnotes, sources, external links, infoboxes, etc. I can work on it some more but I've done most of what I can. Additionally, no actual content was deleted—some was merged to other articles, and some redundancies were eliminated, but on the whole I've not removed anything, and have in fact added some content. I also addressed the infobox issue and—I hope—created a good, coherent article that stands up well as a single article.

Nonetheless, I've become more amenable to the idea of a split, but only if the current article maintains its present cohesion and coherentness. I'm not ready to say I support a split just yet (nor do I think it's necessary for page size concerns) but I'm willing to look at what can be done with the article as it stands now (as opposed to how it was a couple days ago).

Furthermore, after this dispute is settled I'm putting this up for featured article status. — Phil Welch 22:18, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And I'm much more amenable to the idea of leaving the article similar to how it is now. Your improvements have been truly fantastic (though I'd like to give copyediting the article a shot, if you don't mind holding off on the FA for a bit...), and your arguments have been very compelling.
However, I still feel that there is enough material to give Anakin Skywalker its own article, and the very fact that this debate is so contentious is part of the evidence for that: one of the sections in the "Anakin Skywalker" article could very well be a discussion of when, if ever, Anakin transforms into Vader, what the relationship of the two personas are, etc. The controversies surrounding when he's Vader and when he's Anakin (or whether he's always both, your POV), and the evidence supporting each perspective on that issue, are a worthy encyclopedic topic (possibly referenced, of course), in my view, but not worth cluttering this page up with.
I also think we could use that article to discuss more fully the actors who play Anakin in the first three movies, and in the final movie (since they're credited as Anakin, unlike the actors credited as Vader), and creating that article would certainly allow us to re-add the bio template for Anakin Skywalker you recently (rightly) removed from this page.
We could also possibly to use my original idea for the article as serving as a daughter article for Vader with more details on his life when he was referred to as Anakin, or when his life touched on his name or life as Anakin Skywalker. For example, we could utilize "Anakin Skywalker" to give more details on his actions in the first three movies, and in exchange shorten the synopses of the first three movies on this page to only one or two (or at most three) paragraphs, just as the three original movie synopses are that short. Likewise, having one "Appearance" section on the Anakin Skywalker article for his pre- (and possibly post-) Vader appearance, and a different one on Darth Vader for his much more famous, archetypical appearance when in that role, would help us trim down this article a lot, which would greatly improve its chances of being FAd: a page-long "Appearance" section is a bit much, but we could easily cut it down to two-thirds of that if we had an Anakin Skywalker page. Another possible thing to discuss there is the actor-change for the two ghostly "Anakins", since that's not directly a Vader subject, even though I acknowledge that you have proven your point about the two being, essentially if not superficially, the same person. -Silence 22:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Something that might be more useful and neutral would be to move *this* article to Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader (as per the New Essential Guide to Characters--an old proposal from Talk:Darth Vader/Archive 2). Such an article would be a much better place to expand on the identity controversy
Nah. If we're only going to have it on one article, Wikipedia naming guidelines make it clear that we have to choose the most common name (Darth Vader), not try to incorporate both names into the title. If we do have only one article, keep it here; I just don't think we should have only one article. -Silence 23:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The main reason I think the prequel summaries on this page are so much longer is that the prequels are the story of Anakin Skywalker, while the originals are the story of Luke Skywalker. Anakin is EVERYWHERE in the prequels. But in the original trilogy he's not so important—he's sort of co-villain in ANH with Tarkin, while ESB has a bunch of "Luke and Yoda" and "Han and Leia" scenes that don't involve him at all, and he's absent entirely from ROTJ's "Escape from Jabba's Palace" and "Stormtroopers vs. Teddy Bears" sequences.
I understand. But, again, whenever anyone talks about this character in reference to the first three (especially the first two) movies, they invariably call him "Anakin"; and whenever anyone talks about him in reference to the second three (excepting the end of the third), they invariably call him "Darth"; as such, I still feel that this article would be benefited by keeping his early-life biography as short as his later-life biography, and simply going into the much great level of detail on Anakin Skywalker, not as a POV fork, but as an "Early life of X"-style article. It's the only way we can satisfy both people who will want this article to focus almost entirely on his later life (the life he was known as "Darth Vader" in), and those who want to learn about his early life in more detail than this article can provide without becoming overlarge. This is not to argue that Darth Vader isn't also Anakin Skywalker, just to make it easier to provide as much useful information as possible and to acknowledge what the most popular names are, and continue to be (a Star Wars handbook will have separate sections for Anakin and Vader, or at least acknowledge the difference, but a Malcolm X biography won't bother to have a "Malcolm X/El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz" title, which shows the difference in popular usage). -Silence 23:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we can or should go into more detail about Anakin's early life than this article already is. That's why we're referring to the plot summaries. — Phil Welch 23:41, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we can, and should. And the whole "referring to plot summaries" thing is a nice solution in some ways, but in others it's a bit silly; anyone who wants summaries for the whole movies can simply go to a brief link provided for each of those movies at the start of the section ("In A New Hope...") that wouldn't clutter up the space as much as a lengthy italicized "For more information" link, and in some ways not dividing it by movies would be a bit of an improvement; the current divisions are OK, but could easily be merged into half as many sections considering how short you've made them, thus helping shorten the Darth Vader TOC. I'm not saying we have to do any of that, but you should be a bit more open to the fact that there is, and should be, a lot of interesting and important detail to add to this character. That you don't want to write it doesn't mean you should prevent every other editor from now until the end of time attempting to do so in an encyclopedic and high-quality way. Eventually, Darth Vader should provide the heavily-shortened form of his entire biography, the movies should provide the in-depth description of the overall plot summaries of the movies, and satellite articles should provide the in-depth description of Vader's life as portrayed by the movies and significant EU works. Anakin Skywalker would help both balance out the first three sections with the second three, counteracting the fact that Anakin is more central to the first three movies than Vader to the second three, and also allowing us to provide all the information anyone could want about Anakin on a daughter page without barraging people with any but the most crucial details on this page, which is chiefly about Vader in the iconic form he came to be known by under the name "Darth Vader", even though his early life, including his life when he was chiefly known as Anakin Skywalker, is a part of that. -Silence 00:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The general consensus I've seen is for less, not more, plot summary of fictional works. Given this trend, I really don't think people will or should expand the accounting of Vader's life events in this article. — Phil Welch 00:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I couldn't care less about general trends and abstract conceptions of consensus that inevitably can only be drawn from what personal experiences of summary-shortening you happen to have had in certain areas of Wikipedia. Obviously there are some fictional works that need more plot summaries, and other that need less plot summaries; surely you aren't advocating that every work on all of Wikipedia needs less plot summation, no matter how little it already has? Therefore the only difference between the two of us is where we draw the line: whether we think that Darth Vader has more than enough plot summarizing already, or could use more, being one of the most noteworthy fictional characters in all of popular culture today, and one whose backstory is rather legendary and frequently-referenced, even on extremely detailed points, on all levels of popular culture. Wikipedia is not paper; it has room to expand plenty, and the purpose of daughter articles is to allow the main page to be as short and tight as necessary while letting the more interested people go to delve into other pages for the details. Thus both the people who want less summation, and the ones who want more (and there are certainly plenty of both), can both easily be satisfied by Wikipedia. We should limit information based on noteworthiness (e.g. no fanfiction :)), not based on size limitations! Size limitations are easily surmounted by solutions exactly the one I've been proposing all along here. Also, it's quite obvious that people will expand Darth Vader's bio here; the question is whether they should, and whether we should fight them at every turn to keep them from ever making the biography at all larger than the specific, arbitrary size you happen to think it should be, or whether we should let Wikipedia grow naturally and trim off the truly unhelpful and obscure information while allowing articles to grow and improve. It's always easier to cut down on articles later when they're too long than to expand on them later when they're missing specific important facts. -Silence 03:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • How about specific Wikipedia guidelines then? "It is often informative to include plot summaries (and other spoilers) in articles on works of fiction. However, please keep them reasonably short, as the point of Wikipedia is to describe the works, not simply summarize them." —Wikipedia:Fiction. This was recently referenced on Talk:Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith when they shortened the plot summary there. I've seen a rough agreement to that effect on other Star Wars pages as well. Furthermore, it's redundant to include a long and detailed plot summary of the Star Wars movies in general in this article when plot summaries are already written for each individual film. Things are a lot easier for all of us if we centralize the plot summaries in the film articles and simply summarize the relevant parts of the summaries in character bios. (Incidentally, this was something suggested in the peer review for this article, as you can read from the above link.) — Phil Welch 04:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I also think that if we're going to split, Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker should both redirect to Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader and we can split to Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequels. (Splitting to just Anakin Skywalker tends to railroad the "Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker" issue as well as the "Sebastian Shaw in ROTJ is Anakin Skywalker" issue.) On the other hand, that makes this article too Vader-centric.
Never gonna happen. Too awkward, and indisputably nonstandard. Anakin Skywalker could be a daughter article for Darth Vader (my preferred version), or it could be nothing but a redirect to Darth Vader (your past preferred version), but trying to put it on totally equal ground with Darth Vader (which would probably just lead to redundancy, or even worse a POV fork), and even worse trying to make both it and Vader daughter articles of another, bizarrely-named article, would be going way too far. I'd rather have no Anakin Skywalker article at all than that. (Luckily, those aren't the only two options. :)) -Silence 23:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I think you misunderstood. Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker won't be daughter articles at all, just redirects. — Phil Welch 23:41, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I did misunderstand. So not only do we not solve a single one of the current problems with this article, but we create the new problem of having a pointlessly complex, nonstandard, and POVed article name? -Silence 00:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Let's set aside the idea of titling the main page anything other than Darth Vader. Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequels would be a better title for what you're going for, and Anakin Skywalker could become a disambiguation page. — Phil Welch 00:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Total waste of time and space. Disambig pages for only two potential likely article candidates are inane, as is making an article longer than it needs to be for absolutely no reason except to make a point (going to ridiculous and excessive lengths, as you are currently, to push the POV that Anakin and Darth are totally identical in every way, which, even if true, clearly isn't the only POV, and clearly isn't reflected in the usage of the names "Anakin Skywalker" and "Darth Vader", which almost everyone manages to use to refer to different, specific and easily-defined stages in a certain fictional character's life, and which almost noone blindly uses as pure synonyms). Anyone who searches for "Anakin Skywalker" is looking for information on either (1) Anakin in the first three films (85% of the time), (2) an explanation of the difference between Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader, and how the two relate to one another (10% of the time), (3) Anakin at the end of the sixth film (5% of the time). Anyone who searches for "Darth Vader" is looking for Vader as he appears at the end of the 3rd film and throughout the 4th, 5th, and 6th films; most people will just be annoyed and bored by the many pages of details on Anakin Skywalker near the top of the Darth Vader page, since if they'd wanted more than the basic details on Darth's early life they would have simply searched for "Anakin Skywalker". The reason I'm pushing for this split is because not having an Anakin Skywalker article is so counter-intuitive and will cause so many people who search for "Anakin Skywalker" (there must have been countless people already, and there will be countless more in the future) to waste valuable time and effort when what they're searching for is so clearly-defined and so noteworthy that it's really not in any way necessary to not just have an article on it and be done with the problems, the controversy, the endless instability and bloat and unhelpfully mishmashed information and impractical design altogether! Such a simple and obvious solution, I'm really surprised I even have to propose it; I'd have expected the Anakin Skywalker article to have existed more or less nonstop for years now, not to be some bold new idea. -Silence 03:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't see many problems with the length of this article though. The appearance section might be outright changed to an article about the armored suit anyway—aside from mentioning the scar (which can be moved to the section about the EU), we don't need a description of what the guy looks like, that's what photographs are for. In fact, I'm gonna do that right now! — Phil Welch 23:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, no. Definitely no. Even if you make it a different section, obviously there has to be at least 2 or 3 paragraphs describing him in this article, with a "main article" link to an article more fully discussing his appearance (which I'm not sure is needed at this point...). What's the point of having "spoken word" articles if we're just going to assume everyone can see all our images and get all the proper significance from them? :) Just as an article about a painting must describe the painting's appearance, an article about a character with a noteworthy (hell, iconic in this case) appearance must describe that appaearance, and an FA article must describe that appearance in detail. -Silence 23:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Look at what I did. I have a description of the suited Vader's appearance (which can be expanded), but not the unsuited Anakin's, simply because that's (a) unnecessary detail, (b) it rehashes information already available in the article, and (c) Hayden Christensen doesn't have a particularly distinctive appearance—unlike, say, Jon Heder's portrayal of Napoleon Dynamite. — Phil Welch 23:41, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Good. More reason to have a separate Anakin Skywalker article. :) -Silence 00:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As a 'serious' editor who has also worked on the military history of Canada article (see above :)), I do not see there being a significant reason to not have two articles. Three movies essentially recount Darth Vader's exploits (as the full fledged 'evil' cyborg-regent), and the other three Anakin Skywalker's (as a good-bad burgeoning harbinger), with the lifeform undergoing a significant transformation in Episode III: Revenge of the Sith. As well, he was depicted by at least two actors in two different 'eras': fans and not may have different perceptions of the two. Besides: as the current article is getting long and unwieldy, it would make sense to (re)cleave it based on the two 'characters', and (if done properly) can be rather seamless and continuous. Why don't we put this to a vote – where we can get broad input – and be guided by that outcome? Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony 16:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Templates

Another reason for separation is that the current template is overlong; because it incorporates information not just from Darth Vader in the form he was always called by that as, but also as a child, pre-armor adult, etc. I'm much more sympathetic now to the view that Anakin and Vader are essentially the same person, but clarity should take first place in Wikipedia articles: using two separate infoboxes makes each infobox twice as readable by not bombarding our readers with information they aren't looking for (someone comes to the Darth Vader article for Vader as he was in the last three films, not for the child or teen Anakin; sorry, but it's just so, whether the popular mind is right or wrong on this matter).
By cutting it into two articles, we can tremendously reduce the size of each and thus not clutter up any page with a too-large box. Having information on the home planets he lived on throughout his life is acceptable, but mentioning his previous political and Jedi affiliations will just confuse people new to this article ("wait, the Vader everyone's been talking about, the guy in this picture, is with the good guys? wait... I'm confused..."—such nuances are better covered in the article's text than in an infobox grown over-huge for excessive technical accuracy), and for the "actor" box, shouldn't we credit the actors in the same way they were credited in the movies themselves? In other words, the child and teen Anakin weren't credited as "Darth Vader" for the first two movies, so why act as though they were?
Of course, having two templates would be a really, really bad idea if we only had one article, and couldn't simply move the "Anakin" template to the Anakin Skywalker article, solving both problems in one blow. :) -Silence 00:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I've updated User:Silence/Darth Vader with some new style changes. The specific text involved, obviously, will be changed in many points for the final version (if there's any support for making the effort to do so, I'll do it), but the general layout and page breakdown is what I'm asking about. -Silence 03:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As well, having two infoboxes is cumbersome. The current infobox can be enhanced (I think, if need be) if both characters' details were included in the same box (not two) with side-by-side pictures and details: Anakin first, Vader after. If there should be one article (with one infobox), how about something like this ... If there are no objections, I will replace the current infobox with the one proposed here. E Pluribus Anthony 22:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Template:SW Character

It's pretty freaking wide and I think we're heading for a split anyway, but go for it. — Phil Welch 22:59, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Actually: it's no wider (on my screen) that the current one; the picture can also be reduced in size. I think this will do until the single/dual article dichotomy is resolved. By the way: while I am interested in this topic, I was compelled to visit and comment by a summary of this 'dispute' in the most recent issue of Wired. :) Enjoy! E Pluribus Anthony 23:13, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The "soft redirect" has served its time.

I've logged out to make this comment, since I was originally inadvertently not logged in when I made this edit creating the essence of the Anakin Skywalker article in its current form - only just discoved this debate being re-opened. (I'm not a major contributor otherwise, so not using this to "hide", but to associate this comment with the minimal version I created).

The edit was not intended to state an opinion on the form the article should take, but to try a minimal pseudo-article implied by this series of edits [1] [2] [3] [4] following from the partial concensus reached by a relatively small number of people in Talk:Anakin_Skywalker/Archive and Talk:Darth_Vader/Archive_3.

My "2 line version" was intended to make as obvious as possible the current status of the article, and appears to have succeeded in that respect since the number of "enhancements" made to the article in the following 3 months was substantially reduced.

Given articles like Isaac Newton's early life and achievements and Isaac Newton's later life, Early life of George W. Bush, etc. there is certainly precedent for multiple articles to a real biography. The "most common name" for an article that might otherwise be called Early life of Darth Vader is certainly Anakin Skywalker, and conversely the "most common name" for an article that might otherwise be called Later life of Anakin Skywalker or Anakin Skywalker after his fall to the dark side would be Darth Vader.

A "google test" for "Darth Vader" vs. "Anakin Skywalker" gives a slight edge to Darth Vader, but at least as of today, they are about evenly split with between 2.5 and 3 million hits each, each side of the character seems notable in its own right.

I would suggest a more ideal structure would be along the lines as follows:

Darth Vader article:

  • Pre-spoiler intro, with infobox giving Darth Vader characteristics (sith/cyborg/etc.)
  • Early life as Anakin Skywalker
    • pointer to main Anakin Skywalker article.
    • summary of involvement in episodes 1-3
  • .... additional sections giving details of the later parts of life in service to the empire.

Anakin Skywalker article:

  • Pre-spoiler intro, with infobox giving Anakin Skywalker characteristics (jedi/human/etc.)
  • ...various sections giving details of involvement in episodes 1-3
  • Later life as Darth Vader
    • pointer to main Darth Vader article.
    • Summary of involvement in episodes 4-6, and in particular the end of ROTJ

The above is intended as a symmetric structure - each article can be interpreted as a child article of the other, including a recap of its parent article. While there will certainly be overlap between the two, there is definite value to having non-spoiler info about Anakin Skywalker, and a less confusing single infobox, something that the current structure does not allow. The focus of an article targetted towards people looking for information on Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader is different.

There are other cases of articles where a person is known under more than one distinct identity. For example (after searching around): Deep Throat (Watergate)/W. Mark Felt, Richard Bachman/Stephen King - pairs of articles about the same person which refer to each other but are primarily focussed on different identities of that person. I don't see a compelling reason to insist on all the information on Anakin / Vader being on one article. --83.151.213.148 00:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! I think I support you and – definitely – in having two articles. My attempt at a single infobox presently was more a(n attempt at a) balanced solution given the back-and-forthing or until salient decisions are made.  :) Perhaps we should put this to a vote, and be guided by the results of that? Merci! E Pluribus Anthony 01:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think a vote is premature—if and when Silence responds (or I give up waiting for him) we can finalize the conditions under which I'm amenable to a split and proceed from there. — Phil Welch 02:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think it is premature, particularly given this debate and the article history up to this point (e.g., two articles existed previously and were then merged, etc.) However, I will hold off on a vote until Silence is heard (ha!) or for a couple of days, but will initiate a poll, vote, and or RfC if this is not forthcoming or if other challenges persist. If a consensus is arrived at or identified, what you or I are amenable to is moot. Thanks. E Pluribus Anthony 03:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to get in the way of a solution, go ahead and do that. I'm actually trying to negotiate a compromise instead of calling a vote. — Phil Welch 07:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
How is calling for a vote – when a clear consensus doesn't exist either way regarding this – getting in the way of progress or a solution? This article (once two) has a long and storied (and one could could say, circuitous) discussion accompanying it. A vote (or another mechanism to gather greater input) will merely identify or enable a consensus, which is at the cornerstone of Wp. Actually, such comments are obstructionist: you should probably be more discriminating in your comments before making them. E Pluribus Anthony 17:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

First, negotiations are still underway. Second, if there's no clear consensus, than what's needed is discussion, not a vote, which will only show that there is wide disagreement. Thirdly, Wikipedia is not a democracy. — Phil Welch 17:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In response – first: discussions have been underway for quite sometime, with no resolution; you saying so, given feedback to the contrary, is insufficient. Second: there's no clear consensus (but I will wait another day and some) before garnering greater input; a vote or RfC will facilitate that. Third: this article (or proposed ones) are not your property. Lastly: if your attitude with me (in so short a time) is indicative of anything throughout, you need to refrain from being pejorative – a vote will not only occur but may be necessary to overcome any impasse. Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony 17:58, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

From Vesther's point of view

IMO I think that retaining the article as being Darth Vader (Have Anakin Skywalker redirect to Darth Vader) is fine, because after watching Revenge of the Sith, I now realize that Darth Vader isn't the villian of the Star Wars franchise after all. In fact, since Darth Vader, at the end of Episode V, realized that he is indeed the Chosen One, and he made a lot of reckless choices, and starts to regain his sanity from Episode V up until near the end of Return of the Jedi, realizes that he did fail his deeds as Anakin Skywalker before he got immolated at Mustafar. The 2-Meter Armor serves as the consequences that Vader must live with for the next 23 years of his life. Vader went insane at the end of Episode III, but then started regaining his sanity near the end of Episode V, then chose to rectify his mistakes and elected to pass away as Anakin Skywalker near the end of Episode VI. If you watch the films in order, you will see that Darth Vader, believe it or not, is really the filmset's protagonist, even though Vader commits pure atrocities on Episode IV and most of V. Vader knows that he is the good guy, and he knows what he did bad throughout his pre-armor life (i.e. seek the power to prevent others from dying, pledging to Palpatine's teachings). Vader overtime knows what he did right, and what he did wrong, so I can no longer consider Vader as a villian, but a protagonist with his fatal flaw being making dark mistakes and his fear of losing his loved ones. Vader did sell his soul to the devil, but knew that he still believed in God, and knows that his mission as The Chosen One was his true mission, not to remain loyal to the Emperor. In Episode III-V, Vader did a lot of bad things, and of course, we all now know that the 2-meter armor is the consequence Vader must live with, and IMO the 2-meter armor is basically Vader's punishment/detention for doing all of these bad things at the start of his tenure as Palpatine's apprentice. — Vesther 05:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback; users can agree to disagree, as is the case here. Given the support and opposition to having just one article, it may very well be prudent to resolve this through a vote where broad input can be collected and a consensus identified (which currently doesn't exist). As stated above, I will wait a couple of days before doing so. Merci! E Pluribus Anthony 05:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section

(a) If we *have* a spoiler warning we may as well use it to, say, actually protect against spoilers. While Vader's identity is arguably well known enough not to be a spoiler, failing a definitive consensus to that effect we should still treat it as one. (b) The level of detail you're providing is frankly unnecessary in a summary section. It's a redundant statement which adds unnecessary and distracting detail. The idea is for the opening summary to be a series of generalizations that the rest of the article addresses more specifically. Accordingly I've moved the specific details into a slightly more suitable section. (c) Spoiler issue aside, it's better to start the discussion of Vader's original identity in a paragraph more or less dedicated to that purpose. — Phil Welch 17:52, 1 December 2005 (UTC), 18:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

These changes are relevant. If this is to be a unified article, upfront mentions are necessary of both DV and AS to provide the appropriate context to users. The unified infobox is also upfront, which indicates that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are one and the same (and is no secret); this is not an inordinate level of detail in an article that marries the two. These are two facets of one major character in the entire SW saga. And by minimising mentions of AS in the lead (and given prior discussions), this article is clearly unbalanced and requiring attention. If this is to be an article solely about DV, then treat it as such and one should be created for his younger self. E Pluribus Anthony 18:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If you actually take into consideration my compromise edits instead of revert warring you'll notice that I'm trying to address your concerns in a way that satisfies both of us. If I'm failing to do that please explain how and we can work it out. — Phil Welch 19:36, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am being very observant not only of your edits but attitude. While you've made efforts to include more of AS, you continue to make edits that somewhat diminish not only his stature but general summations about the films, which are wholly relevant to this unified article. I have summarised and moved related sections below while retaining the spoiler warning, and you alone have made subjective edits – or removals – throughout otherwise. This is not a compromise and is unsatisfactory: if you were making edits in a true spirit of compromise, I would expect salient discussion and a refractory period from making either subjective edits/reverts on your part or potentially inflammatory comments as you have. I will restore deletions of summative information as needed shortly; in any event, there's a clear need for some sort of RfC or vote to resolve this and I will do so soon. Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony 19:49, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Um...I'm not removing information, because that information is plainly available in the article proper. It's especially absurd to create a "Summary" section that's one paragraph long *right before the lead of the section it's summarizing*. The article summary should concisely get the main point across. Furthermore, I'm trying the best I can to have the same level of detail for AS as for DV—I believe it was you who branched off the Anakin Skywalker details into a pointless one-paragraph subsection. — Phil Welch 20:11, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You are incorrect: you removed information and are (as before) building the article in a unilateral way; that is not compromise. In a unified article, a section (and heading) summarising verbose text about two facets of the same character in six movies is necessary (though not essential if an article is structured properly) and permissible by Wp guidelines. Your current edits to this article also hark of your prior edits, merges, and deletions to it. And again, as previously, you persist in denigrating other contributions. I arrived to help guide edits to this article (or two) any which way, not to be emboldened by your clear lack of tact. To that end: additional discussion with you is rather pointless and I will be guided by additional user input hereafter. End communication. E Pluribus Anthony 20:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK. In order to address your concerns about diminishing the stature of Anakin, he now has his very own paragraph back in the lead section, right after the Vader paragraph. In other words, it's roughly ordered in the same way the films were released while giving equal time (and probably more than equal time) to Anakin. As for removing "summative information", very little was *re*moved—some was moved to the summary of the biography section, while some was already in that section and, in my opinion, didn't need repeating. (I would welcome a third opinion on this point.) I'm going to try expanding the lead section again in a bit of a different direction—hope you're happy with it. As for my attitude, I apologize—now let's get to the task of hammering out a consensus. — Phil Welch 20:29, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Great. I'm all for not repeating things unnecessarily in articles, but a summary upfront in a loaded article regarding two disparate aspects of the same (and in this case, somewhat major) 'lifeform' is not pointless nor absurd. The current version is better than before, though; it still requires 'massaging' (I cannot attend to it presently, but will soon) and welcome additional commentary. E Pluribus Anthony 20:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify I don't think providing a summary is absurd. I think putting the "Summary" section heading so that one paragraph of the lead section was its own one paragraph section was absurd, because it makes more sense to just include that in the lead section. Go ahead and massage, but let's resolve the split dispute (which I will reopen presently) before we get too engrossed in edits that may not even be relevant soon. — Phil Welch 21:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That is fine: however, in my eyes (and as a unified article), the prior lead wasn't summative at all and was unbalanced. My editions/additions were intended to be dually summative while maintaining mystique (as per your initial intent). Edits are good; removals without discussion aren't (and also apologise if this is your perception).
And I'll gladly partake in additional discourse regarding one or two articles shortly: I am going to more thoroughly review the back-matter before making any additional commitments. And I believe it is still prudent to offer this puppy up for some collective comment, which will better guide our actions. Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony 22:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've already solicited comment on my proposal, as you know. If you want to RfC the matter that's cool too. I'm just leaning towards "voting is evil" at the moment—let's not resort to it unless we can't come up with a consensus. — Phil Welch 22:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

He he; I clearly disagree with the 'voting is evil' notion. :) Remember: another proposal has also been made (above); a request for comment will enable other users to offer perspectives or ideas that we cannot or do not currently envision. More to follow; merci! E Pluribus Anthony 23:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and I would like for that proposal to be restated below if my counterproposal doesn't address the inherent concerns. As my proposal is more or less a changed version of Silence's proposal, Silence, or anyone else for that matter, is more than free to suggest changes or restate his proposal below, even by copy and paste if he wants. If one of the people who doesn't want to fork the article desires he can express a proposal to that effect as well. — Phil Welch 23:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fork

Let's use this section to compile specific proposals and explanations of our concerns so we can reach a consensus on whether or not to fork this article.

Philwelch's proposal

The biographical sections of the "Biography" section of this present article, along with certain details specifically referring to Anakin Skywalker as he appears, should be forked to an article titled Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequels. Anakin Skywalker will become a hard redirect to the new article. The new article will be a "child" of this article and will refer back to this article. This article will retain almost all of its cohesive properties—i.e. it will continue to tell the complete story of Anakin Skywalker from birth, through the fall, to his redemption and death. But it will do so in a summary way, moving more specific details to Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequels.

The infobox on this article will refer to Darth Vader alone—an Anakin Skywalker infobox will be forked to the new article. Additionally, the lead section to this article will again include a spoiler warning and will only mention the name "Anakin Skywalker" below that warning—in other words, the lead section will be substantially similar to earlier versions and substantially different from the version Anthony and I are trying to work out.

My main concerns are (a) the cohesiveness of this article in telling the complete story of Anakin Skywalker, (b) providing the ability for the rest of Wikipedia to refer selectively either to prequel-Anakin or original-trilogy-Vader, (c) having articles of appropriate size.

As for Silence's desire to have more plot details included in the biographical sections, I must say that I personally agree with him. The long and detailed bio sections we had previously were largely due to my involvement. While others outside this particular dispute want to minimize the amount of plot summary, I would be perfectly amenable to, post-fork, returning back to the level of detail in our plot summary as we had previously. In fact, if we do it that way and nominate for FA, we are bound to get a definitive answer on how to do this.

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason and Vesther seem to like the idea of keeping the article together. In response to that concern, which I share, I suggest that my proposal maintains the cohesiveness of this article while forking certain details to a more focused article. There are numerous links to Anakin Skywalker which will be redirected to Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequels that only want to refer to him in the prequels.

As for my proposed title, my primary concerns are to neutrally make the point that the forked article isn't a half and half split of this one so much as it is a child article filled with enough cohesive details to stand on its own as an article. If you want to put it at Anakin Skywalker, I could be convinced, but that may lead to certain confusions.

Furthermore, this way we'll have two featured articles instead of just one. What fun!

I'm willing to accept any comment on this proposal as well as any opposing proposals. — Phil Welch 21:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on Philwelch's proposal

  • I appreciate this effort (and see that it was proposed earlier), but I agree with prior assetions that this proposal is an unbalanced and confusing way to treat the Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader dichotomy. For balance: should we redirect Darth Vader to Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars sequels? If not (or even if so), there's no reason to obfuscate two unique and major characterisations (e.g., different actors, different sagas, different eras) in the proposed manner. Users will instinctively search for Darth Vader or Anakin Skywalker (a spade is a spade), and there's no reason to belabour this through unnecessary redirects. In addition, as indicated above, there are also almost as many online references to the latter as to the former (in addition to the wealth of information for each). Moreover, the official website sees fit to have an article each for A. Skywalker and Darth Vader. If done properly, cohesion between two articles can be maintained and giving th AS article a cryptic name wouldn't serve any purpose. In summary: this proposal is insufficient – while advocating for a child article, the proponent's separation isn't equal. Or (to extend the current metaphor): this isn't a fork, it's a dull knife. E Pluribus Anthony 23:44, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • As well, from what I can gather above, Silence disagreed with your proposal, so you passing off yours as a mere variant of S's is totally misleading. I will wait one more day before posting an RfC. E Pluribus Anthony 23:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not misleading. I was originally opposed to splitting the article at all. Silence, as far as I can tell, wanted the Anakin Skywalker article to be an "early life of Anakin Skywalker" type article. My proposal was based on his with several changes of my own. Let's just set aside this "agreement/disagreement" nonsense for a moment and tell me what you want different. — Phil Welch 00:51, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • I beg to differ about leading Wikipedians down a potentially garden path: I can find no assertion from S. above supporting what you propose, but can find numerous comments above that support one article or even two. A spade is a spade. However, I'm all about mutualism and will forego disagreements as a gesture of good faith and as long as that is reciprocated ... and this hasn't necessarily been exemplified in this discussion. As stated, I support whatever the consensus is, with a mild preference for two articles. Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony 05:19, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • "There is an enormous precedent for, and a great detail of common sense in, creating sub-articles, satellite articles, sister/daughter/mother articles, or whatever you prefer to call them, when an article becomes too large. See, for example, Hugo Chavez and Early life of Hugo Chavez…the most obvious way to divide this article, such that two high-quality articles can be made on both sides of the divide, is to have one article for Early life of Darth Vader and one for Darth Vader" --Silence, as quoted from above. If we're interpreting him differently, fine—but his basic idea, as expressed there, is something I tried to preserve in my proposal. That might not be so important in a little bit though...— Phil Welch Katefan's ridiculous poll 05:28, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • This is exactly my point: I agree with S. statement and interpret it fine: a thorough read above (and in the history) will indicate that you have not supported such an ... articular dichotomy with consistency. I do not think your recent proposal, unfortunately, addressed S.'s (or other) positions adequately. However, I have no intention of belabouring this issue with Wikipedians who are on the road to consensus or 'conversion' ... if not already. Thanks!  :) E Pluribus Anthony 05:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

General Comments

  • I support having a single balanced article or two discreet ones; given the wealth of information and numerous dichotomies, two would make sense and prefer this. If a consensus decides on having only one article (and one does not exist), I would support this if and only if such an article is balanced; the current article, despite ongoing attempts, is not there yet.
  • In the case of two articles, I support the proposal, outlined above (and below, with mild mod):

EPA's (et al.) proposal

    • Darth Vader article:
      • Pre-spoiler intro, with infobox giving Darth Vader characteristics (sith/cyborg/etc.)
      • Brief summary of early life as Anakin Skywalker
        • pointer to main Anakin Skywalker article.
        • summary of involvement in episodes 1-3
      • .... additional sections giving details of the later parts of life in service to the empire.
    • Anakin Skywalker article:
      • Pre-spoiler intro, with infobox giving Anakin Skywalker characteristics (jedi/human/etc.)
      • ...various sections giving details of involvement in episodes 1-3
      • Brief summary of later life as Darth Vader
        • pointer to main Darth Vader article.
        • Summary of involvement in episodes 4-6, and in particular the end of ROTJ
E Pluribus Anthony 23:51, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on EPA's proposal

  • OK, an even split. I have some concerns with the apparent redundancy here, but this plan could work, and does solve the problem (and I concede there is a problem) in titling the articles. In this situation we would have two cohesive articles covering the whole of the story—not just one—but with different emphases. Finally, this will definitely land us in double-featured-article land. I'm not signing off just yet but I'm very likely to agree with this. — Phil Welch 01:02, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you! Yes: I do not share your concerns about redundancy and believe cohesion (yet mystique) can be preserved. We must work together to realise this! I would also be careful about nominating such articles for featured status just yet; I've noticed there being a 'bias' against elevating articles in Wp about fictional characters/works. However, hope springs eternal! :) E Pluribus Anthony 05:27, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

More Comments on EPA's proposal

When reading through this I was in agreement with those who thought that the two articles should be split, and my thoughts on how this should be done were somewhere along the lines of what EPA is proposing. I am personally suprised that, in the argument for the split, no one has yet to go and quote the origional trilogy (if someone did, and I missed it somewhere, my appologies). In Episode IV, Obi-Wan talks as though Darth Vader is an enterly different person from Anakin Skywalker "He betrayed and murdered your father". It isn't until near the end of episode V that it is actually revealed that the two are one and the same. In episode VI, Obi-Wan still talks somewhat as though Darth Vader is a seperate person, by saying "the good man who was your father was destroyed". If the origional trilogy talks as though the two are individual, that should be enough support in favor of the two splitting.Dr. B 03:35, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

While that's true you have to keep the context in mind—Obi-Wan and Yoda have a plan, and that plan is for Luke Skywalker to kill Darth Vader. Keep in mind that in Episode III, Obi-Wan begs Yoda that he not have to face Anakin. Yoda responds by telling Obi-Wan this interpretation of events—so Obi-Wan can bring himself to kill Anakin. It doesn't work, as we know, but Yoda and Obi-Wan spend the next 19 years convincing themselves this is how it is so they can basically get Luke to kill Vader without hesitation. (A big reason they stop him from facing Vader until he's ready is that it's only by losing to Vader that Luke ever hears the revelation.) Finally, after Luke turns around and confronts Obi-Wan and Yoda about this, Yoda simply notes, "Your father he is", while Obi-Wan talks about "a certain point of view". But in this context, I really see Obi-Wan's attitude as just a rationalization. After all, Luke's faith that the good in his father hasn't been destroyed completely is ultimately how Luke is able to resist the dark side and how Anakin is able to find redemption. — Phil Welch Katefan's ridiculous poll 03:46, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! As the initial characterisation of Darth Vader by Obi-Wan is something which occurred in the initial saga (eps IV and V above), I feel this should be dealt with (if split) largely in the Darth Vader article. I would note only germane elements in the Anakin article (like the substantial history of events before the original saga ... the tragic friendship between the two in the prequels) where they possibly contradict interpretations and characterisations in the original saga. E Pluribus Anthony 05:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The above aside, I'm still leaning toward EPA's proposal :) — Phil Welch Katefan's ridiculous poll 04:01, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As do I. The Wookieepedian 04:35, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! And remember, it really isn't my proposal: I rehashed it from another user above (who added it with an anon IP). :) E Pluribus Anthony 05:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
["anon IP"] Actually far from anonymous - it's a static IP used only by 1 person, and therefore traceable to a real identity - compared with the 'anon' pseudonym I would otherwise edit under if I were logged in... just sticking to using this ID for editing this page in order to maintain continuity - understandable that "EPA" is easier to type when referring to the suggestions though ;-) --83.151.213.148 19:46, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I hear you; it is, indeed, difficult to refer to users through numbers – Borg drones notwithstanding – (hence me using et al. above) and the user who suggested the idea, et al. should really get a username to reduce ambiguity or potential skepticism about contributions. Thanks for the input! :) E Pluribus Anthony 21:28, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

yourname's proposal

If you have a proposal that differs significantly from the above, detail it here and retitle the section

Proposed RfC!?

Hello! Based on the above, I think there's general (though not unanimous) agreement to split this one article about DV into two: one focusing on the younger Anakin Skywalker and another focusing on the transformed Darth Vader. Great!

Given this, an RfC may be unnecessary. As also noted above, however, I propose the following RfC (or something like it) to validate this decision or to guide our actions otherwise:

Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker: one article or two articles?

  • There is a wealth of information about Darth Vader (renowned from the original Star Wars trilogy of movies) and his younger self, Anakin Skywalker (recounted in the recent prequel trilogy). Given the dichotomy of this very important film character – spanning two sagas and eras – and ongoing discussion in Wp about the single article (AS redirects to DV), do you think the current article is sufficient or should it be split into two: one each for DV and AS?
    • I think that the article should remain in one piece. Whether the current version is adequate or not, I cannot say. DrKC9N 22:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Do you have a reason you think that the article should remain in one piece? You have nothing to support your statement. I could say that I think something too, but without anything behind it, it blows over like a snowflake in the wind.


Make additions above with brief signed comments below. If there are no objections or comments before 6 December 2005, 23:59, I will post this RfC appropriately. Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony 02:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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