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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sulmues (talk | contribs) at 13:23, 24 September 2009 (→‎Infobox dispute). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

There is a standard on wikipedia

for all states that FLAG and Coat of Arms are in TOP the flag have to be in top then the map --Lontech (talk) 21:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


check


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany


same standard for flag --Lontech (talk) 21:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Those countries are formally recognized by practically every country in the world. J.delanoygabsadds 21:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

LOL check ISRAEL [3]

...--Lontech (talk) 22:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Israel is also recognized by nearly all countries in the world. Kosovo is not recognized by at least two permanent members of the UN Security Council, besides a good number of other countries. J.delanoygabsadds 22:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then check out TRNC, it has no UN-seat and it is only recognized by 1(ONE!) country, nevertheless it has it's countrybox on top. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.74.24.97 (talk) 08:26, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Recognition is a mere satisfaction of the statehood, establishment of security, and active a more an ability to cohabit with with those you desire rather those you need to. In the case of Kosovo, which fulfills the criteria of a state, enjoys its sovereignity in its very definition. Switzerland did not care about what Security of Council of some organization did not join until 2002 really had to say or decide. One of the permanent members, PR China defacto recognizes Kosovo passports, their Vienna and other Embassies issue visas on diplomatic and citizens on the Passport of the Republic of Kosovo. China's liaison office in the Republic of Kosovo, suggests citizens that obtaining visa, they must go to Consulate of PRC Embassy in Vienna, Austria. [4]--SpanishBoy2006 23:29, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

@J.delanoy at Least are three USA, UK, and France that recognized KOSOVO also its only first year for Some of the Yugoslav republics took up to 4 years to get the first recognition Kosovo is very succesfull with recognitions only within a year took about 60 recognition

about 40 states dont recognize ISRAEL LOL is there a LIMIT to put STATES on wikipedia you will put limit for kosovo untill kosovo reaches for example that number LOL

being a state doesnt mean to be recognized by everyone —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lontech (talk • contribs) 00:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If u dont put flag on top i think this would be PURE discrimination —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lontech (talk • contribs) 00:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So, Kosova or Kosovo isn't a state because UN says so? What if the UN disbands tomorrow? Is UK a STATE, what about Italy, Spain or Mexico? The POV pushers seem to be pushing different "standards" to fit their interests. As a commenter stated Swiss was not a UN member until 1992. China isn't recognized by 21 countries. Taiwan, etc. Again, I thought WP had WP rules & guidelines not those of United Nations. Ari d'Kosova (talk) 00:32, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Check Scotland. It isn't recognized by ANY other country and it still 1) is a COUNTRY in Wikipedia; 2) has FLAG and Coat of Arms on TOP. Stop contraddicting Wiki rules at Serbian pleasure. --66.65.213.82 (talk) 01:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I changed from "state" to "country". If Scotland is a country, so is Kosovo.sulmues (talk-- 01:20, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is NOT a forum! --Cinéma C 02:26, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why doesn't Kosovo just have a standard country flag,map, state page - If South Ossetia can have it i dont see why Kosovo can't. Also England, USA and many other english speaking countries (that use english wikipedia) recognise it ? (Neostinker (talk) 16:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC))[reply]
I don't think Cinéma C or Nishkid64 will be able to answer that question as they are too busy banning who is not a Serbian nationalist.-- 13:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sulmues (talk • contribs) [reply]
Anyone is against putting the Flag and Coat of Arms on top? Please let me know, I'm trying to build a consensus that Flag and Coat of Arms stay on top as Wikipedia standard requires. Agree or disagree?Sulmues (talk 18:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've wondered the same thing. Why does Kosovo have all of these provisoes, stars and extra notes when South Ossetia and Abkhazia are treated like normal countries? I'm asking this in good faith and would like a straightforward answer. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 19:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Canadian Bobby here, there should be consistency between partially recognised countries on Wikipedia. It is unfair to represent Kosovo in one way and represent all other partially recognised states in another more superior ways IJA (talk) 19:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I am summarizing the above agreement to put flag and COA on top of the infobox as follows:

Agree Lontech talk no DisagreeJ.delanoygabs Agree User:SpanishBoy2006 talk Agree Ari d'Kosova talk Agree sulmues talk Agree Neostinker talk Agree User talk:Canadian Bobby talk Agree IJA
It seems like a broad consensus to me 7-1 (seven to one). Any others who would agree or disagree? I'll wait for some days and then I'll make the change, however, if someone feels that there is already broad agreement, please feel free to put COA and flag of Kosovo on top of the first infobox. sulmues talk-- 13:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a bit late, but, meh :P
Agree Île Flottante

Agree Me too! —Anna Comnena (talk) 15:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely Agree , as other editors stated, it's unfair to discriminate the article of Kosovo even though it has a much more advanced international position than Abkhazia and South Ossetia (62 vs. 2 recognitions), and still no country infobox on top. kedadial 20:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

um, we've only debated this like a dozen times. Why is this rehashed every two months? We can have a Republic of Kosovo flag at the top of an article the minute we have a Republic of Kosovo article. This isn't the Republic of Kosovo artile, it is the Kosovo article. The last time we tried this was in July, see here. Consensus was clearly against it, and it was reverted within three hours. Now fee free to revive this suggestion, but please make a minimal effort to keep track of the history of this debate. --dab (𒁳) 16:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notice where it says "...or whether it is a 'country', 'state' or 'province'. Any such messages will be deleted...". Adding the flag would open a Pandora's box concerning the status of Kosovo discussion. Furthermore, this is not an article for the self-proclaimed Republic of Kosovo, but for the territory of Kosovo which is claimed by both Belgrade and Pristina - therefore, everyone should stop pushing their own POV as a "standard". --Cinéma C 18:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your arguement is essentially flawed, the precident is set by articles such as Germany, France, Denmark and so on. So the use of Kosovo could mean both the territory claimed by Serbia and the country claimed by the republic of Kosovo. Therefore, the only way to determine which to use is by consensus. The name of the article about Germany is Germany, not The Federal Republic of Germany, and I don't think anyone would seriously suggest such a change. --Île_flottante~Floating island Talk 18:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Often a concensus can resolve issues. But as we are dealing with a situation in which sentiments are divided down two radically opposed lines, a concensus is not adequate. All right, if everyone who has an interest in Kosovo takes a vote on this, you may have a result of something like 60%-40%, or maybe 74%-26% in either direction. However, this again depends entirely on which particular people voted. So the only way to present anything here - and I know it is a tall order - is by using extreme caution and taking both viewpoints into consideration, and this often means being repetative to explain the opposing position, or using two sets of symbols to acknowledge both parties claiming to be the legal authority over the land. Evlekis (talk) 19:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So far I have 9 people agreeing and 1 disagreeing and to me this is very broad consensus already. Someone can make the change. Cinéma C or Evlekis have not specifically said whether they agree or disagree, but I would like to remind you that if you disagree, I will use your vote to take the flags and COA out of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.sulmues (talk-- 19:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You are right about there being wide hypocricy where Kosovo and Abkhazia/South Ossetia are concerned. But it does not give anybody the green light to make false statements on other users across articles by claiming that "as he voted this way there, he votes this way here too". Each user has a right to transmit his thoughts, and votes usually always contain footnotes by the user to explain his angle. I wouldn't like you to add me to the majority list because I don't wish to be on the opposing list either. I do not believe in a concensus here for reasons explained in my earlier edit; however, I wish to stress that I have no personal objections to including the Coat of Arms. I won't remove it, nor will I revert the edits of one who takes it out. It makes no odds to me, so my position is now clear and you can take it as you wish. Evlekis (talk) 19:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I respect your abstention which will not count neither as an agreement nor as a disagreement.sulmues (talk-- 20:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Evlekis has stated he believes there is no consensus. I agree that there is no consensus. Getting a bunch of people to write {{agree}} --~~~~ does not create a consensus. Sorry --Cinéma C 20:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, double standards, "a bunch of people writing {{agree}} --~~~~" seems to have created a consensus on Template talk:Kosovo-note (even though canvassed and then changed to your suggestion which was not on vote), why can't be a consensus here? kedadial 21:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is everyone forgetting that the flag and coat of arms are not widely accepted as symbols for Kosovo? Only the government which declared independence and those who recognize it, recognize declarations by that government, such as proclaiming the flag and coat of arms as being official symbols of Kosovo - Serbia disregards it, together with all countries that do not recognize Kosovo as a "state" and all the "state symbols". A country that does not recognize Kosovo's independence does not fly the Kosovo flag, but the flag of Serbia, and if Wikipedia adds the flag to the territory of Kosovo, instead of the Republic of Kosovo (where it belongs), Wikipedia has recognized Kosovo as a country and that is a discussion that is no longer allowed, as per the template and rule written above. --Cinéma C 20:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Serbia's province of Vojvodina has a flag and coat of arms in it's article and that article is about the Province of Vojvodina, but due to the complexity of this particular topic, this is not an article about the Republic of Kosovo or the Province of Kosovo, but about the Disputed Territory of Kosovo - which is claimed by those who apply the flag to it, and those who don't. This is why we have two templates, one for the Republic of Kosovo (flag and coat of arms included) and one for the Province of Kosovo (no flag or coat of arms) and it has worked so far, so please stop pushing your POV. Thanks, --Cinéma C 20:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Above you wrote in big letters that Wikipedia is not a forum, so please take a vote and stop writing things that make no sense. You are making impertinent comparisons between Voivodina and Kosovo and that is enough for me to stop reading your long paragraphs. I have read a lot of nonsense. Just say if you agree or disagree. We are taking a vote. @dab: we are trying to make somthing similar to the articles of Abkhazia and South Ossetia: have one infobox only. sulmues (talk-- 20:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"We are taking a vote." ?!?! Please read Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a democracy:
"Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary but not exclusive method of determining consensus is through editing and discussion, not voting."
"Elections and votes are only endorsed for things that take place outside Wikipedia proper, such as when electing the Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee."
See also: Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion and Wikipedia:Consensus.
Thank you. --Cinéma C 22:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to see what point of view is harmed by the article having a certain box before others? It represents a neutral point of view: it doesn't claim that Kosovo is a province of Serbia, not does it claim that it is an independent nation. And that is how it will have to stay for the foreseeable future. And seriously guys, quit the voting and {{agree}} tags, Afghanistan is more democratic than this place. ninety:one 22:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ninetyone, there already is a box for the Republic of Kosovo, the discussion here is that people want to add it to the territory box, which is on top because this is an article about the territory of Kosovo, which is claimed by Pristina as part of the Republic of Kosovo, and by Belgrade as part of the Republic of Serbia. If the flag and coat of arms, proclaimed by the Pristina government, are assigned to the territory of Kosovo instead of the Republic of Kosovo, it is incredibly one-sided --Cinéma C 22:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I know, I think I'm on your side ;) That's why I said "that is how it will have to stay for the foreseeable future"! ninety:one 20:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cinema C is correct, this article is not about the Republic of Kosovo (at least not entirely), as the lead says, this article is about "a disputed territory in the Balkans." That it is a disputed territory is why the government infobox is not on top. Prodego talk 22:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Following your logic Abkhazia's infobox should be at the bottom, or shouldn't exist at all, because it's even more disputed (187 UN nations haven't recognized).sulmues:sulmues-- 18:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Luckily Wikipedia doesn't do precedent. Just because we did one thing in one place doesn't mean we have to do it in all the other similar places. ninety:one 20:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think, should we put a template {{double-standards-for-partially-recognized-states|article=Kosovo|recognitions=62}} (html rendered: Kosovo article is under double-standards policy because it is recognized by more than 3 countries. Therefore, as a consequence for exceeding the limit of 3 recognitions, it will not receive the same treatment as others that are recognized by only 3 countries.) at the header of this page? kedadial 21:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's important to distinguish a territory from who claims it and as what. --Cinéma C 22:12, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's what you should go and tell other editors on Abkhazia (Talk:Abkhazia) and South Ossetia (Talk:South Ossetia). kedadial 22:33, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We can't compare apples and oranges. Go to Ossetia and you'll see what I mean. --Cinéma C 00:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you have run out of options, I understand, but you don't have to change the focus of the discussion. Forget about Ossetia, we're talking about Abkhazia and South Ossetia. kedadial 09:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox dispute

Abkhazia not Republic of Abkhazia has an infobox of a republic on top. Abkhazia is recognized by less countries than Kosovo (so in a way it is more disputed than Kosovo), furthermore it is not recognized by mos Western countries (unlike Kosovo). What you are doing is clearly pushing POV. —Anna Comnena (talk) 13:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. We should have only one infobox. Kosovo is governed by the Republic of Kosovo that redirects to the region with the exception of some enclaves that represent just a little minority. There should be only one infobox (for the Republic of Kosovo, because it makes no sense to have three infoboxes). As it is, it's plain ugly. So Cinema C is NOT right. By the way, why should 10 people try to convince 1 or 2 just to make a change? First that person says that "Wikipedia is not a forum" so that everyone has to shut up. Then he says it's "not a democracy" because we're taking votes, and at the end he'll make his own changes reminding that in Wikipedia you have to "be bold". Do I also have to be a Serbian so that I can make a change without being banned? Are the russians making the rules in Wikipedia, just like they make them in Google because of Google's owner? You might know that Kosovo is not represented as a country in Google, even though the United States, country where Google is incorporated, recognizes Kosovo as a country. I'm seeing the same thing in Wikipedia, even though Google didn't purchase it. Yet. sulmues (talk-- 13:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We are trying to discuss a really important POV issue. Your sarcasm and trolling is not helping at all. "...Wikipedia is not an organisation along the lines of NATO or the IMF...". That might be true, but it is not along the lines of Russia and Arab countries (most of which, BTW, have not recognized Kosovo) either. Why aren't you suggesting to remove the infobox of, let's say Abkhazia, if you are such a righteous Wikipedian? —Anna Comnena (talk) 17:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All right take it easy. I've deleted my last remark because for the very first time in the four years I have edited, I posted a message which was not meant to be serious. It was a joke to wind the masses up - something I enjoy doing. That is not the same as vandalism because another user could have easily made the suggestion for real. It was based on Sulmues's claim on three infoboxes being superfluous; I jokingly said "let's drop the one implying statehood". To that end, I have never claimed to be or tried to look like a "righteous" editor. On a serious note, I maintain that it is not the policy of Wikipedia to recognise entities. Wikipedia does not recognise France, the Dominican Republic or El Salvador. It is an encyclopaedia which has articles on them. It may refer to these as countries whilst not Kosovo or South Ossetia but there are reasons for this and nobody can pretend that Kosovo's level of status - whilst being ahead of Abkhazia - is equal to that of Namibia or Iceland. I don't wish to lose site of the discussion. The focus was not on whether to amend "disputed territory" with "country", but whether to elevate the infobox containing national symbols to the top of the page. There is no real problem with it, but just do not take liberties and pretend that the Belgrade angle on this is redundant. "Kosovo is a country - it is like Switzerland because it is landlocked - it is like Albania because of the language - it is like Portugal because they use the Euro - it is like the USA because it's got American soldiers in it - it is like Morocco because it is Muslim - it is like Slovenia because it broke away from Yugoslavia - it is like Greece because it was once Ottoman - it is like Cypurs because it has a flag baring its outline - it is like Italy because it is a republic - it is like Bangladesh because it has its own anthem" - and so on. Don't lose yourselves in the "country" cloud just because you are promoting the flag/COA. Evlekis (talk) 17:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it is rather ironic that Wikipedia's recognition is as important as another country's. (I know this discussion was not about that). However it is a fact, that in a way Wikipedia recognizes Abkhazia and not Kosovo. You can say all day "...it is not the policy of Wikipedia to recognise entities..." when actually, in the case of Kosovo we see that it is not so. BTW, according to Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Own_comments it is not polite to delete your own comments without discussing first. —Anna Comnena (talk) 18:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing to discuss. The comments were not meant to be serious. Restore them if you so wish. Again you and the other pro-Kosovo independence users are getting carried away with your own insecurity - sceptical of any single institution which casts the slightest doubt upon the statehood of Kosovo. This is an encyclopaedia, not an intergovernmental organisation; Wikipedia does not recognise Abkhazia, Kosovo or even Canada. There is no Wikipedian ambassador to Israel, or Wikipedia consulate in Cairo. And I fail to see what is so different regarding Abkhazia, the article clearly states "disputed territory". Evlekis (talk) 06:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
From the article of Abkhazia:
Abkhazia (Abkhaz: Аҧсны Apsny, Georgian: აფხაზეთი Apkhazeti, Russian: Абха́зия Abkhazia) is a newly created independent Republic (whose status is currently disputed by its neighbor, Georgia) on the eastern coast of the Black Sea. Since its declaration of independence from Georgia in 1991 during the Georgian–Abkhaz conflict, it is governed by the partially-recognized Republic of Abkhazia.
And from the artcile of Kosovo:
Kosovo (Albanian: Kosova, Kosovë; Serbian: Косово or Косово и Метохија, Kosovo or Kosovo i Metohija) is a disputed territory in the Balkans. Its majority is governed by the partially-recognised Republic of Kosovo (Albanian: Republika e Kosovës; Serbian: Република Косово, Republika Kosovo), a self-declared independent state which has de facto control over the territory; the exceptions are some Serb enclaves. Serbia does not recognise the secession of Kosovo and considers it a United Nations-governed entity within its sovereign territory, the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (Serbian: Аутономна Покрајина Косово и Метохија, Autonomna Pokrajina Kosovo i Metohija), according to the Constitution of Serbia (2006).
As you can see, it doesn't quiet clearly state "disputed territory". For comparision, I gave you as an example the intro of Kosovo, and maybe you get the idea of "what is so different regarding Abkhazia". kedadial 09:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is quiet simple: If the article of Abkhazia (note: Abkhazia not Republic of Abkhazia) has a country infobox (also only one infobox) which is recognized by only 3 countries, why can't the article of Kosovo follow the same pattern?
Now, let's be frank, Kosovo is recognized by 62 countries and some important international organizations (in contrast with Abkhazia and South Ossetia which are recognized by only 3 countries), so is it fair to treat the article of Kosovo as a special (oops, I meant unprivileged and discriminated) case? <sarcasm>Maybe Hashim Thaçi should beg 59 countries to cancel their recognitions in order for wikipedia to treat the article of Kosovo as the one of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.</sarcasm>
Honestly, I believe that wikipedia is not the place for double standards. Thank you. kedadial 20:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article already contains the information everyone has been screaming about these past days - the COA/flag infobox. So what now is the outrage? Do we wish to rearrange the boxes to place Republic of Kosovo on top? Are we campaigning to have the other infoboxes removed? Or is this a salvation attempt to keep alive the Republic of Kosovo infobox because somebody suggested delete it? Evlekis (talk) 06:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Let's make it plain simple. We want to make the article use only one infobox and that has to be the country box. And what we are requesting is a sync with the structure of these two other articles: Abkhazia and South Ossetia. kedadial 09:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, Wikipedia is not the place for sarcasm, so please be civil. All the arguments concerning why every case is unique (as Hashim Thaçi and his supporters often state) are listed above. Thanks, --Cinéma C 00:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"...as Hashim Thaçi and his supporters often state..." this is sarcasm. Whenever you cannot deal with an issue you try to de-construct it through sarcasm. If you cannot answer the question that we made 8 times until now, please do not reply in this section. Why Abkhazia has its own 'republic infobox' and Kosovo doesn't? —Anna Comnena (talk) 08:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's not sarcasm, Thaçi and his supporters really do state that Kosovo is a unique case. No sarcasm whatsoever. And I have already answered the question - the Abkhazia article is an article about the self-declared republic of Abkhazia, while this is an article about the territory of Kosovo. If you'd like to take out all the text concerning the "republic of Kosovo", create a separate Republic of Kosovo article (but discuss it first) and put the RofK infobox on top. If you look at the Serbia article, Kosovo is a lighter color than the rest of Serbia, while Georgia doesn't have these shades as the territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia are already covered in that article. This is not the case with Kosovo, as almost all of Serbia's statistics and information don't include Kosovo. --Cinéma C 16:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The answer to all of these problems is simple and has been mentioned many times: SPLIT THE ARTICLE. Have one article that covers the history of the area ending with a statement that "the region of Kosovo is currently disputed between Serbia (Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija) and the Republic of Kosovo. Links in each name would then take you to the appropriate article. Everyone complains that the Kosovo supporters are trying to make this article into the Republic of Kosovo article and the Serbia supporters are trying to make it into the AP Kosovo and Metohija article. However, the instant anyone suggests having separate articles covering the separate ideas, everyone starts screaming that these are the same thing and should be kept in the same article. They AREN'T the same thing, they are 3 different things. There is a piece of land called Kosovo (Thing 1), there is an internationally recognized province of Serbia existing on that land (Thing 2) and there is an internationally recognized independent state existing on that land (Thing 3). These 3 things each deserve articles, but they are all shoehorned into this one article. Therefor this article fails at being about at least two of them. Khajidha (talk) 14:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your constructive approach. But this time we are only trying to solve the problem with the infobox. Your idea of splitting was discussed earlier, however if you want to re-actualize it, you are encouraged to start a new section. Thank you! —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am just wondering, why does not anyone suggest modifying the infobox at Abkhazia article, since there are the same POV issues there? Why is everyone just using the argument "if there so, why not here"? Just to remind you of this option... --Tone 14:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually if you would see the discussion page on Talk:Abkhazia there are such suggestions. —Anna Comnena (talk) 15:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I personally think that Abkhazia and South Ossetia are just fine: and to me they are already partially recognized countries. You don't need to be recognized by the UN to be a country. The problem is with Kosovo that has 3 infoboxes to please somebody and it is making an ugly article to watch. sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 15:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)15:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article "looking ugly" is not a valid argument for making the article one-sided. --Cinéma C 16:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is a very valid argument. If an article doesn't follow Wikipedia standards, it looks ugly. For Kosovo we are not following best practices. I'm not trying to make the article one-sided, I'm just trying to standardize it. Try to understand that and do not make useless accusations.sulmues (talk)
"Looking ugly" and "not following Wikipedia standards" are two different things. There is one standard no one here can ignore and that is the NPOV standard. It would be inaccurate to make the Kosovo article look like the article about any other self-declared Republic on Wikipedia, as this is not an article about the self-declared republic of Kosovo (although a part of the article does concern that), but rather about the territory of Kosovo which is claimed by both Pristina and Belgrade. Instead of comparing Kosovo with Abkhazia / South Ossetia, it is much more accurate to compare Kosovo with Ossetia (a region whose North is a part of Russia, the rest claimed by both Tskhinvali and Tbilisi) or Macedonia (region). If there is such a strong determination to have the RofK infobox on top, I might support the creation of a Republic of Kosovo article (and the Province of Kosovo in that case as well) and each side would edit articles that reflect Pristina government activities and Belgrade government / UN administration activities in Kosovo, but never making it look like either territorial claims are widely accepted. If we look at the Serbia article, Kosovo is a lighter color than the rest of Serbia, while Georgia doesn't have these shades as the territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia are already covered in that article. This is not the case with Kosovo, as almost all of Serbia's statistics and information don't include Kosovo. Therefore, it may seem like the Kosovo article is comparable to the Abkhazia and South Ossetia articles, but that's simply not how Kosovo is covered on Wikipedia and it would be incredibly one sided to put that infobox on top. Provided that we have an understanding that this is an article about the territory of Kosovo, and not the self-declared republic of Kosovo, it would also open up the discussion about why the other infobox isn't on top considering that the majority of the world's countries do not recognize Kosovo. Yes, Abkhazia and S. Ossetia have much less recognitions, but once again, it's not the same type of article - nobody can compare apples and oranges. I hope everyone here understands that. --Cinéma C 18:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Saying Kosovo is a province (The Province of Kosovo), automatically is pushing POV. Kosovo is an internationally recognized country (this is not disputable). Slovakia is not recognized by Lichtenshtein, should we call Slovakia a province, how about Israel? Kosovo institutions and police (including Serbian policemen that serve under Kosovo institutions) together with EULEX are the only governing institutions. There is no Serbian institution, no Serbian police, no Serbian solider, no Serbian customs official in Kosovo. Your argument are clearly not well though. If we do not put the republic infobox on top, we are taking sides. —Anna Comnena (talk) 19:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. Calling Kosovo a country is no less POV than calling it a province, and please refrain from calling Kosovo either one of those here, as per template on top of the talk page. Kosovo is a territory that some claim as a province, some as an independent republic. In favor of the province status we have UN Resolution 1244, other international documents, and the majority of world states which do not recognize Kosovo; while Kosovo's independence declaration and a minority of countries in the world who recognized it are in favor of the country status. Every situation is unique and I personally think it shouldn't be like that - international laws on sovereignty and territorial integrity should apply to everyone, but some claim that they don't and that's why Kosovo declared independence. But it's not about what I think, and it's not about what any other user thinks. Nobody can jump to claim Kosovo as an internationally recognized country when it's not even recognized by a majority of world states, nor is it's independence accepted by the UN Security Council (whose resolutions, as far as I know, are binding) and is not a UN Member. Slovakia and Israel are all these things. This goes for the other side, and try to guess what would happen if a bunch of users here started jumping "Kosovo is Serbia" on the talk page. So let's just keep it NPOV, we are not taking sides if we put the territory of Kosovo on top, then having both RoK and PoK infoboxes below, and those two can be in which ever order you like (right now, the RoK is above the other one, and that's fine with me, even though it's representing the view of the minority above the view of the majority... but I don't think it's that big of a deal as long as the territory template is on top). --Cinéma C 20:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The difference here is due more to the number of users arguing for each side. The Abkazian and South Ossetia articles do not attract the number of people this article does. A possible reason for this is the difference in internet availability in Serbia as opposed to the Caucasus region. Also, those regions declared their independence many years ago; Kosovo only last year. Kosovo has increased in recognition steadily, they have not. This page is "news", those pages aren't. Ideally, there would be multiple articles for those areas that would separately cover each aspect. Until more traffic and more information is brought to those pages, they probably won't be split because of lack of data. 199.90.28.195 (talk) 17:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--Sulmues 11:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)== Infobox ==

I find it POV that articles such as the unrecognized Somaliland have their infoboxes upfront, yet a country with substantial recognition does not. Fonda4ever (talk) 22:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, the infobox is upfront. Jarkeld (talk) 22:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is precisely on the note that Wikipedia is not a ballot box that my whole point yesterday was to promote further discussion. I accept also that if COAs are being used alongside flags on Abkhazia and South Ossetia, it is as good a point as any to include these details. I admit that had the two breakaway regions of Georgia not been using their COAs and flags at the top of the articles that I would have been opposed to this suggestion. As they do have it, I don't see a problem; but do not take this as the first step in a journey to amend all text references across the site to imply a universally accepted independent Kosovo. All sides have to be represented. I am equally cautious not to over-represent the Serbian position. Evlekis (talk) 12:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This last sentence reminded me that Cinema C once said that when someone claims to be neutral, it's usually not the case. Both of you have serbian origins, and as such I do not expect you to be neutral, so I"m not going to buy your neutrality. The infobox needs to be changed because now we have 3-4 infoboxes. They are superfluous and make the article illegible. Procrastinating improvement of an article makes the article ugly and that's probably what some people want to achieve. We're having lots of philibusters and few editors who improve things. I propose that the infoboxes be merged in ONE INFOBOX ONLY!sulmues talk-- 18:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, because you can't represent two points of view in one infobox. Now keep the discussion to one place please. ninety:one 20:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fonda4ever, please don't call Kosovo a country as per the banner on the top of the talk page. This isn't the "Republic of Kosovo" article, this is the article about the territory of Kosovo, which some claim as a Republic, and some as a Province. Please keep that in mind. Sulmues, I don't have Serbian origins, and I don't understand why you are trying to use anyone's ethnicity as an argument - discuss the content, not the users or their ethnicity. The infoboxes can't be merged as they show opposing views on the territory. --Cinéma C 00:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cinema C, I reminded Evlekis of your own words. We are having a double standard here: Abkhazia and South Ossetia have one infobox and Kosovo has 3. You might go to Abkhazia's page and focus on splitting their article in two between Abkhazia the region and Republic of Abkhazia, if you don't want double standards, but I believe that having 2-3 infoboxes in each region-partially recognized country is just confusing for an encyclopedia. Therefore I propose again that we merge the three infoboxes and have 1 infobox only with COA and Flag on top as Wikipedia standards require. Please make constructive contributions.
Have you read any of the above comments? This is getting tiring... I mean, explaining the same thing over and over again... You can't compare apples and oranges, this is not an article about the self-declared Republic of Kosovo (like the articles about the self-declared republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia), but rather an article about the territory of Kosovo (like the articles about Ossetia or Macedonia (region)). If you'd like to create the Republic of Kosovo article, start a new discussion about that. --Cinéma C 18:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We cannot have one infobox (with the ROK insignia in), because that would imply that it referred solely to the ROK - and that would not present a neutral point of view. ninety:one 19:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but we could put the ROK infobox on top, ande leave other two boxes also. That way, everyone would be happy, or unhappy. Either way that is more neutral than this. —Anna Comnena (talk) 19:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Anna, what you are proposing is that, in an article about the territory of Kosovo, the Republic of Kosovo should be before the territory of Kosovo template? It just makes no sense. Visit Ossetia and Macedonia (region), and once again, I urge everyone to understand the difference between articles about self-declared republics and territories / regions. --Cinéma C 20:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Either we make the article about the Republic of Kosovo and Kosovo redirects there, or we merge the two infoboxes into one only. Someone just reverted the boxes btw.user:sulmues--Sulmues 17:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to have to assume that Anna is trolling. How on this green earth is giving precedence to one perspective of the situation of Kosovo (by putting that infobox first) neutral? This discussion has run it's course. ninety:one 21:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We should bring back two other infoboxes. But keep ROK on top, as other independent or partially recognized countries have it. If we do not put it on top, we automatically imply that Kosovo is somehow different from other partially recognized countries. And that is what only one side of the ANTI-PRO debate on Kosovo is saying. —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody said above, " The infobox needs to be changed because now we have 3-4 infoboxes. They are superfluous and make the article illegible. Procrastinating improvement of an article makes the article ugly and that's probably what some people want to achieve. We're having lots of philibusters and few editors who improve things." while I don't agree with that sentiment, Support proposal for a single infobox. we already have the text of the article to explain the situation and the number of infoboxes shouldn't be increased without limit. If the situation would be with 8-10 different POVs would we use 10 infoboxes? Let's stop the absurdity and explain the different POVs in the text. Hobartimus (talk) 15:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Having ONE INFOBOX ONLY WITH COA AND FLAG ON TOP will sensibly improve the article, simplify the overall comprehension of a "territory/country/you name it" from someone that hears of Kosovo for the first time and then the different POVs can be explained in the article.sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 13:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am against having one infobox, as this would imply that there's no controversy over Kosovo's status. I know that some of you are really pushing this because you support Kosovo's independence, but one should not allow their personal opinions get in the way of building a neutral encyclopedia. Take, for example, User:Kedadi, who "supports the independence of Kosovo", "supports the reunification of Albania" (i.e. Greater Albania), "supports a NATOfied Kosovo", "thanks USA for their dominant alpha-male role on Kosovo" (all this taken from his user page) and presents himself as completely neutral when it comes to the most heated Albanian-related topic that is Kosovo. It's obvious what the agenda of some users here is, and quite frankly, I think that this is an insult to all the editors who have made substantial improvements to the article not because they have a POV to push, but because they sincerely want a better Kosovo article. Those hiding their interests under the banner of "improving the article" need to really stop what they're doing and either put their POV aside completely or find a different place to express their beliefs, because an encyclopedia does not and should not serve that purpose. This is the only way we will ever have a neutral Wikipedia, and the only progressive path to better articles. --Nogrentain (talk) 03:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You have no substantial backup for your claim. Having one infobox does not mean that an article is pushing the idea that there is no controversy. This is far from what we are trying to achieve: simplicity in stating facts. There is already plenty of information in the article to explain the various opinions. But if having controversy for an article means to make a confusing article, then you are right, we have to make the article as much confusing as possible. If there are 100 POVs then we will have 100 infoboxes. For example if I wake up with the idea that the eskimos should have Kosovo as part of their cultural inheritance, and I find some claims of the eskimos on the net, possibly from "The Onion", I will put it in a little infobox. And also if I wake up and believe that I saw in a dream that Kosovo was the place where the mongols or the serbians had their cradle of civilizations, I'll put another two infoboxes and so on. We can have an infobox supermarket, where every nation can claim they were formed in Kosovo. Focus on content not on users: you make plenty of accusations that are not called for. sulmues talk--Sulmues 13:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your rants wouldn’t pass as arguments even in kindergarten. Why in the world would any Eskimos or Mongols claim Kosovo? You’re equating some made-up bullshit with known facts – that the majority of the world does respect United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 (which is binding) and does not recognize Kosovo’s declaration of independence, while some recognize Kosovo’s self-declared status. There are no 100 views on Kosovo’s status, either you respect Resolution 1244 which specifically reaffirms FR Yugoslavia’s (now Serbia’s) sovereignty over Kosovo, or you don’t and claim that Kosovo has it’s own sovereignty. That’s it, and you know it. But those who push for one infobox want to hide the fact that Kosovo doesn’t have the same status as other world countries, they want to hide it for one reason only – to push their agenda which is evident from their user pages and contributions. I’m not making any accusations, this is all obvious to anyone who clicks on their pages and contributions. It’s not about simplicity.

Kosovo has 4 infoboxes, 3 dealing with the most controversial issue which is it’s status, and 1 history infobox. How many infoboxes does Albania have? 4 as well. We can’t have “simplicity” and the expense of accuracy. When you have two completely conflicting views on something, you can’t put them together. How would that look? Having the independence declaration date, and right next to it “but that’s not valid”, or maybe having the government type listed as a “parliamentary republic”, and right next to it “province” – is that it? I’m sorry, but I have not heard a single good argument for this. The South Ossetia and Abkhazia comparations are ridiculous, as matters like this can not be compared – every case speaks for itself. Change in the article is always welcome, but change isn’t always necessarily positive. In this case, we should embrace the status quo, as it’s keeping the peace and you know you’re on the right track when the only ones opposing you are Albanian or Serbian nationalists ; ) --Nogrentain (talk) 23:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your keep throwing accusations left and right because your arguments are flawed: if they were correct, you wouldn't need to accuse people but would focus on content. But eventually you run out and then you start barking to editors. When the United States gained their independence from Great Britain, they didn't need to be recognized by the Ottoman Empire, did they? Or were they by any chance waiting for the first opportunity to be recognized by the Republic of Venice? Or were they not independent at all because the Kingdom of Denmark had not recognized them? Or is it "another case" and this one is specific? And if it is specific, why should it be specific to take into consideration only the Serbian POV? By this token the Albanian POV could be claimed in the Republic of Serbia article, where we should have two POVs, two infoboxes, two ideas: one that Kosovo is independent, and one that it is not. Is that want you want to do? Or is it again that Kosovo is specific and can be pushed left and right because it's a small country, while Serbia can't, because it's a bigger country? sulmues talk--Sulmues 12:01, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not making any accusations, I'm merely pointing out relevant information concerning the agenda of those who are using Wikipedia to push their point of view. The Kosovo article does not push the Serbian point of view, because if it was, the Kosovo article would not differ from the format of the Vojvodina article. Kosovo would have the title "Kosovo and Metohija", it would be called an autonomous province of Serbia, and there would be only one infobox - showing Kosovo as a part of Serbia. We're lucky there are no Serbian nationalists pushing for this because it seems that they have given up. Albanian nationalists, on the other hand, are not giving up on thier P.O.V. pushing.

My arguments are not flawed, they make perfect sense to any unbiased editor on Wikipedia. You, on the other hand, are trying to compare US independence (perhaps in a vain attempt to show your love for the US and gain some support from American editors) with Kosovo independence, something that was declared in 1776 with something that was declared in 2008... What an absurd argument, as there are international laws and resolutions today that didn't exist in 1776, etc etc.

"if it is specific, why should it be specific to take into consideration only the Serbian POV" - What the hell are you talking about? Are you aware that this article is considered fiercly pro-Albanian by most Serbian editors, even the way it is now? The Serbian POV is that Kosovo is an AUTONOMOUS PROVINCE OF SERBIA, not a disputed territory, country, or whatever. Read the article, you'll find that the only thing pro-Serbian is the damn infobox, which is, btw, the last one in the row. The main map shows Kosovo in Europe, and Serbia is shaded to show how some see it as a part of Serbia (but there is a border between Kosovo and Central Serbia), while, in the Republic of Serbia article you mentioned, the Albanian POV is respected and presented as well - Kosovo is shaded on the map. But please realize that this is not the Republic of Kosovo article, this is an article about the territory of Kosovo - which is claimed as the Republic of Kosovo and the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija, depending on the world government or individual you're talking to. If you don't like that both views are covered in this article, feel free to take out everything concerning the Republic of Kosovo and create a separate Republic of Kosovo article, but make sure to create an Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija article as well, in order for things to be fair. In that case, this article will only talk about Kosovo's early history, geography, natural resources, etc, etc, and the political stuff will be left for the two articles with the Albanian and Serbian points of view.

Also, look at the sentence on top of this talk page: "This is not a forum for general discussion of Kosovo, or whether it is a 'country', 'state' or 'province'." - so everyone, please, stop debating what the status of Kosovo is. It's a disputed territory, and the article is about that territory, which is claimed by the Belgrade and Prishtina governments. No one side will have it's way in the Kosovo article. Deal with it. --Nogrentain (talk) 00:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The pathos with which you write handles me the impression that your arguments are weak. You write three big bubbles and you still don't answer my question. Since you did not have the time to read it I am going to repeat it again: Since we should have two POVs in this article (represented by two infoboxes), the Albanian POV could be claimed in the Republic of Serbia article, where we should have two POVs, two infoboxes, two ideas: one that Kosovo is independent, and one that it is not. Is that want you want to do? Please answer and we will know whether what you want is that we go to the Serbia articles and amend all of them so that we have the Albanian-Kosovar POV in ALL OF THEM! sulmues talk--Sulmues 13:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

...and even more about ther exciting Infobox

I don't know why are you clinging on Ossetia. We are discussing about Abkhazia and South Ossetia. To remove your option to cling on Ossetia, lets forget about South Ossetia and talk about Abkhazia (there is no North Abkhazia).
You still have not answered the question: Why should the article of Abkhazia be treated that way while the article of Kosovo to be treated this way?
If you say that this article is about the territory of Kosovo and not the Republic of Kosovo then why the article of Abkhazia is about the Republic of Abkhazia and not the territory of Abkhazia?
If you say that we can't compare apples and oranges, then among all the differences that Kosovo and Abkhazia have; they do have something in common: Their sovereignty over the territories that they claim is disputed.
So, why does wikipedia keep treating these two articles in completely two different ways?
I propose a sync of the structure of this article with the structure of the article of Abkhazia.
Thank you. kedadial 09:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are two articles for the current status of Abkhazia. The entity as is recognised by most of the world's countries is found on the Government of the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia article. I guess that on this principle, Abkhazia can be moved permanently to Republic of Abkhazia whilst the article can take on a more general content regarding the territory itself. But even if this doesn't go ahead, we cannot go accusing editors of Kosovo and Abkhazia of using double standards; with me not being an expert on Abkhazia nor watching the article as closely as Kosovo, there may be a multitude of reasons why that one occupies the nominal Abkazia page. Those reasons may go hand in hand with Cinema C's point that this page is devoted to the region on the whole. Before we raise the issue on Abkhazia, we can't establish this. In addition, WP has hundreds of thousands of pages and there cannot be one universal standard for everything. Each article has to be judged on its own merits. Where do we go from here? Evlekis (talk) 15:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"The entity as is recognised by most of the world's countries" This is false. "The entity recongised" by most of the world's countries is called Georgia. And that article starting with "Government of..." it's not a territory it's not an "entity" it's a government as the name states quite clearly. It's not even in the same class of articles as country and region articles. Hobartimus (talk) 14:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Borders with...

I started a corresponding thread on Serbia's discussion page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Serbia#Borders_with... Please chime in. July 2009 developments cited here [5]: Serbia has agreed to set up a full operational border and custom control with its southern neighbor, the Republic of Kosovo. Serbia's interior minister during a press conference emphasized that Serbia has agreed to set up a border and custom control with Kosovo as one of the requirements by the European Union commission. clearly suggest that claiming in our article that Kosovo borders with Central Serbia is POVization. If there is an international border agreed to here, clearly border control is taking place, and Kosovo borders on Serbia and Serbia on Kosovo. Thoughts? --Mareklug talk 11:56, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, it's completely POV pushing to say that it borders Central Serbia instead of Serbia. <sarcasm>It's unfair for other neighboring countries, when the article says: "Kosovo is landlocked and bordered by the Republic of Macedonia to the south, Albania to the west, the region of Central Serbia to the north and east, and Montenegro to the Northwest.", it doesn't point out with which parts of these countries Kosovo borders.</sarcasm> I Agree that Serbia in this case should be treated as the other bordering countries. Thank you. kedadial 15:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would advise a concensus here before any alterations, otherwise we may have similar edit disputes like the ones recently witnessed. I fear that any reference to Serbia as a whole being outside of Kosovo - which is what is being implied - will result in further disturbances on Kosovo status related issues. The vast majority of articles which mention Kosovo contain an immediate footnote explaining the situation of Kosovo. To state that Kosovo borders Serbia would not require this message; therefore you could even amend the opening sentence to replace "disputed territory" with "country". I see a pattern emerging here. Supporters of Kosovan independence will rally behind "borders Serbia" and opponents will reject it. I think the problem here is too many people are getting carried away with the fact that Belgrade's parliament has commissioned border transits along the Kosovo frontier. Although pressured into taking such measure from outside, it doesn't change the fact that police and customs control had been in place on Kosovo's exits ever since the 1999 handover to the UN. Serbia however continues to recognise its central region as bordering one of its premises administered by UNMIK. So the recognition is of UNMIK - rather like the Ottoman Empire observing the Austro-Hungarian occupation and administration of Bosnia and Herzegovina between 1878 and 1908 after which the Habsburgs decided to make it theirs. Either way, the Ottomans didn't recognise an independent Bosnia. Evlekis (talk) 13:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's still refereed to as an administrative border. Recent changes towards that only reflect upon the upcoming visa liberation for citizens of Serbia starting 1st January 2010 and increased security measures and people control on the administrative line due to high crime/drug/human trafficking and other political problems in Kosovo. wexy (talk) 14:09, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

last time I checked it was disputed whether Kosovo was part of Serbia. If that's still the case, you can hardly logically claim that Kosovo borders on Serbia without the qualification that this is the view of one side in a dispute. We also do not claim in Wikipedia's voice that Kashmir borders on Pakistan, for example. --dab (𒁳) 14:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend that for the moment, we stall on this topic. Try to avoid it, if we can. It may be unfair to suggest that Kosovo borders Central Serbia, so we can find a better way of rephrasing it. For instance: Kosovo is disupted by Serbia, the territory otherwise borders Montenegro, Albania and Macedonia - all of whom recognise Kosovo. This way you can avoid mention of Serbia bordering and cut out references to Central Serbia at the same time. Evlekis (talk) 17:16, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'v been observing this discussion for a while (without taking part) and this last idea from Evlekis seems pretty neutral! —Anna Comnena (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Evlekis and Anna. --Cinéma C 18:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks both of you. I've made one attempt to rephrase the text at this stage. I must admit that giving the full picture using as few words as possible is difficult. In addition, nobody wishes to prolong all this discussion that Serbia disputes Kosovo yet it is equally misleading to disclude it on important issues. The whole situation is ugly to say the least. By stating that Kosovo forms a continuous land with Serbia, I am not suggesting that Kosovo is or is not part of Serbia. It is just to indicate that the land is attached. If this were an island group (such as the Comoros), the breakaway territory may have been an entire island (such as Anjouan); equally this island's independence was disputed by the Comoros (before retaking it) but it could never have been said that Anjouan bordered the Comoros - only through a maritime boundry. I accept that this revision of mine may need work, so feel free to poke at it. Evlekis (talk) 06:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree too, but I would like to note that the statement that Kosovo borders on Serbia proper is simply a geographic fact and holds true regardless of whether you accept Kosovo's independence. This is another instance of the perpetual confusion of the state with its territory. The status of the Republic of Kosovo is disputed by the Republic of Serbia. It is not "Kosovo, the territory" that is disputed by "Serbia, the territory". These are pieces of land that may be the object, but not the agent in a dispute. If you squat a room in my house, it is not the living room that disputes the attic, it is my claim to the attic vs. your claim to the attic. The attic will still be located above the living room no matter whose claim has more merit. --dab (𒁳) 06:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is a very scientific example. Your point is clear. I suppose that Serbia minus Vojvodina and Kosovo had always been classed as Serbia-proper all be it unofficial. To be honest, even Central Serbia is wholly unofficial in any context. This is rather like England within the United Kingdom - the other home nations all having some form of self-rule but you have no purely English parliament or authority. But the question is, how do we present this scenario in such a way that we respect both the Serbian continued claim on the land as well as the opposing claim of independence? This is more about choosing careful words and avoiding the assertive attitudes upon which we acted on previous issues. Evlekis (talk) 07:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose "Serbia proper" is a bit like "England proper", but then Kosovo would be a bit like a hypothetical Cornwall with the Cornish-speaking population having risen to 90% claiming they are not part of England any longer but a separate Celtic nation. We would then have "England proper" being "England sans the Cornish-majority bits of Cornwall". --dab (𒁳) 10:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article pushes a Serb irredentist point of view

I think this articles gives way to much weight to a Serb irredentist point of view. Kosovo is both de facto and de jure a souvereign country, that is recognized by the international community including the U.S. and all major European nations as well as all of its neighbour states except Serbia. Kosovo is primarily a souvereign country, not a "disputed territory". Presenting it primarily as a "disputed territory" makes the article push a Serb irredentist point of view and is inappropriate. (Republic of Kosovo redirects here, which means this is the Republic of Kosovo article). Urban XII (talk) 20:20, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo may be de facto a sovereign country, but it is certainly not de jure sovereign. If this were the case then why is the matter of its independence being taken to the ICJ? It is utterly incorrect to say that it's not disputed. Clearly it is - and it's not just Serbia that disputes it. It doesn't matter whether you support the Kosovo side of the argument or the Serbian side, this article must give a balanced point of view. Saying that Kosovo is unquestionably a sovereign nation is POV and hence not allowed. Bazonka (talk) 20:34, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Republic of Kosovo redirects here because it was judged the overlap of a potential "Republic of Kosovo" article with this one would be too great. This still isn't the "Republic of Kosovo" article, "Republic of Kosovo" is clearly a sub-topic of this article, and it is in principle possible to create a WP:SS sub-article at Republic of Kosovo. --dab (𒁳) 21:09, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Serbia formally recognizes borders of independent Kosovo

Serbia formally recognizes borders of the Republic of Kosovo.

http://www.newkosovareport.com/200909171946/Politics/Serbia-formally-recognized-borders-of-independent-Kosovo.html

http://www.danas.rs/vesti/politika/srbija_formalno_priznala_granice_nezavisnog_kosova.56.html?news_id=172061 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spanishboy2006 (talk • contribs)

What you mean to say, "Spanishboy2006", is that "I have read somewhere on the internets that Serbia formally recognizes borders of the Republic of Kosovo." Please come back once you have a real source. See also WP:FORUM. --dab (𒁳) 17:36, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the source leaves something to be desired. The sentence might say "According to Kostunica agreement XZ means an implicit recognition of the borders of the Republic of Kosovo." Instead of you know. Serbia formally recognizes... Hobartimus (talk) 20:24, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who is Kostunica to make these statements? He holds no functions in the Serbian government, so what he's saying is as important as any former official or politician in Serbia or anywhere else. Stop spamming and trolling, Spanishboy2006. --Nogrentain (talk) 01:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

de jure VS de facto

de jure (concerning law), de facto (concerning fact) - I think the expression de jure is not being used properly. De jure is the whole problem of Kosovo, that is why the case is on the Court of Law. So Kosovo is not de jure a Serbian province, that is the real dispute. —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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