Talk:Cleopatra

There is Still Vandalism

There is still a bit of vandalism on the page. For example, under the Caesar and Caesarion Section the last line reads: "i can not beleave that she merriead her brother and had kids". It'd be good if this got fixed. Minathequeena (talk) 23:18, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

There is also nonsense about Isaac Newton. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.110.217.194 (talk) 04:33, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Cleopatra

"Cleopatra" should be directed to the disambiguation page. If you search for "Henry" you don't get redirected to say any of the "Henry III", so what makes this any different? There were many women with the title/name Cleopatra.

Cleopatra I of Egypt Cleopatra II of Egypt Cleopatra III of Egypt Cleopatra IV of Egypt Cleopatra V of Egypt Cleopatra VI of Egypt Cleopatra VII Cleopatra Selene I Cleopatra Selene II Cleopatra Thea Cleopatra of Mauretania Cleopatra of Macedon Cleopatra Eurydice of Macedon Cleopatra of Pontus —Preceding unsigned comment added by JanderVK (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Family Tree Is Wrong

There are serious mistakes in the "Family Tree" section. First of all it lists her sister Arsinoe before Cleopatra VII, in fact Arsinoe was her youngersister. It lists both her youngest brother Ptolemy and her son Caesarion as "Ptolemy XV". Both brothers of Cleopatra were younger than the famous queen. Where is the older sister Cleopatra Tryphenia? She isn't mentioned at all! It would be also a good idea to list each King or Pharaoh Ptolemy by their popular given names, such as the founder of the dynasty as Ptolemy I Soter (the Saviour) or Cleopatra's father as Ptolemy XIII Auletes (the Lute Player). 76.124.107.18 (talk) 01:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)buddmar

Actually the Idea that Cleopatra had an older Sister named Tryphenia is a historical misunderstanding. The only Ptolemy named Tryphenia was an Aunt of Cleopatra's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.131.23.208 (talk) 21:25, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

HBO content

this article needs further review because of some parts were taken from the TV series "Rome". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.244.175.139 (talk) 09:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Irrelevant

Was she a redhead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.72.25.210 (talk) 23:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of her physical appearence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.242.8 (talk) 06:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Cleopatra VII

Cleopatra(Philopator)Has been very popular throughout the entire world.She has been known to have three sisters.Berenice IV and Tryphaena.Her father was an honored pharoah of Egypt.Cleopatra lived in Alexandria,Egypt.When she was around 16 to 18,she married one of her brothers.then Julius Caesar,then Marc Antony.Cleopatra was last of the Ptolemies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.112.59.40 (talk) 06:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

how old was cleapatra when she became ruler —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.126.173.76 (talk) 00:07, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

She was seventeen or eighteen when she first ruled Egypt on her own. Tathunen (talk) 22:17, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Body

What happened to her body after her death? Burial, cremation...? A-G J-J L-C (talk) 19:22, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Octavian supposedly allowed Cleopatra a traditional burial to appease the Alexandrians. She was said to be interred with Antony, but the location of the tomb (and likely that of many other Ptolemaic monarchs) was lost over time. A popular theory is that the tomb sunk to the bottom of the Alexandrian harbor with the majority of the royal quarters during a series of earthquakes centuries ago, but no one truly knows for certain.Tathunen (talk) 04:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Cleopatra and Julius Caesar

The "Cleopatra and Julius Caesar" section of this article has been vandalized to read, "hi hi hi hi hi hi hi." Is there any way to revert back to the previous, un-vandalized text? Deadbeat 007 (talk) 03:13, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

the information about the assassination of Pompey comes directly from the TV show Rome, and includes a few inaccurate facts, as well as subjective opinions which are based on the television series portrayal of the event.DICK DICK DICK DICK DICK

Dates of Importance

There is a very bad error in the first sentence of this wiki. She was not born in January! There is no evidence supporting that, in fact many researchers believe she was a Libra, and therefore probably born in early October. There is no possible way she could have been born in January, this is awful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supercubz (talk • contribs) 18:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

She is African (race)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/also_in_the_news/7945333.stm --144.122.250.146 (talk) 19:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

She may be part African, no one is suggesting that she is only African. A better article is at [1] but there are a number of 'ifs'. Is it definitely her sister's skeleton? Even if it is, they had different mothers, so how relevant is Arsinoe's parentage? What we have is that it appears that someone who may be her sister might (note "it could suggest a mixture of ancestry") be partially African. I wouldn't be surprised, but so what? dougweller (talk) 19:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

No she was not 'African' nor 'part African', as these pseudo scientists are trying to claim. What is up with these people bound and determine to make the Ptolemies 'mixed' origins all of the sudden? They are basing their whole theory on the shape of a skull, methods that not only are outdated in the field of anthropology but on a skull that they DO NOT HAVE, and on suppose measurements taking in Turkey in the 1920s. Their whole claim that her sister Arsinoe was 'African' and therefore Cleopatra is their claim that the skull, which they DON'T have, is long shaped. How ridiculous stupid is that. Last time I checked determining a person's 'race' based upon the shape of skulls has gone out a long time ago. Not to mention the fact that long shaped skulls, the "scientific" term is dolichocephalic is also common among many other races including Southern EUROPEANS, what Cleopatra, Arsinoe and the inbred Ptolemaic Dynasty actually were in origin. So no, having a dolichocephalic shaped head does not mean she or her sister were of 'African' origins. As the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia by Charles George Herbermann shows, dolichocephalic, or long head shaped people were not viewed to be only Africans but Europeans, Middle Eastern, Asian too. [2]; The Framework of Human Behaviour By Julian Blackburn [3]. Bones By Elaine Dewar; Essentials of physical anthropology By Robert Jurmain ; The New international encyclopaedia edited by Daniel Coit Gilman; The rise and fall of the Caucasian race By Bruce David Baum; But like I said modern science does not determine a person's race based upon on such terms and on their skull anymore. Angar432 (talk) 23:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

A bit more on this can be found at these sites: [4] [5] [6] dougweller (talk) 12:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

They are so desperate to make this Dynasty 'mixed' origins that they would say and do anything. For the record the skeleton is between 5 ft 1 in - 5 ft 3 in, typical of Greek long-headed crania that representative of the bulk of the Mid-Helladic population familiar in Crete and Anatolia that were of short stature. There numerous things wrong with their dubious claims:

1) They give the skeleton remains a vague 200 year date range with that kind of dating she could be just about anyone from the Anatolian region.

2) No inscriptions identifying the "inhabitant" as Arsinoe.

3) No DNA to compare the skeleton to for identification.

4) No skull to conduct facial reconstruction and those they used based upon measurements from a century ago any professional would tell you are bogus. You need the actual skull or at least cast of the skull to conduct facial reconstructions.

5) An "unusual" tomb shape that wasn't SO unusual in the ancient Greco-Roman world; see Tower of the Winds an octagonal marble tower located in the city of Athens, Greece, near the west gate of the Roman Market by Andronicus of Cyrrhus around 50 BC; might or might not refer to a lighthouse that also no longer exists are evidence of pretty much nothing.

6) Lastly, people are forgetting the fundamental rule as to WHY her mother COULD NOT have been of 'African' or native Egyptian origins: because the only way a Ptolemy inherits the throne was if the mother had a direct bloodline to the Ptolemiac Dynasty, and a phantom 'African' or native Egyptian woman would NOT have a direct bloodline to the Ptolemiac Dynasty because she would NOT be of Ptolemaic royalty. The Ptolemaic Dynasty followed the matrilinear nature of succession, a system in which one belongs to one's mother's lineage; inheritance of property or titles through the female line. This is why extensive inbreeding matings occurred in the Ptolemaic Dynasty to prevent pretenders to the throne when they tried to bolster their claims by marriage to a sister. Such marriage though lead to amphimetric among different male relatives over the blood related female relatives of the Greco-Macedonian Dynasties.

Given this Dynasty's inbreeding habits, I very much doubt either Cleopatra or her sister Arsinoe were of 'mixed origins'. Plus inbreeding was a common practice among the inhabitants of Greco-Roman Egypt. There is unequivocal evidence of legally condoned and socially favored brother-sister and parent-child marriage among COMMON people from Roman Egypt, and people seriously question this practice was not widely spread among the Royal Family who's main goal was to preserve their royal bloodline? Unbelievalbe.

"The marriage of brother and sister was very common occurrence among the ancient Egyptians, practised by the Ptolemies as well as by their subjects. The Ptolemaic strain was probably a very strong one, such as that reported by Voisin, as it endured for many generations and gave evidence of powerful family traits. Many letters have been found addressed to "My sister and wife", while various other documents clearly indicate this double relationship. It was a recognized legal marriage, and occasioned no such condemnation as is now felt under the circumstances."~ Economic and Social Position of Women in Ptolemaic and Roman Egypt By Mary Staunton Glover

BROTHER-SISTER MARRIAGE IN ROMAN EGYPT; Brother-sister and parent-child marriage outside royal families in ancient egypt and iran; Brother-Sister Marriage (Angar432 (talk) 20:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC))

I just watched this suppose 'documentary', its mostly like watching a fictionalized movie, then a historical documentary. Here's the part of her supposed ancestry, which is all based upon a skull they do not have and of which they say "certainly looks more white European":

"We can look at the bones on the edge of the nose like showing the nasal root here between the eyes to tell us the prominence and width and shape of the nose."

"She had a very prominent nasal root, kind of like ancient Greek sculpture, that kind classical ehm nose shape."

"She's got quite a distinctive nose which is very straight, and I think now we find esthetically pleasing, its a beautiful feature."

"The distance from the forehead to the back of the skull is long in relations to the over all height of the cranium and that's something you see quite frequently in certain populations one of which is ancient Egyptians another would be black African groups will also show that characteristic ehm this one certainly looks more white European but it has this long head shaped it could suggest a mixture of ancestry."

So basically for them to establish that it really is Arsinoe they claimed her Classical Greek nose and white skull given she really was of Greek origins, a skull they don't have but call African-Egyptian because its long shaped, because I mean everyone knows since they ruled Egypt and Egypt is in Africa she had to have been African-Egyptian according to their ridiculous thinking, and even though long shaped skulls also common among many Mediterranan and Southern Europeans - the origins that we know Arsinoe and Cleopatra really were - we'll still just name Egyptians and Africans as having such shaped skulls since she did come from a Dynasty that ruled Egypt and Egypt is in Africa - throw in what they call "papyri-bundle" columns to give the story more of an Egyptian flavor, to me they looked like ancient Greco-Roman place holders found thru out the ancient Greco-Roman world, and whamo they magically come to conclusion this is really Arsinoe of 'mixed' origins even though most of their claims are dubious at best, such as the shape of a skull that is found in many other people including Southern Europeans; and even the though their own measurement shows the skull to certainly looks more white European then Egyptian or African but "we will claim its mixed because of its long shaped" even though as it was stated long shaped skulls also common among many Mediterranan people, including white Southern Europeans. Guess fiction counts as history nowadays. Oh and two final points, her age doesn't sinc up with Arsinoe's death and the tomb itself was build decades after Arsinoe was killed but lets disregard those pieces of information too in the name of fiction. Unbelievable. (Angar432 (talk) 03:39, 4 April 2009 (UTC))

-First of all, she was african which is a place-continent, Cleopatra was from Macedonian-Greek and Egyptian etc. origin;, and African as European or Eurasian or Mediterranean are NOT races, but continents and regions were the People born and with many diferent etnich nations groups within, mostly Atlantic-Mediterranean-Europeans-Eurasian-Northafricans, other Africans etc, in the case at the time. those terms are not "races". Get it for once. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.113.163.75 (talk) 14:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Angar432, thanks for taking the time to defend history against the politically-motivated revisionism and cultural relativism promoted by certain groups. Koalorka (talk) 00:22, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

My pleasure, Koalorka. :-) Angar432 (talk) 18:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Search for tomb

On [7] the search for the grave of Cleopatra is reported. Should this be included here, or is it too early yet? Wiki-uk (talk) 09:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah. And I saw this claiming "Most recently, a group of French archaeologists digging near Abu Qir Bay in Alexandria found the ruins of Cleopatra’s Palace. They, too, suggested that they would find the queen’s tomb, but nothing has been unearthed so far." --JustUser (talk) 22:33, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

No new news as of May 15. A brief mentioning should be added to the article if there is total confirmation. If it is all speculation at this point, I do not see a point in adding this to the article. If, however, it turns out that the location is the final resting place of Cleopatra, perhaps even a branch article to this one can be written about it. I would be happy to contribute with news articles, if that were the case.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 08:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Death of Cleopatra

Although Plutarch is writing some time after the events, he quotes the story of the death of Clepoatra by snake bite. A little further on in his works he seems to be emphatic that the snake bite story was only the common gossip in Rome at the time and that he personally didn't believe it.

Was the story of the almost painless and rapid death by snake bite a propaganda story put out by the Octavian party? An honest,if duped Roman, like Anthony did the honourable thing and fell on his own sword. This was a painful death but the "exotic" Egyptian queen took the easy way out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.93.199.154 (talk) 14:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Cleopatra's sons and daughters

The article currents states that Cleopatra's son Caesarian was immediately captured and executed after Cleopatra's suicide but this has no citation. I had always understood that he disappeared and no one actually knows what happened to him. Of course some believed that Octavian had him killed, others that he'd escaped, but I don't believe anyone actually knows. I guess I'm saying this bit needs to have a citation or it should be amended. - Jim Jay 87.114.150.100 (talk) 09:48, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Numbering issue

This article lists Ptolemy XII as her immediate predecessor, but in other places I have seen Ptolemy XV and Ptolemy XVI listed as such. Could someone look at a non-Wikipedia peer-reviewed historical article to solve that issue? -The Mysterious El Willstro 71.181.150.198 (talk) 01:38, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard of Ptolemy XVI. Her father was Ptolemy XII. When he died, she became queen. Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy XIV were her brothers, who ruled alongside her. Ptolemy XV was her son, Caesarion, also a co-ruler. john k (talk) 03:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Clepatra's true race

According to the program Cleopatra the face of a killer (Discovery Channel), scientists found the bones of her sister and have determined that they were of a mixed race. Possibly ancient Egyptian/African not Greek as thought before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.14.194 (talk) 05:34, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Please see the section #She is African (Race) on the talk page above. This issue has been thrashed out before, so let's not reinvent the wheel. In short, skull shapes prove nothing, since the local people of that area (West Asia) and the Greeks themselves had similar skull and body characteristics to Egyptians and other North and East African populations. Secondly, Arsinoe was a half-sister of Cleopatra, and whatever race her mother may have been has no bearing on Cleopatra because the two maternal bloodlines were different. Thirdly, there is only vague speculation that the tomb was that of Arsinoe to begin with - it is much more likely that the remains are those of a local princess. Wdford (talk) 12:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Cleopatra was not Greek? Are people crazy? That program being mentioned by by 67.182.14.194 is based upon nothing but fiction. No historical facts or scientifict evidence to back it up. There is no proof that either Cleopatra or her sister Arsinoe were of 'mixed African/Egytpian' origins except in the minds of some Afrocentrics and pseudo modern 'scholars' who'd say anything to get money that would keep their projects going. Nicely put, Wdford. (Angar432 (talk) 18:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC))

A phenomenal queen and I am doing her for my project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.64.141.199 (talk) 01:01, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Will people please settle on Cleopatra's month of birth?

For the past year the month of Cleopatra's birth has been continually changed on her page, from January to October, and back and forth. If there is no official consensus as to what month Cleopatra was born in, just list her birth as 69 BC, without stating a month. It is poor form to continually change the month of Cleopatra's birth. 115.186.192.146 (talk) 04:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)