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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by N for Neutral (talk | contribs) at 19:07, 7 April 2010 (→Passport image). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Moronic statment

The article says that Ottoman Empire defeated in 1389 the coalition of Serbs, Albanians and Bosnians and reference is, again, on Noel Malcolm. I really cant understand what Albanians had to do with that battle, and if you guys believe that Noel Malcolm is a guardian of all-knowing-truth about Kosovo history maybe you are making a mistake.--79.101.12.177 (talk) 23:24, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is a "guardian of all-knowing-truth about Kosovo". Links to him count as a source but you can use links to all the contrary material too. I am more concerned about the difference between Serbs and Bosnians. Precisely what is meant by Bosnians? People from the territory of Bosnia? These could be Serb or Croat. Does he mean ethnic Bosnians? That for a 14th century chapter is something difficult to prove and it requires more than just plain mention given the sheer complexity of Bosnian identity. Evlekis (talk) 00:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually - its worse, THAT article which is used as refference doesnt says anything about battle on Kosovo in 1389. Look for yourself. And, yes, it is a little bit unsure but as majority of Bosnian muslims call themselves as "Bosnaks" the term "Bosnian" would mean "people from Bosnia" no matter are they Croats, Serbs or (in that moment) members of Bogumilis church. And please, erase Albanians from that battle, it really has no sense. --91.150.79.36 (talk) 06:38, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But, there were no Muslims in Bosnia in 1389. So, no Bosniaks either... FkpCascais (talk) 07:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So, people from Bosnia then - as we know, Islam had not reached the area yet. Evlekis (talk) 21:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There was no "Bosnian" or "Bosniak" ethnicity in the 14th century, and consequently no "Bosnians" can have fought in the battle of Kosovo. Perhaps we should stop referring to this Malcolm character altogether. --dab (𒁳) 21:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Read In 1389 at the battle of Kosovo an army of Serbs, aided by Bosnians, Croatians, Bulgarians and Albanians, was decisively defeated by the Ottoman forces The establishment of the Balkan national states, 1804-1920 Volume 8 of A history of East Central Europe Authors Charles Jelavich, Barbara Jelavich Edition reprint, illustrated Publisher University of Washington Press, 1986 ISBN 0295964138, 9780295964133 Length 358 pages [3]. You forget kingdom of Bosnia with Tvrtko I in this sense they are labeled as bosnians as a political entity. Trying to define their national identity in 1389 is absurd Interestingly enough in this other book [4] she left out Croatians and Bulgarians while keeping Bosnians and Albanians. Propably their numbers were bigger than the others and in political situation of that period that makes some sense. Croats were far away, while bulgarians were mostly vasals at that time Aigest (talk) 15:09, 18 February 2010 (UTC) According to Scheville [5] also Vlachs should be included. This ones uses names but again bosnians and Albanians are mentioned [6] and for Ottoman chronicles you have a ref here [7] or here [8]. What we can see for sure in all these references Bosnians and Albanians are always mentioned as allies while the others appear and disappear and this may have the explanation I stated above Aigest (talk) 15:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that is something else right? Barbara Jelavich says "army of Serbs, aided by -others-". No "coalition" mensioned. As I said, that statment is moronic.--91.150.79.84 (talk) 15:33, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading part of the text: the text says China recognized Kosovo

The text says, in several places (2 or 3) that China recognized Kosovo. The text makes the following claim: "Its independence is recognised by 65 UN member states and the Republic of China (Taiwan)."

It references entity "Republic of China (Taiwan)" to Wikipedia's article on China (Republic of China), which is misleading act by the author of this (part of) Wikipedia's text on Kosovo. Why is it misleading? Because, as Reference 99 states, China DID NOT recognize Kosovo; on the contrary, China claims Kosovo is integral part of Serbia. Reference 99 clearly states, and I quote: "China condemned Taiwan for congratulating Kosovo on its newfound statehood, saying Taiwan does not have the right to "recognize" Kosovo."

Now, that makes the cited claim of the Wikipedia's text - false.

The following text: "Its independence is recognised by 65 UN member states and the Republic of China (Taiwan)." ...should be changed, i.e. part "and the Republic of China (Taiwan)" should be deleted as it is untrue.

I am not sure about the status of Taiwan and its UN status. However, if Taiwan is not a member of UN and if it is a sovereign state, then it should be mentioned THAT WAY, and not in a misleading way (which misleads the readers to believe that People's Republic of China recognized Kosovo as independent of Serbia, even though China did the opposite.; it might be, then, mentioned that Taiwan recognized Kosovo, or that Taiwan recognized but China did not (depending on the China/Taiwan status/situation).

Also, please check if there are other misleadings in the text, if contributions were made by the same "CLEVER" and cunning author.

22/02/2010 user: LepiKoja / neutrino —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.87.109.47 (talk) 05:49, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

EDIT: My mistake, sorry. From the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China page: "Not to be confused with the People's Republic of China." I didn't know that Taiwan's other name is "Republic of China". I guess majority of people don't know that, too, so I suggest this info be put in the original text, i.e. the arbitrary sentence to state the following:

"Its independence is recognised by 65 UN member states and the Republic of China (Taiwan; not to be confused with the People's Republic of China)."

This would give the reader the whole information. Without this info, many readers (like me) could be mislead.

Thank you.

p.s. I tried to change the summary now (in the light of new information), but the system didn't allow me to; please, if someone can do that - that would be good thing to do. Thanks.

22/02/2010 user: LepiKoja / neutrino —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.87.109.47 (talk) 06:04, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if this is really necessary. I would have assumed most readers were in fact aware that Taiwan (which officially calls itself the "Republic of China") is not the same as the People's Republic of China (the UN member state) — though if the consensus of editors is otherwise, I wouldn't object to a modest bit of clarification (but not so much as to risk igniting a Taiwan-vs.-PRC flame war here). In any case, I really don't think there was any intent to mislead anyone here.
It may be worthwhile to tidy up a few places in the article so as to make it clear that Taiwan is not a UN member state, but I would be hesitant to spend an unduly large amount of effort emphasizing the PRC-vs.-Taiwan controversy here. It may possibly be appropriate to say (in the "Declaration of Independence" section) something like "The People's Republic of China, which claims sovereignty over Taiwan, condemned the Taiwan government's recognition of Kosovo, saying Taiwan did not have the right to take such an action" — with an appropriate reference.
The reason "LepiKoja" wasn't able to edit this page is because it is semi-protected, meaning it cannot be edited by anonymous (IP address) users or by new accounts. Richwales (talk) 08:02, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is no reason to change anything. LepiKoja said him/herself that this article links to the Republic of China page. If he/she was confused he/she should have read that article before storming onto this talk page accusing someone of attempting to mislead people. Khajidha (talk) 15:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I second this.—Emil J. 15:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please, everyone, let's all remember to assume good faith. Richwales (talk) 18:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is actually a three-way enterprise. First there was Republic of China which was the big country bordering Russia and Mongolia. Then after WWII, the Communists rose to power and took control over the lands slice by slice. They proclaimed themselves the People's Republic of China, and referred to the entire Chinese territory. Taiwan on the other hand, lies within an area which the Communists never liberated (or invaded if you want to look at it the other way). As such, there exists a One-China policy whereby a country may either recognise PROC or ROC. Taiwain is in ROC, so Republic of China is correct. Now, the rest of the world had eventually chosen to recognise the PROC but some countries do still recognise ROC whilst others have fluctuated between the two, but there can be no recognising both - because they both lay claim to the same territory. More recently, we witnessed this with Afghanistan; the Emirate (Taliban) was recognised by three states even though it controlled over two thirds of the land, and the rest of the world recognised the State which was only active in the multi-ethnic north. TAIWANESE independence however is a separate issue. Yes it has been on the cards but it is something rejected by both PROC and ROC. So while PROC and ROC have developed de jure compromises, PROC generally accepts ROC entering the Olympics as Chinese Taipei (Taipei being Taiwan's capital). But nobody accepts TAIWAN as a sovereign entity. So to confrim, ROC recognised Kosovo, but Kosovo's assembly (for some reason of its own) has chosen to recognise PROC instead, even though PROC is not about the open a consulate in Prizren. ----Evlekis (talk) 19:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Typo

There's a typo under "Ottoman Kosovo (1455–1912)":
"Ottoman occupation left a lasting demographic effect on Kosovo — with full-scale dislocation of Chistian groups" - someone please change it as the article is locked and I don't have permissions.. Van nostrand (talk) 23:03, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of "and not recognised by ..."

I hope this will reduce bias inclined towards statehood. All the best, --Biblbroks's talk 20:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose your edits. That sentence that you altered has been discussed to death in the past. If you want to change it you have to reach a consensus first then alter it. kedadial 20:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, not needed. Just to let you know that 127 UN member states don't recognise Kosovo not 93 as Biblbroks. I would support saying something like "Kosovo is recognised by 65/192 UN member states". IJA (talk) 21:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

:::::Oppose. Just accept it is a country de facto and de jure. Rob the Invincible (talk) 19:25, 29 March 2010 (UTC) Sockpuppet, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Jock_No_Sock - Tadijataking 22:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree -Tadijataking 22:26, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also strongly oppose the inclusion of that phrase because it sets up the impression that all nations who have recognized or not recognized Kosovo are equally important. In fact, they're not all equally important. Recognition by the United States alone—just in terms of diplomatic significance—is worth as much as 100 of those other nations that do not recognize Kosovo...many of them developing countries in Asia and Africa that have very little influence in world affairs. Beyond the US, Kosovo has been recognized by the likes of Britain, France, and Germany, all heavyweights in global and European politics.UBER (talk) 22:43, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose non-professional.-- LONTECH  Talk  17:02, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Uber, is the purpose of this section to discuss the number of UN members recognising Kosovo or are we here to evaluate each state by awarding them "points" for their alleged importance? Of 192 members, the United States occupies one single seat just as do the Marshall Islands, Bhutan, Panama, the Comoros, Barbados and Belize. There is no such thing as "one of the big lumps is worth 100 of the minors". User:Evlekis (Евлекис) 10:32, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is not necessary to explicitly state how many UN members have recognised as well as how many have not recognised. You can imply one number from the other. To my mind it's a bit like saying that Nelson Mandela was the first black president of South Africa, and then saying that he was the first non-white president. There's just no need to give both mutually-exclusive facts. However, for clarity, we could say that 65 out of 192 UN members have recognised - this will enable readers to more easily ascertain the number of non-recognisers if they so wanted. Bazonka (talk) 10:51, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All right, look:
Template:Kosovo-note

This information already features on this template. Perhaps I am not with the topic here but where are we aiming to add (or disclude) the piece? User:Evlekis (Евлекис) 11:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we need to change anything. As far as I'm concerned this discussion can be closed. Bazonka (talk) 16:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
evlekis is not ethical to delete the text and the signature of others.-- LONTECH  Talk  17:02, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you would like to restore it, I will not remove it again, but one is well within his rights here to remove irrelevant nonsense. We were discussing a certain issue when Tadija crossed out the opinion of a known disruptive user who has abused many accounts including the current one. User:Rob the Invincible is, or was, a serial vandal called User:Sinbad Barron. I realise that his loss is a blow to anyone arguing matters on a pro-Albanian platform but he and his blatant puppets all have one theme in common and that is not welcome here. Then what happens? Tadija is accused by a user of being a puppetmaster. Unfounded, unproven and not relevant. That's why I removed it. User:Evlekis (Евлекис) 19:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
check this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tadija&oldid=317084943 -- LONTECH  Talk  20:06, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Evlekis, when it comes to recognition of nationhood, the diplomatic significance of the nation doing the recognizing is extremely important. The United States is the most powerful nation in the world, and when it decides to recognize a country, that decision reverberates across the world. It's highly inappropriate to compare the US to the likes of Barbados in the context of this discussion. I also oppose your proposed revision and would like to keep the current version of the lead for now.UBER (talk) 05:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I never proposed any revision. The text you were reading was not drafted by me but was from a template which is being used when identifying Kosovo as a state so as not to mention Serbia, if you examine the source instead of reading the main text, you'll see how that message appears. If it were inappropriate, it is only because I was not fully aware of the intended changes. The United States is influential, correct. There are governments however whose decision to recognise Kosovo is not based on inspiration from Washington. Saudia Arabia and the UAE for example can't be said to be following the States' example because both of these states (plus Pakistan who may very well recognise Kosovo soon) had all recognised The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (Taliban) when the rest of the world recognised the Islamic State. But there are many nations (eg. former Yugoslav republics, Baltic states, others, etc.) whose governments, as you rightly describe, need their nappies changed for them by the US; no disagreement there. I must maintain however, that the US still only occupies one seat in all institutions where it is signatury, and for all its influence, it still at the time of me writing this, has failed to induce 50% of the world's recognised governments to recognise Kosovo. Be that as it may, there is no way that any editing on Wikipedia can be based on one nation being more valuable than another. (User:Evlekis (Евлекис) 17:15, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well if there are no proposed revisions, then we're done here.UBER (talk) 03:57, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why all of you talk about me? Did i deserve it? :) Please, don't feed the trolls. Lontech was blocked for 4 months and topic banned until recently per trolling. --Tadijataking 16:36, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Passport image

This image does not really contribute to our understanding of Kosovo's declaration of independence, and either way I think better images could be found to gage Serbia's response to that declaration. A photograph of a passport is a little bit underwhelming.UBER (talk) 16:02, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the passport photo is not needed. However in UberCryxic's edit to remove it, he also (stealthily?) removed the photo of the Gračanica monastery. I then reinstated this image, which Lontech reverted with the comment: "no need to set it here because that picture for a long time is set in the place where the article Gračanica is. also may provoke other religions". That doesn't even make any sense. How can it "provoke" other religions? The monastery is a perfectly normal example of a religious structure in Kosovo, albeit one from the minority religion. Kosovo muslims can't object to it - there's no implication that it's from the only religion, or from a better religion. I just don't see what the problem is. Bazonka (talk) 18:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article never had religious content (picture), with reason. What you want to do with this is to create new conflicts based on religious views-- LONTECH  Talk  19:23, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How? Do moslems think that Gračanica doesn't exist? It is a religious building in Kosovo. If there was a picture of a mosque would the Christians object? No. This isn't taking sides. Bazonka (talk) 21:44, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I second Bazonka here, a picture of a religious building isn't taking a side. Kosovo is famous for it's religious buildings, regardless of what you think of independence. We should keep the picture of Gračanica monastery. That stamped passport image should be moved to the Kosovo Passport article. IJA (talk) 11:04, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Country

Can I propose and gather a concensus to now call Kosova a country. It has had it's heyday as a "disputed territory" but in reality is disputed by nobody except Serbia and her allies. The countries who recognize Kosova are all over the world, Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia and South America. Serbia has already established it's olwn border with Kosova and it allows people into Serbia who have been to Kosova. Serbia "de facto" recognizes Kosova and it's allies like Greece and Russia although not admitting they recognize it, do in reality. Kosova is in the world bank and I can hardly see the US "illegally" recognizing a state. Come on!!! Kosova is a country.

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