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The idea lab section of the village pump is a place where new ideas or suggestions on general Wikipedia issues can be incubated, for later submission for consensus discussion at Village pump (proposals). Try to be creative and positive when commenting on ideas.
Before creating a new section, please note:

Before commenting, note:

  • This page is not for consensus polling. Stalwart "Oppose" and "Support" comments generally have no place here. Instead, discuss ideas and suggest variations on them.
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This new Village pump page

This is the newly proposed "Village pump (development)" page. Its aim is to encourage the preliminary incubation of new ideas in a "non-polling" environment. When you have a new idea, it is not mandatory that you post it here first. However, doing so can be useful if you only have a general conception of what you want to see implemented, and would like the community's assistance in devising the specifics. Once ideas have been developed, they can be presented to the community for consensus discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals).

The formation of this page, and the question of its purpose and existence, are the subjects of discussion on the talk page. Direct all comments on those topics there.

  • This comment is purposely left unsigned so that it can be edited by multiple parties, and won't be automatically archived.

Limiting sockpuppet creation by requiring a verified email address during account creation

Sockpuppets are one of the scourges of Wikipedia. See: WP:SOCK. They may discourage more editors than almost anything else on Wikipedia. They ruin many articles for long periods of time. They waste lots of admin time. It is too easy to create sockpuppets.

A simple way to limit their numbers would be to require a verified email address during account creation. Currently, a verified email address is not required to create an account at Wikipedia. We might grandfather in all existing Wikipedia login accounts. All new account creations would require a verified email address. It will discourage many people from creating sockpuppets.

Logins at many places require a verified email address. That is where one gets a confirmation email with a link to verify. It makes it more difficult to spam sites with multiple logins and sockpuppets. Wikipedia could use the same method.

Many people, myself included, have multiple email accounts. One with my real name for family communications, etc.. One alias email account for Wikipedia and other editing and activism. One alias email account to receive list mail that I check less often.

There are only a limited number of big email providers: Gmail, Yahoo Mail, Hotmail, etc.. So once someone creates a few accounts it is problematic to create more email accounts with better-quality email providers.

Cookies make it problematic to maintain more than one account with any particular email provider. Signing in and out of 2 accounts with the same email provider takes time, and doesn't always work well. One can put one Yahoo Mail account with Firefox, and one with Internet Explorer. But then there are bookmark synchronization problems. Plus there is the time factor of checking multiple email accounts. So most people limit themselves to only a few email accounts. Even masters of sockpuppet farms will dislike all the cookie manipulation, email account creation, and remembering all their accounts. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be a good Idea. It would <censored></censored> me off if i had to create a ton of email addresses. But couldn't someone just use one email account for all their socks, or is there a way to prevent that? wiooiw (talk) 04:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if the current MediaWiki software settings allow the same email address with multiple Wikipedia accounts or not. Maybe someone else knows. Many other sites do not allow the same email address to be used for multiple login names. So I assume it can be done at Wikipedia if it is not being done already.
In my Wikipedia preferences I unchecked "Enable e-mail from other users". So my alias email address is not known to other Wikipedia editors in most cases. So I could create a sockpuppet farm without average editors noticing I was using the same email address. So I don't think using the same email address should be allowed for multiple Wikipedia accounts.
My real name is not used anywhere in my alias email settings, and so I maintain anonymity at Wikipedia, etc.. Registering with an email address mainly allows me to retrieve my Wikipedia password if I lose it. People have nothing to fear from the requirement of an email address during account creation. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:51, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This makes a lot of sense. The other thing is, though, that temporary email addresses should not be permitted either in order for this to work. {{Sonia|talk|simple}} 05:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean by "temporary email addresses"? --Timeshifter (talk) 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I mean that it is possible to mass-generate email addresses that expire after an hour, but are nevertheless valid at the point of registration. {{Sonia|talk|simple}} 07:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just for the record, there's no problem with having piles of email accounts with Hotmail, Gmail, etc; many people do so to segregate their mail. In fact, many ISPs grant half a dozen email addresses as part of their service, and will usually provide even more if requested. Finally, I am not sure that requiring an email address for registration would be in keeping with the WMF principles that overlay all of the Wiki(p)(m)edia communities, in particular the privacy policy, but also the "anyone can edit" principle. Risker (talk) 05:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have 2 Yahoo Mail accounts. One has to sign out of an account in order to change to another account. One has to then sign into the other account. I just tested it again to be sure. It is time-consuming and a pain.
There is no privacy problem for me. I am anonymous right now as I edit Wikipedia. I use an alias email account from Gmail for my Wikipedia account. My real name and info is not used anywhere in that email account's settings. I haven't used ISP email for many years. Many people do not want to risk losing their ISP internet access by using ISP email for spam and harassment. ISPs can be contacted and people can lose their internet access. My idea is not perfect, but it will help. Anyone will still be able to edit. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone can make an email account. Also, any limitation is better than none- I have 4 gmail accounts, two hotmails, a yahoo, plus several on relatively unknown sites and most of them forward to the one account, meaning I don't even have to sign into them. But it would still be a pain for me to have to type one in every time I make a new account. I'm not actually so concerned about fully-fledged sockfarms with this approach- it won't hinder them very much at all. I think it will be good for restraining users like Pickbothmanlol's account creation rate. Just stopping users "flooding" with new accounts that need to be blocked- or worse, oversighted. {{Sonia|talk|simple}} 07:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that the more you make it a pain in the neck for the sockpuppeteers, the more you also make it a pain in the neck for legitimate new account creators. Tisane (talk) 08:06, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Aye, but I have to fill out my email, check it and click on a confirmation link for many if not most other websites already. The proposal here is just that you enter a valid email address. It shouldn't take too much longer for your average netizen, but it will be a massive pain in the neck if I'm trying to make work for oversighters. {{Sonia|talk|simple}} 08:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are sockpuppets even a big problem? What potential do they have to negatively impact the project? Article content is determined not by voting but by reliable sourcing, manual of style, etc. And xFDs, blocking decisions, and such are determined more by policy and guidelines than by measuring numbers of users on each side. They could theoretically affect elections (e.g. checkuser/arbcom/admin) but there are safeguards there too. E.g., if a bad user is elevated to one of those positions, everything he does is subject to scrutiny by others, so there are limitations on how much havoc he can wreak. Then there is the fact that new users' comments in forums like xFD are usually flagged as coming from new users, which can clue the closing admin in to the possibility that manipulation is occurring. It would take a lot of time to create a bunch of accounts and then get them to a point of having a lot of good edits in their histories. I think we have enough mechanisms in place to prevent sockpuppetry from being a big deal. Tisane (talk) 08:35, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sockpuppets are a big problem. Sockpuppets become old users in a few months. Many last for years undetected. Less sockpuppets is a good thing. There have been campaigns and groups to create sockpuppets. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:54, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would actually take it a step further, and make it a requirement of editing. There is probably more time spent chasing random IP vandalism than there is in tracking down sockpuppets. The same argument applies - many sites, forums, etc. require an active email account to post. Why not here too? And it really doesn't take that much time that it is likely to deter new, genuine editors - but might just reduce the overhead burden placed on existing editors whose contributions would be more productively applied in tasks other than vandal patrol. It won't eliminate it all, but any reduction would be worthwhile, and requiring a valid email might act to reduce the persistent ones who seem to relish the wait for a block to be lifted to start their nonsense again. --Haruth (talk) 10:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Preventing IP editing is a separate issue, and should be discussed in a new thread. I have mixed feelings about that idea. Cost-benefit analysis, etc.... --Timeshifter (talk) 12:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now you've hit the third rail of Wikipedia proposals, the WP:PEREN "prevent annonymous editing", which has been done totally to death. Happy‑melon 13:08, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm ambivalent about requiring a valid email to edit, I think it has both upsides and downsides. But I definitely think that requiring each account on a project to have a different email address is a very bad idea. It's extremely disruptive to legitimate editors (I have three accounts, for instance, User:Happy-melon, User:Also-Happy-melon and User:MelonBot; do they really all need different addresses??), and no real hindrance at all to legitimate users. What we rather need is the ability for CheckUsers to do match-tests on email addresses: "get a list of accounts with the same email address as this account". Happy‑melon 11:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem with the same email address being used for multiple accounts if permission of an admin is required each time, and all the user names are listed on each user page.
I also don't think that initial implementation should require old editors to provide verified email addresses. Only new editors. We could see how it works out with new editors before thinking about phasing this in for old editors. We may never require old editors to provide email addresses.
Requiring a verified email address upon new account creation does not require action by CheckUsers, or anybody else, to work. It is preventive. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:39, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's just not viable to restrict email duplication at all, there are perfectly legitimate reasons why two accounts could have the same address. Email addresses are private data; they can't be shown by the software except to CheckUsers and Oversighters. Implementing an admin interface for "this person wants to set the email address on this account to be the same as the email address on that account" doesn't achieve anything except to irritate legitimate editors. Much better to allow duplicate email addresses but give CUs the ability to look for them, and thus wrap up whole farms of naive socks in one go. Happy‑melon 13:08, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It won't take long for word to get out, though. The naive socks are probably the least of our worries. Tisane (talk) 13:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It certainly won't take long for the 'pro' sockmasters to start using separate email accounts, but that's expected. The point is that you've achieved the same effect (sockmasters have to go to the trouble of setting up many email accounts) without inconveniencing legitimate editors. If you force email accounts to be unique, you a) lose the opportunity to catch naive sockmasters easily, b) don't force experienced sockmasters to do anything they wouldn't have done anyway, and c) needlessly annoy legitimate editors. Happy‑melon 13:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) Most other sites have no problem during account registration with checking for other usernames with the same email address. And anonymity is maintained since it is the software that does the checking.

There aren't that many people legitimately using the same email address for multiple accounts. So I don't see it as a big inconvenience. And it is faster to check ahead preventively than to check afterward. And it is less work for CheckUsers. Inconvenience overall is less. CheckUsers will have less work to do. And naive socks can cause a lot of damage and irritation in a short time. They can cause other editors to stop editing pages they camp in. So cut them off quick and early before they have a chance to inconvenience honest editors. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:13, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think this is a bad idea because the bad would outweigh the good. The good is that it would make a little bit more trouble for sockmasters (but really, changing IP's to evade checkusers is a lot harder than changing email addresses), the bad is the trouble that it would cause the 99% of users that are legitimate. Also that many legitimate users would create throwaway accounts that they would never intend to use, because they would not want WP email coming to their main email box, and then people would email these people and they would never see the emails. —Soap— 16:55, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Most people use watchlists not email. Changing IPs is not necessary currently to evade CheckUsers. CheckUsers are too busy to check all suspected sockpuppets. It is difficult and time-consuming to go through the process. It is no real trouble for users to give an email address. There are no lack of comments at blogs and elsewhere. Most use their verified email address while filling out the form for a username. Email address is kept private. Wikipedia is behind on this one. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your comments on the CheckUser tool and sockpuppet investigations are not correct. Editing from multiple accounts on the same IP will result in a sockmaster being caught by a CU very easily; it is in fact essential to vary your IP to evade a casual Checkuser. CheckUsers are indeed very busy and are not involved with all SPIs, but their assistance is invaluable in many investigations, and any extra tool for them is invaluable. Happy‑melon 18:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that evading Checkuser requires varying your IP. But you misunderstood me. Most sockpuppets are never investigated by Checkuser. New sockpuppets are constantly being created.
So you are for requiring a verified email address for all new usernames, but without restricting the number of usernames per email address? I could go for that as a start. Especially if Checkuser does frequent sweeps. But won't that overwhelm Checkuser with having to question all these users about why they have more than one username? --Timeshifter (talk) 05:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

After reading all of the above arguments I still fail to see why one should believe the proposal would slow down sockmasters to any noticeable extent. It's not like creating new e-mail accounts was hard and troublesome enough to stop someone willing to cause disruption. Furthermore, webmail providers like Yahoo allow you to create an alias mail address associated to your existing account, meaning it wouldn't take more than a couple seconds for someone to set up a throwaway - but perfectly valid - address. As far as I'm aware of mail confirmations are generally used to stop robot spammers, and not real persons creating alternate accounts. I stand by Soap's position - there would be no significant benefits to justify the nuisances created. --Duplode (talk) 18:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yahoo Mail only allows alias email accounts if you have the paid Yahoo Mail. Very few people have that. From Yahoo Mail options for my account: "Disposable Addresses: Disposable email addresses help guard your primary address against spam. Upgrade to Mail Plus to get this feature."
Comment. Most people don't want to create another email account. Requiring a separate verified email address per username would probably stop about 90% of new sockpuppet creation. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:54, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments:
  • As an user of free Yahoo Mail which does actually have an alias mail address I can ensure you that even without a paid plan you can have one (and exactly one) alternate address - which is a different thing from their disposable addresses. Also, once created the alias can be changed at will, so badfaithuser_AT_yahoo.com can easily create a sockpuppet1_AT_yahoo.com alias, register in Wikipedia using this address and then just as easily change the alias to sockpuppet2_AT_yahoo.com, rinse and repeat. I'm talking about Yahoo Mail because I do know the procedures, but I guess there should be similarly easy ways of dealing with the restriction for people using other mail providers.
  • Why "most people" wouldn't want to create another email account? In other words, is there any reason not to believe this additional restriction would make bad-faith sockmasters instantly change their minds and want to create other email accounts?
  • Any particular reason for using boldface in your comment?
--Duplode (talk) 17:50, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Emphasis is a study aid, and helps focus. I only see one Yahoo email address allowed. What tab (or page) in options, profile, account info, etc. are you referring to in Yahoo Mail? I mainly use Gmail, so I may be missing out on how to create another Yahoo Mail address.
On the Yahoo account info page ("your account information") I see a place for an alternate email address so that Yahoo can contact me. That is common with most web-based email, and is mainly for retrieving lost passwords. There is only one spot for a Yahoo Mail address. It is labeled "Yahoo! Email". The other spots are labeled "Email 1", "Email 2", etc..
The "Add Email" button allows one to create more and more spots for entering more of those alternate email addresses. It does not create email addresses. If I am having all this difficulty creating another Yahoo Mail address with the same password, then so will many others (such as many sockmaster wannabes).
Most naive sockmasters aren't going to go to a lot of trouble to create a sockpuppet. In my experience most sockmasters are not very experienced editors, and are looking for a shortcut to get their way in editing conflicts. If they had more patience they wouldn't be bothering with sockpuppets. Since they don't have a lot of patience they are more easily discouraged by having to provide a verified email address for each Wikipedia username.
Dedicated sockmasters are another matter. One problem at a time. Any ideas? --Timeshifter (talk) 19:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm still not clear why there is this perception that sockmasters will have any difficulty at all creating throwaway email accounts (gmail has an unlimited number, as far as I can tell). A lot of them already use throwaway email accounts, so this would have a negligible effect on them. Meanwhile, the more steps involved in registering an account, the less likely someone is to do it. We do not under any circumstances want to dissuade participation in this site; we are still the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and that is a feature, not a bug. And all of my alternate accounts (they're listed on my userpage, I forget them all) go to the same email address; in fact, I think that is pretty standard for most people with acknowledged alternate accounts. Risker (talk) 19:39, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do not see a way in Gmail to create additional gmail addresses for the same account. I just checked the settings.
Anyone can edit Wikipedia, and will be able to with a verified email address. Most people do not need multiple Wikipedia usernames. For the rest of your questions please see my previous replies, and try to understand them. Additional ideas and variations welcome. Please see the note at the top of the page. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion for all the people worried about legit alternate accounts: What about if, you didn't have to create a new email if you went to special:CreateAccount while logged in? That produces a clear entry in the logs that this person created these accounts. Ergo, useful for us to confirm alts, very unhelpful for sockmasters. {{Sonia|talk|simple}} 08:39, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a good idea. No need to contact an admin first in order to use the same email address for multiple Wikipedia usernames. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:22, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dedicated sockmasters

See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues#Jerusalem Post. Israeli-Palestinian conflict rages on Wikipedia. It's about a front-page Jerusalem Post story mentioned in the May 17, 2010 Signpost in the "Briefly" section. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2010-05-17/In the news.

A comment points to Wikipedia:Long-term abuse which is a page that includes many dedicated sockmasters, vandals, etc.. One in particular: Wikipedia:Long term abuse#Runtshit. See page 2 (and following pages) of Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Runtshit. Named sockpuppets begin on page 2 of the category. Over 800 named sockpuppets and over 200 IPs.

Having to provide a verified email address for every separate username would slow down this sockmaster, and others. Having to create 800 email accounts would take a few minutes for each one. All those hours and days creating email accounts is less time distorting articles, discouraging other editors, and hurting NPOV. And less time spent by Checkusers. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:22, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I bagged and tagged my first sockmaster today. :)
See: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Harmonia1. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Time saved wasted on sockpuppets

After spending hours researching just one small-time sockmaster, and following through on it at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Harmonia1/Archive, I see that anything that prevents even a small percentage of sockpuppets saves a lot of time.

Each one of those 4 sockpuppets of Harmonia1 had to be investigated. If Harmonia1 had to have created 4 email accounts, he would have been less inspired to create them all. He may have created only 1 sockpuppet. He also fabricated stories for all of them. That all takes time.

So why not make it more difficult and timeconsuming to create sockpuppets? Why do editors have to suffer? Make the sockmaster have to waste time.

In the last few months I have seen sockpuppet problems in multiple areas I work on. In various topic areas. Why are we tolerating more sockpuppets? Wikipedia quality is more important than their games. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Although I feel strongly about reducing sockpuppetry, I do not as a rule give out personal information online, and I would have to oppose this proposal because of concerns over two groups of users who would be excluded if this proposal takes effect. The two groups would be those who do not desire to give out personal information online, and those who do not have an email address. I feel a better way of reducing sock puppetry would be to increase the use of checkuser. Immunize (talk) 13:07, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are people online without email addresses?! Just kidding. I agree with you about increasing the use of CheckUser. We need more Checkuser admins. I don't know why its use is made so difficult. As far as I know it does not pull up personal info. I thought it just pulled up IP numbers.
Providing an email address does not necessarily provide personal info online. My Wikipedia email address provides no info about me. The name is an alias, and the street address and city are not mine. My email address would have to be followed back to my internet provider, and they would have to provide their IP logs attached to their internet accounts. They usually don't give them out except to law enforcement. Law enforcement can follow the Wikipedia IP logs back the same way to the internet providers, and so providing an alias email address is not a problem to users.
As for the few Wikipedia editors without an email address we could provide a link to info about alias email accounts, and their ease of use. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The considerations about giving out a mail address in registration not being a big deal are certainly correct, but they are only sound natural to us, experienced Internet users. For the average citizen that fact would not be obvious at all, and so it is very likely that many people would think twice before registering. --Duplode (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Re. Timeshifter: The checkuser tool pulls up (among other things) a user's IP address; that is their location and their ISP. As such, it provides very personal information about a user, and could potentially be used to facilitate unwanted contact with a user in real life. Per WMF's privacy policy and their policy on checkusers, we need to be very careful about a) who is given the checkuser tool, and b) how it is used. On the note of compulsory registration (with a verified e-mail) I'm pretty sure that this idea has been turned down before, as it is deemed to go against the spirit of an open wiki, furthermore to this, it's very much an indiscriminate slash and burn method to solving the problem of sockpuppetry (it would effect legitimate users as well as illegitimate ones), and it also wouldn't make it that much harder to sock. Kind regards, SpitfireTally-ho! 18:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Duplode and Spitfire. People comment on blogs all the time. Most blogs I have seen require registration with a verified email address nowadays. I sometimes think many Wikipedia users don't get out enough. :) Out of Wikipedia that is. Email addresses are not seen in most blog comments. They are kept private. If people are worried about admins seeing email addresses, then email addresses can be kept encrypted except to checkusers.
There can be periodic searches for accounts with duplicate email addresses by the Mediawiki software also, as initiated by checkusers. If we allow people to use the same email address for more than one username, then that would be a way to catch some of the sockmasters.
I agree that we should be careful with who gets Checkuser access. I am just repeating what others have said, and echoing the thought that we need more people with that access. All vetted thoroughly. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:20, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The point we're making is not what you seem to think it is: "you shouldn't make people have to register with a verified e-mail to edit because that would reveal their email address to the public". The point we're making is: you shouldn't make people have to register with a verified e-mail to edit because it goes against the idea of an open wiki and it is a hassle. It would also have the opposite to the intended effect: if I didn't have an account and I was reading an article and I noticed a spelling error, I wouldn't go to all the hassle of making an account and verifying an email address just to fix that error, however, if I was a long term sockpuppeteer who got a kick out of disrupting wikipedia, I see no reason why I wouldn't go to a few extra lengths to continue my disruption. As I have said this idea has been rejected before. You may also want to look over Wikipedia:PEREN#Prohibit anonymous users from editing (which also includes some arguments I haven't mentioned). In my honest opinion, this idea (if implemented) would probably not have the intended effect, and would have some nasty secondary effects. Although I understand the reasoning behind what you;re trying to put across, I don't think it'll be very effective in practice. Regards, SpitfireTally-ho! 20:59, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't a hassle to provide a verified email address when registering one user name. It is common all over. Almost everybody has an email address. Many sockpuppet masters would not go to the trouble of creating new email accounts. A percentage would go through the process. This has not been rejected before as far as I know. This isn't a vote anyway. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Never said it was a vote, the idea lab is for receiving feedback on ideas before putting them forward, to help perfect them. However, normally ideas listed at Wikipedia:PEREN are very unlikely to be approved. Kindest regards, SpitfireTally-ho! 22:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is not listed there as far as I have heard. Idea lab is for creativity and feedback that expands further on things, and not just repetitive negativity as often occurs at VP-Proposals --Timeshifter (talk) 04:05, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just because it's common doesn't mean it's "not a hassle"; indeed it unquestionably is a hassle. You can argue that the extra hurdle is justified, but to claim it doesn't exist is disingenuous. It's certainly the case that implementing compulsory email verification would deter a fraction of sockpuppeteers, especially if we built email-matching into CheckUser. It would also definitely deter a fraction of legitimate users. Which group is larger, and which more valuable, are legitimate questions. But it's simply not realistic to argue that one such group simply doesn't exist. Happy‑melon 22:46, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It unquestionably is not a hassle for me to put in an existing email address in a registration form. Several keystrokes are not a hassle. Cost-benefit analysis favors requiring a verified email address. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:09, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How'd you run that analysis, BTW? "I don't mind spending three minutes verifying an e-mail address (theoretically, because I've already got an account, so this new process won't apply to me); therefore, the entire world thinks this is the best use of their time"?
It's not merely a question of typing in an e-mail address. For this to work, the steps are:
  1. Have (or create) an e-mail account (that you don't mind using for this purpose)
  2. Create a Wikipedia account
  3. Give Wikipedia your e-mail address
  4. Wait for Wikipedia to send you an e-mail message
  5. Log into your e-mail account to find the message
  6. Read the message to figure out what you need to do (click a link in the message? copy and paste a verification code into a form?)
  7. Follow the directions in the message (hope that it works, or wonder what to do if it doesn't.)
I can type an e-mail address in two seconds, but "put in an existing email address" is a noticeably incomplete description of the process. Since the vast majority of new editors are not sockmasters, it looks to me that the costs will be many minutes of legitimate users—not to mention loss of users that refuse to be hassled with this—to prevent each sock account registration. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have had discussions with you, WhatamIdoing, on other talk pages, and I usually find it to be a waste of time. Please see my previous replies. I summarize: Enter existing email address. Receive confirmation email. Click confirmation link. The tiny minority of people who don't get it are not that important. Sockpuppets are important. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But the "tiny minory of people" who don't get it is likely still larger then the number of sockpuppets being deterred by this. Personally I don't think any sockmaster will be deterred by this. This proposal will only make it a bit harder to create an account. Garion96 (talk) 15:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sockpuppets dumb down Wikipedia, and waste many editors' time. Also, do we really need the couple dozen people who can't figure out a confirmation link for verification? Cost-benefit analysis is the way here. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:15, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we do need them. They are not too dumb to figure out a confirmation link, but for some it is just too much hassle. We shouldn't make it harder to create an account. And yes, cost-benefit analysis is indeed the way here. The cost is making it harder to create an account while the benefit is non-existent since I don't think any sockmaster will be deterred by this. Garion96 (talk) 16:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Those few lazy people can keep on IP editing. The benefit is great even if only a few dozen or a few hundred of the 800 sockpuppets mentioned previously for one sockmaster are prevented. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:46, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you are asking me to began IP editing and lose access to Twinkle, HotCat, Huggle, Friendly, Rollback, hope of adminship, a watchlist and a userpage? Immunize (talk) 14:43, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Use an email account with an alias. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:35, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Although I am aware that oppose and support statements are not welcomed at this village pump, I have to at least suggest that this would decrease the number of both sockpuppets and productive editors. I feel that there is a certain appeal of wikipedia in that "you do not need to give out any personal information, not even an email address". If this passes, that will be lost, and I fear a drop in the number of new contributors. Immunize (talk) 14:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On the registration page suggest people use an alias name and email account. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:35, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sockpuppet limitation summary

To summarize various ideas. The registration form would ask for an email address. "Alias email addresses are fine." The link would be to a FAQ that would point out that one can maintain total anonymity this way. Even admins would not know the real name of the user. "The same email address can be used for multiple user names."

Multiple usernames could be listed at "Other usernames". That link would be in the sidebar of every user page. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with this suggestion. Anyone can still edit, they can edit as an IP without any registration at all, they can register with an email which remains hidden to all but C/U etc and lets face it an email addy isn't exactly personal information in the sense that we normally mean it. They can even use the same email for multiple accounts. If we can slow down sock creation its a win. Unomi (talk) 00:22, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, checkuser (C/U) would see the email address. For an alias email account if necessary for some editors (like me) who are anonymous. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:39, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Accounting for inflation in currencies

The manual of style does not explain how to account for inflation when adding currency denominations to articles. As such, I would suggest that each currency template also include an inflation calculator such as {{US$}}. Anyone have any thoughts?Smallman12q (talk) 20:51, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That editors should follow the sources instead of doing their own calculations, especially if long time periods, obsolete currencies, or subject-specific issues are involved. A pound of silver is still a pound of silver, but that lump of silver buys both more food and less cooking than it did five hundred years ago. Most editors won't know which price index is appropriate. You are best off following your sources rather than applying a blanket inflation rate to everything. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WhatAm makes good sense... Carrite (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Change of the HTML-page-title from vector.js ?

Resolved

On Special:Preferences#prefsection-1 (Tab: Appearance) I use the Vector skin.

  • I always open multiple tabs when browsing the web. (And only a tiny part of each HTML-page-title is shown by the web browsers' tab-titles).
  • I use the Wikipedias of various languageges. Some of them have the exact same standard ending on their HTML-page-titles, namely: "- Wikipedia". (Which sometimes makes it a bit cumbersome to keep the various language-versions apart, when I save Wikipedia articles to disk for offline reading).

It would be a gret help if I could:

  1. Automatically shorten the first part of the HTML-page-title on all wikipedia titles starting with: "Wikipedia:<The rest of the title>" into: "W:<The rest of the title>" and from: "Help:<The rest of the title>" into: "H:<The rest of the title>", and so on.
    This would make the tabs in the browser more navigable.
  2. Automatically change the ending of the HTML-page-title, on all wikipedia pages, from: "<The beginning of the title> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" into: "<The beginning of the title> - Wikipedia,EN".
    Of course, for instance on the swedish (sv.wikipedia.org) I will want to change the ending from: "- Wikipedia" into: "- Wikipedia,SV", and accordingly for other languages.
    This would automatically make the articles saved to my harddisk more navigable, because the browser's proposed save file name is based on the HTML-page-title.
(In case you who read this, happen to only use English Wikipedia, I had better mention that each language Wikipedia has its own set of preferences setings, so even if one uses the same username everywhere, the different behaviour for the various language editions clearly will not be anyway difficult to set up).

Now I wonder:

  • Can these things be done from a line of javascript code in the file: [[User:<username>/vector.js]]?
  • And, if so, :-P would anyone be so kind as to please tell me what to write?

P.S. I post this question here at the "Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)" rather than at the "Wikipedia:Help_desk" because I also see this as a potentially good idea for something to include in Wikipedia preferences, that would be helpful to many users. What do you think?
--Seren-dipper (talk) 05:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The script you describe should be easy to write; I can do it now. PleaseStand (talk) 19:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Line to add to Special:MyPage/skin.js on this wiki (not on sv): 
importScript("User:PleaseStand/short-title.js");
It will substitute "WP:" for "Wikipedia", "WT:" for "Wikipedia talk", and "Wikipedia,EN/SV/etc." for "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia", but currently nothing else. PleaseStand (talk) 21:57, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To add to sv and other Wikipedias you visit: 
importScriptURI("http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:PleaseStand/short-title.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript");
PleaseStand (talk) 22:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect! Thank you!!!  :-)
--Seren-dipper (talk) 03:59, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can I cite information in an article from a person that article directly pertains to?

Title says it all. As it happens, the lead singer of Blessid Union of Souls has told me some information about the history of the band. Is there a way to cite our discussion itself as a legitimate source? As a side note, something like this has happened with the articles for xkcd (the creator stated that an image is warranted) and Homer Simpson (someone related to the creation of the character, I don't remember, stated that the article is accurate and approved it). Tezero (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. Wikipedia requires that it be possible to verify all material in a published source, and personal communications are not published. See the canonical list of invalid proofs, specifically under "I saw Karp in the elevator, and he said..." WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oof. I just realized while I was walking the dog that I may not have been clear about the issue. The singer has a Wikipedia account, and our discussion was on a talk page here; I could provide a link to it if needed. Tezero (talk) 22:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When a user hovers their mouse on a wiki link, the first 255 or so characters of the link's summary paragraph can display in a small box. The box disappears when the mouse is removed from the link. It would then be easier to read an article without following every wiki link that one is unsure of.--Brylie (talk) 06:19, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't that what Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups is for? Tisane (talk) 06:23, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The idea isn't that bad in principle, but that'd cost over two hundred more bytes per link, which for readers with slow connections would be a Bad Thing. A. di M. (talk) 17:29, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why does Wikimedia need more than one MediaWiki installation?

In the course of trying to fix bug 3525 (and thereby help implement Wikipedia:Integrated watchlists), I've been trying to set up a small wiki farm, and realizing what a pain in the neck it is. And it occurred to me (not for the first time), why does Wikimedia need more than one wiki?

Why not design MediaWiki with a field in the page table designating language? Then the user, rather than going to the French Wikipedia, or the English Wikipedia, or whatever, could just switch between French mode, English mode, etc. It could be set up so that if you click on, say, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fromage, it will map that to some parameter to Index.php telling MediaWiki to show you the English version. That could help handle name collisions between, for instance, en:fromage and fr:fromage. Interwiki prefixes could also be mapped to the appropriate parameterized url.

Meta wiki does not need to be its own wiki. It could just be a namespace. Likewise, we don't really need Wiktionary, Wikisource, Wikiquote or Wikiversity. We could just have articles named, for instance, List of definitions of cheese, Text of Romeo and Juliet, List of quotes related to Adolf Hitler or Instructions on cooking pasta. If we get rid of all those other wikis, then we can merge Wikimedia Commons into the unified wiki too. This would, of course, involve changes to WP:NOT since it would not be solely an encyclopedia anymore, but a comprehensive resource on everything that's notable.

RecentChanges, watchlists, etc. could be set up to optionally filter by language. But they could also be integrated, if the user wished. The issue of interwiki page existence detection (or lack thereof) would also be addressed by this (see bug 11).

I'm not sure which is more awkward — our current approach or this one. Either way, some coding will be needed to manage in a more unified way the content that is spread across Wikimedia's several hundred wikis. While you ponder this, I'm going to go back to trying to figure out MediaWiki.org's instructions on wiki farms, Central Auth, and related configuration settings. Tisane (talk) 12:11, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This user supports global, cross-wiki, integrated watchlists.
More discussions:
Strongly support the concept of unification of infrastructure (that is, the MediaWiki installation), but very strongly oppose the actual incorporation of individual projects within the Wikipedia umbrella, as it couldn't possibly work from an editorial point of view. If the MediaWiki installations get merged someday there should be different namespaces for the sister projects, and editorial and behavioural policies and guidelines should be kept separate for each of these namespaces. --Duplode (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, okay. It's probably overreaching to support unification of projects/policy/adminship/etc. So I suppose a bug should be submitted to Bugzilla suggesting that a new division be created that basically fits somewhere in between different namespaces and entirely separate MediaWiki installations? I suppose the most plausible way this could be implemented would be as an extension. Tisane (talk) 20:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just a technical note. If you're starting a wiki farm from scratch, you don't need CentralAuth. CentralAuth was basically designed for Wikimedia. If you're starting from scratch, there are easier options. Mr.Z-man 01:50, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the tip; I may well use that in the next wiki farm I create. The difficulty in getting CentralAuth to work properly, and the fact that most wiki farms don't need CentralAuth, probably accounts for a big part of the reason why no one has yet created the CentralAuth enhancement needed to fix bug 3525. I've begun some preliminary work trying to gain an understanding of CentralAuth (and of what I need to do to get it to work properly). mw:Extension:IntegratedWatchlists. CentralAuth is undoubtedly the hardest extension to properly configure that I've ever encountered. Brion was not exaggerating when he called it "horrible and scary." Tisane (talk) 07:25, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) Tisane pointed this out to me:

Proposed Move Of WP:Ownership of articles To WP:Ownership

There is a proposal to move WP:Ownership of articles To WP:Ownership at Wikipedia_talk:Ownership_of_articles#Move.3F.174.3.121.27 (talk) 02:43, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stronger reminder that you are seeing a preview

Currently, when one previews an edit, one sees the following reminder in bright red text at the top of the preview page:

"Remember that this is only a preview; your changes have not yet been saved!"

(Thank you, warning. On several occasions, you have prevented me from failing to save an edit.)

Unfortunately, I am sometimes absent-minded, so that occasionally, during a complex series of edits and previews and checking of links, after I've scrolled far down into a preview, I can forget having seen the warning.

My idea, then, is to strengthen the warning just a bit by making the whole preview page look slightly different from an ordinary encyclopedia page. (This is similar to some reminder techniques I use in database GUI design.) Thinking about the existing red warning message, I am imagining something pink or red that would be visible in any part of the preview page. Here are two possible techniques:

1) Add a thin red vertical line to the left edge of the preview page.

2) Make the entire background of the preview page pale pink.

Other kinds of visible reminders are possible, and might even be more practical to implement -- I don't know. The two key points are that the different appearance of the page should be rather noticeable, and that the difference should be visible from any scroll position.

Thanks for listening, and I'd really welcome any comments on this. Dratman (talk) 05:14, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I remember the confusion I has as a newbie. Good idea. I l[ke technique #2 because it is more noticeable, but the ultimate decision has to be the programmers. Rebele | Talk The only way to win the game is to not play the game. 06:38, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to add my support for this. It's just good UI design, especially option 2. One caveat is that it would be necessary for the colour to be modifiable using vector.css or similar for accessability reasons (some people need to use particular coloured backgrounds due to visual problems). For the same reasons it would have to play nicely with custom background colours people may have set up in their browsers. Finally just to say that if this doesn't gain support as a default I imagine it should be possible to implement it as a UI gadget in preferences. Equisetum (talk) 12:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I like this idea, especially a pale color (and as suggested, customizable). I was tripped up by this just yesterday, wondering why I had an error in a page that I was sure I had addressed, then to look at the other screen and realize it was still open, not yet saved.--SPhilbrickT 15:47, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it would be good if there was a more in-your-face reminder you're still on a preview - your edits are not saved yet. Incidentally, this is extremely easy to achieve with a snippet of custom CSS. I have made the warning at the top of the page larger, with a thick red border, and the actual page with a pale background colour as suggested. Very clear, no missing that. Superp (talk) 22:55, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A more comprehensive solution would be to auto-save article drafts similarly to what Gmail does; this would also protect against loss of unsaved revisions from power failures, computer crashes, and such. Tisane (talk) 23:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Me, I don't have a need for that. Superp (talk) 08:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Watchlist Ideas

Recently I was observing a several month edit war at an article, and it occurred to me especially on things like Move proposals being able to Observe the individual sections of the page would be highly useful. For example in My Raw Watchlist instead of having Talk:Neotribalism in there simply to be able to observe Talk:Neotribalism#Tribal society?. this would allow user to monitor one section rather than the whole page. Another though i have been thinking about is being able to maintain more than one watchlist in single account like being able name one watchlist "Religion" and another "News orgs" so that my entire page does not end up being eaten up by a single Edit war... currently i operate a secondary account just to observe an edit wars

Any throughts? Weaponbb7 (talk) 12:31, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See the last sentence of MediaWiki#Database. Tisane (talk) 23:15, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the info, Tisane. I guess that is one of the reasons talk page section watchlisting hasn't been implemented also. "Some software enhancement proposals, such as a proposal to allow sections of articles to be watched via watchlist, have been rejected because the necessary schema changes would have required excessive Wikipedia downtime."
I don't think people would mind much if Wikipedia were down for a day if it allowed implementation of article and talk section watchlisting. Maybe incorporate integrated watchlists, too. Those 3 watchlist improvements have been requested by many people. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:08, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia images.

Please can you propose a way to download wikipedia images?. Wikix is not downloading any images. Rishikeshan (talk) 04:32, 6 June 2010 (UTC)rishikeshan[reply]


In detail:

Wikix generated a sh. curl try to get http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Air\ composition\ pie\ chart.JPG in that sh. curl shows error 400 for all files. All files had /0/00/ prefix. I commented the md5() functions because g++ shows linker error: undefined reference to MD5. What have to be replaced in /0/00/? If you cannot solve the problem, Please propose another way to download wikipedia and commons images. Please plan to dump images again. We can satisfy if you at least dump images once or twice a year. All files had same problem. Only image00 is written and others had only env. variables.

Rishikeshan (talk) 04:32, 6 June 2010 (UTC)rishikeshan[reply]

m:User-Agent policy PleaseStand (talk) 17:50, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is there anything preventing dumps of the images from being done, by the way? It would be a good step forward for openness, and probably more efficient than the other methods of obtaining images (e.g. scraping). Tisane (talk) 18:24, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Checkusers/oversighters have too much power?

The Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight/May 2010 election only resulted in one candidate reaching the 70% threshold required to be elected. Could it be that the community essentially voted none of the above for a lot of the open slots because they view hardly anyone as being trustworthy enough to hold that much power? I wonder if there is a way to reduce their power without making the process too bureaucratic. The problem is that these functions, by their nature, don't lend themselves to much community oversight, so it's hard to even know whether the officeholders are doing a good job.

If there were a few people who could be trusted, they could be put in charge of hiring and firing assistants who would help with these tasks. I guess the proposals to put the ArbCom in charge of hiring/firing checkusers and oversighters are along those lines. Which raises the question, Can ArbCom be trusted? I was going to put forth ideas, but then realized I really have more questions than answers on this issue, and every idea I've thought of for fixing the process has its own fatal flaw. E.g., if you require the assent of more than one checkuser or oversighter in order to make a decision, then a cabal/voting bloc/whatever of mutually-supporting officeholders can still arise to defeat such a safety mechanism. Tisane (talk) 14:43, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What power do Checkusers have? Maybe we need to encourage people to use pen-names when creating email addresses for use with Wikipedia accounts. Then we could give all arbitrators checkuser rights. If an arbitrator can't be trusted with checkuser access, then they shouldn't be arbitrators. We should require people to use a fake name and alias email address for Wikipedia user accounts. That would solve many problems. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it's a bad practice to use one's real name. Actually, I think it's better to give out as little personal information as possible. If you say that you have a certain political or religious leaning, for instance, then people may scrutinize your edits more for bias. Tisane (talk) 20:20, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I try not to give out personal info that is too specific to me. But I give out some of my political and spiritual leanings on my user and talk pages. It helps people understand where I am coming from, and that I am conscious of some of my POVs.
I usually say something concerning unbalanced POVs (even ones I agree with) when it is brought up concerning parts of articles I have worked on. I try to be intellectually honest and fair. I don't just do this out of charity. I want my edits to be treated the same way by others.
When I point out some unbalanced POV that an editor has inserted, I want them to be intellectually honest too. Fair is fair. It is common-sense fair play. When I say "Unbalanced POV" I am referring to a POV being expressed in an article without the balance of other POVs. Wikipedia maintains a neutral point of view in the narrative voice of the article by expressing the various POVs in the form of X says Y.
So people don't need to hide their views. They just need to balance them in articles. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:00, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New approach to vandalism?

This has probably already been mentioned before but what do people think about utilising principles of deviance and social psychology in countering vandalism on Wikipedia?

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