Talk:Park51

"Park51" vs "Cordoba House"

http://www.park51.org/

What's the relationship? Is Cordoba House simply part of Park51? I'm guessing Park51 is the building, which contains a mosque, Cordoba House. —Ashley Y 06:01, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it sounds like Park 51 is the building and community center. "Cordoba House will be a center for interfaith dialogue and engagement within Park51's broad range of programs and activities." http://www.park51.org/cordoba.htm Fletcher (talk) 13:37, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

They're all the same ... the rename appears to be a reaction to the negative feedback on the initial name, with its connotations of Islamic conquest of non-Islamic territory.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

See http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/07/ground_zero_mosque_gets_lets_m.html .--Epeefleche (talk) 05:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Something You should know: in the year 1011 there was a massacre ("pogrom") of jews in Cordoba when muslims killed nearly all jewish families living there. Location: Ground Zero 10 years after 09/11, Name: Cordoba Ho 1000 years after the pogrom. Nothing more to say then pure muslim provocation! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.81.152.101 (talk) 13:17, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

OK but thats only one instance in the history of Cordoba. there were only 2 pogroms of Jews carried out by Muslims on in granada in 1066 and Cordoba in 1011 what can't be denied is over 700 years of Islamic rule in Cordoba, including the pogroms, was a lot fairer on the Jewish community of Al-andalus than the ghettoisation and mass murder in the rest of Europe at the time or the Spanish Reconquista. Still Park51 and Cordoba House are both what are being debated about nationally so maybe its best having both names up. Ground Zero Mosque is just a propaganda term in my opinion --Omar418 (talk) 00:46, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Muslims act on symbolism. The original Cordoba mosque was built on the ashes of a Christian church and 1148, the Almohades conquered Cordoba, which ended all delusions of "el Andaluz". http://www.andalucia-andalusia.com/Historic-Cordoba.html -- Skowronek The Lark (talk) 15:12, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

"Construction is due to begin on September 11, 2011"??

The first paragraph contains the statement "Construction is due to begin on September 11, 2011", or ten years to the day after the attacks. Yes, it is contained in the referenced Daily Mail article from last May, but even so this seems extremely provocative, and unlikely given that the builders want to avoid controversy when possible. There seems to be no other source for this.

I looked elsewhere, and on several extremely anti-Cordoba page found a statement that the complex was due to OPEN on 9/1/2011. Given that, to me this sounds like a canard spread by the anti-Cordoba crowd in order to inflame opposition.

Can this be confirmed elsewhere, especially from a neutral or pro-Cordoba source? -- Dan Griscom (talk) 19:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

It is sourced to an RS. That is our standard. You have to leave your POV at the door, and your guesswork at the door. Stick to what the RSs say. The goal is verifiability. Whatever you personally view as unlikely, or provocative, or what is in non-RSs is irrelevant. Tx, though. I see you are a new editor. Feel free to pose any questions. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

This isn't my POV, this is my rationality. We now have two "RS"s, one of which states that groundbreaking will start in "late 2010", while the other states that construction will start on "Sept 11, 2011". Is this contradiction permitted because both statements appear in newspapers? And why is the former date so loose, while the latter is so precise? The answer can only be that the latter was chosen by someone who wanted to highlight any possible connection with 9/11.

This article involves a controversial topic, where the facts are in dispute, especially as regards details linking it to 9/11. Given this, and given that there are known incorrect (and inflammatory) statements in newspapers linking points in the construction schedule to 9/11 anniversaries, don't you think that some level of skepticism is warranted? -- Dan Griscom (talk) 04:04, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, groundbreaking precedes construction. Also, your "the only answer" is certainly not the only answer. That is your POV. Another answer might be that that is in fact the intended date.--Epeefleche (talk) 13:31, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say that the date must have been made up by anti-Cordoba agitators. I said that the date must have been chosen for its 9/11 significance. By whom is an open question, but we can (and must) consider the possibilities when we are trying to accumulate an encyclopedia of facts rather than rumors.

If you do a bit of looking, you can find an article titled Why is Fox pushing a falsehood to fuel outrage over NYC Muslim community center? by Media Matters for America, which talks about Fox News repeatedly and falsely citing September 11, 2011 as the opening date for the center. (This includes, by the way, this NY Post article. Should this be added to the Wikipedia article as another fact?) The Media Matters article includes a clear statement from a leader of one of the organizations driving the project that the date is "absolutely false", and "the timeline has yet to be determined".

So, now, let's consider what we know. First, the Cordoba House organization is clearly cognizant of possible 9/11 links to their project, and is working hard to appear sensitive to the concerns of those who remember 9/11. Second, a number of statements in the media have linked various construction milestones with various 9/11 anniversaries. We cannot and should not put all of these contradictory dates into the article, so we need to think about what the truth is. (Are you with me so far?)

I see two explanations. The first is is that the Cordoba House organization has a secret construction schedule that deliberately includes one or more important milestones on 9/11 anniversaries. They must be keeping the schedule secret, otherwise they wouldn't be able to deny it. The connections must be deliberate, since they are aware of and sensitive to 9/11 links, and it would be trivial to move the milestones a week forwards or back to avoid the connections. This means that they are planning to trample all over 9/11 sensitivities once the project is far enough along that it can't be stopped. But there's a big problem with this: if it is true, then those publishing these connections have stumbled on a major scoop that if publicized would garner an enormous amount of attention. But they don't publicize it. (Why?)

The second explanation is that the construction schedule is indeed still being determined, which makes sense since only recently has the process surmounted a significant obstacle. This "fact" is in truth a rumor that was started by someone in the anti-Cordoba crowd. Someone put it in a blog, and then it got copied into the tabloid newspapers. The motivation is clear: it inflames anti-Cordoba sentiment, and sells papers. Now the "fact" has been copied into Wikipedia.

Occam's razor: we must choose the explanation that requires the fewest new assumptions, which is clearly the second.

Now, you may not think that I've proved that this "fact" is false. You must agree, however, that I have raised serious and legitimate concerns, and that it is very possible, if not likely, that it is false. Given that, we must remove it from the article. -- Dan Griscom (talk) 14:49, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

"working hard to appear sensitive to the concerns of those who remember 9/11" Pffffft!! This is all about using controversy to raise money from donors in the Gulf Arab states. According to Cordoba House's 2008 tax return, they had only $18,000 in the bank at that time. Construction costs are estimated at $110 million. So they are counting on rich Muslims overseas to get excited about the controversy and pony up a whole lot of cash. Developer El-Gamal was working as a waiter as recently as 2002. Do you think Rauf is worried about the controversy, busy trying settle things down? Of course not! He's on a fund raising trip to the Gulf, paid for with $16,000 from the U.S. State Department.[1] Kauffner (talk) 08:20, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

• I'm pressed for time as I have to sign off in a moment, so haven't read all the above. But enough to point out yet again, what perhaps I did not say sufficiently clearly. 1) Our job is verifiability, not truth. If the RS says it (as is the case here) we reflect it. 2) Your observation that the date must have been chosen for its 9/11 significance is your POV/OR, and quite possibly true. But no -- if that is the date reported in the RS, it certainly isn't our job to treat it as a rumor. There is nothing to suggest that the developer didn't pick that date for its 9/11 significance. The "9/11 significance" argument does not, as you suggest, lead to the conclusion that it is a rumor, or not true, by any stretch of the imagination. Frankly, you're straying from what is clearly the wp approach, to wit -- stick to the RSs, reflect them, and avoid OR and POV.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:07, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

OK: I've taken my best shot, and integrated all of the various 9/11-linked construction dates into the article. Note that I followed the verifiability dictum, in particular 'Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text: "John Smith argues that X, while Paul Jones maintains that Y," followed by an inline citation.' -- Dan Griscom (talk) 02:31, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The article currently contains the following links:

• http://beta.wnyc.org/blogs/azi-paybarah/2010/aug/04/paladino-raises-islamic-center-hits-young-cuomo/
• http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/peter_worthington/2010/08/04/14926731.html
• http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/26172

The Wiki article text misleadingly calls these opinion pieces "reports." They're political commentary which mention the 9/11 construction meme in passing. An opinion piece is not a reliable source.

There's also a Daily Mail article which re-asserts the 9/11 timeline, but the article gives no indication of how the author knows of this date.

There IS one link which actually names the source for its information on the construction schedule:

• http://mediamatters.org/research/201007200004

In this article, Daisy Khan, a leader involved in the project, says that claims associating the building's construction with 9/11 are absolutely false.

So we have several unsourced claims of a 9/11 construction timeline. (just because you can give a URL for a Web site doesn't make it a source. If somebody knows something, they ought to be able to explain HOW they know.) And we have one sourced claim from the builders in question that there is no 9/11 construction timeline.

The opinion pieces making the baseless claims should be noted in the article, but they should not be credulously referred to as "reports". --Mr. Billion (talk) 09:35, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I find the current text well-written and balanced. It no longer includes the bald statement that "Construction is due to begin on September 11, 2011", which is what I was objecting to in the first place. Thank you. -- Dan Griscom (talk) 15:12, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I've worked on it, and will work on it more. We certainly don't have to restate who Kahn is every time she is introduced in x words -- that's the sort of thing that makes editors' eyes glaze over. Opinion pieces making baseless claims need not be noted in an article, especially if not an RS or not a notable author. As to articles mentioning sources, sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. That's why we have RS cats -- we find those papers that are RS to be reliable and trustworthy in regard to whether they in turn use appropriate approaches. Not even the best non-scholarly RS footnotes every sentence (as this article does, more or less). There certainly is no requirement in wp that -- especially in a non-BLP -- the RS must indicated how it knows what it knows.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:29, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

However, if one RS states how it knows what it knows (with a direct quotation from the party in question), and another RS stating the opposite does not, that represents a clear difference in the credibility of the two claims. --Mr. Billion (talk) 18:37, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, we should include the fact that Khan said that the claim of a 9/11 timeline for the building is "absolutely false" because that is clearly germane to the issue of whether or not there is a 9/11 timeline for the building. --Mr. Billion (talk) 18:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

This issue is likely already put to rest -- but I wanted to add that I think I know where the 9/11/11 date came from. In a May 6, 2010 article in the New York Daily News, Khan was quoted as hoping to begin construction before that date: [2] (In a May 5 WSJ Blog, she was also quoted as expecting the project to take three years: [3]) In a May 13, 2010 opinion piece in the New York Post, Andrea Peyser had changed things around a bit. No longer would construction simply begin sometime before 9/11/11 and take three years. Now it was to open on exactly that date: [4] It appears to have been repeated from there. How to handle it in the encyclopedia is...something I'll leave to better angels. But I just wanted to provide that background, in case it's helpful. --TheOtherBob 03:51, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality

The article lacks objectivity and appears to be engaging directly in the greater dispute over Cordoba House. The language used is extremely loaded ("the plan is to raze an existing 1850s Italianate building" instead of something like "the owners of the Burlington Coat Factory building plan to demolish it and replace it with a Muslim community center"), includes quite a bit of weaseling ("Many were upset...") give undue weight to unsubstantiated allegations ("Some politicians questioned the project's source of funding") and to the objections of marginal figures like Suleiman Schwartz, Hossein Kamaly, and particularly Zuhdi Jasser. That's not even counting the foregrounding of the debate over the name "Cordoba House" in the introduction, which gives undue attention to unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. That debate is worth a side note, if even that.

I also note that in the sidebar the "Architecture Type" of the building is still listed as "Mosque," which is not only inaccurate, it's meaningless. The whole article needs to be stripped down and rewritten in NPOV. Leo Caesius (talk) 06:30, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree completely. There is plenty of quote mining. Newyorkmuslim (talk) 06:44, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I tried deleting the quote-farm but User:Epeefleche, the one who is responsible for the article in it's current state just keeps reverting me and adding warnings to my page. He seems to think that just because it's in the news, it should be included in the article, completely ignoring WP:NOTNEWS & WP:NOTDIRECTORY.--Endosentric (talk) 06:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, User:Epeefleche is the one who deleted my POV tag within three minutes of my posting it as a "baseless and unsupported tag bomb", just as I was posting my objections in Talk. He's behaving as if he is personally invested in the POV represented by the current page. Leo Caesius (talk) 07:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, there's 3 of us and one of him. Let consensus reign. Newyorkmuslim (talk) 16:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

tagging is not a constructive way of building an encyclopedia. if your edits are reverted, bring your issues to the talk page, where it can be discussed by other editors. but please don't use the tag to hold the article hostage. in general, the controversy surrounding the mosque belongs in article about the mosque. if there are specific concerns about the lack of NPOV, please discuss them here. thanks, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 18:52, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The reactions, pro and con, are what makes this subject particularly notable. I would also add pace Newyorkmuslim, that two very fresh accounts dedicated to this topic do not a consensus make. Wikipedia would be easily manipulable if we allowed that sort of thing to happen. IronDuke 20:21, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Fine, then I'll go ahead and start changing the language myself, since it's obvious that constructive criticism isn't "a constructive way of building an encyclopedia".Leo Caesius (talk) 11:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree w Brew and Iron, for reasons they state.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:15, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

This article is simply not neutral in tone. If the purpose of the article is to describe the Controversy, then it should be more balanced in presenting the arguments. In its current state, it gives undue and excessive attention to the architectural features of the existing building, and overall, gives much greater weight to arguments against the proposed mosque than arguments for it. Example: Polls showed ... whereas Michael Bloomberg, 5 vs. 1.5 sentences. The History section, in particular, needs to be completely re-written for neutrality. 9/11: Don't need to reiterate the minute by minute events of 9/11 here. The section gives undue attention to questions on sources of funding and Rauf's views; not mentioning the speculative and motivated nature of the questioning. Since anti-Muslim bigotry is a large part of the current controversy, there should be a section for it in the History section: The anti-mosque protests occurring across the U.S. would help provide understanding of the context in which this current controversy is taking place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Art thomas (talk • contribs) 19:06, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Islamophobia/Anti-Muslim Bigotry

There have been many responses to the opposition of this mosque, claiming the motivation behind the anti-mosque position stems from xenophobia, "islamophobia", and anti-Muslim bigotry. That view needs to be included, whether in the body of an existing section or in a section of its own. Reviews of Newt Ginrich's comments, for example, the fact that Fareed Zakaria returned the ADL's award to him because of their position, etc. Newyorkmuslim (talk) 19:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, a review of the article indicates that it is in fact already reflected. As the article reflects, Ibrahim Hooper, Communications Director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, charged that the controversy was "manufactured" by "bigots". As the article further reflects, the Anti-Defamation League denounced what it saw as bigoted attacks on the mosque. Its head opined that some of those who oppose the mosque are "bigots". This article is chock full with direct comments on the mosque. If you want to create a new article, with "comments by third parties on comments that others have made directly on the mosque", that's certainly a possibility. But, given the size of this article already, I think it would be far too much to laden this article with that now--especially, as any such discussion would be quite large, the commentary on the commentators having consisted of many comments by many observors of those comments.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:11, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's a tip: when quoting people, wrap the entire statement in quotation marks. I know it's more fun to use scare quotes, but it's against wikipedia policy to do so in articles, and it's unseemly on talk pages. Though, thank you for being so open with your personal opinion about the subject of this article. --72.215.55.178 (talk) 19:00, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

islam ist/ic + militant/terrorists lameness

Regarding this and similar previous edits, the September 11 attacks article's lead says 'al-Qaeda terrorists'. Any reason we can't go with that or something similar ? I assume they discussed it and edit warred furiously for several years to arrive at that formulation. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:08, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

The sentence in question is explaining the motive for opposition to the mosque. Does "al Qaeda terrorists" explain the motive? The mosque is not being constructed by al Qaeda, so the sentence would appear as a non-sequitur. The motive for opposition appears to be what al Qaeda and the Cordoba Initiative have in common -- their religion, Islam. Opponents either do not mentally distinguish among variants of Islam, or do distinguish but fear this mosque, due to its location, will prove a haven or symbol for extremists. Therefore it seems logical to note the religion of the terrorists, to provide the connection that is the basis (whether rational or not) of opposition to the mosque. Fletcher (talk) 22:22, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree completely with Fletcher's well-articulated comment.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, that's why I said 'or something similar'. Are readers unaware that al Qaeda are an Islamist group ? Where have they been all these years ? My concern is more that the slow burn edit warring over the terminology needs to stop and there needs to be a consensus on the talk page. I would say 1) it was al Qaeda so lets says that in the lead, 2) they are described as terrorists to a sufficient extent that it renders WP:TERRORIST irrelevant, 3) if we need to make the Islamist connection clearer then lets say that => how about "al Qaeda Islamic terrorists" ? I prefer Islamist but I also think it doesn't matter. Is there any sensible policy based reason why anyone would object to that and try to edit war it out of the article ? Sean.hoyland - talk 07:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I would prefer the use of "al Qaeda Islamist terrorists" to describe the 9/11 perpetrators. I do not think we should present the "Islamic" commonality between the 9/11 perpetrators and the Cordoba Initiative as factual. Indeed it is the heart of the controversy. Some who oppose the mosque believe that this commonality exists, while many supporters of the proposed mosque believe that the perpetrators and their acts were precisely un-Islamic. I agree with Fletcher that some opponents "do not mentally distinguish among variants of Islam", but as authors of a neutral article, I believe that we should do so. In other words, it is one thing to point out that the terrorists purported to be Muslims or to act in the name of Islam, or that some associate (rightly or wrongly) Islam with terrorism. It is another thing to actually use language that suggests that the terrorists were in fact Islamic (many disagree). Art thomas — Preceding undated comment added 19:50, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree completely, however the relevant main article is called Islamic terrorism rather than Islamist terrorism. Article titles should (in principal) be policy compliant and so we should be able to use them directly without bypassing/tweaking the title locally in other articles like this one where they are linked. I favour cross-article terminology inheritance in that respect. The policy compliance issues are discussed and the naming decisions are made in the main article and that should be enough in my view. Other articles inherit that decision so that you don't have to have the same battles all over the place. It's all very well to argue that Islamist is better than Islamic in some sense here in this article but to me it's no different from someone arguing that 'disputed territories' (a term favoured by the likes of CAMERA and various right wing groups) is better as a link name in a particular article than 'Israeli occupied territories', the standard policy compliant term used by the likes of the ICRC etc and the title of the main article. The right place to make a case for a change in terminology is on the talk page of the main article rather than here. That's how I see these issues anyway for what it's worth. Sean.hoyland - talk 20:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

• I lean towards Islamist (to distinguish Islamists from non-Islamist Islamics), but of course defer to whatever the consensus may be on this. Completely agree with the comments that we don't have to say both AQ and Islamist. We may have children of all ages reading this, so the focus between the two should be Islamist (or Islamic) terrorists, as that is the issue here -- the controversy does not relate to which specific terrorist org is involved, just that they are Islamist terrorists.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Currently, we describe the 9/11 attackers as a "militant Islamist group." If the decision is between calling them that or an 'Islamic terrorist group,' I think the former sounds much less controversial and altogether more appealing. However, if you look at the 'Islamic terrorism' page and compare it to the 'Islamist' page, it appears the Islamic terrorism page much more closely relates to the motives/actions of Al-Qaeda than the Islamist page. The Islamist page focuses very broadly on Muslim movements aimed at creating Muslim political governments, parties, etc. As the page describes, even many Islamist militant groups don't engage in the uniquely violent type of militancy represented by 9/11-i.e., terrorism. Meanwhile, the Islamic terrorism page focuses on groups that engage in mass attacks on civilians for the purpose of achieving political goals and details Al-Qaeda's motivations and goals, some of which relate to Islamism and many of which did not. It seems a reader would be better-informed by clicking a link to the Islamic terrorism page than the Islamist page. --24.98.20.31 (talk) 18:08, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Newt and the name "Cordoba House"

Gingrich is quoted as saying that the name "Cordoba House" is a because Muslims destroyed a church in Medieval Cordoba. But it's not like this church was famous before Gingrich started making a fuss about it.The Catholic Encyclopedia has a lengthy account of Cordoba that doesn't even mention it.[5] Britannica doesn't mention it either. Cordoba is best-known as an intellectual center in Medieval times, home to rabbi Maimonides and other scholars. Cordoba is mentioned in Lawrence of Arabia, so it's not just Medieval history fans who would know this: In the Arab city of Cordova, there were two miles of public lighting in the streets when London was a village. Kauffner (talk) 10:16, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia, the great mosque of Cordoba was built on the site of Christian Church. This is consistent with the conversion of the Hagia Sohpia, in Constantinople into a Mosque after its capture and the Construction of the Dome of the Rock. Bin Laden also explicitly linked the Reconquest of Andalusia with the 911 attacks.

Interesting as this is, I think it (and any responses by me or others) would stray into the notaforum area. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

There's an excellent article on the relevant history of Cordoba at http://gotmedieval.blogspot.com/2010/08/professor-newts-distorted-history.html Might be good to add something from this next to Gingrich's view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.2.1.16 (talk) 10:24, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The link you have provided is a blog, which is generally not considered a reliable source, and thus shouldn't be used as one (especially given the controversial topic of this article). elektrikSHOOS 10:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Would The Catholic Encyclopedia be an acceptable source on the history and symbolism of Cordoba? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.2.1.16 (talk) 07:04, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe. I'd look on the article about Cordoba for a whole slew of reliable sources on its history. elektrikSHOOS 20:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

long article

WP:Article size means this page is almost in line to be split somehow. Perhaps by reactions or background?Lihaas (talk) 15:52, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Fox News poll

• http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/081310_MosquePoll.pdf

30% of Americans think it is appropriate to go ahead with the establishment of Cordoba House, but 61% of Americans think that the group building the House has a right to go ahead. That fact should be mentioned in the article, I think. NW (Talk) 16:34, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

This strikes me as an odd thing to believe. As a practical matter, you can't build anything in the U.S. without the city's approval. Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church is in the same area as Park51 and is also on a site damaged in 9/11, but the Port Authority is refusing permission to rebuild.[6] The PA told the church officials that the steeple couldn't be taller than the proposed 9/11 memorial. Kauffner (talk) 03:06, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Kauffner, Saint Nicholad Greek Orthodox Church was right across the street from the WTC [7], and will be very much visible from the site of Ground Zero unlike the site for Park 51, which is two blocks away and not visible from the site. Secondly, the Port Authority hasn't "refused permission" as the Human Events article states. Check the site for the Church itself [8] for confirmation of this. The central problem is that the Church is just one of 26 rebuilding projects in the immediate vicinity of Ground Zero. Finally, The attempt to manufacture outrage by comparing the two sites as being located "in the same area" is more than a little obvious. Still, you've brought up a point of criticism that should be addressed within this article.Jemiljan (talk) 06:49, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Adding to the above, Mayor Bloomberg's response to Demos' criticism: "It's been a bone of contention [between] the church and the Port Authority. And I've gotten involved mainly because the archbishop lives directly across the street from me, and he comes out with his staff and we chit-chat. He doesn't come over to borrow a cup of coffee, but that's okay. And I think they're very close [to] working with the Port Authority to find a location down there. There was one, I think the church wanted it, but it didn't fit in with the Port Authority plans because it would have interfered with other things, but there will be a new church built down there. And Chris Ward, the executive director of the Port Authority, I know is working with the Greek Orthodox Church to try to find some ways to get this done."[9]Jemiljan (talk) 08:46, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

• Added to the article. As for why people believe this: it seems a good number of people respect the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment even when they disagree with the actual plan. NW (Talk) 13:34, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Religious buildings have no special status in law. They are expected to follow the zoning ordinance as well as all the other construction-related rules. If most citizens of NYC don't want Park51, they should able to exercise their democratic rights. If Bloomberg thinks he was elected by bigots, what does that say about his own legitimacy? Kauffner (talk) 18:38, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Kauffner, religious buildings very much are protected according to our Federal laws, specifically the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000, which was passed unanimously by both Congress and the Senate. It was also, rather ironically, championed by none other than Peter King, and has been consitently cited by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ).[10]Jemiljan (talk) 20:48, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it seems that there is no legal way to block construction, at least not according to this analysis. But of course that makes the PA's treatment of St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church even more shabby. After all, its not as if the PA has statutory authority over building heights. Kauffner (talk) 11:01, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

• Good catch by NW adding it to the article. Very, very good insight, in just a short poll. I'll avoid getting into the "why", interesting as it is, so as not to make this a forum. Will just mention that the community board involved avoided carefully touching on the mosque aspect of the issue, as did the Landmarks Commission. This isn't Port Authority land, so they would not be involved. A state commission may be involved, however, in the sale aspect, as the article reflects.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:01, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Support and opposition sections

Why are there massive support and opposition sections. These should be combined. An encyclopedia article isn't a debate format. Were straws drawn to see which side would go first? Freakshownerd (talk) 23:05, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe this format works quite well.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:57, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with the original poster. Per WP:CRITICISM, editors should exercise extreme caution when the article is split into pro/con sections as this can jeopardize the neutrality of the article. This obviously is something that's up for debate, however.

In my opinion, given the controversy this currently is in the US, splitting this article into for/against sections seems to turn it into an ideological battleground. (Reflecting the current status of the nation on this issue, really, but Wikipedia should be a neutral source, not a mirror.) elektrikSHOOS 02:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Sex segregation

This page is not for general discussion of Cordoba House. Factual questions should be directed to Wikipedia:Reference desk. Thank you.
The following discussion has been closed by Elektrik Shoos. Please do not modify it.
To what extent is the mosque sex segregated?--98.88.82.107 (talk) 05:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Mosque On Site At The Pentagon

Re: this edit that restored the 'Mosque On Site At The Pentagon' section compared to this edit that treated it as just another statement of support by a politician, what is it about this particular observation by Nadler amongst all of the other sentences in this report that indicates that WP:DUE compliance requires a separate section and the stating of Nadler's view in Wikipedia's unattributed narrative voice ? Sean.hoyland - talk 14:07, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

It requires a separate section because it's not just Nadler's opinion that there is a mosque at the Pentagon. It is a factual matter that there is one, and a factual matter that there has not been a similar outcry for its removal. Treating a factual matter as if it were a matter of partisan opinion gives aid and succor to those who would turn all truth into a mere partisan opinion. This would reduce Wikipedia to a repository of partisan "truthiness". Zachary Klaas (talk) 14:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is already a repository of partisan truthiness as this article clearly demonstrates but I was unaware that it had introduced an apartheid policy of segregating media sampled factoids from media sampled opinion soundbites in their respective truthiness bantustans. The issue for me is that as wiki source-monkeys we're meant to determine the appropriate weight to assign to a piece of information based on how much weight reliable sources give it. I don't think we're doing that if we put this soundbite in its own section although I guess there might be more sources covering this interesting difference between the 2 sites. Anyway, I'm happy to let consensus prevail. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I feel like I'm doing the "due weight" evaluation here - given that one side of this debate is premised on the idea that the political Right is manufacturing the Ground Zero mosque controversy for political gain, it's obviously important that the Right did not raise a similar alarm when Islamic religious services were being held at the other "Ground Zero" site at the Pentagon...possibly because a conservative was President at the time. So the crisis gets manufactured to embarrass a liberal president, while no one says anything during the term of a conservative one. You'll note, I've also referenced the original 2007 story in the Washington Times (the more right-wing of Washington's daily newspapers, by the way) about Muslim religious services being held at the Pentagon itself. The story has legs and I think a consensus will see that. Zachary Klaas (talk) 15:14, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• Agree that that is tangential at best. We could also relate it to all the other mosques in the country as to which there is controversy. Tangential. Does not belong. Will delete, per comments in this string.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:03, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, good for you, but do you and the other guy posting here = consensus? The reason the Pentagon matters and the other mosque sites do not, for this article, is because the Pentagon is the other "Ground Zero" site...did that escape your notice? I worded this in a fairly clear way in the article. Anyone else feel we _do_ need this in the article? Zachary Klaas (talk) 04:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, I assume it's obvious to people that conservatives will go to revert war over this comparison because it's embarrassing to their ideological worldview. But it is a factual comparison, and it is explicitly related to the Park51 project because it's the other "Ground Zero" site and Muslims have been welcome to worship there well after 9-11. If we let them win this, we should just rebrand this as an annex to Conservapedia... Zachary Klaas (talk) 04:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The content has been retained without edit warring plus I think it's fair to say that, despite its faults, this article does a better job than the Conservapedia article... Sean.hoyland - talk 08:32, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The content is still being edited out. I've just replaced the content again. What I want to see at a minimum is that no one, including the conservatives, disputes that Muslims have repeatedly held religious services at the Pentagon. This is the point that exposes their hypocrisy on the issue. The opponents claim that NYC's Ground Zero is hallowed ground that would somehow be tarnished by the presence of a Muslim mosque...but the other Ground Zero site has repeatedly had Muslim religious services, of the type that are performed in a mosque, and accommodating a number of people characteristic of what would be served by a mosque. Whether we call it a mosque or not, the site performs the functions of a mosque. The repeated holding of these services at the Pentagon, on site, not two blocks away, is is an uncontested point and must be represented as factual, not a matter of opinion. It's a non-negotiable, as far as I'm concerned. Zachary Klaas Zachary Klaas (talk) 02:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Rollback

Sorry about the accidental rollback; just a result of trying to browse my watchlist on my phone. — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 17:18, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

About the name "Cordoba" in reference to the muslim caliphate of Cordoba

About this sentence, and to stop people (user:Goethean) to change it to their own point of view or to delete it:
"Those who opposed the proposed center cited its proximity to Ground Zero (...). They also cited the name of the mosque, Cordoba, in reference to the Spanish city of Córdoba, a Christian city which was conquered by the Moors and became the capital of the Muslim caliphate."

This is the position of people who oppose the project as cited in the sources:

• Fox News: "Originally titled "Cordoba House" -- a reference to the Spanish capital where Muslim conquerors vanquished Spanish Catholics in the 8th century"
• Toronto Sun: "Cordoba House, named after the capital of the Muslim conquest of Spain centuries ago. And let’s make it a headquarters for Dawah, the Arabic word for promoting sharia law."
• Accuracy in Media: "In order to understand just how deliberately abrasive the construction of Park51 – or, as originally intended, The Cordoba House – in the shadow of Ground Zero actually is, we must come to understand its inferred meaning and to do that we must understand a period of violent Muslim aggression, circa 711AD, that established the Emirate and Caliphate of Cordoba."

Their positions and their terms are that Cordoba is a reference to the "muslim conquest of Spain", the place where "muslim conquerors vanquished Spanish Catholics", to the "violent Muslim aggression that established the Emirate and Caliphate of Cordoba".

The article just has to give their position, whether you agree with it or not you don't have the right to change it to your own, Wikipedia just give everybody's position.--Onesbrief (talk) 20:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

The Fox News article says nothing about the motivations of the opposition to the center being due to the name being a reference to the conquest of Cordoba. It was used as a reference to describe the motivations of the opposition to the center. It therefore fails verification as a source for that statement. That is why I have removed it as a source from that sentence and why it should remain that way. — goethean ॐ 21:08, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Onesbrief, for reasons he stated. The article and the articles with on the internet are replete with such statements--as to the lede, Goeth or others need not look only at its refs, but can look in the article. In fact, you are welcome to move refs up and repeat them in the lede, though that is a matter of style and not generally required. Goethaean -- hiding the ball from the readers is not good form.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Not only are the arguments of Fox News et al EXTREMELY dubious from a historical perspective, but they effectively argue (in the absence of any objectively convincing evidence) that the name "Cordoba House" is indicative of some sort of anti-Western conspiracy on the part of the project sponsors. Regardless of however popular this conspiracy theory may be among certain quarters, it remains an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory and its presence in the lede is directly analogous to dedicating a paragraph of the lede of the article on the September 11 attacks to the position of the 9/11 Truth movement. Ultimately, we have to ask ourselves: is this article intended to be an objective resource for the building in question or is it intended to be a vehicle for all sorts of unsubstantiated rumor and innuendo? It seems that there is substantial disagreement within this page about the role of the article.Leo Caesius (talk) 22:08, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Description of center in lede

Okay, here, User:Epeefleche edit wars and insists that we falsely describe the center as consisting only of a mosque, because the article is only about the controversy. This is doubly or perhaps trebly wrong. Someone please revert him. — goethean ॐ 21:39, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• That is untrue. I believe that we should mention in the very first sentence that it is both a community center and includes a mosque. At the same time, per wp:lede and wp:undue, as mentioned in my edit summaries, it is not appropriate to laden the lede with facts about its swimming pool and other features. Those are in the article (I actually had added them to the article myself, so I'm happy of course for it to be reflected in the article). But that is not the focus of the notability, so for the lede it is appropriate to say that it is a community center with a mosque. Furthermore -- your effort to suggest that the controversy is about the community center aspect is not borne out by the articles. Clearly the locus of the controversy is the mosque. It does the readers little good for you to hide that from them. This has previously been discussed on this talk page.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:53, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that we should describe the center accurately rather than merely repeating Republican talking points. — goethean ॐ 23:07, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Nobody is doing so (nor would I be inclined to). Nor is your comment even facially plausible -- Bloomberg's main focus is on freedom of religion relating to the fact that it is in fact a mosque that the controversy relates to. He is a democrat. He is not pretending, as you are, that the notability and controversy are about the book store and swimming pool. We are following wiki policies. We focus on notability. That is measured by what the RSs report on. The bookstore is not the high point of interest about the mosque. Thus there is no need, because Goethean would like to stress it and sundry other non-notable facts in the first sentence, to feed him.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Describe the subject accurately and fairly, regardless of the locus of the controversy. To do so is not to 'pretend' anything. Contrary to Republican talking points, the center consists of more than a mosque. — goethean ॐ 01:04, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

You miss the point. You could accurately and fairly describe the existing wallpaper in the building, go into detail about the columns, describe the color of it, describe how many steps it has. You could also seek to stick that in the lede, and even in the first sentence. The fact that it is accurate and fair is not the end of the story. Relevance is key. As is wp:undue. It's true that experienced POV warriors sometimes wikilawyer with "but it is accurate". So what. We focus here on notability, which is measured by RS coverage. There is no question that the RS coverage here (and comments by all manner of notable persons) does not focus on the bookstore, etc. That's a "king has not clothes" argument. Just as your "calling it a mosque is a Democratic ploy". Balderdash. The focus of those in favor of the location of the mosque focus on freedom of religion as their number one point. That relates to the mosque -- not to the swimming pool. These points are, I would have thought, sort of obvious.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:52, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

It is surprising that people get so bent out of shape over the addition of a few extra words, even ones which they admit are completely accurate. "Mosque" is more inflammatory than "community center". Unfortunately for those who want to inflame, the proposed building is a community center, not just a mosque. Please describe the proposed center accurately. — goethean ॐ 02:42, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Bloomberg is not a Democrat; he is an Independent. Furthermore, a prayer space and a mosque are two very different things, even if they serve the same function. Technically, a mosque is a type of building, not an individual room, which is oriented towards Mecca and usually (though not always) possesses at least one minaret.Leo Caesius (talk) 00:30, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Other lede issues

An editor or two seem intent on skewing the lede from what is reflected in the notable RSs and in the statements of notable persons. Among the efforts: make it seem that the protests related to the swimming pool, bookstore, etc.--and drown out mention of the mosque in mentions of that. To delete references to the fact that some commentators have mentioned the Spanish city reference as the locus of Islamic soldiers defeating Christian soldiers. Pretending that only two have raised that issue. Etc. All IMHO is classic POV editing. Folks -- let's accurately say what all sides here say -- not disrupt the article by concealing it.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:50, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. It is sticking to exactly what the supplied sources say,. and nothing more. There is no provided source which says that opposition to the mosque is because of its name --- only two op-ed authors who state their opposition. They are primary sources, not the secondary sources that policy says that we should rely upon. If you want to expand the claims, supply sources which make those expanded claims. Thus far, you have failed to do so. — goethean ॐ 01:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Opaque balderdash. See my above comments. Plus, many commentators have spoken as to the name of the mosque. And the efforts to have the discussion of its pool and bookstore drown out mention of the mosque is not appropriate. To put it mildly.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:55, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

"Drown out"? Is that an attempt at humor? I don't think that anything is going to drown out the screaming heads on CNN, with whom you are unfortunately in unison. — goethean ॐ 02:25, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, is this supposed to be an article on Park51 itself or specifically an article on the 'controversy' surrounding Park51? If the former, then mention of the swimming pool, culinary school, bookstore, et al. are not only relevant but appropriate in the lede. If the latter, then you can concentrate on the prayer space or mosque to your heart's content. My own impression, however, is that the focus of the article should be the building itself, not necessarily the controversy surrounding it.Leo Caesius (talk) 22:12, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

By the same token, rumor-mongering and unsubstantiated innuendo on the part of some commentators about scenarios of Islamic conquest have absolutely no place in the lede of an article on the project itself, as they are merely a side-note to the controversy surrounding the project. Leo Caesius (talk) 22:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, the mini-history of Cordoba should be removed from the lede. — goethean ॐ 00:42, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

No it should not, as the (alleged) connection to Islamic conquest is a big part of the controversy surrounding this project, which is what attests to its notability. Further, the amenities of the community center (swimming pool et al) are listed under Planned Facilities, and do not need to be in the lede. Now if in five years they have a world renowned culinary school at the site, by all means put it in the lede, but currently these amenities have little notability compared to the controversy over the mosque. Fletcher (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Is this, then, an article about Park51 or the Park51 Controversy? If the former, then the amenities are definitely notable. If the latter, then the conspiracies about Islamic conquest are arguably notable as well. I was under the impression, though, that this article is about the whole community center itself, not merely about the mosque/prayer space within it or the controversy surrounding that space. Honestly, I can't believe that we're at the point where we're eliminating basic information about the structure to make room for unsubstantiated conspiracy-mongering.Leo Caesius (talk) 02:04, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm a little frustrated that you replied but did not seem to read anything I said: as noted, the various amenities are listed under the Planned facilities section, so we're not "eliminating basic information." It is a question of whether some details like the swimming pool, which have not attracted any controversy or discussion that I can see, belong in the lede. According to WP:LEDE, the information in the lede should reflect its importance to the topic. As for what the topic actually is, it is Park51 and all significant aspects of it, which would include the controversy. Although the controversy dominates the article, that is what gives the article most of its notability. But there is no reason other aspects of the project can't be addressed in greater depth as more information becomes available. As for "unsubstantiated conspiracy-mongering" I again can't tell what you are complaining of because you are speaking so generally. Are you saying the views of mainstream Republicans like Gingrich and Lazio should be excluded as fringe theories, or that statements by 9/11 families should be excluded? Those opinions seem like they're relevant to the controversy (even if one agrees they are misguided). Fletcher (talk) 01:06, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

The phrase "inaccurately referred to as the Ground Zero mosque" is itself inaccurate. The adverb should be "imprecisely"; the mosque is in fact a feature of the community center but not the only one. MikeLHenderson (talk) 15:13, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Neither is acceptable. Wikipedia cannot editorialize about it. Fletcher (talk) 01:06, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Name

Not sure who changed the name to Park 51. But that is incorrect. No space between the two. If someone could fix it, and the redirects, that would be great.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:09, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I left a note (User talk:Zachary Klaas#moved article) at the editor's talk page. — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 22:17, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

And I'll be fixing it right now. Sorry for any temporary double redirects; I'll be fixing them as soon as possible too. elektrikSHOOS 22:28, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

There was a redirect left at Park51 to this page, so that needs to be deleted to make way, but I've tagged it with db-g6. An admin should get to it shortly. elektrikSHOOS 22:38, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Tx ... were I to attempt to address, I would no doubt make it worse. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done Jujutacular ^talk 02:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I did attempt to make it the no space version of the name but encountered difficulties...was hoping someone else would pick this up and complete the task. Zachary Klaas (talk) 04:18, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

9/11 Families

Why is the anti-Mosque organization of 9/11 families (appears to be about half a dozen) broken out seperately and given several paragraphs but the larger pro-Mosque organization of 9/11 families (over two hundred) lumped in with other random groups and given one line.70.108.241.211 (talk) 22:27, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I would say we should cover it as it is covered in the RSs. Last I edited those sections, it did so.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Is this (or does it contain) a mosque?

Keith Olbermann's commentary on MSNBC earlier this evening indicated that 'mosque' is an inappropriate term for all or any of this proposed center; as he states, 'mosque' refers purely to a building completely dedicated to worship, whereas this building will be primarily for community use for education, recreation, and other aspects, with only the top two floors being 'prayer space'.

I can't state any more familiarity with the terminology myself, but could anyone else weigh in on this? If Mr. Olbermann does have his facts straight, should the word 'mosque' be used at all to describe this project? Radagast (talk) 03:46, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Keith, the sports anchorman? Anyway, check the footnotes. Check the ELs. Check the arguments (e.g., religious freedom). The mosque aspect of this is the locus of commentators, for and against.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:51, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

This isn't the place to question the merits of TV journalists. In any case, I'd agree with Epefleeche. If it has 'prayer space' and nearly every source mentioned says it includes a mosque, it includes a mosque. As much as I'd love to agree with Olbermann, in this case he's downplaying the impact of the word 'mosque' by calling it a 'prayer space'. Many Christian-run hospitals contain a 'prayer space' which is called a chapel, but that doesn't mean that the entire hospital is called a church, nor that we shouldn't call the chapel what it is. elektrikSHOOS 04:40, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Log this comment in your memory, folks...because when conservatives start insisting the mosque at the Pentagon is just a prayer space, you call the chapel/mosque what it is. Zachary Klaas (talk) 17:34, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

By definition, a mosque is a structure. Keith is correct in saying a prayer room in a larger structure isn't by definition a mosque. Newyorkmuslim (talk) 21:50, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Except that the project's own website says it will include "a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community". So there is some ambiguity about this. And even if they delete all references to a mosque, it won't be clear if that's because it truly is not a mosque, or if they are just trying to soften their image. So the word must stay; it isn't Wikipedia's role to manage public relations for them. Fletcher (talk) 00:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it's pretty obvious that this page (as currently written) is crafted to do the exact opposite: it is a one stop source for unsubstantiated rumors and innuendo, presented alongside the odd fact as if they were all of equal value. Leo Caesius (talk) 00:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Even if some opinions expressed are not rational, it is necessary to provide some coverage of the controversy, without which this article likely never would have been created. I do think it is too long and gives too much weight to the opinions of politicians, including minor figures I've never heard of. The basic arguments for and against could be conveyed without so many quotes. However, it is very important that any trimming must be done in a balanced way. The controversy seems to be a big jumble of people sounding off, and it's not our role to imply that one side or the other is wrong. Fletcher (talk) 01:39, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Not all criticisms of the project are of equal legitimacy. Conspiracy-mongering ("It's clearly a victory mosque funded by al-Qaeda to commemorate the defeat of Spanish Catholics and pogroms against Jews!!!") should not be presented in the same light as straightforward objections ("Many people believe that the location of the mosque is insensitive...").Leo Caesius (talk) 02:01, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree any WP:FRINGE claim can be removed (unless there is a specific justification to include it), but I do not see that particular claim appearing in the article. I searched for mentions of al Qaeda, but don't see any instance where someone claimed al Qaeda was funding the project, nor do I remember such a claim in the article. The word pogrom also does not currently appear in the article, so I'm not clear exactly what you are complaining of. The term "victory mosque" does appear, but this is a quote from one of the 9/11 families, which is likely worth including to explain some of their perspectives. I'm sure we can discuss any other specific concerns you might have. Fletcher (talk) 00:43, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

There's a church that I have often passed by which includes an XBOX game room, an exercise room, a tanning bed room and other activities, but it doesn't change the basic fact that it's primarily a church even though it doesn't call itself as such. Do we go through Wikipedia and change article for all the churches that call themselves "worship centers?" This NYC building's primary purpose is to be a mosque, thus it should be called such. 64.184.253.134 (talk) 21:40, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree, although I don't think we can say if it's primary purpose it to be a mosque - I don't think anyone can be sure how big the mosque will be relative to the other facilities - but certainly many reliable sources and the project's own website have described the project as having a mosque, so we should refer to it as such. Fletcher (talk) 00:43, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

it doesn't change the basic fact that it's primarily a church even though it doesn't call itself as such

What does it call itself? — goethean ॐ 00:47, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Fundamentalist

I removed the word "fundamentalist" from the description of Al-Qaeda. If you check out its article you would see that this word refers, in its original sense, to a person's view of his religions scriptures. Nothing to do with terrorism, etc. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:15, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Changing 'mosque' to 'project' etc

Since the correct term for the project is a matter of controversy, I have replaced some instances of the term 'mosque' with neutral terms such as 'project' or 'facility'.

Earlier I was warned of a 'merge text' situation, but I tried again later and my changes were saved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.2.1.16 (talk) 00:29, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Supports and Criticism

I'm going to move some of Fareed Zakaria and Michael Bloomberg statement to the support section --Thundera m117 (talk) 13:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Use of the word "mosque" in this article

I'm bringing this here for discussion, since it would be a fairly substantial change. This was previously mentioned two headers above, but it was more of a "I'm going to do this" and not a dedicated section for comment on the issue.

I think that the use of the word "mosque" to describe the building is misleading. Park51 is, as described in the article and elsewhere, a "community center." It contains many spaces including a 'prayer space' which we'll call a mosque per my argument above. But that doesn't also mean the whole center should be called one either. Use of that word in the article outside of the context of describing that prayer space is just editorializing due to the impact of the word. However, I recognize that this may be up for debate so I'm bringing this issue here for feedback before I decide to change it anyway, given the controversial nature of this topic. elektrikSHOOS 19:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Later material on the promoters' website may be distinguishing the planned 'prayer space' from a 'mosque'. http://cordobainitiative.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/what-is-prayer-space/ What is Prayer Space? Among the questions we have heard regarding Cordoba House is what is the definition of a prayer space, and how is that different than a mosque. .... Prayer space does not signify a mosque. Certain aspects of Cordoba House disqualifies it as a mosque, including space for musical performance or a restaurant, which are not allowed to be in a mosque. However, additional prayer is necessary as the existing nearby mosques are no longer able to tend to the need for prayer space. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.2.1.16 (talk) 22:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

This is partly covered under Planned facilities where it is shown they have said both that it is a mosque, and it isn't. We have to balance between two things:

• Calling it only a mosque is POV because it places all the weight on what opponents are objecting to, even though other facilities are planned besides the mosque.
• Calling it only a community center is POV because it elides the main source of contention - the mosque - making the article seem like it's been airbrushed to be politically correct.

I recommend we use the word mosque when describing what people are objecting to (as long as that's accurate in context), and use neutral words like "the project", "the center", and so forth other times. But remember these words lose their neutrality when they don't describe what people are objecting to.Fletcher (talk) 23:59, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

In some contexts, neutrality may be increased by changing 'opposing the mosque' to 'opposing a mosque'.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.2.1.16 (talk) 00:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

"Citation needed"

"in his post attack video release, Osama bin Laden explicitly designated the attack as revenge for the loss of Córdoba and Andalusia to the Spanish in the 15th century." [citation needed]

This is seriously inflammatory, and I don't think it can stand without a citation... -- AvatarMN (talk) 00:45, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

It is probably incorrect. A post attack video said that the attack was in protest for the US support of Israel in a current land dispute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.2.1.16 (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe that this is the Bin Laden quote that is being referred to: "Let the whole world know that we shall never accept that the tragedy of Andalusia would be repeated in Palestine. We cannot accept that Palestine will become Jewish."[11] Andalusia means Spain. This quote doesn't mention Cordoba, so I don't think it is relevant to this article. I see no implication that 9/11 was revenge for something that happened in Medieval Spain. In his 1998 fatwa, Bin Laden explained that the Koran requires Muslims to kill Americans because we are a bunch of infidels. The revenge/blowback theories make the motive issue more complex than it needs to be. Any America-specific motive does not explain why the jihadis also attack Britain, France, India, Indonesia, etc, etc, etc. Kauffner (talk) 07:50, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Other Buildings/Businesses within the Same Distance from Ground Zero

Could someone verify the claims and photos on this blog? http://daryllang.com/blog/4421 218.166.192.84 (talk) 09:30, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Google Maps/Street View might be someplace to start. It includes labeled markers for businesses (though they are sometimes a teensy bit off on the exact locations). 64.184.253.134 (talk) 17:32, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Remember we can't add original research based on blog posts to the article. Fletcher (talk) 01:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

None of those places murdered 3,000+ Americans on 9/11. 75.150.245.242 (talk) 18:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

New poll

I am not a regular contributor here but just saw this new TIME poll that may improve the article more with a national view.--NortyNort (Holla) 13:28, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

New Title ?

Hey all,

I'm a little concerned about the title. It doesn't strike me that Park51 would pass WP:COMMONNAME. Two questions for the community;

1) Does anyone agree we need retitling?

2) Does anyone have suggestions for a new title?

Thanks all! NickCT (talk) 17:40, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that it needs a renaming because all of the more "straightforward" names are listed as redirects to this page, and each of those "straightforward" names has some problems. A straightforward name from the perspective of the Wikipedia user would be "Ground Zero mosque", but that would be an inappropriate name for the article (it's not at Ground Zero, but two blocks away, it's only partially a mosque, etc.) Likewise, Cordoba House would also be inappropriate (I changed the name from this myself) because the people who are sponsoring this project have stopped using this name to describe the project, in response to criticism of that name. Park51 is the only realistically neutral name for the page, because this is what the people promoting the project are calling it themselves. I fear if the name is changed in order to be more "straightforward", it would probably also be changed to something slanted and biased instead of respectful of the facts. Zachary Klaas (talk) 17:52, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

@Zachary Klaas - I appreciate your argument and agree with a lot of what you're saying. The issue is though, that your position might clash with WP:COMMONNAME. While I'd agree that "Ground Zero Mosque" might not be "accurate", if it is the most commonly used name, it is the correct name (as dictated by WP:COMMONNAME). I can only find a few RS referring to the site as Park51; hence this appears to be an uncommon name and should be changed.

Neutrality is less of a consideration in titling than is WP:COMMONNAME NickCT (talk) 18:27, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I disagree strenuously. If the article is entitled "Ground Zero Mosque", it empowers people who believe that a project partially including a mosque which is actually not located at Ground Zero is properly so called. People who log on to Wikipedia to get reasonably unbiased information on the building and the controversy will instead be subjected to an article which already delivers the right wing's view in its very title. If they type "Ground Zero Mosque" into the search box, they will get this article, so I think the spirit of WP:COMMONNAME is clearly observed - but it would be a huge victory for hyperconservative hypocrites if the actual article was retitled to fit their ideological biases. Zachary Klaas (talk) 18:35, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Naming this article "Ground Zero mosque" would be akin to renaming "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act" as "Obamacare" or renaming "Republican Party (United States)" as "The Party of No". In alll three cases, there's already a redirect, and that's plenty to send people searching using a colloquial/politicized name to the correct page. Newsboy85 (talk) 18:42, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

@Zachary Klaas - Again, I appreciate the argument. Trust me, I'm the last person to want to give ground to religous bigots using WP to WP:BATTLEGROUND. The fact remains though that WP:COMMONNAME explicity states that if "Ground Zero Mosque" is the name used in the majority of RS, the article should be titled "Ground Zero Mosque".

We should do a search engine test as called out by WP:COMMONNAME to determine the best title. Perhaps, if the most common name is "Ground Zero Mosque" we can reach compromise by making the first line of article something like "The Ground Zero Mosque, which is actually several blocks away from Ground Zero,.......".

As a personal note Zachary Klaas, while I appreciate your POV, and happen to mostly agree with your assessments, but your attitude seems a little WP:BATTLEGROUNDish. Perhaps you want to take it down a notch?

@Newsboy85 I think my notes to Klaas address some of your points. Additionally, you can't workaround WP:COMMONNAME with redirects. NickCT (talk) 18:47, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

You clearly can. I didn't even know the official name of Obamacare until I looked it up. If we're going to be citing policy, this seems like the perfect situation for WP:IAR Newsboy85 (talk) 18:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure Obamacare is a valid analogy. As far as I know, the term "Obamacare" is used solely in a pejorative fashion by critics of the program, and not by neutral RSs. In the case of "Ground Zero Mosque", I believe a number of mainstream sources uses this term.

While I respect WP:IAR, I think both the spirit and letter of WP:COMMONNAME would tell us to seek a more common name here. NickCT (talk) 19:34, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Calling it the "Ground Zero Mosque" is not workable. This term is more associated with critics of the mosque, and so it has POV problems. (E.g., this NYT article explicitly says it is called that by critics). This Salon article uses "Ground Zero Mosque" in scare quotes and associates the term with fear-mongering. Sources which are neutral or supportive of the project often say something like "mosque near ground zero", or describe it as a community center. Opinion is split; there is not currently any widespread, generally agreed upon name for the project. We can mention "Ground Zero Mosque" in the lede sentence, but should not adopt that term as our own. I would have preferred sticking with "Cordoba House" as the title, as that name is more widely known and does not have POV issues, even if it isn't the official name any longer. Fletcher (talk) 02:05, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's some google results - "Cordoba House" - 957 "Ground Zero Mosque" - 3,450 "Park51" - 1,140 "Monster Mosque" - 10

Frankly, while I appreciate there could be some POV issues with "Ground Zero Mosque", I still prefer it b/c

1) The POV issues don't seem overly serious. I mean, after all, it is a Mosque, and it has become notable because it is close to Ground Zero. Just b/c WP readers might mistakenly take the title to mean that the mosque is actually at ground zero doesn't seem to me sufficient grounds to say the title is unacceptable for POV issues. As I mentioned before, we can mitigate this issue by calling out in the first sentence that the mosque isn't actually at ground zero.

2) WP:COMMONNAME v. clearly points to "Ground Zero Mosque" as the appropriate name. I think the clear direction offered by WP:COMMONNAME trumps minor WP:NPOV concerns. NickCT (talk) 02:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

The POV issue goes both ways. Supporters have called it a "mosque" (at Ground Zero) to spin the debate into being about religious freedom, instead of victims' rights, architecture, and so on. Quigley (talk) 02:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

There's no need to "spin" it as being about religious freedom; it patently is about religious freedom – or more accurately religious intolerance, an anathema to religious freedom. That's why some of the same people opposing this project also manage to get themselves in a froth about a mosque in Staten Island, or a mosque in Tennessee, or a mosque in California, and probably a mosque at Point Barrow if anyone wanted to build one there. Fat&Happy (talk) 04:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

"The Cordoba House" search brings up 1,850 results for me. I don't think WP:COMMONAME is nearly as clear cut as you say, as there is no "single obvious common name". As I said (and linked), the project is labeled differently by opponents and supporters. Endorsing the title used more by opponents is a POV problem, even if it gets more google hits. COMMONNAME also says to avoid "ambiguous or inaccurate" names, and I think it's true that "Ground Zero Mosque" is ambiguous. If we were to consider "Mosque near Ground Zero", that term gets about 5,600 results. I would actually be ok with that, my main objection being that it sounds a little clunky. Fletcher (talk) 03:10, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not thrilled with Park51, but it's at least official. I strongly oppose renaming to Ground Zero mosque as completely POV. And we're warned not to put all that much stock in Google counts. This would be especially true with blogs hysterically pounding out the most attention-getting deprecatory name available.

BTW, as an afterthought I just googled Lower Manhattan Islamic Center. Not sure about your numbers for the othere; I'm guessing they're for "News" hits only. As a quoted phrase, I only got 4 hits, but without the quotes it was 2,750, many having "Lower Manhattan" and "Islamic Center" as separate phrases in the same sentence. Seems like an accurate, recognizable, NPOV alternative. Lower Manhattan mosque might also work, and is also more NPOV with fairly good accuracy. Fat&Happy (talk) 04:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that would satisfy NickCT (perhaps it would, but it's not a phrase particularly often used to describe the site). But it is NPOV and I'd accept it on that basis. Zachary Klaas (talk) 05:08, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

These just in, and possibly worth considering in this discussion:

• "AP Standards Center issues staff advisory on covering New York City mosque"
• "Palin to AP: It's 'Ground Zero mosque'"

Fat&Happy (talk) 05:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

The AP Standards Center - good guidance for us in terms of a proper NPOV title for the article. Sarah Palin - a participant in the controversy and pretty obviously POV. Zachary Klaas (talk) 05:59, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

@Fat&Happy - Re "The Cordoba House" search brings up 1,850 results for me." - You're searching The Cordoba House and not "Cordoba House". The former might give you news stories about a house in Cordoba. Lower Manhattan mosque doesn't seem very specific.

@All - Ok. I can see I'm not getting much traction here, so I'm going to drop it. Ultimately Park51 isn't a bad title, it's just not the correct title. I maintain that WP:COMMONNAME pretty clearly indicates that "Ground Zero Mosque" is correct name here. If there were blazenly obvious WP:NPOV issue with the title (as there would be with say "Monster Mosque") I wouldn't support it. However, it seems to me that the WP:NPOV concerns raised here are that certain editors simply don't like the POVs of those who dubbed the phrase, and hence don't want to use it. In my mind this equates to WP:BATTLEgrounding. Anyways, thanks for the discussion. I'll drop the point unless some other editors chime in in support.NickCT (talk) 14:19, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

s versus z

Just a quick note...in British English, "organisation" and "Islamisation" are spelled correctly in that form. In American English, these words are spelled with a "z". Please note that thus, these words are not spelled incorrectly on English Wikipedia and should not be "corrected". Zachary Klaas (talk) 18:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

MOS:TIES Fat&Happy (talk) 19:06, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

You are correct about this. My apologies. Enjoy this one because I think you're wrong about just about everything else. Zachary Klaas (talk) 01:02, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

"specious changes"

OK, Zachary Klaas, a step-by-step discussion of what you call "specious changes":

• Mayor Bloomberg – simply WP:SURNAME

Fine. Zachary Klaas (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

• hasn’t → hasn't – MOS:QUOTE; straight, not curly

Fine. Zachary Klaas (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

• expand range of words quoted (Nadler) – he said it all; avoids "scare quotes"

Nadler has since decided he could accept it wasn't a mosque (an update we need to make here), but this makes it look like he's still making this claim without nuance - what he is now saying is that the site has been used regularly for Muslim services, which the Pentagon spokesperson we've been quoting admits is true. Zachary Klaas (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

If you have a source saying Nadler revised his comments, and the revision is material, then maybe it should be worked in. For the part that's already there, the quotation marks are correctly placed. Fat&Happy (talk) 02:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

It's out there, but I'll tell you what - you show your good faith and find it yourself. If I post it, you'll come up with some reason it's irrelevant and delete it. Zachary Klaas (talk) 03:21, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

• "in fact" – your original deletion reason was specious; while nobody has explicitly denied it is an interfaith chapel, calling it a "mosque at the Pentagon" implicitly does so.

I stand by my objection to this. The use of this phrase makes it look like you're debunking some wayward soul who needs correcting. However, the alleged wayward souls have never denied that the chapel/mosque/synagogue/whatever it is also serves other faiths. It is used a great deal by Muslims, however - prayer sessions every weekday and a Friday service held every week and led by people who are in the employ of other mosques. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. For me, that means it's a mosque, but really this is a matter of what you want to call someplace that provides religious services for Muslims every day in the work week. Zachary Klaas (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

No, it is not a mosque. Mosques do not have holy water fonts installed at the doorways and a Bible under each seat. If you wanted to insist it is faith-specific, that better describes a Christian church than a mosque. But it's not. In fact, It's an interfaith chapel, for a reason closely related ito why there is a right to build Park51 – the government can't favor one religion over another. Fat&Happy (talk) 02:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I clearly don't want to say the site is faith-specific...read what I said above, that's a clear misrepresentation of what I said. I want to say that the room gets considerable use by Muslims, as much as an actual mosque would get. The actual dictionary definition of mosque is a "place of prostration". That is, it's a place that Muslims congregate to pray. By that definition, it is a mosque. But if people want to suggest the cases are different because one's a non-denominational site used by other faiths, fine. Nadler conceded that, and so will I. For me (and probably for others, if this article would let them hear about it), the relevant point is that it is a site used every single day of the work week for the kinds of Muslim religious practices generally performed in a mosque. Zachary Klaas (talk) 03:32, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

• sentence removal (Ramadan services) – the fact that 100 people (out of 26,000 Pentagon workers) attended a particular service three years ago has no relevance to the current controversy, nor has any correlation been drawn by reliable sources. This was random synthesis.

What percentage of the Muslim employees at the Pentagon is it? 100 people is a lot to fill a small chapel. Maybe it's not so small. Zachary Klaas (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

There is still no reliably sourced correlation between that attendance number (once) and Park51. Fat&Happy (talk) 02:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

There can't be. There is as yet no mosque at Park51. It's a planned mosque. It's supposed to accommodate 1000-2000 people, according to those proposing the project. However, according to those same people, it's supposed to be a site of interfaith activities as well, and open to non-Muslims. You can't pick and choose which of those things you're going to deem relevant. Zachary Klaas (talk) 03:32, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

• insertion ("from a local mosque") – says the same thing as "Additionally, according to the same army spokesperson [synthesis], the imams who conduct services every single Friday at the Pentagon come 'from a local mosque'", without giving undue weight to a trivial factoid. It is clear from the article that only two Christian denominations are represented there by military chaplains. All others rely on local clergy.

I've already had it deleted that many mosques do not have Friday services and the ones that do are Friday Mosques, which are fairly specialized mosques. This is corroborated on the foregoing link. But apparently that's not enough to verify that this "non-mosque" acts an awful lot like the more important of the "real mosques" do. So I was trying to comply with the criticism by pointing out that the imams are drawn from places that actually are mosques, to establish that the chapel/whatever it is does work characteristic of a mosque. You want to tell me what would convince you that this isn't just a room that Muslims like to have random prayers in, but a very organized religious site? What would that be? Because it is, and that needs to be in this article. Zachary Klaas (talk) 01:32, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Nothing would convince me that's what it is, because that's not what it is. Other religions use the space on a regular basis also. If a rabbi comes in to lead a service, the room does not suddenly become a synagogue. If a Catholic mass is held there, it is still not a cathedral. Nor is it a Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh temple, even though all those religions must rely on outside religious leaders for their services. Fat&Happy (talk) 02:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

This is merely semantics. You can't say the NYC mosque is dangerous because imams with anti-America ideas might use it to subvert the country, but the Pentagon chapel, with imams coming from local mosques, somehow does not present the same risks. Zachary Klaas (talk) 03:32, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

• "A spokesperson for the Army was not aware of any protests" → "According to Pentagon officials, ... have [never] protested" – a stronger affirmation of the protest-free nature of the Pentagon facility. Isn't that what you want?

I want that George W. Bush was president and allowed Muslim services to be repeatedly held in the Pentagon, so Republicans will stop slagging Obama with their noxious claims. It's true, it's easily documented, and it is pointedly not beside the point. Zachary Klaas (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

See, we obviously have different agendas here – I want to produce a factual, NPOV article properly reflecting the different points of view (though I acknowledge a possible tendency to leave opposition points to be added by the opposition); you seem to be searching for weapons with which to bludgeon Republicans and conservatives. I suggest looking into setting up a blog. Fat&Happy (talk) 02:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

No, I want the factual, NPOV article. You want the conservative talking points to make it into the article and opposing views to be undercut via the bad-faith invocation of WP: standards. Zachary Klaas (talk) 03:32, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

• "9/11 families or others, including conservative activists" → "9/11 families or members of the military" – generally Wikipedia prefers to use statements reflecting what the sources actually say, whether or not the result is to "protect conservatives from being embarrassed by the facts"

The source said no one did. That includes conservative activists. It is the lack of protest by conservative activists that constitutes the issue of notability here. They complain about the NYC site, but can't be bothered to complain about a nearly exactly analogous case at the other Ground Zero site. Zachary Klaas (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

No. The source(s) did not say "no one did". One source referred to 9/11 families and Pentagon employees; the other said the military or 9/11 families, the option I included since it was from the stronger denial source, as shown above. Fat&Happy (talk) 02:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

That spokesperson is on record saying he received "no complaints". Again, look for it. You'll find it. If you're really in good faith, you'll find that source in short order. Whether you'll ignore it or not is up to you. Zachary Klaas (talk) 03:32, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Fat&Happy (talk) 20:05, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

These look like reasonable edits. I think the parallel to the Pentagon mosque/chapel/whatever-it-is can stay, but we can't let it stray off topic or allow synthesis to creep in. Fletcher (talk) 22:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Please, someone help me out here. Zachary Klaas (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

The point-by-point above is getting unwieldy. The problem is, you seem to consider it your job – and Wikipedia's job – to put down all the opponents of the project, refute all their talking points, and prove they're hypocrites. I really don't think that's Wikipedia's mandate. The paragraph as I last left it makes ir perfectly clear to all but the brain-dead that the chapel area in the Pentagon is used for daily and Friday services by Muslims, led in the major Friday services by outside imams, and has been doing so since 2002 without any official objection. It does not say, nor can we prove, that, e.g., Newt Gingrich never gave a speech critical of it's accommodation of Muslim beliefs to some group of 35 supporters in Podunk. In fact, IIRC (I'm too tired to verify), it the source quotes one 9/11 family member as saying he doesn't really like it, but he can live with it, unlike the Lower Manhattan building, because it's a non-denominational area open to everybody; we could put that in, but it sort of kills your hypocrite/inconsistent goal. Fat&Happy (talk) 05:10, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Go ahead and put that in. It's something someone said, reported in a RS, go for it. Of course, downtown New York is also a non-denominational area where other churches are permitted (and do exist), so if you're really planning on being fair, you should also put in that point. It's a simple matter to verify there are other churches in the area. Or do you declare that tangential and only publish the conservative talking point, as usual? Zachary Klaas (talk) 05:24, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Word describing the usage of 'ground zero mosque'

It keeps getting edited; usually between "Incorrectly referred to as the Ground Zero Mosque" or the current status of simply mentioning it's been called that. I've seen about 90 different adverbs used to describe it's usage.

Two things; 1) It's not "incorrect" at all. The building was directly destroyed by an airplane on 9/11. To many, many, many interpretations, that makes the building itself "ground zero" 2) Considering the controversy over that name, not mentioning that it's use is heavily objected to by some doesn't paint the full picture.

Therefor, I propose that the current sentence "Sometimes referred to by the media as the ground zero mosque" read "Sometimes controversially referred to by the media as the ground zero mosque". It could be accompanied by links not only to the term being used, but a link of someone arguing for the name usage and another arguing it's inaccurate -- this would serve to show that it is, indeed, a point of contention. I think the word controversial is the best one, because regardless of personal opinion what virtually 100% of us can all agree on is that there is, indeed, controversy and contention over whether or not that term is accurate. It's as unbiased as they come. 99.22.51.202 (talk) 00:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

It's too wordy. It's fine to say "sometimes referred to as the "Ground Zero mosque". The lede sentence should be neutral and straightforward; we don't need to keep adding verbiage to try to please everyone. Even if it is controversial, or incorrect, to call it the Ground Zero Mosque, it is still called that by some sources. Details of the naming can be discussed later in the article.Fletcher (talk) 01:20, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm okay with the "sometimes referred to as..." solution to this. It is called that, for whatever reason. The fact that this is a disputed term, however, means it must not be the title of the entire article. It can be in the article, though. Zachary Klaas (talk) 01:34, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd prefer to keep "controversially", which it clearly is, and if we are looking for cuts drop "by the media", since it's actually by some of the media and some (most?) opponents, but saying that is probably POV and would be a major sourcing problem. Fat&Happy (talk) 01:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree the name is controversial; I just don't see the need to say so in the lede. I left it in, but did take out "in the media." Fletcher (talk) 02:22, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm also okay with the "sometimes referred to as..." solution to this. 58 million times qualifies it. If people want to discuss in the body any controversy, that's fine as well, but we don't need to start our POV editing so early. It's factual.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:11, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Let's see. The Associated Press says not to use the term because it's not precisely accurate. Sarah Palin blasts them for the decision. It's controversial, and for that matter it's inaccurate, and those are facts. Saying "inaccurate" may be a bit picky for the lead, but "controversial" is not POV, it's simply true. And now, thanks to Ms Palin, it's even easily sourced. Fat&Happy (talk) 06:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I do have a bit of an attitude

I've been a bit combative on here, perhaps a bit WP:BATTLEGROUND-ish...on the other hand, I feel it necessary because WP:WIKILAWYERING is killing this article.

In my opinion, we have a responsibility to tell the truth. Wikipedia, unfortunately, often loses credibility in people's eyes because false and misleading statements end up being published because Wikilawyers get those statements off on a technicality.

We have no better example of this than the present article. People are discussing putting a misleading and politically loaded name at the top of the article, rather than a clearly neutral name, because the letter (not the spirit) of some Wikirule requires it. Statements that are uncontested by any party and massively evident are deleted from the article when there's no specific source ("Question: How many Wikipedians does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Answer: None, no reputable source has verified the existence of the lightbulb.") When a reputable source does speak to the issue, however, the evidence is rejected if the article happened to generally be about another topic, and the charge is cherry-picking and designing a WP:COATRACK. Obvious connections between this article's topic, the Park51 project mosque, where people will pray and hold religious services, and the Pentagon's quasi-mosque chapel, where people have been praying and holding religious services, are ruled "tangential", even though reputable sources are now publishing articles on the topic explicitly comparing the two as directly analogous cases.

It's Wikilawyering if you just spray rules at people without explaining what you would accept as evidence. The interesting thing about these exchanges is the one thing people have not told me is "that's not true". I'm getting lots of "you can't put that in", but no complaints of "what you've written is false". Why is that? Zachary Klaas (talk) 03:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

You should closely review the examples given at WP:SYN: even if you provide factual, reliably sourced statements, you can still be adding original research if you use them to imply a conclusion that is not presented in those sources. You should be ok if the conclusion is actually stated in the source(s). The Pentagon issue is, however, tangential: the Pentagon is not the subject of this article. I encourage you to keep any discussion of the Pentagon succinct, as the article is already quite long. Fletcher (talk) 11:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

source — goethean ॐ 12:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Goethean, you fail to grasp what game these guys are playing. It's "tangential" because they don't like the conclusion, not because the conclusion isn't in the source. :D The entire reason anyone is interested in whether there is a "mosque at the Pentagon" is because it's directly analogous to the NYC mosque. This fact is laughingly obvious, but because they want to shield the conservatives, they pretend they can't see it, and that it doesn't motivate each and every one of the recent articles published on the topic. The only thing that would probably satisfy them is a journalist actually saying "I wrote this article because these cases are obviously analogous", at which point they would call it an opinion article and ignore it for that reason. We need to play more hardball here - this is sophistry to screen out facts, not concern for due Wikipedia process. Zachary Klaas (talk) 15:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and look, the source you've posted, Goethean, says that the Pentagon received "no complaints" about Muslim services being held regularly at the Pentagon. Not just "no complaints from 9/11 families and the military", but "no complaints". At all. Therefore my "synthesis" conclusion from earlier on that this included no complaints from conservative activists has been vindicated. Any apologies forthcoming about that from the people who said I was reading in between the lines? If not, what, pray tell, would the reason for eliminating this observation this time be? Zachary Klaas (talk) 15:38, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Like the evil conservative activists, you fail to assume good faith. Fletcher (talk) 17:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, some clarification about what makes a "mosque"

This article seems to respond quite well to our discussions about what makes something a mosque. Like most of you, the article concludes that the Pentagon site is not a mosque - but unlike any of you, it cites a Muslim religious scholar who defines what needs to be present for the term "mosque" to be appropriate. The scholar argues that it must be a site where people pray five times a day...at the Pentagon prayer sessions are "only" held one time a day (I put that in quotes to illustrate my personal opinion that this is actually a lot of times, but I digress.) At any rate, this undercuts my earlier-expressed view that in some sense the use of the term might be appropriate. If we go by this definition, it is not. However, the article also points out that the chapel could be referred to as a kind of a "sacred space" in the Islamic tradition known as the "mussallaah". This supports my earlier-expressed view that the chapel is more than just someplace Muslims are allowed to pray if they want to - it's someplace used repeatedly for prayer purposes, someplace used when one "does not have access to a mosque", and that's what qualifies it as a "mussallaah". The argument here is it's someplace that serves as a substitute for a mosque, but is not itself a mosque.

I would like to add this to the article. I'm writing about it here first because I suspect it will be immediately deleted because it ultimately makes the point that Muslims have had a substantial religious presence in the chapel, analogous to that it would have at the NYC mosque. But I think it should be in the article somehow. Suggestions about wording are welcome. Zachary Klaas (talk) 06:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)