Talk:Parkour

Injuries...

Whoever edited this: Parkour has sometimes received concerns for its health issues due to large drops.

I appreciate it. I delete the part about Many traceurs being injured from large drops as there is absolutely no evidence to back this claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Designer1993 (talk • contribs) 17:19, 12 March 2009 (UTC) Designer1993 (talk) 16:30, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem, I removed it again. Carlosguitar ^{(Yes Executor?)} 12:53, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Sport / no sport?

"It is often mis-categorized as a sport"

I don't think referring to Parkour as a sport is wrong. It might be the same as going for a ride with your bicycle or just jogging. Most of the cyclicsts and joggers never participate in a competition and are not interested in it at all. For them it is just about working for their personal fitness - like traceurs do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.169.100.59 (talk) 09:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC) bar camp it is open to opinion but most of the top traceurs have stated it is not a sport —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.30.8.59 (talk) 17:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC) although i have just began to study this, it seems more like a martial art than a sport. not to mention that the definition of "sport" usually involve competition.(this is a newbies view) It may or may not be a sport, but under no circumstances is it a martial art. There are moves in the discipline that came from martial arts (i.e. the diving roll), but it is NOT a martial art itself.

Caption under Danny Pic

It refers to Daniel Ilabaca as a Traceur, when the man in question is a Free Runner. You wouldn't put a caption under David Beckham saying "Tennis Player" would you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.64.143 (talk) 22:44, 5 April 2009 (UTC) bar camp i think it is harder then most sports —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.171.148 (talk) 23:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Injuries

Injuries, sometimes permanent, from jumping, twisting and falling are common.

There is absolutely no evidence to back this up and the cited source is irrelevant as it is not a study conducted by medical personnel. I'm removing it. Designer1993 (talk) 16:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, there is not a policy or guideline that demands such a statement be sourced to "a study conducted by medical personnel." Rather, Wikipedia's policies demand that it cite a reliable source. Comments before I resore this? (Injuries, sometimes permanent, from jumping, twisting and falling are common.<ref>Naimi, Shahla. 26 March 2009, ''Fairfield County Weekly'', "[http://www.fairfieldweekly.com/article.cfm?aid=12248 Blood In, Blood Out. Want to try parkour? Then get ready to sacrifice your body.]". Accessed 6 April 2009.</ref>) - SummerPhD (talk) 17:09, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps not. I wouldn't consider this to be reliable source however because the article states the Traceur in question had to visit the emergency room 28 times. The Traceur himself posted a comment on the article stating that the visits to the emergency room were entirely unrelated to Parkour. Designer1993 (talk) 17:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Because someone (who could be anyone) claiming to be the person in the article claims the emergency room visits were unrelated to Parkour does not establish anything other than, well, that someone (who could be anyone) claiming to be the person in the article claims the emergency room visits were unrelated to Parkour.

Whether or not something is a reliable source is not governed by one person's claim they misinterpreted one detail. In any case, if the dismiss the ER visits, we're left with the following: "They're willing to pay their dues in blood from the slaps against the pavement. And sprained ankles from vaulting and twisting to get from one location to another? It happens. More experienced traceurs like Ninja don't seem to mind the bleeding much. Or the pain, for that matter. Ninja — whose right hand is permanently damaged from the common parkour injury of pavement slapping — has seen the emergency room 28 times." That still supports the piece that was removed.

Also, we have injuries described in many of the sources already in the article. We have "death defying leaps"[1], "the ones who aren't smart about it, start getting hurt"[2], parkour-online discusses injuries more than once[3][4][5], "Separated my shoulder...I clipped a foot and fell into the gap and hit the wall. At first, I thought I broke my collarbone. I also cut my head. I drove home using one arm." and "The last guy who did that hit his face...Bit through his lip." and "he landed hard and banged his shin...His hands were scraped and bleeding"[6], "I've split a shin" and "If you fall, you just learn from it - even breaking my legs wouldn't stop me" and "Free running can be seriously dangerous. We would advise against this activity" and "Putting yourself at risk of breaking a limb or worse is not a good idea and it puts emergency services under unnecessary strain"[7], "a possible connection between Fu's death and parkour"[8], "You do fall and you do get a few bumps and bruises"[9], "they're lucky they didn't kill themselves" and "twisted ankles and nasty scrapes" and "Spoon misjudges, sending broken glass cascading down a stairwell on the other side of the window, and falls about eight feet to the ground...administering first aid and calling 911. As they wait for the ambulance...holding his arm in a tightly wrapped bloody T-shirt...it looks like he has cut a tendon in his wrist...He is later flown home to Phoenix for surgery

"[10]... That's from the first 30 sources. I'm sure there were others, but a lot of the source links are broken.

Back to the point at hand. Clearly parkour does often lead to injuries. How do we want to work that in? - SummerPhD (talk) 19:27, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for working with me on this SummerPhD.

Thanks for linking me to all those articles. How about we put this in instead?

Parkour is a considerably dangerous activity and injuries are fairly common due to incorrect technique (especially among novices).

Feel free to tweak that as you see fit. I appreciate it thanks! Designer1993 (talk) 20:01, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Here's my tweak: "Parkour is a considerably dangerous activity and injuries are fairly common." Granted, "fairly common" is POV, but I can live with it. Yes, "incorrect technique" can certainly lead to injury in any sport (or similar activity). However, I see nothing to indicate that "correct technique" exists in any objective way (i.e., there is no central parkour authority to state "X is correct technique, Y is not". Also, there is no indication that such technique is proof against injuries. (Somewhere out there, there is someone willing to argue, essentially, "If it causes injury, it is not correct technique.") Next, novices amy or may not be more prone to injuries. Maybe novices don't stop when they should, increasing injury risk. Or maybe novices are more apt to doubt their abilities and not try that risky leap... Or both. Or neither. Who knows? - SummerPhD (talk) 12:34, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I put fairly common because I am thinking about all the other sports (i.e. skateboarding, football) that have a considerably larger injury count (although probably because Parkour isn't as widespread.)

Thanks for your help on this. Designer1993 (talk) 21:56, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

"Back to the point at hand. Clearly parkour does often lead to injuries. How do we want to work that in? - SummerPhD"

Simple. Like any Wikipedia article, we can add that in when we have a good citation. The citation you give from Fairfield County Weekly is not primarily bad because the source is unreliable, but because it is anecdotal - it is based on the experience of one person. Go read Wikipedia:Verifiability. For example "the source cited must clearly support the information as it is presented in the article." This means if you want to use that citation, you need to say something like "one traceur called X has had numerous visits to the emergency room". Which shows just how useless a citation it is. Also "the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material", thus I am reverting your revert. All the citations you give about are anecdotal. With anecdotal evidence, the most you can say is "Parkour is dangerous for some people", which would probably get removed anyway for being weasely and redundant. If you want to add something about how Parkour is dangerous in general then you need some evidence to back that up - ie. some kind of controlled study of many traceurs. ··gracefool☺ 03:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Cult status?

There's a lot out there that Parkour has many similarities to the dictionary definitive 'cult'. Perhaps something along these lines could be added in by someone with more prose skill than I? 114.76.205.101 (talk) 11:19, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't say cult. Subculture moreso. -Kyle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.47.91.237 (talk) 17:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd probably call it a "fitness trend" more than a cult. One that as it gains acceptance fades into the greater fitness ecosystem as just another way to stay in shape. Right now it's a fad because of all the popularity and attention it's gained (mostly because the mainstream has just found out about it from films like Casino Royale). Expect to see lots of opportunistic capitalization of it (exercise DVDs, classes, etc) similar to the jazzercising and step aerobics fads before it. True, it does have a following and "movement" behind it, but these are early days and you will always have enthusiasts in these things trying to elevate it to the level of some kind of new-age enlightenment. ThePenciler (talk) 18:34, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Freerunning

I believe the terms Freerunning and Parkour in the '7.1 Freerunning' Section of the aritcles are swapped. I.e. parkour embodies complete freedom of movement and freerunning is a discipline that encourages efficiency instead of the other way around as stated in the article. I would edit the article directly, however, I know that my knowledge on this subject might be rather limited and would just like to clarify first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.7.178.26 (talk) 12:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course, there is then also the issue that this article (part of it at least) says they are the same, but the Free running article says they are different. Mark Hurd (talk) 05:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for this being a few months late, but I just stumbled across this and would like to clarify. The founders of parkour generally accept and encourage the use of "Freerunning" and "Parkour" interchangeably but much of the subculture recognizes the difference between them--namely, Parkour embodies efficiency and Freerunning is total freedom of movement, with flairs added on for expression or aesthetic purposes. Soo...the post 2 above this one (8 June 09) is misinformed. Anonymous Traceur, PK/FR practitioner of 7 years 04:08, 19 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.40.53.1 (talk)

I am not going to edit the article myself, I am austrian and my english isnt proficient enough. I practise Parkour for 10 years now, trained with all the original people, Belle, Foucan etc.. but since wikipedia likes facts, I want to show you. On his new site, freerunningtv.com , Seb Foucan, the founder of Freerunning, clearly states that there IS a difference between Parkour and Freerunning, you can go there, watch by yourself and then someone please edit this article, because its just wrong. I would do it myself but as said, a native english speaker should do this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.231.68 (talk) 17:18, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

AfD for Parkour in popular culture

The popular culture spin-off is up for deletion again, and one of the popular suggestions is a merge to this page. --Explodicle (T/C) 15:42, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Arnim Dahl, Gizmo

Parkour has been around a long time, as seen in the film Gizmo Before David Bell there was German stuntman Arnim Dahl, he's in the German Wikipedia. --68.45.218.70 (talk) 00:55, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Parkour/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

Tagged with needing rewrite from May 2009. Verification criteria: unsourced statements from July 2008, October 2008, September 2009 and November 2009 Tom B (talk) 01:38, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Still has same problems, delist Tom B (talk) 16:00, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Parkour video parody?

I seem to remember some kind of parody, maybe from SNL or someone on Funny or Die, where one of the sequences was the participants playing leapfrog and doing awkward movement and activity as part of their parkour demonstration video. Does anybody know what I'm talking about? ThePenciler (talk) 18:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

A parody of parkour was certainly in the cold open of The Office (U.S._TV_series), Season 6, episode 1 where the Michael, Dwight, and Andy announced each graceless mess of a move (including leapfrog) with a hearty shout of "Parkour!" --Lexein (talk) 19:04, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Parkour in The Unit?

Just watched The Unit Season 4, Episode 15. Would the jumps etc by the new recruit they are testing considered Parkour? Later on he's seen doing more during a foot chase in .ph. 125.238.169.234 (talk) 17:30, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

This page is for discussing improvements to the article, not discussing parkour (Wikipedia is not a forum). General questions should go to the Wikipedia:Reference desk. --Explodicle (T/C) 18:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Explodicle, the slap-down isn't necessary. This person is simply asking for clarification, so that the episode of "The Wire" might be included in the segment on parkour in popular culture.174.65.1.119 (talk) 05:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Influential people in parkour

Please remember as you edit this article that there are many influential people around the world that contribute to parkour. David Belle, the Yamakasi (now Majestic Force) (France), Parkour Generations (UK), Parkour Visions (USA, Washington), Overflux (USA, Southeast), American Parkour (USA) -- all of these heavy influences and more contribute to the ideas that form parkour around the world.

Many of these people have opposing views on subjects in Parkour, and Wikipedia's policy of neutrality must be applied where necessary. Dechols (talk) 17:13, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

hmmmm... no. Your UK and US groups are irrelevant. Parkour is absolutely, utterly, entirely French. You anglophones have hopscotch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.178.123 (talk) 08:44, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Evasion Technique?

I have recently heard it claimed that Parkour is for "evasion" and that it's the art of running away, with the goal being to run away from aggressors. That it is "designed as an escape form" as someone told me. Is there any validity in this? No where in the article does it use the words evade or evasion, as far as I can see. -- Bonkalicious (talk) 22:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

David Belles father survived the war because he could run away. So a big part of parkours history lies in there. But then he also saved many lifes by reaching people when he was working as a firefighter, so thats a part of it too. Read in the "Freerunning" part of this article, there you will see the full quotation of the PAWA release adressing this. "escape and reach". So next time you read an article, dont look only for the perfect english words "evasion" but keep in mind that parkour comes from french kids that dropped school and live in the ghetto, so dont expect perfect hollywood style press releases, but better look for meaning ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.231.68 (talk) 17:23, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Displacement

I'm going to change the translation of "l'art du déplacement". Déplacement in French can be used as we use displacement in English. However, the meaning of displacement in English is not the same as the meaning that's intended in "l'art du déplacement". Displacement in English means removing or expelling something out of its previous place. Look it up. The French word has a broader meaning. Here it means movement. More specifically, it means moving from one place to another, but we don't have an exact word for that in English. In French you can say "Je me suis déplacé chez lui" = "I went over to his house" (this is the sense in "l'art du déplacement") but you can't say in English "I displaced myself over to his house".

So, anyway, I'm going to change it to "the art of movement". If you don't like this, feel free to change it to something else. However, I think it's not a good idea just to revert it because "the art of displacement" is bad English and doesn't give a true sense of what they mean in French. More clumsily you'd call it "the art of getting from one place to another". --Mujokan (talk) 00:30, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Formatting

• Date format: It's a mix of YYYY-MM-DD and M, d, YYYY - any objections to me conforming them all to YYYY-MM-DD?
• Citation author format: the {{cite web}} "standard" is Last, First. Any objection to me switching all over to that?

--Lexein (talk) 16:09, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

On August 10 or so, I'll be switching formats per the above. --Lexein (talk) 06:19, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

No problem, but I think that there is some source which have only the year to date. Carlosguitar ^{(Yes Executor?)} 14:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Right - just seeking consistent long dates and author names. There is policy WP:CITEHOW against changing format en masse, so leaving time for discussion here first. --Lexein (talk) 18:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

end of opening section

What does "Most freerunners are male." have to do with the article? Tyler John (talk) 03:26, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Not much - this should either be expanded to reflect actual RS statistics or deleted until such a source is available. --Lexein (talk) 06:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Nothing at all!!!

--Masterlink12345 (talk) 23:51, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

not that efficient

The definition of parkour is given as movement that is efficiently navigating a landscape. Well, from what I can see from many parkour videos, the method of navigation is not particularly efficient. Rather, the attempt is at acrobatic display which is NOT necessarily efficient. Often, instead of flipping and jumping, simply sliding down or just dropping down is more efficient, though that means it involves no acrobatic display skills.

I think parkour is much less about efficient movement and more about a display for a spectator. Without a spectator, parkour is nothing. Parkour is a lot of drawing someone else's attention to one's ego. It's not too much more than that. Parkour demands spectators and it is the only way in which it redeems itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.5.48.135 (talk) 04:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

That's a difference between parkour and freerunning. ··gracefool☺ 22:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Parkour is more efficient. It is more than jumping down from places.... If you are looking at your path and see a set of stairs 2 small buildings and a drop, you can walk up the steps go around the 2 small builds and then just fall straight down. However, if you do that, walking up the steps and around the builds is slower than just jumping/climbing around/over them and falling straight down in some cases will compact your spine and you could injure yourself forever. If you jump from say, 15 feet up and fall, some people may not get hurt but some people would and if they were using parkour, they would roll instead of just falling straight down. The proper roll released about 60% of your downward force. This means that you really only hit with about 40% of the initial force so you are able to continue running. In the case of the office's parody of it, no, it's not efficient. In the case of its intended purpose? It's pretty efficient. IMHO [Steve] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.111.204.98 (talk) 13:56, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Notability

Is this subject really notable? I appreciate that a few people are really into it, but it's a very long article for a subject which few people in the English speaking world have even heard of. --Ef80 (talk) 01:49, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

It seems that with 133000 hits for this article in October alone, there are more than a few people in the English-speaking world who know about the subject. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 04:46, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Removed content from the Videogame section

Most of the stuff there is both fancruft and unrelated to the topic. I understand there is a minority who's really passionate about parkour, but come on! Not every guy running and jumping over walls is practicing parkour. In the case of videogames, unless their creators actively mention parkour, you're doing OR by claiming it's there.

Here is a list of games where I suspect the claim is OR or unsupported:

• Tomb Raider: Lara jumps and runs. But where does she claim to be doing parkour?
• Prince of Persia: the Prince jumps and runs a lot, but he doesn't even do additional acrobatics in the old 2D games. Do the creators claim it's parkour?
• Splinter Cell: I doubt Third Echelon agents are trained in parkour. The game doesn't claim they are. They are just very agile.
• Flashback: similar to Prince of Persia. It's an even worse example, since there is no wall-running or backflips or anything like in the latest PoP games.
• The Hunter from L4D: OH, COME ON! The guy wears a hoodie and jumps! Where is the parkour in that?

I removed all these instances. Please only add them again if the author specifically claims it's parkour-based, and please avoid OR. 201.216.245.25 (talk) 21:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC)