- Discussion du Projet:Canada (Français)
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I note that the two articles are entitled Quebec independence referendum, 1980 and Quebec independence referendum, 1995. Both appear to have been moved, without discussion, in May 2009 from Quebec referendum, 1980 and Quebec referendum, 1995 respectively. Apologies if there was a substantive discussion - I just can't seem to find it (the editor who made the moves, User:SeNeKa, moved a number of referendum articles, pertaining to places such as Ukraine and Greece, around the same time). Given that neither referendum question mentioned the actual word "independence", and that there was (and is) considerable debate over what was meant by the "sovereignty-association" (1980) and "sovereignty, with optional partnership" (1995) proposed in two referendums, it strikes me that the older article names were more appropriate. Mind you, nobody seems to have said boo about the two moves in the year and a half since. As I said, maybe I missed the move discussion, or maybe there is something I am missing. Thoughts? --Skeezix1000 (talk) 21:45, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree these are bad moves. They should be reverted. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 12:01, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed, per Skeezix1000's analysis. PKT(alk) 13:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I also agree, we should revert the moves. If there is opposition, a more extensive discussion can be had. "Independence" was quite carefully danced around. Franamax (talk) 01:30, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I will place notes on the talk pages of both articles, directing them to this centralized discussion, to see if there are any other opinions on the matter. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:14, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I do not really mind the title, so long as the articles themselves state the facts. The 1980 referendum asked Quebecers if, yes or no, they would give the Quebec government the mandate to negotiate a "New Partnership Between Equals: Sovereignty-Association". The result of that negotiation would have been the object of a second referendum. The 1995 referendum was not about a mandate to negotiate, it was about achieving sovereignty, whether the proposed partnership with Canada succeeds or not. -- Mathieugp (talk) 14:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, but that's the whole point. Neither explicitly addressed the issue of independence. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 18:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The articles were moved without benefit of a consensus from an RM discussion, so they should be reverted. Also, they're more commonly known as referendums. Besides, it's difficult to understand what the referendums were about, due to their cumbersome garbled 'questions' to voters. GoodDay (talk) 19:30, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Given the feedback, both articles have been moved back to their original titles. Thanks for the input. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 16:30, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
this image from this page seems to allow image downloading, by anyone, and no restriction is noted. I would like to crop and upload to display in the article Kathy Dunderdale. Acceptable? NorthernThunder (talk) 07:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the link on the bottom of the page "Important Notices", see the Commercial Reproduction section, indicates that, as it is a living person, it can't be used. Wikipedia:Image use policy#Adding images says "Images which are listed as for non-commercial use only, by permission, or which restrict derivatives are unsuitable for Wikipedia and will be deleted on sight, unless they are used under fair use." and of course a living person's image can't be used under a fair use claim. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 10:51, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You might want to contact the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. There is a good picture here but the wording at the bottom of the page ("No unauthorized copying or redeployment permitted.") seems to conflict with the wording at Disclaimer/Copyright/Privacy Statement. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 11:07, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I am growing a very deep contempt for these restrictive copyright laws. NorthernThunder (talk) 12:02, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
With the exception of Nunavut, which I just changed back to 2006 figures, all of the provinces/territories infoboxes are using population estimates from StatCan for 2009/2010. I had assumed that Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Canada-related articles)#Population would apply and the infobox should use the 2006 census figures. However, after reading it the guide only talks about municipalities. So I was wondering if there is a consensus as to what population figures should be in the provincial/territorial infoboxes? I would think that they should be the same as the municipalities and use the 2006 figures with estimates in the body. If the latest estimates are preferred in the infobox then they should be consistent and indicate, like Alberta, that they are estimates rather than like Ontario. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 12:22, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I think we should be using all consistent 2006 figures, with later estimates explained in the text. It's a consistent presentation and within approx. a year we will have the latest and greatest (with all-new totally butchered voluntary long-form statistics, but that's a different issue). The Census will still be (relatively) impeccably reliable for population stats - and it is the only reference point for when federal/provincial/municipal estimates vary. Franamax (talk) 12:57, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Agree with Franamax, and WP:CANSTYLE should be adjusted accordingly. I believe that WP:CANSTYLE only refers to municipalities because people screwing with local population counts has always been a problem, but the same principles should apply to provinces and territories as well. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 19:03, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to note provinces have their own statistics data, StatsCan is not the only official source, and the provinces seem to produce annual updates/estimates - I haven't looked at StatsBC yet, not sure there's even an article; I htink it's a branch of the Ministry of Economic Development and Small Business....whatever it's called since the last series of cabinet shuffles.Skookum1 (talk) 20:28, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Those provinces that do produce the stats could be included in the demographics section of the article. That way the infoboxes for municipalities/provinces would be consistent. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 22:18, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Just asking idly and indenting at random, do the various infoboxes have available fields for "latest_pop_est" and "latest_pop_ref" or such-like? For fast growing/shrinking populated entities, we would just then need a hierarchy for whose latest estimate rules the roost. Franamax (talk) 05:42, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- {{Infobox settlement}} has "population_est" and "pop_est_as_of" but {{Infobox province or territory of Canada}} does not appear to have anything like that. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 10:21, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Upon first review of this discussion, I was all for it. Thinking more about it, I'm not so sure.
The difference between municipalities and their larger levels of geography (provinces/territories and census metropolitan areas where applicable) is that Statistics Canada actually publishes intercensal estimates on a regular basis for all provinces/territories and all CMAs using a consistent methodology for both levels of geography. I've yet to see intercensal estimates published by StatCan for all municipalities (census subdivisions) in Canada. I'm not certain they even publish estimates for the larger municipalities. Perhaps this is why WP:CANSTYLE#Population was exclusive to municipalities, since a consistent StatCan baseline (intercensal estimates) could be used to maintain consistency among all provinces/territories, but not municipalities (this may be the argument of those that could potentially oppose removal of latest estimates in favour of the 2006 census counts when it comes time to implement what comes out of this discussion on each provincial/territorial article).
I am not opposed to changing provincial/territorial infoboxes back to the latest official census counts. However, there may be a different solution that could resolve this so that both can coexist in the infoboxes, given the amount of controversy that could ensue. A potential solution could be revising the {{Infobox province or territory of Canada}} template to include "population_est" and "pop_est_as_of" parameters like the {{Infobox settlement}} template. Hwy43 (talk) 05:56, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Personally, I despise the convention to retain data that is now well over five years old in an encyclopedia that prides itself on being up to date. While retaining the last census data does make sense, there is absolutely no reason why we should not be including the current populations, either the most latest estimate, or in the case of many cities in Alberta that do full, annual censuses, their official figures. Anything that gets us away from relying so heavily on such ancient and , frankly, irrelevant data is a good idea. Resolute 06:01, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- 2006 isn't over five years. I am going to be the bearer of bad news, when I mention that when the 2011 census data comes out later this year, there will be a lot of articles to update? 117Avenue (talk) 06:20, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Editors should be encouraged to update the encyclopedia, especially if doing so is done by replacing the references from the same source and/or its academic equal. I think if there are 2 numbers from 2 different sources - write about the differences and include both in the body of the article. I do like the idea of updating {{Infobox province or territory of Canada}} so both can appear, however simply removing the field all together would be best i think. Do we rrrrealy need all this info in the box in the first place - should it not be all in the article explaining its context anyways? 07:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- As a resource, and in many ways easier to get at analyzed information than the strict and confusing layout of StatsCan here is StatsBC's website.Skookum1 (talk) 09:28, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- First, I don't think census data is ancient. Data derived from an actual census has more validity than an estimate. Having said that, I have no objection to using Statscan intercensal estimates in infoboxes as well, which would presumably address any concerns about the currency of census data. As for estimates from provincial agencies and municipalities, many of them are derived from Statscan data anyway, so I think such information could legitimately be included in the body of the article (such decisions should generally be made on a case by case basis). Remember that the guideline at WP:CANSTYLE was intended to counter blatant breaches of WP:OR and WP:RS when including population figures in articles ("When you see all those new houses driving into town, the population must have doubled since 2006 fer sure!") -- provincial and municipal data, on the other hand, is from a legitimate source. However, given that provincial and municipal staff may use different methodologies from one another, and likely have differing objectives in preparing their estimates, I think the infoboxes themselves should stick to Statscan data and estimates, just so that we are sticking with apples-to-apples across all articles. Skeezix1000 (talk) 18:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- As an example, the City of Airdrie conducts an annual census. Not an estimate, an actual head count. The 2010 population count showed the city had a population of 39,822. [1] The 2006 national census showed the city as having a population of 28,927. By sticking to that old data, we have introduced a 27% error into our reporting of the city's population. That is ancient data. I get the idea of leaving the last national census figure in the infobox for consistency. But we should also include most recent data for accuracy. And frankly, I believe accuracy is more important than consistency anyway. Resolute 20:43, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- That can already be done for cities. As pointed out before {{Infobox settlement}} has the est pop field and it would be easy enough to add it to the provincial one. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 22:01, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- And when it is not an esimate, as in the example above? In either case, yes, something like that needs to be added to the provincial infoboxes as well. Resolute 00:34, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just re those BCStats pages, there's an interesting one broken down by provincial electoral districts, useful for improving electoral district articles; also by college region, health/hospital region etc, with everything available in Excel format as well as in PDF. I think the municipalities may be updated/estimated fairly regularly, though not by direct head-count like Airdrie etc. (Alberta has more money for that kind of thing). Note the "electoral districts revealed" link at teh top of that page, has some interesting comments/explanations of the data they have analyzed/sorted....Skookum1 (talk) 21:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- This discussion appears to be going a tad tangental to the municipal level of geography, with official municipal census population counts in Alberta and municipal population estimates published by BCStats in BC. As mentioned twice, the latter could use the "population_est" and "pop_est_as_of" parameters of the {{Infobox settlement}}, while the former could use the "population_blank1_title" and "population_blank1" parameters of the same template (since they are door-to-door counts and not estimates).
- I'd love to generally discuss both in greater detail just for education and personal interest purposes, but back to the topic at hand, the provincial/territorial level of geography. What are everyone's thoughts on adding "population_est" and "pop_est_as_of" equivalent parameters to the {{Infobox province or territory of Canada}}? Such an action would achieve both consistency and accuracy. Hwy43 (talk) 00:19, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I was planning to add it later but seeing as you asked. Yes I think it should be included. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 02:48, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
At least for cities and towns, the rule on here does quite explicitly allow properly sourced intercensal estimates and/or formal municipal censuses to be cited in our articles. However — and this is the point that some people keep failing to grasp — we also have a responsibility to provide a consistent source. Yes, by one perspective, 2006 census data is "outdated" in cases where an updated 2010 figure is properly citable; however, the moment you remove the 2006 census figure from an article entirely, such that its only population figure is a 2010 update, then you're setting up a false comparison to other cities which don't have reliable population updates published between national censuses. It's misleading to correlate Airdrie's population in 2010 to North Bay's or Brandon's or Edmundston's in 2006, because just like Airdrie, those cities have either grown or shrunk in the intervening four years too.
Which is why the rule has always been that updated population figures between national censuses can be provided as supplementary data, but not as a replacement for the most recent national census. The StatsCan census is the only source that's consistently available for every municipality right across the entire country, so it's the only figure that can provide a properly sourced apples-to-apples comparison that's consistent across all of our articles. Updated figures are certainly encouraged in body text wherever possible — but the 2006 figure still has to remain in all city articles until the 2011 census figures are published, whether an intermediate update is available or not, because that's the only number we can provide for users to compare across articles. And for the same reason, lists like List of the 100 largest cities in Canada require a consistent source as well, which is why those lists are never to be updated with any source outside of StatsCan data.
And incidentally, this is the problem I have with the claim that Calgary has surpassed Ottawa in population ranking. While it's certainly possible that it's true, it's currently based on a misleading comparison: Calgary did a municipal census in 2010, and Ottawa did not — which means that until StatsCan publishes its national 2011 census results, the claim rests on comparing two numbers that were calculated either by different methods or at different times (or both), and which are consequently not equivalent and not comparable.
When it comes to population data, it's absolutely critical that the figures be properly sourced, and it's absolutely critical that we provide data referenced to a consistent source — but while it's certainly nice to provide supplementary "up-to-the-minute" data where possible, it's not critical to do so if that compromises the more important objectives. 2006/2011 census data is the meat, and anything else is gravy — we can serve the meat without gravy if we have to, but we cannot serve the gravy without meat. Bearcat (talk) 07:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! For 2011, the Wine Project is doing a new Wine Improvement Drive where each month we focus on an area of articles that relate to a particular theme. In January we are are ringing in the New Year with New World wine, with a focus on the wines of the Northern Hemisphere-Canadian wine, American wine and Mexican wine. I am going by related projects to see if there is any interest in collaboration between this project and the wine project on the subject of Canadian wine? Some suggestion on potential article creations include Nova Scotia wine (currently a redirect), History of Canadian wine, the red links on Vintners Quality Alliance as well as individual appellation articles such as Pelee Island VQA (similar to the American Viticultural Areas where each wine region gets its own article). On a smaller scale, there are Canadian wine related articles that could use some help with clean up (such as Henry of Pelham Winery and Jackson-Triggs) or expanding beyond a stub such as the Vidal Blanc grape which is the source so many delicious Canadian Icewine. And, of course, of HUGE help would be the upload of free use photos of Canadian wineries, wines and wine regions to Commons that could be used to better illustrate Canadian wine articles. If you're interested in helping, please drop a note at the Wine Project's talk page with the article you're interested in helping with. Thanks and have a great New Year! AgneCheese/Wine 22:28, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hello my fellow Canadian Wikipedians (specifically West-Coasters, though a happy new year to all!). I think it would be great if we all could get together to celebrate Wikipedia's 10th annivesary on Jan. 15. I am trying to work out a meeting location in Vancouver; for all outside of the lower mainland, maybe we can set up a laptop for Skype drop-ins (or maybe its time for a vacation in balmy Vancouver!). We can discuss the meetup at this page at the official organizing area: Talk:Vancouver, B.C. I am told that swag such as t-shirts and buttons will be involved. Hope to see you there! The Interior(Talk) 03:10, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Geez, I'd like some of that swag but I can't afford to come....if anyone is from the Okanagan and gonna drive down for it, might be viable (I'm in Penticton).Skookum1 (talk) 03:57, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hope we can work something out, Skookum, be great to see you there. The Interior(Talk) 16:36, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing for Toronto? I thought we were the centre of the universe... → ROUX ₪ 19:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I hear Greyhound can get you over here in less than 3 days :) The Interior(Talk) 20:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Nope, Kitsilano is the centre of the universe, doesn't even need a ref since it's so obvious. TO just takes the numbers on vastly greater and more diversified economic weight, political clout, better newspapers and other media, various similarly minor factors. We have the edge on number of sushi places and definitely win on number of cedar trees and that invasive thorny vine that grows everywhere. Franamax (talk) 01:47, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm reviewing an article ( Polar Bear ) for GA status and the only open item is an image of a Canadian Postage stamp with no real use rationale. I'm thinking of trying to fix it myself. Does anybody know the image use permission basis for Canadian government produced works like postage stamps? North8000 (talk) 03:29, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I can't claim to be an authoritative source, but at best, it would be under Crown Copyright (50 years from issue), otherwise the original author would hold copyright (life + 50). As that was issued in the early 2000s, I don't see any way that derivative work is free for use. Resolute 03:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:42, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've been pondering this for a long time, also things like Scandinavian immigration to Canada, German immigration to Canada etc. but we all know waht time-available vs distractions vs wiki-gumbo is like. I'm wanting to clear this title before even beginning a sandbox, as it came into focus from the similarly named discussion on Talk:History of British Columbia. I've been the lone soldier there so far, defending Wikipedia, the anglophony etc from a bitter attack that begins:
- IMO these francos did not all disappear in 1858 following the gold rush americans influx as the official narrative would like us to believe. But they have been whitewashed by history for the usual basic bigotry prevailing reasons.
My first response is - "WHAT official narrative?". Ironically he cites a BC tourism site which sends up, out of proportion, francophone history, and clearly doens't know much of the rest of what went on, and assumes that it is the fault of anglophones that francohpones did not assert their identity more, and that francophones have not written BC history . I'll let y'all read the discussion, i tried to be as nice as possible but it's a bit circular; it's an interesting and worthy topic, I've cautioned him against SOAP and POINT and POV etc but to me this is someone with an axe to grind, and is not interested in building the house, only condemning others for not having done so, and that they must do it according to their POV if it is....decided to post this here because of the recent thing about French in the BC infobox...I've always found it doubly ironic when somebody who's clearly bigoted accuses others, who have done nothing to deserve it, in the most bigoted fashion possible. Anyway I've said what I can without losing it, if anyone has any objections to the proposed title please suggest alternatives. Another related article would be List of place names of French origin in British Columbia (note: note "French placenames" because many are adaptations to/from French, into English or Jargon and occasionally via a traditional native language....though the only example of that I can think of just now is from Spanish, i.e. Masset from Masseta, a captain's name).....I don't really have time to research/write this article, but at least an outline could be put up....so that us maudits anglos cannot be accused of ignoring the demand that we do something to promote/present BC's francophone history....note my comments at the end about why "and Metis" would not be a suitable component of the title; the francophones he's primarily interested in are pretty much all Metis, other than the priests...and "Metis" in BC doesn't mean exactly what it means traditionally and/or in French (where it tends to mean half-French, not just half-blood).Skookum1 (talk) 04:39, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Slightly different alternate, not sure which is more MOS, History of francophones in British Columbia, seems more awkward. Gives me pause to look at the French version of the BC History page, if there is one, and what they're using for sources...and what they're saying.Skookum1 (talk) 04:42, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- History of francophones... sounds to me like as good as it gets. As far as demands to include one topic or other, the standard answer is "{{sofixit}}", because of course everyone gets to work on whatever subject they want. The early coureurs du bois / French farming or merchant settlers (some of whom would be the Metis) are significant across Canada (and just for fun, I'm going to see if History of francophones in New England comes up as a bluelink). If you or someone else wants to start a framework article on the topic, I don't see a problem. Articles don't have to be first-rate when they start, just notable and sourced. Lack of coverage of one topic is never an argument against covering another topic. Franamax (talk) 05:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually re francophones in New England....see Little Canada....there's also some coverage I think on Franco-American or French American, whichever, and I think there's a US category, even, of places with French heritage; see Ethnic ancestry maps of the United States, I think it's called, also.Skookum1 (talk) 06:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Maps of American ancestries maybe....just came to me....I remember now also a bettter title re teh francophone was is History of francophones in the Pacific Northwest, 1811-1846 and, re La Perouse the boundaries, and teh activity/presence, were not ver much in modern BC at all; McLoughlin, whom he obsesses over IMO, barely came north from Fort Vancouver, his only connection with BC's boudnaries being via the York Factory Express and I'm not even sure he went to New Caledonia....anyway pretty clearly upon consideration that the context of the article should be hte Pacific Northwest (not including Alberta, as that term sometimes does) rather than British Columbia. Though many of the same people are involved as east of the Rockies, the circumstance was very different, and there were other kinds of francophones than just the fur company workers....and the bulk of their history is in what's now Oregon and WAshington....Skookum1 (talk) 06:31, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Greetings Canadians! I notice that C. D. Howe has been nominated for promotion to FA. Please give comments or vote at: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/C. D. Howe/archive1. All the best!
With the creation of Category:British colonization of the Americas there's some parent/hierarchy confusion vs Category:British North America and maybe others....re the former one's title, I'd think Category:British colonies and territories in North America and maybe a pre-1776/1783 and post 1776-1783 subcats are called for, because of the Thirteen Colonies et al, and would work better than "British North America", which has clear "Canada"-only connections; I've never felt comfortable with describing the Columbia District or New Caledonia under that term, which sounds like a unitary place, not a scattered collection of territories/colonies as really it was, especially outside what is now Central Canada........"colonization" also infers non-territorial activity or areas of British influence, e.g. Uruguay/Rio de la Plata, Callao, trade activity, settlement in non-British territories etc etc....please have a look at Category:British colonies and its subcats....maybe this is sortable-outable without a CfD, or with only one CfD at some point....it's a tangled knot right now.....Skookum1 (talk) 21:15, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
there's quite the tendency for ski area articles to contain current conditions/news updates, like the addition here. I'm not sure this belongs in the article at all; it's more like a press advisory for the mountain's customers than being encyclopedic in any way....do we cover every breakdown of equipment on such articles? I don't think so, but fielding it here for comment....Skookum1 (talk) 21:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:NOTNEWS, WP:UNDUE. That's just an IP not understanding that Wikipedia is not intended to cover every trivial detail. Just remove it, imo. Resolute 21:30, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Done, thanks for the guidelines to cite in doing so; would you mind reviewing Whistler_Blackcomb#Incidents as they're of the same ilk; though some involved injuries, even fatalities; Lift failures at Whistler Blackcomb would not seem to be the way to go....and WikiNews doesn't have the admin stuff to deal with coverage like this, I think....Skookum1 (talk) 00:21, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Offhand, I think the last three incidents are all trivial and could be removed as such. It is one of those things where a simple statement like "there have been occasional failures that have forced closure of the lifts.{cite}{cite}". Going into that much detail over what I presume are minor incidents is not that useful. In truth, if I cared to do so, I would rewrite the entire section to exclude the sub-section headers. The only thing those do is encourage people to create new sections for trivial incidents, exactly as happened here. Resolute 03:07, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've been wondering about the viability of this list for quite a while, also List of filming locations in the British Columbia Interior....are there equivalent lists for LA, Toronto, New York, Boston, Halifax, London?? Isn't this just an agglomeration of trivia? Almost a bulletin board for set-spotting, and not really encyclopedic? Lots of articles - lots and lots of articles - have "so and so was shot here", much like "George Washington slept here" (or in the Canadian context "John A. MacDonald got drunk here"). I created the BC Interior list, partly because the Vancouver area list started including areas outside the Lower Mainland/Greater Vancouver, and as some may remember there was a one-time debate because the title originally delimited only the GVRD, under its brand-name Metro Vancouver, but the film industry is not governed nor restricted by RDs or their boundaries.....I'm just....well, like i said, is there a List of filming locations in Greater Los Angeles or List of filming locations in Manhattan or List of filming locations in Toronto? Seems like a lot of navel-gazing to me if there's only a Vancouver/BC pair of "Hollywood North" lists....the reality is sooner or later teh whole city is going to be covered, no?Skookum1 (talk) 07:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- So what's to stop others from creating similar lists? Wikipedia is a work in progress after all.. I believe these lists can be encyclopedic, and with added pictures they make for great-looking lists, though they should probably stick to covering just the most prominent locations, and not try to be exhaustive. -- Ϫ 09:36, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, the question then is to determine what makes a given location notable, filmically. Certain the Marine Building and Ruskin Dam and SFU and the Chan Centre and Lynn Canyon Park, Buntzen Lake etc (all very popular and IMO much-overused locations)...but the reality of the film business, when concentrated in a city like Vancouver or LA or New York, and with filming eventually everywhere becomes a film set eventually. On Supernatural alone, I've spotted twenty or thirty locations in and around Mission and Maple Ridge (my home turf, or one of them - I was raised at Ruskin Dam); the Stargate series(es), variously, Smallville, Flash Gordon and other series have covered a number of residential neighbourhoods/addresses at length, in Kitsilano, Kerrisdale, Lynn Valley and so on. So is Lynn Valley a location? Is Kitsilano? Half the high schools in the city have been used on various shows; which of them are notable? Wikipedia maybe be a work in progress, but it is not intended to be a directory of trivia.....Skookum1 (talk) 20:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Location name (ordered by geographic region, sub-ordered alphabetically )
Film/Show |
Filming date(s) |
Organising corporation/group |
Other data film students might need
|
blah |
197o |
Megamovies of Vancouver |
Shot in black&white digital by monkeys.
|
- What information is being presented, and why might it be relevant to the reader? which leads directly presentation. The data, currently, is not rich, nor is it presented in a way to make it useful/accessible to readers. You have a list of locations, each of which has a list of article links.
- Using a table to organise addition information about each shooting site is still fanboi, but it also serves a specific (if rare) group of film archivists/researchers. Find out what kind of information they record in their records. (My list of possible columns is specious; I don't know what they might want to find on en.WP.) - Amgine (talk) 01:58, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I dropped by the Public Affairs Bureau (British Columbia) website (here) last night in relation to non-wiki matters, and there was this posted at the top of its main page:
- Photos, videos and artist renderings are available for use in whole or in part without permission provided they are used unaltered. No credit line is required.
Doesn't say public domain but also doesn't restrict any known use; what might be the license for such usage? This would seem only to apply to pages on this domain, and not to other government websites, where SFAIK Crown Copyright still applies (other than places like BC Arch where it's lapsed on the 50-year rule).Skookum1 (talk) 21:30, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- At first glance, "provided they are used unaltered" would seem to indicate that derivative works are disallowed, which means they would be unsuitable for adding to Commons. Might want to check the Legal section of their website to get more info, if they have one. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 22:12, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed. As far as Wikimedia is concerned, the no derivative clause means those images are not considered free for our use. Resolute 22:17, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_December_20#Category:Hydroelectric_power_stations_in_Canada - which I'm very unsatisfied by as it leaves a non-Canadian usage in the name of Canadian categories. Canadian English was discounted on the first CfD and the Americans given an exception; my input was rejected because I was the sole Canadian voice, i.e. because I was a Canadian (actually I think there were two others, but their input was passed over entirely as if they were not there; our decision was made for us; on this second one, it was said that no exception woudl be made for any country, even though the US already has such an exception for its own variety of English/terminology . It's very disappointing that few Canadians came to this CfD; it needs to be done a third time, after raising it maybe in CANMOS; CANMOS should have overridden "global consensus that we didn't matter"....the other Canadians in this one, which there were a few of, were largely in agreement with me except one guy pointing out that in SK they use "power station".
"Canadian opinion doesn't matter on Canadian categories" is what we're being tolld - or I'm being told. "Consensus: no decision" means that the wrong previous consensus is being allowed to stand, and teh very unsatisfactory situation upheld, as well as teh dismissive logic which cause the problem int he first place.Skookum1 (talk) 07:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- 2 cents from the peanut gallery.....I took a quick look at it. I didn't see it as "Canadian opinion doesn't count"; I saw it as nobody making the case that there is a consistently used (different) term in Canada.North8000 (talk) 19:08, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Read through the arguments, it's not in Brown-Haired Girl's decision statement; and read through the previous CfD (wherever it is). True, there is no one consistently used term in Canada however a quick glance at all the categories shows that "generating station" is the prevailing term, by 90% or so; retaining a usage that's only in use in one province (SK) just because it's the "convention from above" and "there's no proof of consistent usage" across Canada belies the very pointed fact that, nationally, "power station" is a rarity, the SK case is an anomaly, and "generating station" is the Canadian standard (when "powerhouse" or "power plant" isn't, even though they're more common in "spoken" Canadian, likewise in news/magazine sources). "Power station" is very pointedly a British-ism and not at all common in Canada; to me (and as someone raised around power plants) it just sounds "foreign". Again again, there's no consistency across the US either, but (as per the previous CfD), an exception was made for them. I dispute this notion that "convention" can "descend" into child categories if the countries in question don't use the term (except rarely). The attitude in both CfD discussions towards Canadian English were dismissive, the counter-arguments picayune and discounted the Canadian norm(s).Skookum1 (talk) 19:19, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hello? Is this thing on? I am sitting in Benny's Bagels testing a very small computer. If no-one else brings one this will be the technology package. I plan to have a Skype channel running as "Franaparty" uuring our 10th-anniversary meetup tonight. If anyone wants to call in from across Canada (or elsewhere) to say hi, feel free to (try to) connect. Event starts at 6:30 PM PST. Franamax (talk) 23:40, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
file:EIIR-Canadian Parliament.jpg has been nominated for deletion. 65.93.13.210 (talk) 06:02, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually.... a large number of Canadian royalty images have been nominated for deletion at the same time, 17 January nominations by Damiens.rf (talk · contribs). 65.93.13.210 (talk) 06:06, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I had reason to drop by the Gordon Campbell (Canadian politician) article tonight, after noting some harsh and deceptive (and unreferenced) spin on Glen Clark. In many - many - sections, the only citations given are from government press offices, either government ministries or frmo news.gov.bc.ca or similar sites; all are controlled by the Public Affairs Bureau, which is directly under the control of the Premier's Deputy Chief of Staff, who is also his Executive Assistant, and is not known (in the slightest) for its impartiality or for its fair presentation of actual facts. See Talk:Gordon_Campbell_(Canadian_politician)#Host_of_govt_sources_here_are_all_POV.2FCOI as I think any section there parroting a press release put out by an office directly under this politician's control is not viable or acceptable in Wikipedia unless clearly stipulated as a claim made by "government spokesman/offices/press release". Too much is presented as if it were fact, and reams of political context to many items, such as the doctor's pay raise, are entirely meaningless without their larger context - in that case a doctor's strike because Campbell broke standing contracts with them to try and get them to reduce their rates; they rebelled and won, though the 20.7% raise as I remember was a compromise settlement. This isn't the only article with this problem, and I fully expect to see "more of teh same" in citations on Stephen Harper and the Ministry of Stephen Harper articles and the like. Allowing Wikipedia to be an echo chamber for govenrment-generated spin/political "push" is not what we're supposed to be; either more third-party information and sources is added to teh sections in question, or they should be deleted as both COI and POV.Skookum1 (talk) 06:24, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Taken by itself, a source is neither POV nor COI. Even a government one. You are effectively accusing one or more editors of editing with a COI, and that claim will require support if it is going to be considered in good faith. At any rate, I am not convinced of your argument. For instance, the press release noting the 20.7% raise covers a fact that not even you are challenging, so I see no issue with COI or POV there. If you wish to replace with a non-government source, you can no doubt find a CBC article or something similar. That is your choice.
- It seems that your real issue is about an apparent lack of context. That's fair, but don't assume bad faith assuming why such statements have been simplified down to bare facts. That is pretty much how 90% of Wikipedia's editors write. There are only a limited number of editors who can and do bring the greater picture. If you wish to expand, feel free, though I would suggest limiting to summary style, as your tendency towards verbosity could unbalance an artice. Resolute 20:23, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- That's one reason I haven't tried to work on this article, which in fact I took off my watchlist a long time ago as it gave me headaches; and like 90% (literally, and backed up by more than one poll) I intensely dislike this man and am horrified at what he has done to my province, in too many ways to begin here, so was semi-recusing myself on my own COI grounds. But there's a difference between "lack of content", which this article certainly has a problem with, and "one-sided content", which is the problem with most of its sections, other than the final ones where even NPOV accounts of what's gone on are condemnatory. I haven't taken the time to look back into the history to see who put in the one-sided sections, which are legion, and as I've explained the citations in question are all political-party/p.r.-agency derived material and this is a well-known fact in BC, even criticized by the mainstream media at times (though not often). CanWest in particular is known as a POV source, very pro-Liberal/business and anti-NDP (btw I'm not pro-NDP myself, anything but), but press releases from the government itself, fluffing up controversial policvies with feel-good language, has just been brought into here with no effort at all by those adding it to provide "balance" with "teh rest of the story", as with the Doctor's Strike. The lesser papers, certain ones in particular, have done an admirable job of covering what otherwise only teh blogosphere, as the Globe calls it, have covered and focussed on - read this, for example, by Merv Ritchie of the Terrace Daily, and note the passage in bold about the so-called Fudgeit-Budget hype the Liberals put out during their rise to power and have repeated afterwards as if it were true. The Glen Clark article has a deceptive passage about this (that article has POV issues "in both directions") and in the case of the Campbell article it's not stated as the reason for the brutal tax-and-service cuts of his incoming administration, the rationale for which was teh allegedly bad financial condition the outgoing NDP had left the place in; t he opposite was the case, and both the auditor-general and comptroller-general showed that as the case (both were replaced with someone more compliant with government spin thereafter, of course). The fluff about improving education is exactly that: fluff, and borne out only by more government press releases; as with the BC Legislature Raids article, properly expanding and NPOVizing this article is too much work for any one person; but main concern is that government citations giving only one party's view (the ruling party's) of government policies are inherently COI, same as they would be if this were on the BC Liberal Party page (where, if you can't see it but you should, sources from a government run by that party are implicitly COI). Government sources should only be used for data; not for reasons etc unless it says, outright "the government said ......" "the reason given by the government for this was....". And yes, I'm not used to thinking in terse point-form, but one reason is because I believe in completeness and fullness, not in boiled-down and overly-neutralized content that all too easily serves the interests of spin machines - especially if only material from the spin machines is what's presented. Skookum1 (talk) 20:56, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- For example, I know if I were to attempt to include criticisms such as those from Corky Evans here there'd be complaints that I was adding "unbalanced information" and there'd be complaints also that i was using a blog as a citation; this is because the Sun and Province and other so-called "reliable" sources won't give Corky Evans or other critics space in their Op-Ed pages; see somewhere above about the unreliability and POV of mainstream coverage vs political blogs, the latter now being widely regarded by British Columbians as the only really reliable sources of information in the province.....Skookum1 (talk) 21:05, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My take is that there is an issue of undue weight, outlined in WP:NPOV: "discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic...undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements." Your argument seems to be using only government sources has given undue weight. It shouldn't be an argument from removing these sources from the article. Rather, they should be incorporated into a larger description of the issue. For example, the issue such as the doctor's pay raise. The fact that the 20% raise can be perfectly incorporated into the article from a government source, and rounded out with the description that it occurred after the doctors strike (being careful of tone to comply with NPOV). While I don't agree with the removal of these sources, I would agree that the article needs to have an NPOV tag if it is as bad as you characterize (I don't have enough knowledge to make that call). --Natural RX 21:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Undue weight is a good summary of the problem I suppose. It already has peacock, COI and POV tags - the POV tags were there because of defensive Campbell-flavoured edits, as I recall some even from government servers; the COI issue of government press-agency sources(i.e. controlled by Campbell's office directly) was not previously addressed).Skookum1 (talk) 22:08, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just wanted to drop a reminder about plans for meeting with Ms Gardner in Toronto while she is in Canada for a speaking engagement. Not many have spoken up, but there's still time to set up a casual get-together event. - Amgine (talk) 06:25, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed a List of U.S. state partition proposals article. Perhaps we should have a similar article for Canada? There certainly have been several movements to divide the provinces, and the territories have been divided several times (to add to Quebec and Ontario, to create the Prairie provinces, then Yukon, then Nunavut).
We have some articles on it already, such as Province of Toronto and Partition of Quebec... and the news every once in a while reports movements for Vancouver Island, Cape Breton, Labrador, etc. A central clearinghouse would be useful, with links to more detailed articles if such exist.
64.229.103.105 (talk) 13:05, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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