Talk:Darius the Great

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Before March 2007

One Relief, Two Kings

The articles on Xerxes and Darius each have pictures of the very sam relief from Persepolis, (note the damage) and each article attributes the portrait to its eponymous king. Is it a relief of Xerxes? Of Darius? Is this question disputed? In any case, the image from the article on Darius is of much better quality, so it should be used once we've established a reasonable caption. 75.71.66.105 21:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I found it!, here. It was originally placed in the eastern stairs of the Apadana, which were built by Darius, so it's agreed that the depicted king is him. A twin relief (we have it here and here too; see also this page) was originally placed in the northern stairs of the Apadana, which were built by Xerxes, so some think the depicted king is him, but it is disputed (in fact, Xerxes only finished the Apadana what his father had begun). In any case, there is no doubt about our relief: the king is Darius. Both reliefs were later removed from the Apadana and placed in the Treasury. Our relief is now in the Teheran Museum, but its twin remains in Persepolis. So I'll replace the "Xerxes" image with this one, making it clear that it is not agreed whether the king is Xerxes or Darius. Amizzoni 23:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism Edits

I'm not sure how the article got so thoroughly vandalized, but I just spent a good twenty minutes removing snippets from all over the article. That vandalism persisted through numerous legitimate edits, so I'm asking everyone to please take a minute to read over the entire section you're editing before you leave the page. Some of the vandalism was almost a month old. Thanks! Spectheintro 14:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)spectheintro

I almost spent one hour just to make everything right, and to make my report about Darius. But, there are many errors that I saw in the whole article! This makes the article very "disgusting" to read, but what important is that everything about Darius is corrected. ("Maybe, Darius will be very happy to make everything right about him and everything will be corrected through the cooperation of everybody!") Bubbles16 22 15:39 15 August 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bubbles16 22 (talk • contribs) 07:34, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposed move to Darius the Great

I think it is a good idea to move the article to Darius the Great, as that is in fact the common name he is known by in the English language. After all, we also have Cyrus the Great and Alexander the Great, not Cyrus II or Alexander III. Shervink 16:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

As there has been no response in three weeks to the proposed move, I understand that nobody opposes the idea. So I will proceed with moving the article. Shervink 08:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I have two books on my shelf one says Darius I and the other just Darius. Are you sure that the Great means anything other than his tittle was "Great King"? But tho I disagree with the move let it stay as it is for now.Dejvid 01:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It is not necessarily "Great King" , but he had claimed he is the "King of Kings" (from a tablet he had ordered to be inscripted or carved). It is right that not all kings who ruled Persia were not called as "the Great" (examples were Cyrus and Darius). It is given to a ruler who had done a big, or in some cases, the greatest role in his kingdom, in spite of the negative things he had done when he ascended to the throne. A few are only considering Darius as a great king, or being referred to as "Darius the Great". Bubbles16 22 15:32 15 August 2009

How Many Provinces?

The present edit says that Darius organized the Persian Empire into twenty provinces called satrapies. Most sources say that he really had that 20 satrapies, which refer to the major provinces (example is Babylon, who has been conquered by Cyrus the Great a generation ago.) but the 120, which has been expanded to 127 by Darius on the near end of his reign, were only minor ones. Yeah, Persia really reached its "golden age" under Darius. But, his successor, Xerxes, had lost some of these provinces due to revolts against him.

He had 20 great satrapies. These were ruled by satraps, but being guarded by the inspectors he had established to act as Darius' "eyes and ears", to maintain the order in ruling these satrapies. You're right: they are called satrapies: but other books gave the name of "minor satrapies", which refer to the minor provinces Darius had established earlier in his reign, when he started his conquest for a bigger empire. --bubbles16_22 (talk) 15:21, 15 August 2009

Requested move (expired)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result was no consensus. Vassyana (talk) 08:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The current title is out of line with other Persian monarchs (Xerxes I of Persia, who was Xerxes the Great, and Cyrus the Great, who is not titled "Cyrus the Great of Persia"). Remove the redundancy. Srnec (talk) 23:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support. The 'of Persia' seems pretty redundant here to me (unless there are some other Darius the Greats I'm not aware of?). Terraxos (talk) 03:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Calling him simply Darius would be defensible; but if not, we should use Darius I, like the Oxford Classical Dictionary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the Book of Daniel's Darius the Mede is famous enough to preclude simply "Darius", but if we go with ordinals, shouldn't it be Darius I of Persia for consistency, or would you move all the others to simply "Name + Ordinal"? Anyways, I think the nickname is more informative, since I doubt many people who are not well-informed of him already know what his numeral is, but perhaps his nickname. Besides, we already have Cyrus the Great. Srnec (talk) 18:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The reason for including country in European monarchs is the likelihood of their being ambiguous with monarchs of other countries. The chance here is much smaller (Armenia? Atropatene?) so we don't need to do that, any more than we use Akihito of Japan.

I don't think that this nickname (or indeed Cyrus the Great) actually distinguishes him for anybody. Neither is actually common in English; they're modern Iranian nationalism at work. If Cyrus needs disambiguation from his distant descendant Cyrus the Younger, he should be Cyrus the Elder. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

You don't think the nicknames distinguish these figures? I do. I've always known them as such. Since I was a kid. They are more common in English than either ordinals or "elder/younger". Can I ask why you believe this is Iranian nationalism? I have never heard that before. Srnec (talk) 23:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Which them have you always known as such? The two Cyri, or Cyrus and Darius?

I believe that Cyrus the Great was titled by Iranian nationalists, because it was written (at least the text that I reviewed when it was presented to FAC some time ago) by Iranian nationalists. I am open to persuasion that this is common usage; but the OCD is a standard source. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I meant both Cyrus the Great and Darius the Great.

I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that the figures were nicknamed by Iranian nationalists, not that their articles were only titled by them. Google searches for Cyrus seem pretty definitively in favour of Cyrus the Great. Darius I seems to have a slight margin, however the searches were difficult to perform for Darius without getting "false positives" either way. I will let you perform any Google searches yourself, if you care. Outside of that I don't know how to demonstrate that the cognomen is to be preferred, but either way I want this page renamed. Srnec (talk) 05:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

The current title is out of line with other Persian monarchs and is redundant (there is no other Darius who is the Great except one of the ones who is also of Persia). I prefer Darius the Great, but seeing as it failed as "no consensus"... Srnec (talk) 23:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support as an improvement. But what's wrong with Darius, as primary usage against Darius II Ochus and so on? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

There's also Darius III Codomannus. Notice this search and how the first hit is "Darius the Great". The only other Persian king to make the first page is also "Darius the Great". All other "Darius" mentions are to companies or modern figures. Srnec (talk) 05:56, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Like Spetentrionalis, I'd prefer Darius. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:08, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support Darius I of Persia. Dekimasuよ! 07:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support The current title is awful. Darius I or Darius the Great would both be fine. I don't like Darius, which is ambiguous - Alexander doesn't go to Alexander the Great, does it? john k (talk) 16:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

By the way, did anyone notice that the move from Darius I of Persia to Darius the Great of Persia was carried through with essentially no discussion? The mover said he wanted to move to "Darius the Great," got no response, and then moved it to Darius the Great of Persia. There was never any consensus for the current title. john k (talk) 16:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support Darius I, Darius I of Persia, Darius the Great: all of them are alright for me. Amizzoni (talk) 01:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
• Seems to have been moved - there are still redirects to fix. Dekimasuよ! 15:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

ethymology

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.173.120 (talk) 01:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

78.151.173.120 (talk) 05:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)The name Darius is of Lithuanian origin and still is very popular name in Lithuania. It originates from the verb 'daryti'=to make/to act/to be doing smth and consequently Darius means both and being making/being acting/being doing and the man who is doing/acting/making...Zeus Bottiaeus in Lithuanian language 'Dzevs Botiaus' means God of our ancestors (Aleksandre dedicated altar to Zeus Bottiaeus)...Aleksandras in Lithuanian language 'A(t)lek(e)s Antras' means born second and Macedon 'Manke Duona' means knead bread...Hun in Lith. 'Gunas/ganytojas' means pastor/shep-herd and Atila 'Eitila' means going/runing the office...Ainiai is the name of ancient Greece tribe and in Lithuanian language that means posterity/antecedents78.151.173.120 (talk) 05:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Ascension

There is no section on Darius' ascension to power by the asassaination of the "Magian", who was impersonating Smerdis, the murdered brother of Cambyses. Darius and the "7" who killed the Magian then sought out the best form of government, with the decision being based on whoever's horse neighed first in the morning, would become King. Darius, through deception, won the contest, as told by Herodotus, book 3. anyone mind if i add the section? Nathraq (talk) 18:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

It is a serious academic theory that Gaumata never existed. So it should be explained as such. See also Smerdis and I have another go. BTW, Herodotus was describing the events 100 hundred years later from persian sources and Darius left only inscription on his tomb, not a reliable account of how Gaumata usurped the power StJohnTheBaptist (talk) 14:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Where is that "serious academic". "Persian fire" is that academic? I am using P. Briant and Dandamaev. So please consider reading WP:POV. Your source does not seem respected in this area. Also please stop introducing deliberate error. According to sources by Dandamaev an others (from cambridge history series) that theory is hypothetical and the only debate is whether the person in question is Cambyses's brother that your "academic source" mention as cambyses himself (or you made the error). According to WP:POV: the article should mention what the scholars of the subjects say and not "anybody". Also please read a bit of the sources I provided: all (I repeat all) ancient Iranian, Greek and Roman sources mention the theory as stated. It is interesting that you question all ancient sources on an ancient subject. You even do not know where the inscription is and you come and question what you even do not know its place? Darius the Great+Herodetous+Justin+ The Cambridge history series (Ancient and Iran) should be enough to leave the things as stated because of WP:UNDUE.Xashaiar (talk) 23:10, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

What you say above makes no sense. (1) It was not Cambuses: it was my error and the last version is correct. (2) Your opinion aboout Persian Fire is irrelevant: stop pushing your POV. (3) I can give more references but you are not giving references. For some reason you are just saying according to Darius himself. Are you aware that he did not write anything and this is just an inscription on his tomb? StJohnTheBaptist (talk) 06:52, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Why it is irrelevant? "Persian fire" is not academic. I am not pushing "my" pov. I am pushing Encyclopaedia Iranica, The Cambridge History of Iran, and The Cambridge Ancient History POV. And the reason is WP:POV: " The article should represent the POVs of the main scholars and specialists who have produced reliable sources on the issue". Now yourself tell me, Dandamaev, Schmitt, are relevant or "the author of Persian fire"? 2. "inscription on his tomb" please read a bit about the inscription you are talking about. It was not on his tomb. All ancient sources confirm what is written and you can not challenge Herodotus, Justin and all others just because you read something different. Please bring view of specialists of Iranian studies. Xashaiar (talk) 07:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

User:Xashaiar, you do not know what you are talking about. I have just looked up P.Briant. He says that the ancient sources contain major contradictions. While he does not support alternative theory, he states clearly that the situation is complicated. Why are you trying to misrepresent major sources? StJohnTheBaptist (talk) 07:51, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

And you know waht yo are talking about because

1. You put Darius tomb in Behistun.
2. Your alternative theory is from "Persian fire". The cambridge history series/Iranica call that "hypothetical".
3. Briant writes in English and he makes it clear that he is talking about the one who is called Bardia in Babylonian tables. Thats why there are many Bardia's. Why do you falsify?
4. Your language looks like highschool or something: "it is worth mentioning", "alternative theory" "To cover the crime"...

If this is your edit which makes you know what you are talking about, then go on. Xashaiar (talk) 08:03, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Would you please find rewording for "it is worth mentioning", "alternative theory" "To cover the crime"... because they are no encyclopaedic: I propose "There is also", "the view..", "to legitimize his seizure of roral power". You agree? Xashaiar (talk) 20:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Removal of Category:Pre-Islamic heritage of Iran

Hi User Xashaiar

Please ref to your removal of category
In this edit of yours
darius does not belong to that category (according to description of the category

The reason you sited for removal does not seem valid because the very first criteria listed in the description of this category it clearly states

“People from Iran or their descendants of ethnic Zoroastrian/Aryan descent”

Please do not delete this category .
Cheers
Intothefire (talk) 03:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Darius the Great was a person, so although I think Achaemenid empire should go in that category, but "people of Achaemenid Iran" seem to me belong to subcategories. If that category should stay there I think there should be subcategories. And why the category "History of Iran" is not enough?--Xashaiar (talk) 07:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi User Xashaiar

I havent been able to understand the meaning of your post please specificaly explain ....and do not delete before discussing your reasons ,
Intothefire (talk) 11:27, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Would you please explain what is the point of your Category:Pre-Islamic heritage of Iran? Because we have the category Category:History of Iran and Category:Achaemenid_people. Have a look at them please. Please delete your category.--Xashaiar (talk) 12:06, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Reverts

I rewrote the article and was reverted. Could anyone care to explain why. warrior4321 20:27, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Substantial changes to a well-established article like this should not be taken without discussion on the talk page. What was so terrible about the previous version? You also deleted all links to Wikipedias in other languages. PatGallacher (talk) 20:49, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

PatGallacher, first off see WP:BOLD. An article does not have to be bad to be improved. As for the interwiki links, I have restored those. NW (Talk) 20:55, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Uh :

1. Most of it was unsourced.
2. There was a whole load of hyperbole.
3. I added more subsections for easier retrieval of specific information
4. Are you saying that the proposed article is worse off than the current article?
5. An article does not have to be in terrible condition to be improved.

warrior4321 21:04, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

(at warrior) Look, your change at certain points were OK, but you removed a lot of well-sourced stuff without discussions. For example you removed "Name section". why? Do not forget Iranian Names play an important role. Another example you had added "Darius did not receive general recognition.. " who told you that? I think you can add your stuff step by step, so that we see what POV is represented. Xashaiar (talk) 21:00, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Whatever I had rewritten has a source at the end of the paragraph. If one paragraph was removed, could you not add that? Why would you remove everything I wrote? warrior4321

That's why you are asked to do things step by step. I did not remove everything you wrote, I undid your removal of everything written by others including myself. The article is in bad shape, but there are very good parts as well, you removed all. Actually most of your edit is POV for example why you removed the material

• "Darius was a Zoroastrian. In fact the rejection of falsehood (i.e. drauga) is itself viewed as an acknowledgement of Zoroastrian teachings which Darius very often mentions. And beside there is a number of other important monuments and inscriptions as evidence and guides to Darius' Zoroastrian beliefs. Indeed Darius is very often portrayed with his right hand raised, apparently at prayer according to Zoroastrian prescriptions. Ahuramazda, proclaimed by Zoroaster as God, is mentioned and celebrated as Creator in most speeches of Darius. Darius' Naqsh-e Rostam inscription reads "A great god is Ahuramazda, who created this earth, who created yonder sky, who created man, who created happiness". This reference to Ahuramazda as Creator only of what is good is in accordance with Zoroastrian doctrine and as such significant. In the Elamite version of Darius' trilingual inscription at Behistun, "Ahuramazda" is called "god of Aryans (i.e. Iranians)"."

and replaced with this

• "Darius was a strong believer in Zoroastrianism, and believed that Ahura Mazda had appointed him to be the Shahenshah of the Persian Empire. In the Behistun Inscription, he mentions the fact that Ahura Mazda has bestowed this privilege and these blessings upon him. He states that he is the friend of the good and those who follow the path of asha, and the enemy of druj. "

are you serious? Xashaiar (talk) 21:15, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

1. Darius was a Zoroastrian. In fact the rejection of falsehood (i.e. drauga) is itself viewed as an acknowledgement of Zoroastrian teachings
   1. He states that he is the friend of the good and those who follow the path of asha, and the enemy of druj.
   2. Darius was a strong believer in Zoroastrianism

1. which Darius very often mentions.
   1. In the Behistun Inscription, he mentions the fact that Ahura Mazda has bestowed this privilege and these blessings upon him. He states that he is the friend of the good and those who follow the path of asha, and the enemy of druj.

1. Indeed Darius is very often portrayed with his right hand raised, apparently at prayer according to Zoroastrian prescriptions.
   1. That is not mentioned.

1. And beside there is a number of other important monuments and inscriptions as evidence and guides to Darius' Zoroastrian beliefs.
   1. In the Behistun Inscription, [...]

1. Ahuramazda, proclaimed by Zoroaster as God, is mentioned and celebrated as Creator in most speeches of Darius.
   1. In the Behistun Inscription, he mentions the fact that Ahura Mazda has bestowed this privilege and these blessings upon him.

Most of the facts that you given in the above paragraph, are all written in the paragraph I wrote, there is just a shorter number of words. warrior4321 21:54, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

The question is why did you replace that paragraph with yours? Why yours is better? For example: For what reason you changed the Old Persian references to Avestan? (in 1,2). "Strong" in what sense? Please before rewording tell me what is wrong with previous wording. Your sentence "He states that he is the friend of the good and those who follow the path of asha, and the enemy of druj" does not help as Darius did not speak middle persian (or Avestan) he wrote in Old Persian and that must be preserved. ... To start with please tell me what is wrong with previous wording.Xashaiar (talk) 12:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The actual question is why is the -current state- better. The statement that Darius never said he was the enemy of druj is wrong, as it is found in Encyclopedia Iranica, and in Zoroastrians:Their Beliefs and Practices, by Mary Boyce. warrior4321 22:42, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Please take the matter seriously: the point is "Darius never spoke Avestan" he used the Old Persian word and that's what I meant. I do not need to say why the old version was better. Usually when you reword something, you should say what the problem was. But, I will think about the matter and will propose a version that may help us reach a WP:CONS. Xashaiar (talk) 04:15, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

1. Since you can't tell me why the original one is better, I shall tell you why the reworded one is a better candidate. For one, there are references for every paragraph, which this current state of the article does not have. Secondly, it is more organized, there are proper sections with subsections and has the information (that is currently in the lead and not in the body) in the body. As well, there are no one or two lines paragraphs, but thick solid ones for the most part.
2. Of course Darius did not speak Avestan as a language, Avestan was an extinct language by that time. However, he did use Avestan terms and phrases, and he also created a written version of the Avesta. Why am I not taking the matter seriously? I gave you two reliable and academic sources which are authorities on the topic. Saying that Darius did not speak Avestan as a language means he did not use words such as asha and druj are incorrect, as those are still used today in the Avestan scriptures of the Zoroastrian faith, the Avesta. warrior4321 05:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

your first point: The old version (i.e. current) paragraph on "Zoroastrian religion of Darius.." is probably the best sourced paragraph of the entire wikipedia. So please do not tell me that sense your version is sourced at all points so you can delete the entire article and replace by yours. This is not what one should do. Right now, you can delete any sentence unsourced and write your sourced replacement. But do not delete/replace sourced one. Second point: Not all sources you give are the best for ancient Iran. Finally: you say "However, he did use Avestan terms and phrases,". This is wrong.Xashaiar (talk) 05:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Most of the paragraphs are not sourced. If only these few lines are sourced, then it makes sense to add that paragraph in my version of the article. Why is it wrong, show me some reliable and academic sources which say he never spoke Avestan. warrior4321 11:58, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Request for comment

I have re-written an article version of Darius the Great. The article is more organized, referenced and follows many Wikipedian policies and guidelines. The article can be found here. I am proposing that the proposed version replace the current version. However, if no response is given in around five day's time, I will implement the proposed version. warrior4321 06:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not clear to me that this is an improvement over the previous article. The "horse trick" is unexplained (I do know what you mean, but others might not) and this business about mules foaling could be later legend. Doing a complete rewrite is probably not the best way of treating an article like this, if it needs significant improvement do so step by step. PatGallacher (talk) 10:10, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

We are here to improve the encyclopedia. Completing a self-rewrite is fine if there are no issues with the article. However, the issue has been addressed to, while the mules foaling issue is written by Herodutus and has a reliable source provided. Any other issues? warrior4321 12:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Problems with article

There are these problems with the article:-

1. The section on Smerdis/Bardiya/Gaumata has an anti-Bardiya bias, it should be a condensation of the Bardiya article, some issues e.g. his religous policy should be moved there.

2. The article relies rather heavily on one source, the Encyclopedia Iranica article, I am not convinced this is a particularly good source. Darius is one of the most important rulers in ancient history, there must be a fairly large amount of material on him.

3. Most educated people with some knowledge of ancient history will have heard of the Persian Empire, by comparison the term Achmaenied is rather obscure. PatGallacher (talk) 01:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

1. The section on Smerdis/Bardiya/Gaumata has an anti-Bardiya bias, it should be a condensation of the Bardiya article, some issues e.g. his religous policy should be moved there.

Where is the anti-Bardiya bias? WP:NPOV states all sources and all viewpoints should be added with their reliable sources. Whose viewpoint has not been inserted?

2. The article relies rather heavily on one source, the Encyclopedia Iranica article, I am not convinced this is a particularly good source. Darius is one of the most important rulers in ancient history, there must be a fairly large amount of material on him.

Encyclopedia Iranica is an authority on Zoroastrian/Iranian studies. Why don't you think it is a "good source" (I'm assuming that means reliable source) ? As well, why don't you help by looking for some sources?

Most educated people with some knowledge of ancient history will have heard of the Persian Empire, by comparison the term Achmaenied is rather obscure.

The Persian Empire page redirects to Achaemenid Empire. Consensus says Achaemenid is the better term to use. warrior4321 02:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

NPOV tag

Please state what is "disputed" as just placing tags is unhelpful. warrior4321 23:59, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

What is disputed is that all mention of revisionist views of Bardiya, that he was not an impostor, has been deleted by Warrior4321's edits. They have also deleted all mention of the suggestion that Darius killed Cambyses II. I will probably change this myself given time, but its getting late tonight. PatGallacher (talk) 00:11, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

The source that mentioned that Darius may have killed Cambyses was deleted because there was no page number. Page numbers for sources are a necessity for GA criteria, which is what I am thriving to achieve with this article. As far as all mention of revisionist views of Bardiya, that he was not an impostor, has been deleted by Warrior4321's edits goes, please provide some diffs. warrior4321 00:18, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you may have missed something. I removed the book because no page numbers were given from that same book. Could you please provide a page number for the book? warrior4321 00:31, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Do a diff between the last version before your recent edits and the version after the first 2 of these edits (before somebody else chipped in). This could be a misuse of the GA criteria, since if applied consistently it could mean deleting all sorts of legitimate material from articles which aren't in too bad shape. I cannot provide a page number just like that, but if that's the problem then there is a relevant flag which can be added to the article. PatGallacher (talk) 00:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

No, page numbers are a method of checking said information. It's understandable that you may not be able to provide a page number right now, but will you ever be able to? I am open to the fact that you may not have the book right in front of you right now, or it is late at night and you'd rather do it in the morning etc. but will you be able to give the page number anytime soon? If you are using that source to back up your claims and to use it as evidence then you should (now or later) provide a page number. warrior4321 01:08, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Darius I of Persia/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tea with toast (talk) 19:29, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Issues needed to be addressed before final review

References are of the 8 March 2010 version

1. Ref 2 is a broken link, this must be fixed, or a new source found
2. I am skeptical of ref 4, which refers to the book " Classic Biblical Baby Names: Timeless Names for Modern Parents". I find that such a book is not suitable for the standards of an encyclopedia. I am also doubtful that it supports the text "The generous funding of the temple gave Darius and his successors the support of the Jewish priesthood." Is there not a more appropriate source to support that sentence?

I will place this review "On hold" until the first issue is resolved and the second issue is either resolved or explained here. --Tea with toast (talk) 01:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Understood, worked on the issues. Are they fixed? Thanks for providing me with the extra time I requested. warrior4321 05:42, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for taking care of these details. Since you found two other refs to support the statement made in #2, I think the "Baby names" book referenced should be removed entirely. Additionally, the list of book references should be alphabetized by author. --Tea with toast (talk) 17:13, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Article assessment

I find that this article meets the good article criteria:

1. The article is well written.
2. The article is factually accurate and verifiable.
3. The article addresses the main topics in an appropriate level of detail.
4. The article is not biased and is written in a neutral.
5. The article is stable and is not undergoing an edit war.
6. The article contains suitable images with appropriate captions.

--Tea with toast (talk) 17:13, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the review! I am glad that this has passed GA. I will work towards making it FA, thanks again! warrior4321 17:39, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

More on review

In my view, this article does not yet meet GA criteria, and is being artificially pushed for GA status before it is ready. It is not stable as it is the subject of a significant content disupute about whether there should be mention of revisionist or critical accounts of Darius' seizure of power. In my view, without mention of such accounts, it fails NPOV. I have a few lesser criticisms. PatGallacher (talk) 02:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

MOS:APPENDIX

The sequenced list below, is copied directly from MOS:APPENDIX. Items marked in bold, are ones of particular interest, which pertain specifically to this article.

1. Works or Publications or Bibliography
2. See also
3. Notes and/or References
4. Further reading
5. External links (It is especially important that this section appears last)
6. Succession boxes
7. Navigational templates (footer navboxes)
8. Categories
9. Stub templates
10. Interlanguage links

Why is the WP:MoS being challenged in this case, and reverted whenever I attempt to adjust it accordingly? Why the insistence to erroneously place the "References" section before the "Bibliography" section? I don't get the problem here, and hardly see my adjustments as a matter for dispute. -- WikHead (talk) 08:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Did you even click the link for the works or publications section? It says "Contents: A bulleted list, usually ordered chronologically, of the works created by the subject of the article." The "bibliography" section is for the works created by the article subject. Those books were not written by Darius, and hence do not need to be above or below anything. It can stay as it is. warrior4321 12:18, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Which leads to my second point... that the "Bibliography" section is incorrectly named, and should be renamed to "Further reading"... at which point, it can remain where it is. The succession boxes however, should appear below that, but they aren't necessarily of any major concern to me. -- WikHead (talk) 12:57, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

It is not "further reading". It is part of the references. Please read MOS:APPENDIX first, before starting discussions and having me continuously copy paste part of the article to you.

"Further Reading" : Contents: A bulleted list, usually alphabetized, of a reasonable number of recommended publications that do not appear elsewhere in the article and were not used to verify article content. warrior4321 23:27, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Inconsistent lifespan dates?

Resolved

Is there an inconsistency here? Darius' life is listed as 550–486 at the top, and 519-465 at the bottom. Lee merrill (talk) 23:15, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

 Fixed. WarriorForThreeToOne 23:19, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 2011

Darius I of Persia → Darius I — We have Darius II Ochus and Darius III Codomannus. If the reader needs reminding that any of these guys was Persian, it's not Darius I. I would also think Darius the Great and improvement, but I think the proposed title is more consistent with our guidelines, our other articles and (perhaps) the reliable sources. — Srnec (talk) 23:33, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

The current names of these other two Dariuses is controversial and there is a move request in progress in relation to Darius III. Darius I would be ok if there was not the need to disambiguate him from Darius of Pontus. See WP:NCROY. PatGallacher (talk) 00:42, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

WP:NCROY is, by its wording, limited to "European monarchs since the fall of the Western Roman Empire (but not to the Byzantine Emperors), because they share much the same stock of names." Neither the reason, nor the rule, apply here; the ancient Kings have been disambiguated by nicknames and numbers (when necessary, as it is not here) for centuries. The present title is unnecessary, and it is opposed to scholarly usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:20, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

This guideline can still be extended to other cultures where different kingdoms share a stock of names. We need to disambiguate this person from Darius of Pontus. PatGallacher (talk) 15:42, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

No, we don't. For one thing, they're already disambiguated; much more importantly, Darius of Pontus is mentioned in 7 books; Darius (or rather Darius' involvement with a single battle - to make sure it is this Darius) is mentioned in 49,000. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support but prefer Darius, as primary usage of the name (over even his successors on the throne of Persia, much less transient Roman puppet princes). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:25, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
• Having looked into this further I have had second thoughts, I now support this move. Darius of Pontus is a fairly obscure figure who should not obstruct putting the Persian rulers at the simplest title, although we may still need a hatnote to him or Darius. I am not strongly opposed to moving this article to "Darius the Great", but I would oppose moving it to plain "Darius", for reasons I could go into. PatGallacher (talk) 15:57, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
  • So what reasons do you oppose to WP:PRIMARYUSAGE? Inquiring minds want to know.;-> Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Because he isn't that much better known than Darius III, although admittedly the others apart from these 2 are rather obscure. I recognise that Darius I was undoubtedly the more successful ruler, and some ancient historians may regard him as more important for his role in stabilising the Persian empire. However, our view of the Persians comes mainly through Greek eyes, and some people may regard Darius III as the better-known because he was the main opponent of Alexander the Great, a very important historical figure. PatGallacher (talk) 17:01, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
      • The question is, I think, whether Marathon is much better known than Arbela. That seems to me clear. Add that the first Darius (the only one to be known as simple "Darius" at first reference) refounded the Persian state, wrote the Behistun inscription (which is also the first sure evidence of Zoroastrianism as a state religion), is mentioned in the Bible (which Codomannus is not), and we have primary usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support but should be "Darius the Great". He is, with modest regards, the most important figure of ancient world. Not because of having from macedonia and egypt to indus river under his rule (which British had more of that), but because he changed the world: 1. administration of empire, 2. tolerance (he even rejected being called "god of egypt" as kambiz before him would have accepted) 3. the art of impressive speech 4. economical reforms and law and order... and 100s more. these changes were not like "change of taste and colour" it was change of the sort "0 to 1".. in short: his work remained in one way or another forever. Also wp:name allows change from "Darius I" to "Darius the Great".Xashaiar (talk) 17:42, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Here is something I strongly oppose. No; we do not use POV titles unless, as with Charlemagne, they are clearly what the subject is most commonly known; but Darius the Great is much less common than Darius I and either is vastly less common than simple Darius. (Since there are only three Darii, and the other two are less well known than their ancestor, the false positives do not account for this.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

No Septentrionalis. Your link does not say what you wrote "Darius the Great is much less common than Darius I". The reason: In any text the author usually writes "one or two times" the complete "Darius the Great"/or "Darius I the Great" and then for natural reasons write "Darius I"/or "Darius". That's the way "the cambridge histories" (of Iran, ancient, ...) use the term. So we must be a bit careful when we refer to google searches ... Xashaiar (talk) 18:01, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

No. Ngram counts books, not individual hits. If they did not, by your own argument, Darius would be hundreds of times more common, not merely a few dozen. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Keep It Simple Stupid. These 3 Persian monarchs should be described as Darius I, Darius II and Darius III. PatGallacher (talk) 19:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Reversion of date formats

I propose that the date format be reverted from BCE/CE to BC/AD as the BCE/CE edits have violated WP:ERA by not being discussed and reaching a consensus on this article's talk page. If you are going to change the date formats please propose it on the talk page and not suddenly implement it, that violates the policy that was created to stop such actions. Please voice objections and reasons against the reversion of date formats now. 78.146.132.102 (talk) 20:37, 19 March 2011 (UTC)