Talk:List of people excommunicated by the Catholic Church

Error about Sinead

It states here that Sinead was excommunicated for joining the Palmarian Catholics. Palmarians do not attempt to ordain women. Also, on Sinead's own site, it states that she attempted to be ordained by the Independent Catholics. So this should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.146.37.103 (talk) 13:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Category

I think that this should be category stub, just like category former roman catholics

Communism Party & Communism

In 1 july 1949, there was a declaration of "ipso facto" excommunication of everybody connected with communist party (Decretum, 1 July 1949, in Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 1949, p. 334.)

Everybody

"Everybody in South America who took up arms against the Spanish and Portuguese monarchies under Leo XIII"

This statement has a problem. That being Pope Leo XIII]'s reign began in 1878, this is decades after the Spanish and Portuguese colonies gained independence. Simón Bolívar, José de San Martín, and Bernardo O'Higgins were all dead by 1850. The only monarchy in South America in 1878 was the Dutch and the English who were not Catholic. I'm guessing an earlier Leo is meant so I'll alter.--T. Anthony 14:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Guessing? How about citing or removing? I'm not saying this didn't happen, but I can't find a cite on the internet:

• Every Christian in South America who took up arms against the Spanish and Portuguese monarchies under Leo XII(Later rescinded)

Good luck -- SECisek 06:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

mourad-henry@hotmail.fr

ton msn ya henry dima henry toujour

I thought I heard something about North America being excommunicated in the last couple of years because we are "too gay" or something like that. Although I think I might of heard that on the Daily Show, which is not always right (even though it is almost always funny) Highlandlord 05:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Brendan Behan

Anecdote has it that the priest who was consulted to preside over Brendan Behan's marriage ceremony expressed reservations. Behan, as a (former?) member of the IRA (Irish Republican Army)--a secret oath-bound association--had automatically excommunicated himself (see also Fenians, in the 19th century list). When told that there would be difficulties, because he was excommunicted, Behan's reply was, "Then, so is Eamon deValera!" The marriage took place.--PeadarMaguidhir 17:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Stem cell researchers

Would anyone please provide a reference for that all stem cell researchers are in fact officially excommunicated by the RCC? I believe that the Cardinal doesn't have the canonical authority to excommunicate all stem cell researchers. I recommend deleting this entry. 207.239.38.159 06:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The weblink provided as a source for the claim that stem cell researchers are excommunicated by the RCC just states that it is a cardinal's proposal. Since no source was provided corroborating that they are actually excommunicated, I removed it for the time being. Gugganij 23:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

St. Stanislaus Kostka

The parish council and pastor of a St. Louis area church were excommunicated for refusing to acknowledge Archbishop Burke's authority.

If he is notable enough and/or has an article, add him in then. Wikipedia can be edited, by the way! -- the GREAT Gavini 17:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ebrard

Ebrard is not excommunicated even though the bishops consider him to have 'excluded himself from communion', this is not the same as excommunication, a state of excommunication latae sententiae has not been suitably verified, therefore deleting the entry --Isolani 10:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Hitler

I'd like to know when and for what Hitler was excommunicated for. There is no mention in the main Hitler article or the article about his religious beliefs that he was excommunicated. 64.230.86.99 (talk) 23:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Claymore

Adolf Hitler was never excommunicated. Some people have suggested that he should have been. Did the RC leadership ever consider excommunicating him? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 00:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Hitler was never excommunicated by name, but as leader of the Nazi party, he was obviously included within the February 1931 edict of the Conference of German Bishops excommunicating all leaders and active members of the Nazi party.: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.9.3.194 (talk) 21:17, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Proposal to remove uncited items

The current list has too many questionable entries. I would like to propose that we remove all elements of the list that do not have an accompanying citation. Entries can be re-added as citations are found. I believe that it would be better to have an incomplete list than an inaccurate one. However, before doing this, I will message Wikipedia:WikiProject Catholicism asking that citations be added for as many as possible in the current list-- after a week or so, any still remaining without citations will be removed? Does anyone disagree with this approach? JRP (talk) 00:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

No one should be on any list ("notables", for example), without having a citation as to why they belong in that particular list (may have bio article, but no indication of belonging to some other article such as this one). This is doubly true for living persons. Thanks for pointing that out! Student7 (talk) 11:18, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Uncited material shouldn't be on any lists. What might work here is to make a separate list of the uncited names, and then, a bit later, remove all those that aren't cited, thus allowing individuals to try to find citations over maybe a longer period of time. Maybe the list of uncited names could be placed here for temporary storage. Would that be acceptable to the rest of you? John Carter (talk) 14:08, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll move them all to the Talk page. I'm also going to try and verify as many of the references as convenient (web sources, mostly) as a double-check. Still, I want to wait a few days before pulling the trigger on this. JRP (talk) 14:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

My thought would be simply to delete, or if you are feeling generous, comment out, all redlinked items without footnotes. Couldn't you just <fact> the rest? Delete them next month or something? Just a thought. Student7 (talk) 22:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Redlinks

If someone has a red link should they be included in the list? Should there be a notability hurdle? JASpencer (talk) 08:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Wikipedia is about notables. This is a high level article (I make exceptions for real low level ones). People from the past must have an article. Otherwise why are they there and how can we verify? Recent people might not have an article for a short time. Maybe we could make exceptions with good references for awhile? (as discussed earlier, should have a footnote anyway to verify that they were excommunicated). Student7 (talk) 13:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I hope that this isn't as much of a problem as it sounds. (But I could be mistaken.) It seems to me that for any individual important enough for the church to formally do a writ of excommunication (or whatever the appropriate term is), they must be in some way notable either as an individual or as a group. (So, individual members of the "Danube Seven"-- one early group of female priests-- might not be notable, but their leader probably is and they may be notable as a group as well.) Maybe this doesn't hold and the church excommunicates people every week, but I suspect that we will find that many of them will be notable enough to have an article eventually. JRP (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Papal Decree

On reviewing the elements of this list and some of the comments above, I would like to propose that we limit the list to excommunications by papal decree only. A number of the excommunications from modern history on this list were done "automatically", even if a bishop subsequently declared the excommunication official. I feel that limiting it to Papal Decree (papal bull?) will have two benefits:

1. Everyone on the list will be notable and red links can be made into articles. Any person that has garnered enough attention from the Holy See that they get excommunicated in this way is notable.
2. The list will be finite. It is impossible for this list to ever be complete if we include automatic excommunications of any type, even if it is subsequently confirmed in the media or by a bishop, etc.

Unfortunately, I'm not an expert on this topic and so I'll ask for opinions from the Wikiproject (directing them to the discussion here). It could be that there simply are not that many that are this formal, but on the whole I think a more restricted list would be more valuable. I am very interested in alternate viewpoints however. JRP (talk) 02:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Makes a lot of sense. Historians and long-term Wikipedians should appreciate it. Scandal/tabloid people won't like it of course. This probably chops out most if not all the people in the 20th century.Student7 (talk) 11:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Papal Decree - followup

After a suitably long gap, I've followed-through and removed uncited items and followed up on all present citations to verify them. This makes for a considerably shorter list, but it means that it's a verifiable shorter list and I'm positive that, with a little work, we can get it back up to its prior length with references intact. I had hoped to have time to get this worked through with more of my own research, but I haven't had the time. Here is the old version, if anyone wants to troll through this for more items to readd: [1] JRP (talk) 03:45, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

BTW: Even this is imperfect. It's hard to tell, short of a link to vatican.va, is news reports really understand the types of excommunication and whether we can read from them enough to consider whether their stories are excommunications for this list. I've made my best effort, but someone with more time may want to dig further. JRP (talk) 04:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know it is the ordinary that declares a person excommunicate, the person excommunicated may then appeal to Rome - which suspends the declaration until ratified by Rome - that being said. Limiting the excommunications to those declared by papal bull would be unduly limiting. Some, excommunicated by their ordinaries have not appealed to Rome, canonically, theyr are excommunicate but yet would not be added to this list. I would suggest all be included that are canonically excommunicated. You'll find their number to be relatively small - which will meet your concerns over spurious additions to the list.--Scarpe (talk) 12:37, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable, but I'm afraid that I don't know the definition. Can you help me to know what that means from a research standpoint and adjust the summary at the top of the list accordingly? I was hoping to limit the number to verifiable excommunications and the Vatican has always been good about keeping a paper trail for such things, even to antiquity. But if this still gets rid of the "automatic" excommunications which are difficult to prove and not verifiable. (In cases where a class of individuals are excommunicated, if we include them, we should denote the class and not try and fill in individuals which may apply.) JRP (talk) 15:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Check Ed Peters' excellent weblog and excommunication blotter. ( http://www.canonlaw.info/canonlaw_excomm.htm )

You are right in being somewhat wary of 'automatic' excommunications. And I would agree in desisting from adding anyone to the list merely because someone claims that A committed act X, and act X is punishable by automatic excommunication. Generally I would not 'count' an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication until the existence of this excommunication is declared by that person's ordinary. This is the criterion used by Ed Peters, and he is as bona fide a canon lawyer as they come. I would *not* include a latae sententiae excommunication if it comes from anyone else. An auxiliary bishop does not have jurisdiction, if an auxiliary therefore says A is excommunicated it does not have canonical effect. Neither do pronouncements by random cardinals, unless they happen to be speaking in official capacity as members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith or one of the Church courts. A hard and fats rule: include it if it is on Dr. Peter's 'blotter'. Only adding those excommunicated under the provision of some papal documemt is much, much too narrow. --Scarpe (talk) 14:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Joe Biden

This is not a list of people who have "indicated effective excommunication" but who have been officially excommunicated. Biden's support of abortion has certainly got himself into serious trouble but he has not been excommunicated officially an in person. JASpencer (talk) 16:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Why have so many people dissapeared from this list???

I was shocked to see that many are missing what happened with them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumaterana (talk • contribs) 22:32, 26 September 2008 (UTC) See the conversations above. Unsourced items and "automatic excommunications" have been removed from this list. JRP (talk) 23:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Citation needed tags

I've removed the citation needed tags by many of the people in this list. For one, all of the people here are well-known excommunicatees (real word?) and their excommunications are common textbook knowledge. If a citation is truly needed, I'm sure one of the citations on their own pages (of which they are of course linked to) discuss it, and if necessary the reader can look into one of those. CaptainP (talk) 02:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Recent St. Louis excommunications

I was wondering whether the relatively recent excommunications of Womenpriests Rose Hudson and Elsie McGrath (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/84C2EC265110978A8625740C000C5798?OpenDocument) would fall under the section of "automatic" excommunications and be excluded from this list or not. Pokeronskis (talk) 01:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Jacqueline Kennedy, of all people

While doing some research on an unrelated matter I found a number of articles relating to her having been excommunicated in November of 1968. This one [2] discusses Cardinal Cushing responding to a Vatican announcement that she was a "public sinner" (for having married a divorced Orthodox Christian) and had been excommunicated. The details may be in one of these articles [3] [4] [5] [6] (especially the last, because the words "formal excommunication" are in a ten-word extract) might contain clues, but I can't afford $3.95 an article to say whether they do or not. I can say that many newspapers and television reports of the time stated categorically that she had been excommunicated. Does anyone have any actual proof that one could refer to without paying $3.95 per article, one way or the other? --NellieBly (talk) 18:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

"Public sinner" would be insufficient IMO to excommunicate someone unless they had some position of authority or were publicly arguing with the church (okay, the Brazil abortion case wasn't in either category, but nevertheless...). People excommunicate themselves in any event. In rare cases, it is announced by the Vatican and shows up here. Most often it is simply unofficial. People who married a divorced person should not receive the sacraments. Kennedy knew this. Did she even attend church? Big deal when Jack was President and they were trying to impress the electorate with religious observance. Probably moot after she was widowed.Student7 (talk) 21:35, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I was actually looking for actual evidence that she'd been excommunicated. Do you have any? --NellieBly (talk) 06:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

St. Stanislaus church council et al. (St. Louis)

I don't have handy cites or refs, but I seem to recall a few years ago that then-Archbishop Raymond Burke declared that the above church council (parish council? I forget the exact term) had excommunicated themselves. Definitely a group to be added, will look later, or others might check the archives of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (try [www.stltoday.com STLToday.com]). umrguy42 17:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Comprehensive list

Does this article intend to be (or purport to be) an all-inclusive list? I'd think excommunications via Papal Bull would be easily verifiable; if the list is indeed holistic, I'd recommend noting it in the lead section (if not, that should be noted too). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:33, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Folks in Brazil

Should the people mentioned in this article be included? Vatican defends Brazil excommunication --MicahBrwn (talk) 07:50, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

9-year old girl excommunicated?

I wasn't able to read the source given, because it was not in English and I didn't feel like reading it through a clumsy translation, but all of the sources I've seen say she was not excommunicated. They say the church spared her because of her age and instead excommunicated everyone involved in the abortion. Can anyone clarify? Here's my source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm

Who is eligible

An editor professed to be surprised that the rapist was not excommunicated. Assuming good faith, as we always must, the church announces the fact that (in the church's opinion) people have excommunicated themselves from God (turned from God). A rapist might have repented. It was clear that the mother had not. The perp was guilty of repeated rape, the mother guilty of assisting (abetting) a murder (in the church's view), a bit more serious. Also, there was the publicity involved. Since the abortion was public knowledge, so was the excommunication.

The rapist might have excommunicated himself. The church took no stand because it wasn't public knowledge what his stand was.

There are plenty of rapists of nine-year olds in the US, maybe 20 a year (I'm guessing here). Most are handled "by the authorities" without publicity, the victims and families being essentially "unchurched." Probably a couple of these, migrants, illegals, come to term as well. No publicity. tv never gets out that far. Brazil is a tempest in a teapot considering our own backyard. So much for "News at 11." Student7 (talk) 11:37, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Reverse chronology

Why is the article structured in reverse chronology which differs from all other articles. This seems WP:POV or WP:SOAP-ish by overemphasizing current events over previous ones. tv-ish. Student7 (talk) 13:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Schism vs. Excommunication

It would be a good idea to try to better distinguish schism and excommunication, a distinction that came after the Second Vatican Council. For instance, in Unitatis Redintegratio, the Council says that some schisms are incomplete, while other schisms are complete. The Arian schism was a complete schism, while the Eastern schism is still an imcomplete schism since the excommunication has been lifted. ADM (talk) 00:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

"a distinction that came after the Second Vatican Council" - nonsense. This distinction is nothing new and nothing hard to grasp. Excommunication is a punishment (no matter whether latae setentiae or imposed) for certain acts, among which are apostasy, heresy, schism etc. Str1977 ^(talk) 12:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I was thinking of the concept of ecclesiology of communion, a conciliar notion that has had a significant impact on Catholic-Orthodox relations and Catholic-Protestant relations, since it defines the Church in terms of interpersonal communication of the bishops and the faithful. It would be intesting if we had an entry on that, it could help with our series of articles on ecumenism. ADM (talk) 12:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

In what sense was there ever a complete schism between West & East? Until the 1720s there were often people simultaneously in communion with both sides. Peter jackson (talk) 16:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Cerularius

He was excommunicated by papal legate(s) after the Pope had died & before the next was elected. Legal validity questionable. Peter jackson (talk) 10:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I addressed that but want to clarify that the "before the next was elected" doesn't really make any difference. The legates were legates of Leo IX and the bull was written by Leo IX and hence the bull became void with Leo's death. The election of a new Pope did not change that. In order to be valid the new Pope would have to issue a new bull. Str1977 ^(talk) 12:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Quite so. I mentioned that simply to answer a hypothetical objection that the hypothetical new Pope might have done so. Peter jackson (talk) 16:17, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Western church

A qualifier was removed by a respected editor. The qualifier read "Prior to the sixteenth century, there was a single church in Western Europe which called itself 'Christian' not 'Roman Catholic.'" The editor commented that this was not true, that the Orthodox had split off earlier. This is true, but they were the Eastern Church, not Western. The Western church has essentially been one monolith from the 1st century through the 15th. All church history in the West derives from this single, earlier history. It was not "The Roman Catholic Church" up to that point. It was "the" church. Student7 (talk) 11:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Still, the note that was removed was false. There never was a body calling itself the "Christian church" anywhere. The body in existence before and after the Protestant reformation called and calls itself Catholic Church. The pre-protestant body did not split into two new groups but Protestant groups split off from the Catholic church. Str1977 ^(talk) 12:07, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree that they may have called themselves "Catholic Church" to distinguish themselves from the Orthodox. The church did split in two though. The Vatican has a strong political hold on Rome. Nobody was going to walk off with that! Luther had the protection of his ruler(s), an essential element in a split. He doubtless considered his church Catholic, as did Henry VIII right up until the latter's death. So it was a split from the splitters pov. Each considered themselves the one true (catholic) church. From Rome's pov, of course, heresy.

Before that, a single church in the West. Student7 (talk) 21:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

There's rather a difference, though, isn't there? "The Pope ... seceded with all his followers from the Church of England" is a joke. The term "the Christian Church" is common enough. It seems to be mainly used as a sort of weasel term, meaning "our lot". Peter jackson (talk) 16:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. The Western church did this in it's entirety up until 1450 or so. Not half the church. Or one-third. The flip side is "credible deniability." "We seceded so we will decide which history we want!" What you did that we (today) like, "us Christians" did. What you did that we don't like (as of today), "Roman Catholics did." This doesn't seem factually accurate to me.

Does the government of Alabama today teach that the government of the United States issued the "Emancipation Proclamation?" Maybe more appropriately, does the United States, having seceded from England, still have "common law" up until the time it seceded? Stare decisis (sp) up until that time. Laws issued by English courts until that time are (were) part of American law history. Student7 (talk) 21:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Uta Ranke-Heinemann

I think there is a case to be made that Ranke-Heinemann was really excommunicated. One of the reasons that leads me to think this is that the article about her names two specific canons that were used at the time, namely canon 1364 and canon 751, with one anonymous user adding them to the entry at one point. [7] It is unclear who exactly excommunicated her, as the name of the bishop is not provded, but it would be a good idea to retrace the identity of this ordinary. Also, the virgin birth is a fairly important dogma in Christianity and denying it could well be a cause for such an excommunication, since it is very similar to denying the divinity of Christ. Finally, Ranke-Heinemann did also lose her right to teach, or missio canonica, but this is not the same as an excommunication and it is likely that both sanctions were applied in a relatively short period. ADM (talk) 12:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

No, no, no, no! There is no case for her inclusion here and since nonsensical "sources" keep on being added I remove her now entirely.

Thus far the only source is claims by that woman herself. It is true that her behaviour has merited automatic excommunication many times BUT this list specifically says that those are only included IF confirmed by a bishop. With such information (and I don't believe there can be because no bishop ever confirmed this) she stays out.

Str1977 ^(talk) 08:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Nazis excommunicated

See discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Catholicism#Excommunication_.22too_good_to_be_true.22. This document surfaced on Vatican.org and is a primary document. We need someone to analyze it. We can quote the analysis of it, if useful. However, editors have already done that and it does not appear to be of much use. Interesting. That is about it. 1931 was way too early for anyone to "excommunicate" anyone. Everybody except Jews, including most Americans and maybe English were still enthusiastic about "Mr. Hitler" at that time. Eight years later, not quite so enthusiastic anymore! But it took time. Student7 (talk) 20:06, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Why did you delete the discussion I started? And this discussion you reference is simply a bunch of editors saying that they don't understand German. Tellingly, one does say he sees a reference to the Nazis being separated/forbidden from the sacraments. What precisely do you believe excommunication is? I understand the document. It separates active members and leaders of the Nazi party from the sacraments. As for individuals who voted or supported the Nazis, their future participation in the sacraments should be assessed on a case-by-case basis, largely dependent on their motivations in supporting the Nazis. I have restored the link because what I have recited above is an accurate description of the document.

No. There were German readers and Italian readers since it is in both languages. No, Nazis are not excommunicated. This would be really big news if it were true. No one wanted to do anything bad to Nazis (except the Jews of course) in 1931. They were considered the "saviors" of Germany. The fact that the church had scruples (which are reflected in the document) is kind of significant, I suppose.

The document is a primary document. Even if what you said is true, Wikipedia cannot use it because of WP:PRIMARY. Student7 (talk) 21:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

As someone who understands German, I wonder on what authority you say that the document does not say what I can plainly see that it says. Moreover, as I read the primary source requirements, this is plainly a document which can be cited, because it is verifiable as originating from the Vatican archives.:: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.9.3.194 (talk) 22:51, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

You may be right, but we are still trying to use a "primary" document which we shouldm't be doing. We need to ask what this hasn't been processed by any unbiased reliable source. So far, that hasn't happened. Remember CBS "finding" documents purporting to show Bush missing Guard duty? These looked authentic but were, in retrospect, probably bogus. Student7 (talk) 00:41, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I gather we have accepted that the document is authentic; satisfies the primary source requirements; clearly provides for the separation of the Nazi leaders from the Catholic sacraments (i.e., excommunication); and that this commentary and link stays. Thank you for the discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.11.153 (talk) 11:51, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree this has been resolved and should stay; apparently there is one editor who seeks to impose his view despite this resolution —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.220.120.82 (talk) 00:25, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

The following is a copy of a summary of one contributor from Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Catholicism#Excommunication_.22too_good_to_be_true.22 where it was academically discussed last year.

(My Italian is far from good; but I know some French, a little Spanish and (very) little Latin, and this helps me some in reading Italian. My German is better. The following short summary is based on that understanding.)

The Italian text is a summary of the enclosed German one, a pastoral letter. The text is authorised by "the archbishops and bishops of Bavaria". There is no indication of either an approval or a disapproval from the Vatican authorities of their decisions. The text considers the National Socialism party ideology as consisting of two parts, a political on the one hand, and a cultural and religious on the other. The bishops declare that they in no way want to infringe on the right of the Nazis to have their political opinion; but that as regards religion the views and the "cultural struggle" (Kulturkampf) is unacceptible, and not compatible with Christ's Christianity (i.e., with Christianity in a true sence). Therefore, the full party programme is condemned [in the same manner and with similar consequenses] as was the old liberalism and is socialism. The clergy are completely forbidden to participate in the party activities, as they have enough understanding to know that the religeous standpoints are unacceptable. As for common people, if they support the Nazism just because of its political side, but remain true to the church, it is OK; if they also understand and support the party programme points about religion, it is unacceptible. Party members who have been barred from pertaking in sacraments and die in an unshrifted condition, still may get a Christian burial, if they during their lives in their acts otherwise stayed loyal to and peaceful towards the Church. If in the future the party should turn to methods such as the Communists use, which is hoped not to be the case, then the barring of remaining followers from the church and its sacraments will be absolute.

I think this could be considered as a condemnation of the NSDAP as a whole; however, not for the reasons we with hindsight might wish. The political views are considered as permissible, and no (unacceptable) bad concrete practices (like violent anti-Jewish campaigns) are recognised to exist. More important: The document in no way clarifies whether or not the church as a whole (i.e., the Holy See) participated in or at least upheld the local decision in Bavaria. However, if the decision was endorsed by the Vatican, it certainly involved excommunication of, or at least an interdict against, those Nazis who actively upheld the whole party programme. JoergenB (talk) 00:43, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

The point being that this was a warning letter. It is a primary document which should never be used anyway since the original could be a forgery. Academics need to look this over and analyze it. That is what Wikipedia is all about. We quote secondary sources, not primary ones. No academic has reviewed it. QED, there is nothing to review. Nothing happened as a result of this letter. Student7 (talk) 13:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

You are just being obstinate. The consensus which has been reached is contrary to your thoughts, and yet you insist on continuing to delete something everyone else has agreed should stay. Quite to the contrary, your continued deletions are vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.11.153 (talk) 15:44, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Student7. It is not appropriate to use this document to say that any Nazis were excommunicated from the Roman is a reCatholic Church.

The German text, at least, does not say that any Nazis have been excommunicated. It indicates that some of them may be ineligible to receive the sacraments—something that happens whenever a person is in a state of mortal sin—but it does not say that any of them have been excommunicated. As such, it appears to equate being a Nazi with, say, theft or adultery, rather than, say, apostasy or breaking the seal of confession. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

What it says is that the leaders of the Nazi parties are separated from the sacraments -- and that means excommunicated. I don't think you understand what excommunicated means. A person who is in a state of mortal sin is to refrain from participation from the sacraments until he or she has confessed. However, there are some mortal sins which are considered grounds for excommunication, including apostasy, and the German text states clearly that assuming a leadership role in the Nazi party constitutes a rejection of the Church and its teachings. Your analysis of this document is not correct. There is simply no doubt that this document reflects the decision of the German bishops (papal approval is not necessary, since local bishops possess the authority to excommunicate those within their diocese) that leadership in the Nazi party was contrary to the teachings of the Church and that the leaders of the Nazi party were excommunicated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.11.153 (talk • contribs) 23:25, 12 March 2011

Perhaps you would like to provide me with a direct quotation (in the original language, please) from the document that you believe supports your claim. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the point of that exercise would be, other than to have me waste my time transcribing what the document already says. There is a link; click on it. If you understood German, you could simply read the document for yourself. But my inputting the same language here is going to make you suddenly understand German. Suffice to say that you have already agreed that, by virtue of this document, leadership of the Nazi party was separated from the sacraments. You liken that punishment to the punishment incurred by someone who has committed a mortal sin. But the person in mortal sin can confess and be freed to take the sacraments again. However, the only way a Nazi leader could have been freed to take the sacraments again would have been to confess, denounce his position with the Nazi party, and seek to be restored to full communion. By persisting in a state of mortal sin (i.e., by remaining within the leadership of the Nazi party), the individual could never be restored to full communion, and thus would remain permanently separated from the sacraments -- meaning he is excommunicated. You have already acknowledged the facts essential to the conclusion that this document excommunicated the Nazi leaders; and the distinction you seek to draw is without validity from a theological perspective. Even using your language, by persisting in a position of leadership within the Nazi party, the individual was permanently separating himself from the sacraments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.11.153 (talk) 13:57, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I thought this was already resolved. The document is pretty clear concerning the excommunication of the Nazi leaders. It never ceases to amaze me that, when something involves the Catholic Church, any fact which places it in a positive light, no matter how beyond dispute, can be disputed nonetheless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.220.120.82 (talk) 13:54, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

We don't know whether this is authentic or not. Could be a bunch of memoranda that was intended to become an official document but never did. That is the trouble with primary sources. It may also explain the reason why it is in several languages instead of only being in German, which would address the target audience. It is not specific and "denies the sacraments" rather than using the clearer "excommunication."

It's like excommunicating unrepentant murderers. It seems generic.

This is a "smoking gun." But what we are missing is a victim. No one screamed when this supposedly happened. IF it happened. The Germans and Nazis could have cared less. They did care when a smuggled pastoral note criticized the Nazis later. Priests were hauled off to concentration camps. That is how we know the note got there!

Not really sure this was ever released. We need to wait for academic research to reveal the history of this. If indeed, there is any history to reveal. Anything else is clearly WP:OR. Student7 (talk) 22:41, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I have a few comments. In brief, first of all, we should all of us try to be careful with our choices of words. Second, I disagree with Student7 on a few points, but agree with the essential conclusion.

• We should all of us avoid confusing "vandalism" with proper editing which is bad for other reasons. E.g., there is something we wikipedian editors often call POV-pushing; to pursue one's own personal opinion of view, without too much regard for relevant input from others. Usually, this is based on a strong conviction of knowing the truth. This type of editing is condemned by the wiki community; but it is not "vandalism", and should not be called "vandalism" - especially not in messages to newcomers who may not be aware of the differences.

• I do not think that there is any serious reason to fear that the documents we discuss are forged. If they were, the forgery would be technically very ingenious, but at the same time incredibly stupid. The dossier with the print in German and the letter in Italian has a diary number. If it is a forgery (but not a forgery by top echelons in the Vatican), then it would be revealed immeately by any archivalist at the Vatican having access to the dossiers from that year. Student7, if you really fear a falsification, then try to find someone in a position to ask for this simple control. Pending this, we should treat the dossier as an autentic primary source.

• Finally, I do not completely agree with you as regards primary sources. (These policies and recommendations are not completely unequivocal, and somewhat open to different interpretations.) In my opinion, if facts are obviously both clear from a primary source and relevant for an article, it is permissible to include them. We are not to do the interpretation of facts which often is necessary; nor a selection, compilation, and structuring of primary source facts, in order to reach "higher order conclusions" which are not explicit from the primary sources. There are still quite a number of relevant facts which we can and do fetch directly from primary sources.

With all this said, I still do not think that this dossier in itself merits the inclusion into a list of excommunications. The first reason is that to my limited understanding, this text is not about excommunication in the technical sense. As far as I understand, the RCC makes a distinction between several forms of punishment, and they rerserve "excommunication" for a more severe and absolute one (which includes the denial of the last rites and a Catholic burial). An excommunication either is automatic, or communicated privately to the 'excommunicee', or is declared openly (obliging all Catholics to abstain from most forms of contact with him/her). This is an encyclopedia, and as I wrote before, we should be careful with our choices of words. The German text does not suit the latter two cases; it might possibly be interpreted partly as a warning about automatic excommunication. (It does explicitly state that ordinary people should not be condemned for having contact with the Nazis or sympathising with them - as long as they do not share those parts of the party view which are not truly Christian. Thus, they may share the antisemitic and nationalistic ideas without any problem; these are not criticised. If the officials were officially excommunicated, on the other hand, good Catholics should not have more than rather limited contact with them. The Nazis only are criticised for the same reasons that earlier Liberals and Socialists were criticised, having to do with their standpoints as regards religious matters.

(Perhaps, actually, our article about "excommunication" is a bit misleading; it might need better clarification about differences between milder and more severe forms of separation of a Christian from the RCC. However, I'd prefer to leave this to people with greater insights than I have.)

Secondly, the decision is taken rater locally, and information is sent to the Curia; but the dossier does not contain anything about the response. Thus, we do not know whether or not the pastoral letter was approved or disapproved, or just passed over (which I think would count as more of an approval than the converse). We do not know if it was put into force - if e.g. actually ant party officials as a consequence were hindered from any participation in Church activities. What seems most clear is that the clergy is forbidden to partake in Nazi activities; and since the letter was made to the clergy, not to the Nazi officials, there is a much higher probability that this lead to some practical effects. For knowing more about the effects, we indeed need secondary sources.

In other words: If this source had shown that some Nazi officials were excommunicated, in an explicit and indisputable manner, I think that we could have used this as a source, although it is primary. However, IMHO, this is not the case. JoergenB (talk) 23:03, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I have a couple of points in response. First, excommunications are separations from the sacraments. The terms are synonymous. Second, excommunications can be done by the local bishops and their determination is binding on those within their dioceses. The Vatican's approval is not required. The Vatican can review, but to say that there was no indication that the Vatican approved or signed off on this determination is really of no consequence. In fact it is a rare case when the Vatican will interfere with the authority of the local bishop, or undermine the local bishop. Third, excommunications generally do not involve declarations that the ex-communicant is barred from last rites, a Catholic funeral, or burial in a consecrated place. Such determinations are reserved in the hopes that the ex-communicant repents and confesses prior to his or her death. If the ex-communicant remains excommunicated at the time of his or her death, he or she will likely be barred from these sacraments and rites. But the sincere hope of the Church, even when the ex-communicant is on the death bed, is that he or she will repent, ask to confess, ask for last rites, and seek re-communion with the Church. To declare in advance that the sacrament of last rites or the rite of a Catholic funeral/burial must be denied would preclude this hope of re-communion. For this reason, I don't think you can attach any significance to the fact that this document does not express an exclusion from last rites or a Catholic funeral/burial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.220.120.82 (talk) 00:01, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The amount of editing which has occurred to this comment and link in the past 24 hours is unconscionable. I have restored it to its original language. I propose we vote, up or down, on whether to leave it AS IS. I think it should stay because it is primary source which is clear on its face; plainly originates from the Vatican archives; and expresses that the leaders of the NSDAP were separated from the sacraments. Separation from the sacraments IS excommunication; the objection that the document does not use the word "excommunicate" is at best a translation issue, nothing more. Likewise, the objection that there is no record of Vatican ratification fails to appreciate that local bishops have the power to excommunicate and their discretion in this regard is rarely reviewed by the Vatican. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.220.120.82 (talk) 13:51, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi, again, user with the IP 173.220.120.82!

First, have you looked at your IP discussion page, i.e., at User talk:173.220.120.82? If not, please do! There are a number of suggestions of pages to look at for wikipedia beginners, and also a few immediate suggestions.

One immediate suggestion: Pleae, from now on, sign your contributions on talk pages!

Another tip: In general, we do not use voting as a means of resolving pure editorial questions. In the first place, we try to reach a "consensus" by discussion. When this doesn't work, we may continue by other means; but they do not involve the simple voting procedure you suggested. Wikipedia is not a democracy.

OK, back to the issue. I'm going to reverse the text you reinstated now. I think we should continue discussing, but independently of the outcome, that text is unacceptable. I am not sure I'm right about my understanding of what constitutes "excommunication" in the RCC, but I am sure of one thing. The documents we discuss do not concern Germany as a whole.

Please, reread the documents! Both the German and the Italian version refer to Bavarian archbishops and bishops. In the German texts, there is an explicit reference to the document being directed to the clergy in the eight dioceses in Bavaria (i. e., Bayern). The RCC of Germany to-day is organised in 27 dioceses; in 1931, the number should have been similar. No-where in the documents is Germany mentioned. No-where is "the Conference of German Bishops" mentioned. Bavaria is just a part of Germany; an important part, and the part which was the first stronghold of the Nazis; it was in its capital city, Munich (München) that Hitler made his first try at a violent take-over; still, just a part. Therefore, a text referring to "the Conference of German Bishops" simply is wrong - with no further interpretation necessary.

Secondly, reread section 4 carefully! This may be open for interpretation; but my understanding is that not all active members are barred from sacraments. The text (which, I remind you, is directed to the clergy in the first place) states that the admittance of a nazi must be decided on a case-to-case basis. The decisive factor should be, whether or not the nazi embraces the cultural part of the party programme, since this is the part not acceptible for the Church. As means for deciding this, the priest may consider the nazi's activities on behalf of the party; e.g., has (s)he clearly defended and propagated the whole party line (including the offending parts)?

The text as a whole contains two absolute prohibitions: The RCC clergy is forbidden participation in the NSDAP, and the nazis are forbidden to participate as uniformed groups in Church ceremonies.

The rest is much more unclear. I think there is some support for saying that the top leaders are forbidden the sacraments; but not all active party members. Again: The priests are left to decide, on a case to case basis, whether or not the nazi supports the cultural aspects of the party programme. The pastoral letter makes it fairly clear that top leaders or general spokesmen for the party hardly could avoid having agreed with these points; but does not extend this to all active members in general, and especially not to all who have just voted for the nazis. (The document does not explain how the priests are supposed to know how ther parish members voted; but since this primarily is a letter about pastoral care, I suppose that much of it is intended for them in their rôles as confessors.)

Best, JoergenB (talk) 17:21, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

It's going to take me a while to digest everything you have said, but I have reviewed the German text in section 4 and agree that the exclusion from the sacraments is not as to all "members" of the Nazi party, but rather as to the leaders only, with the case of members to be determined on a case-by-case basis. To the extent that the comment indicates that this punishment was directed to all members, you are correct, that is not accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.220.120.82 (talk) 17:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

You forgot to sign, e.g., by adding ~~~~ ;-) Best, JoergenB (talk) 17:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

To the anon:

I must not have been sufficiently clear. I do understand enough German to get (slowly) through those three pages, I have clicked the link and read the document, and I do not find any statement in it that says that Nazis are excommunicated. Furthermore, I showed it to a native speaker of German, and he also failed to find any statement in it that says that any Nazis were excommunicated. Being ineligible to receive "the Sacrament of the Altar" is not the same thing as "excommunicated". Exkommunikation does not appear in the document. Sünde (sin) does. Again, being in a state of mortal sin makes a person ineligible to receive the sacrament of the altar, but being in a state of mortal sin is not the same thing as excommunication.

Now—if I've overlooked something, feel free to provide a direct quotation. But I don't think I have. I think you're reading far too much into this document. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

This is my understanding, too; but I really don't know much about the finer nuances. If I understand the IP correctly, (s)he maintains that "prohibited from taking part in sacraments" is essentially synonymous with "excommunicated". Actually, I think that our article Excommunication describes the matter more or less in this manner. However, the Catholic Encyclopedia seems to make a distinction, and to consider excommunication as a more severe censure than just prohibiting sacraments; e.g., quoted from the article Interdict:

"Interdict differs from excommunication, in that it does not cut one off from the communion of the faithful or from Christian society, though the acts of religion forbidden in both cases are almost identical."

(All this - both that encyclopaedia and the 1931 documents we discuss - are older than 1983, whence the old canon law should apply, I guess.) So, I'd like to ask the IP whether or not there is a distinction between being deprived the rights to participates in sacraments by a personal interdict, and being deprived the same sacraments by an excommunication; and, if so, what (s)he thinks the difference is.

If in fact most readers (like me?) would tend to confuse two technically different censures, "interdict" and "excommunication", then we should clarify this better in our articles, and/ or change some names. ("List of persons excommunicated or interdicted by the Roman Catholic Church"??) JoergenB (talk) 19:56, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

1) It doesn't seem to make any difference to the debaters, but this does not name anybody. Excommunicating a group by presumed association is rather unusual.

2) We don't know whether the document was actually promulgated or not. Apparently in somebody's file someplace. Maybe it was signed and everything and something happened to whoever was supposed to send it out and it never got sent.

2 a) There is no independent confirmation as to what happened here. No research by anyone. What is happening here is clearly WP:OR. Someone is trying to put a spin on a piece of paper that has surfaced and no one can trace it's origins.

3) It is a primary document which we are not supposed to use. WP:PRIMARY. Student7 (talk) 20:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Here is my interpretation of the extent to which primary sources might be used: Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. Do you agree?

In this particular case, however, I think that interpretation is necessary. JoergenB (talk) 21:44, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

An interdiction is a censure generally given to one who has committed, but does not persist, in mortal sin. It is imposed to encourage penance and reconciliation. Since being a Nazi leader involves a persistence in mortal sin, it would be difficult to consider the censure discussed here an interdiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.11.153 (talk) 17:56, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

No, that's not true. Personal interdicts have been given as punishment, even after the person has reconciled. "Local" interdicts have been used as political tools to gain leverage while the authorities are persisting in undesirable conduct. You might benefit from reading the article Interdict. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:06, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm note 100% sure what part your referencing, but I'm speaking of a "personal" interdiction exclusively. Here is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia. I don't see anything which suggests that an interdiction of a named person or group can be given a punishment even after penance and reconciliation: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08073a.htm

An example where a person has been subject to a personal interdiction is a legislator who has supported abortion rights. That person does not persist in the mortal sin, but he/she has voted to support abortion, not acknowledged his/her error, and there is at least one case where an interdiction was imposed.

Perhaps you will read your source more closely. See the bit that runs, "Whereas excommunication is exclusively a censure, intended to lead a guilty person back to repentance, an interdict, like suspension, may be imposed either as a censure or as a vindictive punishment....if, however, it is imposed for a definite time, and no reparation is demanded of the individuals at fault, it is inflicted as a punishment."

Personal interdicts affect only individuals, for their own individual actions. An interdict affecting people because they are part of a political organization would be what is alternately termed a "real" or "local" interdict, because it applies to people "inasmuch as they form part of a body", to quote your source, rather than individuals. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

While it says that an interdiction may issue for a period of time (and thus may separate one from the sacraments even after repentance if one repents and reconciles before the end of that period), I don't see anything which indicates that the interdiction itself would actually issue, i.e., begin, after one has repented and reconciled. And I disagree with your characterization of this "interdiction" --if it is an interdiction -- as a "local" interdiction in that it did not affect territories or sacred buildings, or forbid services within specified territories or specified sacred buildings. It would be a "general personal interdiction" because it afffected certain persons who fformed a group -- Nazis. Again, though, I'm having a hard time reconciling the language with the document which accuses the Nazis of promulgating a moral and theological philosophy which makes the cause of race and state paramount over the rights (and religious rights) of the indiviudal, and is thereby inconsistent with Catholicism. That is accusing the Nazis of an apostacy, declaring that their philosophical outlook places them outside the Church and thereby not in communinion with the Church. An essential component of an interdiction is that one under censure remains in communion with the Church. That is not the case here. Indeed, at the Bishops Conference the following year (1932), the German bishops indicated that they were re-affirming their existing determination that membership in the Nazi party was inconsistent with Church membership, ie., removes you from the Communion of the Church.

21st Century

Most of the excommunications mentioned here were/are automatic and all those Bishops did was announce that those persons had indeed incurred those automatic excommunications. Just because the newspapers got it wrong, doesn't mean we should perpetuate their mistake. 99.28.85.48 (talk) 05:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Thanks. The media often gets facts wrong. It is important that they wind up here in an accurate form. Student7 (talk) 14:39, 23 February 2011

(UTC)

Dispute over health of patient with abortion

A line keeps getting changed: "excommunicated for allowing an abortion that was deemed medically necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman suffering from pulmonary hypertension" in one manifestation.

n the past, when abortion was illegal, every time there was a hole or apparent hole in the law, everyone was presumed to suffer from it. So if there was an exception for "Mental health", everyone who wanted an abortion was certified to have a "mental health problem." For rape, everyone who wanted an abortion had been "raped," never mind they never reported it to the authorities. These are weasel expressions and are not presumed to be factual. So saying she was hypertense and an abortion was vital is not really factual. We can say that the hospital personnel claimed that, but it's not something that the readers should be led to believe. Student7 (talk) 13:39, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Plenty of news outlets state it outright, so if it would make you more comfortable, we could replace the NPR source with one of those. (Here are some that mention the excommunication specifically, though other coverage of the case before the excommunication also says this.) Your personal opinion that she and the doctors were lying is not relevant here. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:07, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Medicine is an art. It is not a science. It was "somebody's" opinion. As with any statement in Wikipedia, "somebody" could be wrong. They can be quoted as saying that. Fact is difficult, if not impossible to determine. Student7 (talk) 21:46, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I've solved your problem by replacing the NPR source with one of the sources I linked. It's not like we have any reason to disbelieve this, but if it'll make you more comfortable, we can use this source instead. I don't really know why you're repeating that medicine isn't a science. It's a science. Figures of speech should not be treated as empirical fact. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:42, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Technically, medicine is based on science; it is not science itself, and it involves far more than merely science.

On the specific question, I might weasel very slightly by saying that the abortion "was deemed medically necessary" rather than "was medically necessary". I might also note that it was a "first-trimester abortion". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:44, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

It's a bit hard for guys to appreciate this, but pregnancy is a normal condition. It is not really an "illness" that requires anything to "relieve" it. Further, the female body is uniquely qualified to carry babies. They come equipped with hormonal controls to easily permit this "terrible" condition, which is probably not fun during the last trimester, but barely noticeable by most women during the first two.

Furthermore, predicting that "relieving" a normal (and secondary) condition to remedy a real primary one has to be pretty much guesswork on the part of a physician. There are heart conditions that would preclude pregnancy and probably others. Blood pressure? Again, hormonal action by their bodies actually helps that condition. Which is yet another reason why women live longer than men.

And of course, the media trumpets all of that as a fact. Abortion is well-known to be a part of the media agenda. It is also popular, as if they needed another reason. But like most media reports, that doesn't mean that it is accurate. Or even that the media cares about accuracy. 18:07, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

If you're not going to bother justifying yourself based on policy, please take your personal opinions elsewhere. Wikipedia is not a forum. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

BTW, Medicine is described by the Wikipedia article as an science and an art.

A close friend was diagnosed with a heart condition and brought to a distant hospital for emergency treatment. When they tried to place a stent in her heart, they found she didn't require one. After a few months, she finally received the diagnosis of "COPD." The bill for all this BTW, was huge and all for a incorrect diagnosis. Medicine is far from an exact science. Student7 (talk) 19:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

There is just one exact science, which is why am a mathematician:-). Seriously, IMHO "was deemed medically necessary" is an excellent formulation. JoergenB (talk) 17:58, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Since you have agreed, and an anon was (IMO) POV pushing with "allegedly", I have changed it to that wording. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:25, 19 March 2011 (UTC)