Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Argument against classification as 'Christian'

I know that a lot of believers coming from the LDS movement believe themselves to be Christian, but outsiders looking don't agree with that concept. It would be similar to saying that Muslims and Christians are Jewish simply because both groups find the Torah as a sacred text. However, both groups have totally different additions that make them distinctively no longer Jewish, New Testament (Greek Testament) with the Christians and the Q'uran with the Muslims. Likewise, Mormonism has an additional sacred text in the Book of Mormon that distinctively branches out from Christianity with varying beliefs sufficient enough to no longer be labeled as Christian.

Take into further account that the group believes in multiple gods, Jesus and Satan were spirit brothers, and that Jesus is not God having become man, then it is clear that there is enough of a difference for it to be considered something different than the religion that it was inspired by. --GK 15:48, 21 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gk digital defener (talk • contribs)

Please see the definition of 'Christian': "a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ." The number of texts (additional or otherwise) believed to be holy writ is irrelevant. All other points you mention are also irrelevant. The only criteria is whether the individual, or group in this case, believes Jesus to be the Christ. The Mormons do, and, ergo, are Christians. Besides, 'cult' is defined as: "followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices", something that could be applied to pretty much any group you can think of. Useight (talk) 20:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

This topic of discussion is not new. Please see archive 14 for most of my thoughts on the issue, and plenty of discussion and links to previous discussions. In a nutshell, I feel that using "restorationist Christian" solves all problems here. ...but what do you think? ~BFizz 21:32, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Although a few Christian evangelical groups do not classify Mormonism within Christianity, the majority of denominations, including Catholicism and the mainline Protestant churches, are not quite so rude, and classify Mormonism outside of "traditional" Christianity. Christianity is unlike the term Judaism, because Christians themselves make no claim to Judah, and don't care whether they are identified with the Biblical Hebrews. Mormons, on the other hand, make a claim to Jesus, and by Mormons' own terms, they are Christian. Nobody can dispute that Mormonism began squarely within the discourses of traditional American Christianity. You could say that by 1844, Mormonism evolved into something a step beyond traditional Christianity, but there's not much within Mormonism that couldn't be found somewhere within the extremely diverse and wildly-experimental early Christian era. COGDEN 22:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

To say that only a "few Christian evangelical groups do not classify Mormonism within Christianity, the majority of denominations, including Catholicism and the mainline Protestant churches, are not quite so rude, and classify Mormonism outside of "traditional" Christianity." is a vast misrepresentation. The World Council of Churches specifically recognizes the LDS faith as non-Christian. This represents a vast majority of all churches everywhere in the world including Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.3.199.238 (talk) 17:29, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Re: World Council of Churches stance - do you have a source for the WCC's stance on the issue? The one reference I could find from them seems to indicate that they consider the LDS to be a Christian Church (see [1], pg 37 where the LDS is listed as an example of "Other Christian Churches"). --FyzixFighter (talk) 14:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Christ#cite_note-41 The World Council of Churches does not recognise the Mormon movements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 13:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

No major Christian denomination considers Mormons to be Christian (The Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Curches, the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Churches, etc.), and the definition of Christianity is not so simple as to be merely a belief in Jesus Christ; Jews, Muslims, and most Atheists believe in Jesus Christ, the question is what exactly do they believe he was and what precisely was his relationship to the one and only sole god, identified by the Jews as Yaweh and the Muslims as Allah. All Christian denominations have essentially the same belief as expressed in the Nicene Creed, and though some fringe groups do not recognise the text itself as authoritative, they all agree with the basic principles; Mormons, Jews, Muslims and Atheists have a different belief.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Distinctive_Beliefs_of_Mormon.asp Factsareinconvenient (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

See also "Nonrecognition of respective rites" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity - While this article is poorly written and seems in many places to imply a connection between Mormonism inside Christianity, the position of Christians in regard to Mormon baptism makes clear that they do not accept Mormonism as Christian. Review the citations (which is always good advice). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 14:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Mormonism should not be in the Christianity portal. That is not to say it is anything less, but it is simply not Christian. The definition of Christianity is rigid: One God. One Son who is also the final prophet. (Any future prophets are identified with the Beast and the Apocalypse if they are considered at all.) All Christian denominations accept the Apostles Creed and all major ones accept the Nicene. Those who don't fully accept the Nicene, can be identified as fringe; their identity as Christian is logically debatable, but Mormons are as clearly out of the fold as Muslims are. (I can call myself a black muslim and mean it, but being in reality an atheist, any self identification of myself as a black muslim does not make me one.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 12:56, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

You speak as if you know what you are talking about. Welcome to this poor article. New minds are always helpful. You seem to have a definition of being a Christian that is rather rigid. In fact, it is so rigid that not one of the original Apostles could be classified as Christian; I would say that is more than rigid. By chance do you have a definition for being a follower of Jesus or a Christian that can be supported by the Bible? If so, let's use it instead of anything created by man 325 years after Jesus.

You are correct, Latter-day Saints don't recognize any of the baptisms performed by other churches or denominations. To perform a baptism in the eyes of God, one needs his authority. LDS don't believe proper authority exists outside of their Church. LDS believe that Apostolic Succession is a creation of man used to justify the workings of a church created by the non-Christian, Constantine. In the Protestant world, the priesthood of the believer is also a creation of man used to justify their lack of authority.

Let's look at the Apostles' Creed and determine if LDS believe in the concepts it presents:

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. LDS would agree with this with one caveat - Jesus did the creating by the direction of the Father.

2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. LDS believe this completely.

3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. LDS believe this completely.

4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. LDS believe this completely.

5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. LDS believe this completely.

6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. LDS believe this completely.

7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. LDS believe this completely.

8. I believe in the Holy Spirit, LDS believe this completely.

9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, LDS do NOT believe in the Catholic church, but can agree that there is only holy, true church found in the LDS Church.

10. the forgiveness of sins, LDS believe this completely.

11. the resurrection of the body, LDS believe this completely.

12. and life everlasting. LDS believe this completely.

No Muslim can admit these things. I do find it odd how many "critics" use this type of approach (to equate Islam with Mormonism - it demonstrates a remarkable ignorance of both Islam and the LDS Church! If anyone does admit these things, then I would say they are Christian.

No before you go and try to create an argument about the doctrine of the Trinity, please review the Catholic Encyclopedia which will tell you that the Trinity, as a doctrine, was created several hundred years after Jesus. It was not a part of Christ's ministry, Jesus did not demand that his followers understand, believe, or teach this doctrine. The question then becomees, who was the first one that required this specific belief and why? I will leave that to you to study and determine. Please return and tell me what you find.

The problem with facts is that they really are inconvenient. They shock the ignorant and enlighten the humble. -^StormRider 14:59, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Your argument is severely impaired as it seems to me most of those who seek to define mormonism as Christianity do so without an understanding of what Christianity is. Firstly, LDS' do not support many of the principles of the Apostles Creed as is stated above. (Analysis of LDS 'acceptance' of the Nicene Creed would be more useful and make LDS' divergence from Christianity more apparent.) Most fundamentally, Mormons do not believe in one and only one God and creator, and one and only one divine son, born of a virgin. (Satan as blood brother, God's previous corporeal existence, Christ the creator, the mormon opportunity to become a god and other gods (polytheism), and future revelation (the book of mormon) are all impossible contradictions to definition as 'christian'. (The caveat stated above alone is enough to render Mormonism no longer Christian.) Furthermore, the bible is unnecessary and of little use to the definition. Like other religions, the entirety of the religion is not contained explicitly in the primary document, however, the fundamental documents like the nicene creed are well established as being based upon the primary source (the Bible). These arguments are too complicated for this section and so established that to even question them reveals that mormonism is not 'christian'. Christians existed for nearly two thousand years under a broadly united definition and though they had many doctrinal disagreements, all of them agreed to a set of principles that Mormons do not believe. Christians defined themselves long before mormonism was invented. Mormons do not have the right or ability to change the definition of others to include themselves. As far as Christians are concerned, Mormons do not even worship the same god that they, jews and muslims do. Also, you do not understand the definition of 'catholic' (with a small c). The word refers to the ancient and universal church and does not refer to the Roman Catholic Church directly; it did not identify itself as such in the second century. (And it doesn't matter when the idea of a trinity was 'created'; the fact is it is a defining characteristic of being 'christian' and was recognised as such for a thousand years before mormonism. It's part of the definition, whether non-scholars are able to 'read' it in the bible or not.)~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 19:31, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

...and actually, Muslims do believe many of the principles: God the creator (only one), resurrection of the body, forgiveness of sins, life everlasting...~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 19:37, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

This argument is truly NULL and void. Please see the Webster's dictionary, an universally accepted dictionary for the English language. It states "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ". Mormons confess a belief in Christ.. End of Argument.Wearingaredhat (talk) 07:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Webster’s Dictionary is manifestly not a citable source for the provision of an accurate definition of Christianity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 10:09, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster perhaps has an infinitesimal amount of weight, but no dictionary would be referenced in even the most faintly academically inclined discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 10:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Webster's Dictionary — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 10:19, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The sign in front of LDS churches is:" Church of Jesus Christ , Latter day Saints." Period. Joseph Smith is considered an apostle; like Peter, Paul, John, etc. Not an immortal Messiah--simply latter-day. Muslims do not consider Christ as the Messiah or prophet, they consider his as only a minor apostle. Only Mohammed is their prophet--but, he is dead in his grave, not like Jesus Christ, whom 250 Roman Solders witnessed as risen from his grave, or that his was grave empty. How can this be compared to LDS, or, any modern Christian church?70.176.118.196 (talk) 02:16, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

In the german Wikipedia we have the same discussion and we have come to the conclusion that the LDS cannot be called christian in general, since it differs in some principal beliefs to what is accepted as common in christianity: 1. it believes in polytheism, which is against one of christianity's main characteristics as a abrahamatic monotheistic religion. 2. it believes in other scriptures than the Bible, e.g. the Book of Mormon, 3. it believes in prophets that other christians do not believe in. 4. it doesn't accept the creed of Nicaia, the first official creed of the church (accepted on the first ecumenical council in 325) 5. it doesn't believe in the Christian doctrine of trinity that Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are persons in one being: Godhead. 6. Lucifer, the devil, is seen as the brother of Jesus Christ 7. it doesn't identify itself with any christian cross. All the established churches like the roman-catholic, the catholic-orthodox, and the lutheran church don't see the mormons to be part of christianity and thus don't accept baptized mormons to be christians. They instead call LDS a syncretistic new-religion. Established theology, history and sociology professors in the scientific world deny mormons the status as christians using a mix of the critical points listed above. The Webster's dictionary or any other general dictionaries of english, or other major languages, are no good sources for definitions of what a christian is, because they don't go into the details. There are other scholar-works, like the german "Theologische Realenzyklopädie" that give much more detailed definitions of what christianity is supposed to be by experts. It is hereby noteworthy to say that neither the Britannica, nor the Oxford dictionaries define mormons to be christians. Thus by defining mormons to be christians the english Wikipedia seems to be the only encyclopedia in the world doing so. Whether mormons see themselves as christians is completely irrelevant, since anybody can call himself christian without being it. We should thus not focus on what mormons think of themselves, but rather what the public, and especially what experts have to say. Otherwise we give no neutral point of view, an important criteria of good Wikipedia articles. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 08:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

If this is what the German Wikipedia thinks, then I fear for theology in Germany. Let's take your points: 1) We believe in God the Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. If that is polytheism, then granted. 2) Other scriptures: which Bible are we talking about one with the Apocrypha or one without? When did God say to take them out? Is Tradition considered as good as scripture? If so, then who gets to decide what is most important? 3) No where does it say a prophet is a prophet if all Christians agree. In fact, scripture shows that many prophets were not accepted by the people of God. Is the Pope the Pope because other Christians do not accept him. 4) Requiring being in the Nicaean Creed condemns Jesus and all of the early Christians. (This list is getting progressively more absurd and devoid of logic) 5) The doctrine of the Trinity is not found in scripture, was not believed by the early apostles and early Christians. It became a doctrine 325 years after Christ; get the period of time involved 3-0-0 YEARS to develop this doctrine. If required you would have thought Jesus would have made it the central piece of his teachings WHICH HE OBVIOUSLY DID NOT. 6) Lucifer is a creation of God; as one of his creations he is necessarily in relationship with all of his creation, even his Son. 7) The Christian cross was not a symbol for the early followers of Jesus. More importantly, LDS prefer to focus on Jesus resurrected, living, and active in their daily lives. Attempting to equate Christianity with a single symbol has no foundation in logic, theology, or truth. 8) Absolutely false; almost all scholars acknowledge the LDS Church as distinctly Christian. Only other churches deny the LDS Church's Christianity. This is strictly their prerogative, but not one of them owns or controls the definition of Christian. All English dictionaries use a definition of "Christian" as a follower of Jesus; all of your definitions are only useful if you are a Catholic, Orthodox, or Lutheran. In the US Lutherans have become so liberal their own Christianity could be questioned. You are correct, anyone can call themselves Christian. Jesus taught us that it is not what comes out of one's mouth, but those who listen to the Lord and follow him, keep his commandments that know Him. I will take Jesus Christ's definition of his followers over any group's chosen definition. Cheers.

I have to say that the German Wikipedia is in a very sad situation if this is the best you can come up with. -^StormRider 12:03, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

1: Smith said that it is possible for humans to become a God since everyone is given the grace of God. 2: Apocrypha were texts written during the early period of christianity (NT) or judaism (OT). That they were discussed and are still discussed is part of the search for a common canon. The Book of Mormon instead was created in the 19th century, and thus has nothing to do with these works. Never has a discussion in the catholic church or the protestant churches taken place to include the Book of Mormon as part of the canon 4: We are talking about christianity of today, not in Jesus times, which is different from christianity in the apostolic age. Christianity today agrees upon the creed of Nicaia as the essence of faith that need to be accepted by all christians. 5: Same like 4, we are talking about christianity in our times, not in Jesus' times. During Jesus times there didn't even exist any scriptures of the New Testament, so you could equally criticize why we believe in scriptures, that were written after Jesus died. 6: at least in this point you face strong dissense from christians in the world. 8: Show your sources that prove that theologians agree that the mormons are christians! My scholarly sources don't say it including the Theologische Realenzyklopädie, one of the most profound and well-known theological encyclopedias in the world written by international experts in their fields. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:35, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Let's also look at some english dictionaries and what they have got to say about mormons or the LDS:

• http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0534500#m_en_gb0534500
• http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mormons
• http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/392525/Mormon
• http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/Mormon
• http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/latter-day+saint?show=0&t=1301492718

As I said before, none of them use the word "christian", which contradicts the way the LDS is categorized in the english Wikipedia. It seems like defendants of mormon's christianity need to have very good answers, why the majority of dictionaries and encyclopedias in english don't define them to be christian, while other religious groups like the quakers are defined to be christians. It all seems to me like the authors of the LDS-article in the english Wikipedia didn't think a lot about categorizing them to be a group of christians. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:59, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I haven't looked at any of the dictionaries you listed, but if you actually read the Encyclopedia Brittanica entry you would know that it does use the word Christian, and there's another section here which specifically talks about how you can look at the definition of Christian to either include or exclude Mormonism depending upon your POV. VernoWhitney (talk) 14:16, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Correct, the Britannica uses the word christian, but it doesn't define mormons to be christians, as you can see from your linked article too. So it is POV to call them christians, while in the case we omit it or we make it clear that their attribution to Christianity is disputed like the Britannica does, we show a neutral point of view. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 14:31, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

It is made clear that their attribution to Christianity is disputed. See The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints#Comparisons with mainstream Christianity and Mormonism and Christianity. VernoWhitney (talk) 14:33, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Not clear enough, since the first sentence of the article defines them to be a "restorationist Christian religion", thus claiming as if it is a christian religion indeed without any criticism at this point. I would omit Christian from the beginning on and later include a sentence like this into the introduction: "Mormons see themselves as Christians, which is disputed among catholics, protestants, academics and in the public." --217.5.199.242 (talk) 14:42, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Are we really have this discussion...again? I refer the anon to the succinct summary of the previous consensus solution. I see nothing new in the recent arguments that hasn't already been debated (except the reference to the not even a week old debate on the German wikipedia) so I don't think the consensus would have changed. Even so, to restate what has been stated before - we describe the LDS as Christian because numerous scholarly reliable sources explicitly place the LDS within Christianity (statements of explicit inclusion imo are superior to non-statements of implied exclusion), for example:

• The Religious Composition of the United States
• 2001 American Religious Identification Survey
• CIA - The World Factbook -- Field Listing::Religion
• ARIS 2008 Report: Part IA - Belonging
• Responses of the Churches to HIV and AIDS in South Africa (pg 37) - from the World Council of Churches
• Sources for Religious Congregations & Membership Data for the Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA) (see section "Who is included in the 2000 Religious Congregations and Membership data?")

and so on. If you really want to push this issue and determine if the consensus has changed, I would recommend that you present this debate at a broader and higher level venue like at WP:CHRISTIAN or WP:RELIGION. --FyzixFighter (talk) 18:49, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks FyzixFighter for sharing the sources pro-Christianity for mormons. Let me now criticize them one by one:

1. Pew Research Center, which is the organization behind the first of your sources, is a privately owned think tank founded in 2004. As such it doesn't have a lot of reputation in the scientific world yet, and members of its Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life are not well-known experts in theology. None of the senior staff members has earned an academic degree in religions or christian theology, most of them studied politics, economy or sociology. I doubt about their expertise in central questions of christian belief. The source itself nowhere states its classification criteria of grouping denominations into the large group of Christianity. Nowhere is there a justification found, about why certain groups are included. It seems to me they have a rather unthorough approach and include all organisations that declare themselves to be christians, like the jehovas witnesses, whose membership to christianity is disputed as well.
2. The American Religious Identification Survey of 2001 was published by the graduate center of the city university of New York. The study director Ariela Keysar is a demographer, no theologian. Once again this source nowhere explains its classifications and on which criteria it included otherwise disputed groups into christianity.
3. The CIA is by no means an authorative source for the definition of christianity. So whether the CIA calls mormons christians or not, is not of great relevance. What would be interesting to know is where the CIA got this classification from. A general enquiry would be a good way to find out.
4. This is a single report about South Africa by the World Council of Churches. Against it I have to say, that the LDS Church seems to be the only denomination (and other mormon groups) that is not a member church of this christian body and that the report itself is just one specific report. Nevertheless we could go forward and ask the WCC whether it defines the mormons to be a part of christianity to get clarification.
5. ARIS 2008 is just the 2008 version, instead of 2001 in source number. So what applies to source no. 2 applies to this one as well.
6. No criteria or definitions given why certain organisations including the LDS church are included.

While all your given sources prove that mormons are regarded as christians by some organizations and scholars, the given sources were not strong, because they didn't go into detail about their choices. Statistical surveys that don't define their selections and categories should be seen as rather primitive, since this is what profound academic statistical reports in general do: They first define, create groups or classes, argue for why they made their choices, and then go on to present statistical data and how they elaborated them. For our dispute strong sources are those from authorative institutions and single researchers or research teams, prefereably those with a christian background, since the point of debate is whether mormons belong to christianity or not. This question must be dealt with by experts in christian faith, who can primarily be found in traditional theological faculties at universities with long traditions, such as those in Paris or Cologne, Marburg, Oxford, Barcelona, Bologna, Harvard, among others. --217.50.54.87 (talk) 20:38, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I think this Anon has said it all when she consistently emphasizes that the Christianity of today has nothing to do with the Church founded by Jesus Christ and nothing to do with what he taught. By being so honest as to admit that Jesus taught a different gospel and certainly defined his disciples by different terms she has provided all that is needed to ignore everything she states because it has nothing to do with Jesus and his teaching, but rather the teachings of men. Nothing is more demonstrative of this position then when a group of men 325 years after Jesus' life decided to create a doctrine that goes against the Bible and what Jesus taught. Worse, this creed became the foundation for their followers and they attempt to use this same definition to define Christianity. What they mean is that their new gospel has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus and I agree that Mormons have no desire to follow the teachings of man. The LDS Church has no intention or claim to belong to Catholicism, the Eastern Orthodox, or Lutheranism. This is the Church restored by Jesus himself to the earth again to purge the world of the teachings of men; to proclaim that the heaven remain open and God talks to his prophets. Your definitions are unique to these groups you have mentioned and none of them have anything to do with definition used by Jesus. Don't write another thing unless you can demonstrate by using the Bible that Jesus demanded of his followers to believe in the Trinity. I could save you time, but you need to research. Oh heck, you could search for an eternity and you will not find it in the Bible because it is false and Jesus never taught such a thing or demanded it of his followers. What he did demand is that we love God, our neighbors, follow his commandments, pray, partake of the Sacrament, and have faith in Him. Interesting how men would create a absolute belief in something that Jesus did not teach?!? -^StormRider 22:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Jesus Christ didn't found any church. That is the first thing to be noted. Why do mormons follow the book of Mormon when Jesus or any christian of the apostolic age never said anything about it? Why do mormons found a religion 1800 years after Jesus Christ died? 300 years against 1800 years is quite a difference. Also it is not interesting what mormons would like to do or be, we don't judge them by their own point of view and by their wishes, but rather by facts and by the fundamental sources of their faith. We are not talking about whether they should be called catholic or protestant, but discuss whether it is correct to call them christian. And the strongest argument against mormons to be seen as christians is their belief in other scriptures that are not part of the shared canon, and not part of the apocryphas. Especially the Book of Mormon is seen by many scientists (archaelogists, theologians, philologists, historians) to be a fiction and a 19th-century-creation of mixed (syncretic) inspirations Joseph Smith jun. had. Its original language "reformed egyptian" has never been identified as an ancient language in use. Thus its authenticity is greatly disputed. Because of the majority of respected scholars of theology don't see mormons as christians, Wikipedia should not let itself become distracted from the point of view of mormons, but rather focus on what experts have to say about it. I don't see any sense to object to what major dictionaries and encyclopedias in the languages I know (german, english, russian, spanish, etc.) have to say about the mormons, calling them either a religious body, sect, cult or movement and don't state that they are christian. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 08:09, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

First, he did found a Church; just ask the Catholics. Second, search the New Testatment for the word church; also look at the organization he created by looking at Ephesians 4:11-14. Please do not make declarative statements unless you know what you are talking about. If you must, begin the statement with "I believe..." You do not "know" anything, but you have an opinion of belief.

Mormons founded a church 1800 years after Jesus' time because LDS believe that Jesus restored his Church upon the earth again with the original structure. It is their belief, which is just as valid as your beliefs.

Fiction: do you know how much of the Bible is disproved by scientists? Do you really want to take this path? What Jesus taught us is to have Faith; he did not say go and believe in the arm of flesh i.e. the knowledge of man, but to have faith in that which we cannot see. This is scriptural; found in your Bible. Do you believe it or not?

The only thing the Book of Mormon does is bear witness to Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. It asks those who read it to ask God if it is true. If you want to put your faith in the understanding of man; go for it. As far as trying to exclude LDS from Christianity because of their belief in the Book of Mormon, do you have any scriptural support for your position? If not, you have nothing to say other than what you believe. LDS believe God lives and talks to prophets today just as he did in yester year. Also, if you try to go to Revelations and say not to add or take away from the words of "this" book. Please first explain the Apocrapha and then look at Deuteronomy 4:2 and compare the two versus and explain how they are different. What is the book Revelations is talking about?

Thank you for sharing your opinion; it is lacking and Wikipedia has no room for attempting to portray your opinion or even the opinions of other churches. We work with facts and we report those facts to the world. All you have done is share an opinion; thank you. -^StormRider 08:34, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Catholic exegesis shows that we cannot call of a formal founding act by Jesus Christ, but only can refer to what he said to apostle Peter in Mt 16,18-19. Problem among experts is what you define to be a church or ecclesia, but common understanding is that of a group that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ after he died and was resurrected. Peter was the one apointed for that task. We are also not talking about the specific points inside the Bible that are disapproved by scholars to be facts or the historic inaccuracies. This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the authenticity of scriptures written in ancient times on papyrus, or golden plates, or codexes or any other form of media. Scientists can now quite exactly trace back when jews agreed upon a canon of the tanakh, and when they first wrote pieces of what we call parts of the Old Testament. Same goes for New Testament. The history of writing down what was first shared as oral history, can be reconstructed quite well. It is a historic fact that in ancient times people compiled or wrote down parts of what is known to us as the Bible. One of such manuscripts is the Codex Sinaiticus. However, the creation of the Book of Mormon cannot be reconstructed historically, and there seems to be no manuscripts dating back to ancient times, or can you show me plates the Book of Mormon was first written on? Also note that this is not just my opinion. You can find the same criticism I state here, in the works of academics around the world. I am not the one who invented all these arguments. These arguments have been present almost since the day, the LDS church was founded. To ignore the opinions of theologians, historians, archaeologists and philologists seems to only show your ignorance in the subject. If you don't want to read research papers, please consult your english dictionary - if you have one - of what it has got to say about mormons. If it states that mormons or the LDS church is christian, please come back and show me. I have meanwhile consulted the Oxford English Dictionary, which also doesn't define mormons to be christians. Speaking against the OED will be a difficult task, but nonetheless I am still open for debate. Thanks. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 09:07, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Well I have fed this troll enough. Just because you have the same opinion as others does not make the opinion correct. To have a debate one must be knowledgeable of the subject matter; you have proved sadly lacking. -^StormRider 12:39, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh well, now I am accused to be a troll, while I happen to have the same opinion like Britannica, the Oxford English Dictionary, and the majority of theologians, who don't see mormons as christians. It seems like all these scholars are not knowledeable of the subject matter according to a WP user called "Storm Rider". It sounds ridiculous to me, how someone can insist on his own opinion while experts in the world oppose to it. That the english Wikipedia seems to count more on the opinions of mormons than on the Oxford English Dictionary or Britannica sounds rather ridiculous. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:18, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

A request for a third opinion was made by one of the editors involved in this discussion. I have declined that request, as there are already more than 3 editors involved in the discussion. If the dispute cannot be managed here, please take the matter to WP:Dispute resolution. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:22, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Storm Rider, re: the Apostles creed. Christianity claims that God created the world through Jesus (see: Logos (Christianity). And catholic church means universal church not big-C Catholic. TFD (talk) 18:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

• comment We had this same discussion with Jehovah's Witnesses. Wikipedia doesn't use the degree of adherence to the Nicene creed as a bar to decide whether a religion is "christian" or not. We use 1. reliable sources and 2. selfidentification. Using the label "restorationist christian" is not a selfdescriptive term it is a term the is used as a classification within sociology of religion and which includes all religions that describe them self as restoring a more original kind of christianity. If we have a reliable source that LDS claim to be restoring christianity to its original form - then LDS is a restorationist christian group. It doesn't matter an ounce what other christians think - they do not determine how other religions are defined. ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:24, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Maunus: A good point but if we really stick to the expression "restorationist christian", we should not confuse people by providing separate links to both restoration and christianity, since people then might think the adjectives used are completely distinct and see the Church of Jesus Christ LDS as part of christianity. --217.50.56.198 (talk) 18:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Clarification

Though the topic of whether or not the LDS religion should be affiliated with orthodox, historical Christianity has been discussed, I would like to see clarification in this article. Though the LDS religion did, indeed, spring out of the mish-mash of restorationist movements in the 19th century, it is theologically and practically incorrect to identify the LDS religion with Christian faith. The two could not be more dissimilar, despite making claims on Christ. Also, since many non-denominational churches today, which are inside the pale of historic faith, trace themselves back to restorationist movements, lumping the LDS religion in with them is confusing.

Thus, I would simply suggest that a paragraph or even a couple of sentences be inserted into the beginning of the article, detailing that, while the LDS religion has Jesus as a central figure, he is not the figure of historical Christianity, thereby making the LDS religion something altogether different.

P.S. - I write as someone who has close family members intimately entwined with the LDS religion. This is not a personal attack, but simply an appeal to theological, historical and practical integrity. - Marie

So go ahead and find some reliable sources which would support sentences to that effect and figure out how to work it in to this article or Mormonism and Christianity. VernoWhitney (talk) 00:21, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

According to the first line of Restorationism (Christian primitivism), "In Christianity, restorationism (or Christian primitivism) is the belief that a purer form of Christianity has been restored using the early church as a model." Churches like the LDS Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses fit this description quite well. For this article's introductory paragraphs I see no further need to clarify "restorationist Christian denomination" beyond perhaps pointing the reader to Mormonism and Christianity, which makes the church's differences from orthodox Christianity quite clear.

I respectfully disagree with the statement that "it is theologically and practically incorrect to identify the LDS religion with Christian faith. The two could not be more dissimilar". While beliefs regarding the particulars vary, as they do with any Christian faith, the LDS Church believes in salvation through Christ, resurrection (and not reincarnation), heaven, angels, spiritual gifts (like prophecy), baptism, the Bible, etc. Theological differences are, in my opinion, not a strong point for disputing the "Christianity" of the LDS Church, since it shares so many fundamental ideas with Christianity. ...comments? ~BFizz 05:18, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Mormonism in no way, shape or form has anything to do with Early Christianity. It may be closer to early Jewish tribalism, but not Christianity. ~PJ

risti Well, Islam also believes in Heaven, angels, and has Christ as a central figure. Should Islam and Christianity be lumped together? I make no comment as to the veracity of LDS belief. I simply say that there is enough difference to distinguish it from historical Christian faith. For instance, a central tenant of Christian belief (as far as Protestantism goes, which tradition the LDS commonly identifies with, to a degree) is that it is the grace of Christ, and Christ alone, which provides salvation. The LDS begin here, yes, but add the requirement that one must keep all the laws, ordinances, etc. to be saved. ("The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79). "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79).) In short, historical Christianity is grace-based, the LDS system is works-based. Theologians on both "sides" will agree with this point. Thus, the two faiths are quite different. - Marie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.25.153 (talk) 16:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

In hopes of ending this discussion, this is NOT a forum regarding your views on LDS/Christianity, If you have reliable sources supporting the statements you feel should be added then add them, if not, then feel free to look for them, but unsourced statements that are solely your opinion or otherwise unverifiable arguments may not be placed in this (or any other) article. VernoWhitney (talk) 17:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again, this is not a comment on the veracity of the religion, but rather an attempt to distinguish between LDS and historic Christianity. The original edit I made - that the opening sentences of this article be changed to reflect the reality that this religion arose out of restorationist movements of the 19th century, rather than being another Christian church, which is corroborated throughout history texts - was summarily removed. I shall attempt the edit again, once I have created an exhaustive list of appropriate sources. - Marie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.25.153 (talk) 00:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Need there be any further clarification than "restorationist Christian"? The qualifier "restorationist" clearly demarcates the religion as rejecting "historic Christianity", since the basic concept behind restorationism is that over time the "true" church/doctrine of Christianity has been corrupted. ...comments? ~BFizz 19:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

How can so many miss such a simple principle? A Christian is anyone who regards Jesus Christ to be the Messiah. Since Mormons do in fact believe this wholly, they can only be classified as Christian. The Islam faith does acknowledge Jesus--but not as the Messiah--so that is how they find themselves outside of Christianity.--124.40.63.122 (talk) 18:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

"[A]nyone who regards Jesus Christ to be the Messiah" is absolutely NOT the definition of Christianity. That is as ridiculous as, ‘every person in America is an American.’ It is simplistic to the point of ridiculousness and but a part of the definition of Christianity. While Wikipedia may not rise to a great level of scholarship, such a definition is unworthy of even this humble resource. The detailed definition of Christianity is found in the Nicene Creed. A more accurate 'simplistic' defintion if you will would be something like, 'Anyone who believes that the one and only one almighty and sole god (called Yahweh by the Jews), who created the totality of existence, begot of the virgin Mary the one and only one son he ever had and ever will and sent him as the messiah to die, rise again and ascend to heaven as it was somehow necessary to do so to save mankind from sin, and who denies the power of any other gods and the existence of any later prophets is a Christian.’ ALL of those elements are essential. Denial on any ONE element makes a religion no longer Christian. (Belief in the trinity is also essential, but it’s a less ‘simplistic’ concept.) Mormons like to claim they have ‘revised’ ‘orthodox’ christianity, but that’s just nonsence marketing speak for following an entirely different religion based somewhat on Christianity; the Muslims do the same thing and they have more central beliefs in common with Christianity than Mormons do, but they aren’t classified as ‘Christian’ (the same one almighty creator god, no other gods, one judgment after death and one and the same heaven). ‘’And for the record, I am an Athiest and think it’s all a load of silly nonsense, but facts are facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 11:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

That may be the definition of Nicene Christianity but it is not the only formulation of doctrine within a Christian framework ala the Arian controversy.Ltwin (talk) 17:01, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

The Nicene Creed? You mean the thing MEN developed hundreds of years AFTER Christ walked on Earth? Christ taught that anyone who followed him and lived by HIS teachings would be considered his disciples. Being a Christian has absolutely nothing to do with the irrelevant Nicene Creed but belief and faith in Christ. Anyone who knows anything about the Mormons knows that they meet this criteria. Christ defines what a Christian is NOT men no matter what kind if "creed" they come up with.--124.40.63.122 (talk) 18:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Before this conversation continues, note this is not a forum. Instead of opinions about if X is Y and if Y is Y, please discuss how the article can be improved. In this specific case, that might be by presenting reliable sources (such as scholarly papers) discussing this issue. tedder (talk) 19:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Editing control?

Why are Mormon missionaries given editing control over the Mormon page? I corrected many of the factual errors in the article and I received a warning. Mormonism is NOT a branch of Christianity. Every Church believes Mormonism to be a mix of paganism, old heresy, and new American folk cult religion. Mormonism does not believe in the same Jesus as Christians, just like Muslims. Mormons are attempting to blend into Christianity, but their teaching clearly is not Christian. Right now, the Mormon page is entirely from a pro-Mormon point of view which seeks to have Mormonism accepted as Christian. How can Wikipedia dare say to be unbiased when you host essentially a propaganda piece written by Mormons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.11.77.254 (talk) 14:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

It really can't be helped, it's generally a problem with wikipedia, if the orgainization is large enough be it bussnes or in this case a "church" look a the artcial for black water for instance —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.193.186.17 (talk) 09:05, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

If you've been Reading, LDS/Mormon Is a Christian church. Maybe not a "branch" of anything, but not, certainly, any: "mix of paganism, old heresy. and American cult religion." Muslim is as unrelated as scientology to it. Besides, read the definition of: Cult--it is: "any group with rituals attached." That can be Any church, most organizations; even the Boy Scouts. It isn't a "black label" to be thrown around and darken anything. Besides, look at the early Catholic church--numerous Saints were easily assimilated by pagan tribes into their own polytheism--Saint of animals, Saint of childbirth, etc. Also, Christ's birthday was changed from about April until Dec. 25--Constantine's wife's birthday; also a convenient close-approach to the winter solstice, a pagan ritual. So, Catholicism, a very "Christian" church had pagan assimilations.70.176.118.196 (talk) 02:36, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Interesting

There has been a sudden spate of new editors adding SPAM links to this article today: anybody else thinking that there might be a sockpuppet / meatpuppet situation taking place ? Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 20:06, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm now thinking that this article needs some page protection as more and more new editors are adding this same information. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 20:11, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Rather than meatpuppet references, more specıfıc poınters ın your edıt undos wıll be helpful. We want to contrıbute to the page and are happy to follow guıdelınes ıf they are clearly referenced. No meatpuppets here, just people who want to contrıbute to the bıg collaboratıve sıte. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opencontent (talk • contribs) 20:22, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Rather than just jumping in and 'contributing' I would suggest that your group learn some of WP's rules first. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 20:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Such as WP:BITE. alanyst ^/talk/ 20:50, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Who is "we"? In any case, productive contributors are welcome, but not those who are editing in bad faith. External links in the body of article are not considered good style, see Wikipedia:Citing sources#Embedded_links and WP:ELPOINTS. Only one official URL is necessary, per WP:EL and the above discussion on this exact issue. tedder (talk) 20:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Tedder said it well. WP is not like other websites; it is considered bad style to put external links in the body of the article. They can be used, however, in an "External Links" section, within references, and very occasionally, within templates that indicate an "official website" field or something of the sort. Wikilinks, not to be confused with Wikileaks ;), on the other hand, are encouraged (within limits of taste and style).

Labeling these edits as "spam" is inappropriate...the ones I saw were, in fact, links to the official lds website, but were misplaced. ...comments? ~BFizz 21:36, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is not a space for personal promotion or the promotion of products, services, web sites, fandoms, ideologies, or other memes." Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 21:51, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

One could assume good faith, that those editors felt those links to be informative rather than promotional. I don't see evidence for the bad-faith assumption you've started with. alanyst ^/talk/ 21:54, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

A better way to have handled might have been to welcome these users on their individual talk pages, which has now been take care of. However in doing this, I have discovered that Template:LDSWelcome could really use a refresh after all of this time; it looks dated & non-standard. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 22:58, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! This is more productive conversation. Yes, alanyst, I believe all the links we added were to official sites and were informative, not promotional. The WP:BITE from Duke53 was a harsh introduction to the WP community, but these more recent posts are encouraging. When there is so much of what appears to be deliberate mis-information on the Internet about the LDS church, increasing the number of links in the article to official church sites seems like an informative thing to do. "Promotional" in the context of this article would seem to be saying things like "You should all join the LDS church!," which of course we weren't doing. We'll explore ways to add an appropriate number of these newer official links to the appropriate section at the bottom. Thanks for the tips, and the welcome message on our user pages. opencontent (talk) 05:20, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

• You saw the meatpuppet investigation discussion, right ? It's okay to call the situation a 'meatpuppet situation' when, as it turns out, it was a 'meatpuppet situation' ! The tbm around here will always go out of their way to defend fellow lds editors ... the fact that your group all posted from byu automatically garnered you the support of some of them.

The fact that you were aware enough to employ meatpuppet tactics was a harsh way for you folks to start your WP participation. Also, just because you said "Edits are in full conformance with WP Community Editing Guidelines" doesn't make it so. Nice try though ...  :>)

You might also want to read the discussion here about limiting the number of links in this article. AFAIAC, your links were / are less 'informative' and more 'promotional' in nature. We're not going to allow this article to be turned into another lds tract. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 06:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's count the number of WP:AGF violations here. (1) "The tbm around here will always go out of their way to defend fellow LDS editors" ...using a slur (tbm == True Blue Mormons) and an empirically false stereotype ("will always...defend fellow LDS editors") to undermine efforts to welcome these new editors; (2) "The fact that your group all posted from BYU automatically garnered you the support of some of them" ...which is mind-reading; (3) "You were aware enough to employ meatpuppet tactics" ...which also is mind-reading and rejecting the Occam's Razor explanation of a newbie mistake; (4) "Nice try" ...treating Opencontent's explanation as a tactical maneuver rather than an honest statement; (5) "We're not going to allow this article to be turned into another LDS tract" ...which is a strawman given that Opencontent has explicitly stated they're not trying to be promotional or persuasive. For sheer bad-faith-assumption density that post was depressingly impressive. alanyst ^/talk/ 07:30, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Opencontent, this article used to have a large number of external links to various sites, including several LDS-owned websites like lds.org, mormon.org, familysearch.org, and so forth. A discussion a couple months ago among long-time editors here (including myself) came to the consensus that the volume of links felt too promotional. The list was whittled down to the one official lds.org link, from which the other LDS websites can be reached anyways. If you think other links need to be listed, then put forth your case for them on this talk page—but as the recent consensus is against that, I advise against unilaterally adding links without achieving consensus first. alanyst ^/talk/ 06:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Editors, Duke has a long history of focusing on being less than helpful. His reputation is well known on Wikipedia. It is best if everyone just ignores all his comments. He tires quickly and moves on. Should he revert in an edit without a valid reason, view it as edit warring and move on. Focus on improving the article. When there is a dispute evidenced by legitimate editors, search for a way to edit the article that engenders consensus. Good luck, -^StormRider 09:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposals for improving this article

This article has been stuck in a state of stable mediocrity for a long time, and I just wanted to propose and discuss a few long-term proposals for improving this article. Here is what I think needs to be done over the next months to raise the article to something that might be nominated as a "good" article:

• We need better source citations. Right now, the article has a hodge-podge of primary sources, not all of them used appropriately. I think we should winnow-down the number of sources we use for this article. Because this article has a very broad scope, its sources should ideally have a similarly broad scope. They should almost always be secondary source that give a broad overview of the LDS Church. For example, I'd like to see lots of cites to Bushman's Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction, the Ostlings' Mormon America, Arrington & Bitton's The Mormon Experience, Allen & Leonard's The Story of the Latter-day Saints, O'Dea's The Mormons, etc.
• The prose is dry and technical. We need to make the prose more compelling and interesting to read. In some sections, there is too much focus on numbers and lists. In place of numbers and lists, we can often make generalizations, or move the specific numbers and list materials to the footnotes.
• I think the "Distinctive Doctrines and Practices" section should be expanded and possibly broken into at least a couple of different sections. I think this section is the main topic of interest to the reader, and should provide a brief but comprehensive overview of orthodox LDS beliefs.
• The article spends too much space discussing some subjects of recent news interest such as Proposition 8, which are not very important when considered from a long historical perspective (see WP:Recentism).
• Overall, the article needs to be streamlined. I think some sections presently go into too much detail, like "Sources of authority" and "Comparison with other Latter Day Saint movement faiths".
• Some sections seem redundant, and can probably be integrated into the rest of the article, such as possibly "media and arts" and "Controversy and Criticism". I'm not saying that we should remove or limit the scope of criticism--only that we should address particular criticism only in the section where it is most germane, such as the historical, doctrinal, or finance sections.

COGDEN 21:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Possible Plans for Making This a Featured Article

COGDENs list above is right on in many respects. This is why I thought it would be useful to assign members of the class I'm teaching at BYU to improve the article. I've read more about making class assignments to edit in Wikipedia in the interim; however, I'm concerned that accusations of meatpuppetry will continue. I've challenged my students to turn this article - which definitely needs improvement as COGDEN noted - into a featured article, and we're reading and working to understand exactly what that means. However, given our experience with our first small attempts at improvement, I'm concerned that my students might make 10 weeks or so of concerted effort only to have each improvement unceremoniously rolled back.

So I ask those of you who are the apparent monitors of all edits to this article - are you willing to allow it to be improved? If the class runs afoul of something not listed in Contributing to Wikipedia, which we have read and understand (something like the policy about External Links, which is not listed there and was news to us), will there be rudeness and unexplained deletions? Or will there be some coaching and an assumption of good faith, as it turns out Wikipedia guidelines also encourage? Should we spend our time here or should we invest our energies elsewhere? Thanks in advance for your thoughts and responses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opencontent (talk • contribs) 15:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Aha- that's why there were a bunch of sockpuppets/meatpuppets from BYU all at the same time? Editing is fine, but the additions were mostly like this and this- in other words, adding external links to the body of the article, which doesn't help. Given that you and your students are likely all Mormon and from BYU, make sure to read Wikipedia's policy on neutral point of view. This article is fairly complete- it doesn't have any {{citation needed}} tags. Making these types of change to any article, especially one aimed at GA/FA, is counterproductive. There are, however, articles in the LDS project that need help. I looked through the project and found a few: Jesse Knight, missing pageants at List of pageants of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the redlinks at Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/Articles needed. As instructor, I'd encourage you to check in at Wikipedia:School and university projects. I'm perfectly willing to help out, drop by my talk page if you have questions. (I've helped with a few other classes) tedder (talk) 16:47, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

The allegations of sockpuppets or meatpuppets should and can safely be ignored. They are meaningless and unhelpful. If you are going to focus a group of students on a single article such as this one, then there needs to be a complete understanding of editing with references. This topic is highly controversial and attracts editors from both ends of the spectrum. As such, anything overtly positive is reverted immediately and anything overtly negative is revertned in a similar manner. However, when edits come with reliable sources/references, it is much more difficult to revert.

At the point of adding referenced edits, it is important to first review the entire article; make sure you are not repeating information already present in the article or make sure it is the proper place for the edit.

A review of the entire article with a criticism of how and what could be improved first would be helpful as a class.

Will you meet with opposition? Of course, but when you do so take it to the talk page and explain the logic for the edit. Another way to go about this if there will be dramatic changes to the article, then make a sub-page you edit at will. Ask for assitance from other editors to review as you progress. If it gains agreement then it can then be inserted in this article. Seek assistance from those who are critics of Mormonism. They will be able to broaden your perspective of what is acceptable and what is not. LDS, as all people, can be blind to their own POV at times. It is jarring at first to realize how strong a POV is held, but in time each editor gets the hang of how to edit the article.

Thank you for making an effort to improve Wikipedia. Thank you for making it a class project. Would that this happened more often. Make sure each of the students registers also. Registered users are more respected than those who do not. Cheers and good luck, -^StormRider 06:41, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

In addition, consider making proposals here (on the discussion page) for obvious improvements to the Article. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 06:50, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Opencontent, there are loads upon loads of Wikipedia policy pages; it would be ideal if you and your class read them all, but of course that is infeasible and unfair to ask so much of you. If your interest is in elevating this article, or any other, to featured status, I highly recommend that you understand the good article criteria and featured article criteria. I, and surely others, am more than willing to help with the process of submitting the article for review for featured status once significant improvements have been made. I will make further comments on your talk page. As tedder has suggested, you should carefully consider whether editing this article will provide the experience you desire for your students, rather than having them improve more obscure articles that are in need of references. ...comments? ~BFizz 03:18, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Almost forgot, you should also check out the Wikipedia style guide for LDS-related articles, though it may or may not be out of date. ...comments? ~BFizz 03:22, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the three most important things I'd like to suggest for the BYU students are: (1) make conservative (and I'm not talking political) changes, and if there are any problems, bring them up on the talk page, (2) work to replace existing primary source references where possible with citations to broad overview books about Mormonism that are considered by both Mormons and non-Mormons to be the preeminent secondary sources on Mormonism broadly, and (3) write as if you weren't Mormon, and were writing about Mormonism the way an entomologist might write about an interesting newly-discovered insect. If you do these three things, you can't go too far astray. COGDEN 00:23, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

church attendance counts

This edit was in good faith, though I think the sources were lacking. I seem to recall that Ostling's Mormon America discussed the inflated nature of LDS records. Does anyone have that (or another source) handy? tedder (talk) 20:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it was in good faith; I'm also not convinced that The Cumorah Project's analysis of attendance and growth qualifies as a reliable source. I'd also like to see other source(s) to back this up. —C.Fred (talk) 20:53, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it isn't a reliable source, though it might sneak through if termed "The Cumorah Project says..". Still, there should be more reliable sources out there. I just don't have MA or other books anymore. tedder (talk) 20:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

TrulySaid either doesn't understand or doesn't care for WP:3RR and seems to be ignoring requests for discourse or better references for their additions. I agree that they're in good faith - just not having followed in spirit of the wiki. Is it time to WP:RPP until we can get this sorted? Doriftu Speak Up. 22:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Reporting him and having him blocked short-term for 3RR/EW is probably the best we can hope for. Page protection might be appropriate if the incident involved a lot of editors (and/or sockpuppets of a single editor), but that doesn't seem to be the case here, at least not now. Richwales (talk · contribs) 22:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

This topic is a non-starter for me. It comes around periodically when some editors is incensed that the LDS Church inflates their membership numbers; they don't know how, but they are certain the evil empire is jiggering the numbers in order to appear more important. Of course no international church of any size knows the exact number of their faithful attend church weekly. For example, Catholics; does anyone really believe their membership numbers are a reflection of truly participating members? When next in Europe, pass by during mass and count. How about Anglicans? You take the church and none of them has a mechanism capable of counting only active, participating members. Even more important, there is not a legitimate system anywhere in the world that can count them. Making mountains out of mole hills. Move on. -^StormRider 06:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Partially agree/disagree. As I said earlier (see the next section below), I would have no problem citing estimates regarding attendance, activity, self-identification, etc., as long as the exact nature of the cited figure(s) is clearly stated and the material is backed up by a citation to a highly reliable source or sources. I would not, however, approve of language stating or implying that the LDS Church is engaging in deception regarding its number of adherents; not only would such a statement clearly be POV, but I can't imagine any way that such a statement could possibly be substantiated by a reliable source. Richwales (talk · contribs) 17:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Membership numbers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are very accurate. They have no reason to inflate the report given at each world broadcast, (April conference and October conference). Tune in April 2, 2011 (Saturday, 10am Utah time). My Father was a ward clerk and membership records are considered sacred; membership changes are linked to the database in Salt Lake City. Call them up if you have a question. Didn't you see the movie about LDS missionary, John Groberg The Other Side of Heaven? Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 04:40, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe Charles Edwin is a troll, and maybe I am feeding said troll in my naivete, so please forgive me if that is the case. "They have no reason to inflate the report given at each world broadcast" - that is the biggest BS statement I have read in a long time. There are a hundred reasons why the church would want to inflate its numbers. Not saying they do - just that the incentive is definitely there.--Descartes1979 (talk) 04:46, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Not a troll. I had to verify definitions: "a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages", from Troll (Internet). That said, I can see why you would think my statement is "bull-shit", excuse the French, apologies to the French. Saying there are a hundred reasons to exaggerate is also a stretch — there are probably seven. Members of the church may want to see higher numbers, but the leadership of the church, the ones that announce the membership, are more interested in honesty and accuracy. You can find the membership numbers broken down by country in the church's annual paperback almanac. Hope this helps. btw, I consider this an extraneous cul-de-sac, so I guess those participating are 'trolls'. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 09:31, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry that is BS too - there is heavy incentive for church leadership to inflate numbers. If it was about honesty and accuracy, then why don't they report inactivity rates, or the number of people that resign from the church, or talk about the Pew surveys that show self declared affiliation and growth rates far below the numbers that the LDS church reports? Or open their counts for public scrutiny? Obviously this is my POV (but it is a pretty well informed one I like to think after watching countless hours of general conference reports), but it is pretty clear that they trumpet these numbers to propagandize the church membership into believing that "all is well". They do the EXACT same thing in Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses and a bunch of other New Religious Movements. Again - I am not disputing the accuracy of the numbers, but I think you are just flat wrong if you don't think there is an incentive for church leadership to do so.--Descartes1979 (talk) 16:35, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

My edit REVISED

Why is the http://www.cumorah.com/ NOT a reliable source? It has research, analysis, and resources concerning the membership claims listed. Some of the researchers are LDS, too. I also referenced lds.org as a source right at first concerning your membership claim. I'm new to this venue and it is not my intention to war. I would like to see some sort of edit to correct the misrepresentation of the numbers in the article. The LDS Church is known to inflate the numbers by counting inactive members and others who no longer participate. The LDS Church requires members to officially resign in writing before they ever take people off their membership rolls. Many people don't bother to officially resign yet they are still counted. I think it is misleading and inaccurate to count people as members who no longer believe in the church. Here's another source to support my edit. http://mormoninfo.org/news-info/news/lds-church-really-fastest-growing-church It is coming to my attention that this article is being monitored and edited by BYU students. My question is: Are you being neutral by rejecting valid sources that challenge your membership numbers? Is it you that gets to determine what is a valid source or not a valid source? Are you only going to accept LDS sources? If you are...then you aren't being neutral. Please comment as to a reasonable solution. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|(TrulySaid (talk) 23:35, 31 January 2011 (UTC)) comment added by TrulySaid (talk • contribs) 22:19, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

From looking at the "about" page for cumorah.com and mormoninfo.org, it seems to me that these websites generally fall under the category of Self-published sources. In other words, they are not scholarly sources. See also the rule of thumb regarding usage by other sources. The exception in this case is lds.org; the Wikipedia guideline for self-published sources states that "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field..." and goes on to list some constraints. I do believe, however, that there are scholarly sources that challenge LDS membership numbers; we just need to find them. ...comments? ~BFizz 01:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Roughly how the LDS Church counts its membership is described in this press release, and there is a theological reason for why the LDS Church counts its membership the way it does. Nevertheless, the most appropriate number for membership--if we had it--would probably be the number of self-identified Latter-day Saints worldwide. We don't know that number. It's certainly less than the LDS Church number, but it's also larger than the number of people who are active attendees. Many inactive Mormons still consider themselves to be LDS. So I think the bottom line is, nobody knows how many Latter-day Saints there are, and the only source we have regarding the methodology of counting members is the LDS Church itself, which in this case is credible (the church admits something for which it has been criticized, which makes the admission credible), but I'd rather cite to a reliable secondary source. COGDEN 03:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I would be OK with including a smaller figure if a more reliable source can be found and if the source credibly documents the nature of the figure (e.g., estimated number of active attendees). Those may be big if's, though. Richwales (talk · contribs) 03:30, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Young's polygamy

I recently saw this sentence removed, then restored:

“ According to LDS Church records, Young was "sealed" to as many as 56 women, far more than the estimated 32 brides sealed to Joseph Smith during his rule. ”

I had mixed feelings about both actions. But if we keep it, we need to fix a few issues:

1. We don't describe, at all, what the scare-quoted "sealed" is supposed to mean.
2. "according to LDS Church records...as many as" - why are we citing church records, which should provide a solid number, and then invoking the speculative phrase "as many as"? Also, if we cite church records, we should cite church records. The provided ref is [See Tullidge, Edward, History of Salt Lake City, 132-35 (Original from the University of Michigan, 1886).]
3. "far more" - what's the point of this editorialization?
4. "during his rule" - ambiguous, but dripping with POV regardless of whether it is referring to Smith or to Young

I do feel it important to mention Young's polygamy here, but this sentence fails on so many levels. If nobody else does, I'll try my hand a little later at rewriting this atrocity. ...comments? ~BFizz 19:11, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Roughly, what is needed seems to be this:

• the military was coming because LDS were practicing polygamy
• Young was married to up to at least N women (note "married", not "sealed", no explanation really necessary). This is worth mentioning because of the first point (why the military was coming).

Right? In that case, it would be nice to cite something removed from the primary source (LDS records). tedder (talk) 19:28, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

It would be more scholarly to use the conservative phrase "at least N" (minimum), rather than the speculative "up to N" (maximum). The numbers for each phrase would be different, of course. ...comments? ~BFizz 22:07, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

You're right. Or "there were at least N documented", but that's bordering POV, because it basically states "but there were inevitably more". I'm not a great wordsmith; I'm more concerned that the main points are hit. tedder (talk) 22:45, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Mormon Helping Hands

I was throwing around the idea of adding a section on Mormon Helping Hands. I was thinking of using a few various newspaper articles that mention their activities such as this and this. But before my efforts get rolled back, I'd like to know what everyone thinks about it. Cheers, w7jkt ^talk 14:51, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The charitable work organized by the church or its members should probably have a section (in general, not just Helping Hands). Other articles like Catholic Church should probably have such a section as well. ...comments? ~BFizz 03:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, well I've started work on a section here but it's somewhat pathetic as it stands. I just don't have a ton of time to put toward it. I'll keep working on it, but there is also LDS Philanthropies which we could draw from, but it is quite shabby. As far as other churches, I can't really speak for them, but I feel the same as you. Regards, Firinne ^talk 17:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard

Having just seen this topic discussed on the NPOV Noticeboard, and some of the discussions here, and then after reviewing the article itself, I would agree that the article is presenting a point of view that is biased toward showing LDS-perceived similarities between themselves and Orthodox Christians. On one hand, I see it as a sincerely-held belief and therefore reasonable to include, on the other hand, I find it to be disingenuous and potentially deceptive as well. Presenting this as a neutral point of view almost seems impossible, because you will either have people who stridently believe the LDS view or stridently take the opposing view.

• The person of Christ that is believed by LDS is a literally spirit-born creation of a God who was himself created by another God.
• The person of Christ that is believed by Orthodoxy is an eternal component of an eternal God.

So if you simply strip away all the extra words and leave 'Christ', they're the same, but, adding in the facts, they are not.

• In LDS, humanity was created after Christ, spirit-born as well, but in a different manner, into a spiritual pre-existence with God, and come to Earth to grow and be tested.
• In Orthodoxy, humanity is created on Earth simply because it is God's will, formed from dust on the sixth day, never existing before.

Without question, there are significant and meaningful differences in belief, these are just a couple of examples. To me, it is puzzling that LDS take such great pains to seem like Orthodoxy when such distinctions exist.

How this should relate to the article or be incorporated into it, I am not sure. But it definitely is worth consideration. -- Avanu (talk) 16:13, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Avanu: Orthodox christianity which is split into the oriental branch (like copts) and the eastern orthodox branch (like Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Moscow etc.) is widely accepted by christians and theologians to be part of christianity, not only because it shares a long history with the roman-catholic church and some of its communities are the oldest of known christianity, but because they all agree upon the Nicene Creed, as the minimal consens of christian doctrine. --217.50.56.198 (talk) 18:46, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what your point was there, but OK? I didn't mean Orthodox as the Eastern or Oriental, but as all Christians sharing a 'traditional belief'. See 'orthodox' in Wiktionary (or below). -- Avanu (talk) 23:08, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

orthodox (adjective)(comparative - more orthodox, superlative - most orthodox)

1.Conforming to the established, accepted or traditional faith or religion.

2.Adhering to whatever is traditional, customary or generally accepted.

I came from the RSN page. This whole topic is bizarre. LDS Mormons are clearly Christian in that they believe in Christ as Messiah. The fact that some more popular Christian sects don't believe they are "true" Christians is meaningless, as Baptists often don't think of Catholics as true Christians either. The reliable sources call them Christians - specifically the nontrinitarian branch of Christians. Hence Wikipedia has to call them Christians. Someone's personal religious beliefs not wanting to accept that isn't important here. DreamGuy (talk) 23:16, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

How do we get a reliable and unbiased source for a person's personal belief? DreamGuy, I'm not sure if you read my description above, but there is a clear difference. Whether that means they are *called* Christian is one thing, but without question there is a difference. Some reliable sources that are available to us say Mormons are Christian, some reliable sources say that they are not Christian, do we include some and ignore the others? -- Avanu (talk) 23:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I find recent changes to this article very troubling. The current version states that LDS Church "views itself" as Christian. Exactly whose definition are we using? Since the LDS Church is not claiming that it is orthodox (as in the majority of Christians and not the Eastern Orthodox Church), I don't see why their standards are being applied to this article. I'm reverting. This is blatant POV. Ltwin (talk) 01:00, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Ltwin, I would like to see how it is POV to declare what LDS itself says about itself. Also, since people are asking for Reliable Sources, here are some to review (took about 20 minutes to gather up):

Sectarian sources

Catholic stances

From http://www.catholic.com/library/Distinctive_Beliefs_of_Mormon.asp (appears to be a biased source, pro-Catholic)

Still, it isn’t correct to call Mormons Protestants, because doing so implies they hold to the essentials of Christianity—what C. S. Lewis termed "mere Christianity." The fact is, they don’t. Gordon B. Hinckley, the current president and prophet of the Mormon church, says (in a booklet called What of the Mormons?) that he and his co-religionists "are no closer to Protestantism than they are to Catholicism."

That isn’t quite right—it would be better to say Mormons are even further from Catholicism than from Protestantism. But Hinckley is right in saying that Mormons are very different from Catholics and Protestants. Let’s examine some of these differences. We can start by considering the young men who come to your door.

From http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm

"As Catholics, we have to make very clear to them their practice of so-called rebaptism is unacceptable from the standpoint of Catholic truth."

In 2001 the Vatican's doctrinal congregation issued a ruling that baptism conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be considered a valid Christian baptism, thus requiring converts from that religion to Catholicism to receive a Catholic baptism.

"We don't have an issue with the fact that the Catholic Church doesn't recognize our baptisms, because we don't recognize theirs," Otterson said. "It's a difference of belief."

Lutheran stances

From http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2239

The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, together with the vast majority of Christian denominations in the United States, does not regard the Mormon church as a Christian church. That is because the official writings of Mormonism deny fundamental teachings of orthodox Christianity.

From http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Worship/Learning-Center/FAQs/Rebaptism.aspx

Although Mormons may use water — and lots of it — and while they may say "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," their teaching about the nature of God is substantially different from that of orthodox, creedal Christianity. Because the Mormon understanding of the Word of God is not the same as the Christian understanding, it is correct to say that Christian Baptism has not taken place.

Methodist stances

From http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=2&mid=3558

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, by self-definition, does not fit within the bounds of the historic, apostolic tradition of Christian faith," delegates said.

While the Mormons identify themselves as Christian, they also "explicitly (profess) distinction and separateness from the ecumenical community," delegates said.

"Sacramental Faithfulness" also recommends that Mormons seeking membership in the United Methodist Church first initiate their own formal removal from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Non-sectarian sources

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Macmillan 1992

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/EoM&CISOPTR=4391&REC=1

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not see itself as one Christian denomination among many, but rather as God's latter-day RESTORATION of the fulness of Christian faith and practice. Thus, from its earliest days LDS Christians sought to distinguish themselves from Christians of other traditions. Other forms of Christianity ... are viewed as incomplete....

Therefore, the designation "saint" reflects attachment to the New Testament church, and also designates a difference from Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant Christianity in the current DISPENSATION.

In response, and for a variety of other reasons, some Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Christians have been reticent to apply the term "Christian" to Latter-day Saints.

Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2008/09/a_debate_are_mo.html

Page takes no position and recounts information from both sides. Makes a reference to http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/09/003-is-mormonism-christian-31

BBC Religion Information Pages

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/mormon/beliefs/christian.shtml

Page takes no position and recounts information from both sides.

Contemporary Mormonism

Social Science Perspectives

Edited by Marie Cornwall, Tim B. Heaton, and Lawrence A. Young

from http://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/62hka9hf9780252069598.html

Two fundamental questions run through these essays. Each author presumes that Mormonism is a distinctive religious phenomenon. The questions are, how distinctive is Mormonism and why?

"...Mormonism realized and elaborated a religiocultural system that separates it from every other currently existing manifestation of the Judeo-Christian tradition."

"the very facts that distinctions must be made in descriptions of the development of male and female Saints denotes a crucial difference between Mormonism and more traditional forms of Christianity." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avanu (talk • contribs) 01:15, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Wow these collections of sources seem to prove my point. Thank you. First of all, the Catholic, Lutheran, etc, sources really don't matter because what Mormonism is is not determined by those outside of it. The other sources you quote do not say that the LDS Church is not Christian, only that it is outside of traditional Christianity. No one is arguing that Mormons are "traditional" or "orthodox" Christians. However, I have yet to see a scholarly source which says they are not Christian. Ltwin (talk) 01:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not getting into an edit war over this. Someone else can remove the weasel wording that has been placed in the introduction. Ltwin (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

What other kind of wording is reliable then? To use the word "is" declares that it is so. But since people seem to be asking for outside sources, because apparently religious sources won't do (for some reason), the only thing we are left with is people who probably don't care. How do you properly reconcile a non-religious statement like "...Mormonism realized and elaborated a religiocultural system that separates it from every other currently existing manifestation of the Judeo-Christian tradition." ? I'm not interested in an edit war either, but the sources seem to all declare this particular religion is unique. So it seems simplest to simply say "this is who they say they are". How is that biased? -- Avanu (talk) 01:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

What if I wrote in the introduction to Catholic Church: "The Catholic Church (aka Roman Catholic Church) sees itself as a worldwide Christian Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome"? The implication is that it's not true—that they are not Christian. It would not be tolerated if phrased that way at that article or at Eastern Orthodox Church or at Anglicanism or Lutheranism or Arianism or Unitarianism, etc., and it shouldn't be tolerated here. Ltwin (talk) 01:53, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The reasons "religious sources won't do" is the same reason fundamentalist Protestant sources don't do for determining weather Roman Catholicism is a Christian tradition or the whore of Babylon. Ltwin (talk) 01:59, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

What is interesting here is that several of you keep saying it doesn't matter what other people say about LDS. To quote DreamGuy from above "LDS Mormons are clearly Christian in that they believe in Christ as Messiah. The fact that some more popular Christian sects don't believe they are "true" Christians is meaningless."

Yet when I provide a source, edited by LDS scholars and non-LDS scholars, used by students at Brigham Young University, before I can even finish adding the attribution, you guys remove it as biased. Who is it biased against to describe them as they describe themselves. I think you are looking at this with a biased POV if you think that such a thing is biased, and if you want it ONLY as they themselves see it (which is what I gave you anyway). We don't deal in Truth in Wikipedia, we deal in what Reliable Sources say. Reliable sources say Mormons ARE Christian *and* Reliable Sources (non-religious) say they are not, so what am I supposed to have here? A definitive, declarative statement (like you seem to prefer) or one that reflects what Mormons say without coming off as negative? -- Avanu (talk) 02:04, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

From your example:

"is a restorationist Christian religion" (many claim Mormons are not Christian, but some consider them Christian)(disputed as being too certain about itself) "is a worldwide Christian Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome" (some claim Catholics are not Christian, but generally they are considered Christian)

That's the difference. Your asking for wording that ascribes a dead-set certainty. Yet the available sources I am finding are not in agreement with that conclusion. You ask me to disregard the religious-based sources, so in looking at what is left, we find:

• "separate from every other currently existing manifestation of the Judeo-Christian tradition"
• "crucial difference between Mormonism and more traditional forms of Christianity"

So what kind of logical basis do you want? I used almost *direct* wording from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. This is allowed as a textbook at BYU and was created as a reference guide to Mormonism. You're accusing me of bias, because I'm not letting you off the hook to put wording that is certain of itself, rather than faithful to the sources we have. -- Avanu (talk) 02:26, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what you are trying to come off as. I know what I thought when I read your edit: "This is a sly way to avoid saying that they are Christian." I'm not assuming bad faith. I'm sure you are trying to help, but the phrase "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ... sees itself as God's latter-day restoration of the fulness of Christian faith and practice" is POV and weasel wording. The fact that many don't consider them "real" is covered in the article, and perhaps, a sentence should be added to the lead which notes that many Christians question weather they are Christian. However, rearranging the opening sentence in such a way so as to avoid stating that it's a Christian religion is not the way to note that the LDS Church is outside the mainstream. Ltwin (talk) 02:25, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

"This is a sly way to avoid saying that they are Christian." Are we saying they *are* Christian? Is that your point of view or do we have a reliable source that ascribes this definition to them? For example, should we change the lead in the Branch Davidian article from this first paragraph (as it is now), to the second paragraph?:

The Branch Davidians (also known as "The Branch") are a Protestant sect that originated in 1955 from a schism in the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists ("Davidians"), a so-called reform movement that began within the Seventh-day Adventist Church ("Adventists") around 1930.

The Branch Davidians (also known as "The Branch") are branch of millenianist Protestant Christians that originated in 1955 from a schism in the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists ("Davidians"), a so-called reform movement that began within the Seventh-day Adventist Church ("Adventists") around 1930.

I'm certainly not going to call Mormons a sect or cult. But using such a declarative statement when that status is so disputed seems clearly POV-pushing to me. -- Avanu (talk) 02:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not actually sure what the difference between those two are? Unless you are referring to the word "sect" which is discouraged according to WP:weasel wording and should be changed as in every day language it carries a negative connotation; however, in a technical sense the word "sect" does not necessarily imply negativity. So follow Wikipedia policy; however, we're not here to discuss Branch Davidians. Ltwin (talk) 02:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

It is not disputed in reliable sources. Academics who study religion consider them a Christian group. What more do you want? You can't manufacture a dispute, it has to exist in reliable sources.Griswaldo (talk) 02:40, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

From the sources that I have found so far, it seems to be that Mormonism is considered at the very *least*, outside the traditional, so presenting it as just another run-of-the-mill group seems a bit POV when sources say otherwise. The dispute seems to be clearly there in reliable (non-religious) sources. I spent 20 minutes looking and quickly found that to be the case. Please someone actually provide source(s) that show otherwise if you like. Otherwise, let the language show what the sources say. -- Avanu (talk) 02:50, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Who said anything about run-of-the mill? Yes they are much more unorthodox on the spectrum of Christian groups, but they were born out of Protestantism and that's a historical fact. Controversy only comes from some other Christians who do not want to recognize them as Christian, but scholars of religion, even those who also consider them a new religious movement, consider them a Christian one. Your sources don't say what you claim they do. The scholarly sources are indeed calling it an unorthodox Christian sect, and the BBC and the Boston Globe aren't addressing the matter in a relevant manner. What they are addressing is the religious controversy within Christianity about how to categorize Mormons, and not within academia or secular scholarship. Here's a pretty standard social science perspective. If you want a list of sources I can provide them. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 03:02, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The source Avanu provided (Encyclopedia of Mormonism page 277-278) says "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is distinguished from other Christian churches in several fundamental ways." It definitely and unambiguously considers them Christian. Ltwin (talk) 02:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Source for that conclusion? I went and read it.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not see itself as one Christian denomination among many, but rather as God's latter-day restoration of the fulness of Christian faith and practice. Thus, from its earliest days LDS Christians sought to distinguish themselves from Christians of other traditions. Other forms of Christianity, while bearing much truth and doing much good under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, are viewed as incomplete, lacking the authority of the priesthood of God, the temple ordinances, the comprehensive understanding of the Plan of Salvation, and the nonparadoxical understanding of the Godhead. Therefore, the designation "saint" reflects attachment to the New Testament church, and also designates a difference from Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant Christianity in the current dispensation.

From Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Macmillan, 1992 ( http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Christians_and_Christianity )

Now please tell me HOW my words are biased when they were almost verbatim from what is inarguably a reliable source? (and in context as well) -- Avanu (talk) 03:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Because you use weasel words. Ltwin (talk) 03:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

So the source must be weaseling too I guess since I simply quoted from there. Not sure how to make ya happy, but I did try. Figured such a source was unimpeachable, and quoting faithfully from it was reasonable in light of your disapproval of the first-try edit. -- Avanu (talk) 03:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

No it's the way you are reading the source. The source is saying the LDS church "sees itself" as the only true Christian church. The source is not saying that the LDS church "sees itself" as Christian. The source assumes they are Christian (thus phrases such as "from its earliest days LDS Christians sought to distinguish themselves from Christians of other traditions"). Ltwin (talk)

What I don't get is what you're trying to prove with that source. It does identify Mormonism as Christian.Griswaldo (talk) 03:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

To answer you both, they say they are different from all other Christian churches. They do not say "we are Christian" in the source, they say "God's latter-day restoration of the fulness of Christian faith and practice." Then, as shorthand, they say the term 'LDS Christians'. So traditional Christians say they are a danish. Mormons say they're the danish, but the rest are all doughnuts. It is like everyone is in agreement that Mormons are not the same, but you want to apply a term to make them sound the same, despite sources which say they are not.

To quote Caddyshack, which I've never actually seen, but the quote seems to apply: "The Zen philosopher Basha once wrote, 'A flute with no holes, is not a flute. A donut with no hole, is a Danish.' He was a funny guy." -- Avanu (talk) 03:26, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

No the sources say they are a weird kind of danish (if danish = Christian), not that they are a donut. That's the issues. You are twisting it to high heaven and I have no idea why. You realize that most Christian groups, except the very liberal and ecumenical ones, believe that other Christians aren't "true Christians" as well right? That only their group has discovered the right way to worship, etc.? And yes, once again, as this goes the LDS is as far afield of the others as possible but that doesn't mean they don't belong to the same general family. Most scholars treat them that way, we should to.Griswaldo (talk) 03:29, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Avanu, the source clearly considers them Christians. Your statement that "It is like everyone is in agreement that Mormons are not the same, but you want to apply a term to make them sound the same, despite sources which say they are not," to me clearly shows a bias against Mormonism. No one is saying that Mormons are Nicene Christians only that they are Christians. There are many different kinds of Christians. Ltwin (talk) 03:32, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Gris, it hasn't been my experience in general that traditional Christians reject each other's baptism, which seems to be a central point in their dispute over whether they consider each other Christian. (although I have seen it, so I agree it does occur). I think I'm just stuck on the absolute certainty sounding term in the Lead, and feel it doesn't line up with what is being reported/sourced/said, etc.

Ltwin, "everyone is in agreement that Mormons are not the same" includes the statements from Mormons. I wasn't leaving their 2 cents out of that statement.

Also, I think I'm done on this article for today. I will pursue more research at some point, it seems fairly evident that the POV is debatable, but I'm not feeling up to doing all that work at the moment and I need to actually get work done for real life too. Thanks for the feedback, comments, discussion, etc. It is definitely an interesting topic. -- Avanu (talk) 03:37, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

We don't define who is or is not "Christian" based on who does or does not accept each other's baptisms. I responded to you at the NPOV/N about this issue, though it was after the IP asked to move the discussion here. See Believer's baptism, because the issue is not as straight forward as you seem to think. All other Christians do not "accept" all other Christian forms of baptism. That's simply not true. If anything, the fact that Mormons also baptize, regardless of how other's view that baptism, is a strong indication that that they are Christian, because that's one of the things that Christians do. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 12:52, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Focus on improving the article

The debate on "is it Christian" is getting both circular and endless. Please note Wikipedia, including Wikipedia talk pages, are not forums to advance original research or theories. To borrow from summarization of a recent arbitration discussion:

Article talk pages should not be used by editors for proposing unpublished solutions, forwarding original ideas, redefining terms, or so forth. Although more general discussion may be permissible in some circumstances, it will not be tolerated when it becomes tendentious, overwhelms the page, impedes productive work, or is otherwise disruptive.

Responses on this line of discussion, in any section, that aren't explicitly couched in terms of improving the article (such as by discussing wording, additions/removals of text) using reliable sources in their basis will be removed. That means avoiding original research or synthesis, especially when religious texts such as the bible are used. tedder (talk) 23:22, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources on this subject give us several views to choose from. Shall we include all views? Or shall we, as you say, synthesize or distill a phrase that incorporates all views? I don't have a perfect answer, but as long as people are willing to debate this in a civil tone and willing to research, I don't think it is our place to curtail the discussion. -- Avanu (talk) 23:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to use reliable sources and achieve whatever consensus you'd like for placing specific text on the article. However, giving synth/original research on definitions that are related to the concept of this article are not. tedder (talk) 00:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

As people are wont to say, "I don't have a dog in this fight." I am simply giving discussion advice. Lay off the lecture please. The information above is neither synth or OR, it is common and easily researchable and my discussion advice was merely focused on the specific question being asked. -- Avanu (talk) 00:20, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Please ease off with the condescension. The lecture was to explain the instruction I have given with my admin hat on. tedder (talk) 01:34, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Not my intention to condescend. I came to the page just today in order to provide another perspective, and it seemed (based on the indentions) that you were replying to me. Since I just got here, I thought it seemed a bit premature to characterize my Talk page contributes as 'circular and endless'. I might have simply misunderstood, my apologies for not phrasing things well enough in my reply to you. -- Avanu (talk) 01:48, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Ahhh. I see what you are saying. This isn't in response to you or even specifically this section- it's in response to all the replies that are flying back and forth about "Christian or not". They aren't all in this section. I'll update the sections and text slightly to reflect this. tedder (talk) 02:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Ideally, we would find wording that neither commits to one of the points of view, nor deprecates it by making it seem to be a dubious claim. I suggest something like this:

The church classifies itself as a Christian religion.(ref to official church statement) Among scholars and other churches that address the question, opinion is divided: some agree with the Christian designation, and others assert that its teachings place it outside Christianity.(footnote to notable opinions on both sides)

Thoughts? alanyst ^/talk/ 03:07, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Opinion is hardly divided among scholars, and the POV of other Christians is not germane here. If it was there would be no Christian groups, only those that "consider themselves Christian". For all of its difference from most Christian sects, scholars are for the most part content to call Mormonism Christian. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 03:12, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I like you Gris, but source this please. (if you like, I'm not going to insist) "Opinion is hardly divided among scholars" -- Avanu (talk) 03:27, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Avanu I gave you a source above already -- [2] (if you think it looks unreliable I assure it it is not. It is an online version of a printed text, written by leading sociologists of religion). Here's another: Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Active New Religions, Sects and Cults, "Mormons - Officially known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS), and often as simply LDS or Saints (non-members are known as Gentiles), this is a 'U.S. Christian polytheistic millenarian group." Both the OED and Britannica call them Christian, despite the rabid misinformation the IP is spreading.Griswaldo (talk) 12:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Griswaldo, your source http://hirr.hartsem.edu/ency/Mormomism.htm looks quite good, but the article does not declare mormons to be belonging to the Christian family, like we do in the article. In the given article it is defined as a "restorationist" movement. That is different than what the WP article says "a restorationist Christian religion". What makes it confusing to readers, and not clarifying, is that the expression "restorationist Christian religion" is linked to two WP articles, one of them being christianity. Readers might get a wrong impression from that, since Restorationism_(Christian_primitivism) would be enough. From thereon people could be referred to christianity, so we would have indirection. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

You must be joking. Here is what the sources says. "In its Christian primitivism and antinomianism, it was akin to many other "restorationist" movements, such as the Campbellites ..." What about "Christian primitivism" eludes you here? The source goes on to say - "During the first few years, the theology of Mormonism, while innovative in certain respects, was not remarkably different from that of its sectarian cousins on the "left" of the Christian spectrum of the time, particularly in its theodicy, Christology, soteriology, and eschatology." This source adequately places Mormonism within the large Christian family, while also paying full attention to what makes it so unorthodox. Can you please stop the tendentious POV pushing.Griswaldo (talk) 13:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Griswaldo: Not explicitly like we do. If the author wanted to strengthen that mormons are part of christianity, why didn't he/she declare them to be a christian religion in the article you provided?

I am pretty sure about the reason the author didn't and that is because of the fact that mormons' belonging to christianity is disputed. And that not only protestantism is unwilling to consider Mormons as part of the Christian family, but eastern orthodox churches, the roman-catholic church and some scholars as well, doesn't make the Wikipedia article more convincing. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 14:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

(ec) I'm trying to find wording that someone with a "yes, they're Christian" POV and someone with a "no, they're not" POV could both read and say, "Yeah, that's accurate." Picking one side or the other won't do since the definition of the label Christian is a highly subjective one for which no scholarly consensus can be said to exist. alanyst ^/talk/ 03:29, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Let me address the criticism of some, by first stating, that the Oxford English Dictionary and the Britannica are no references of original research or theories, but accepted and reliable sources for definitions. If those two disagree with Wikipedia, Wikipedia really has to give good explanations why we call mormons christians. Now some users have pointed to sources of major christian denominations, like lutherans and catholics voices. Then some said they cannot define what is christian, which is not fully correct, because they are part of christianity (nobody would doubt that), and what is christianity is defined by a normative consensus among christians (including catholics and lutherans), and to a great part by theologians, because they have deeper knowledge about christian history, traditions and fundamental basis of faith. One of these expert sources is the Theologische Realenzyklopädie in german, one of the biggest encyclopedias in theology, whose editors come from all around the world, not just from Germany. And in this widely accepted encyclopedia, mormons are not seen as part of christianity. So how can we oppose to Britannica, OED and TR, all of which are expert references, by stating that mormons are christians because they call themselves so? Then anybody who calls himself christian, is a christian according to the definition of Wikipedia. That is what I would call full arbitrariness. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 07:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

IP, I'm sorry but you are full of misinformation. I just checked the OED. Do you care to know how it defined "Mormom"? "A member or adherent of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a millenary Christian sect founded in 1830 at Manchester, New York, by Joseph Smith." Britannica doesn't have any clear declarations in either direction, but it clearly places Mormonism within the Christian revivialist movement of the early 19th Century. For instance, "The religion Smith founded originated amid the great fervor of competing Christian revivalist movements in early 19th-century America, but departed from them in its proclamation of a new dispensation. Through Smith, God had restored the 'true church'--i.e., the primitive Christian church--and had reasserted the true faith from which the various Christian churches had strayed." Your theological arguments are becoming tendentious. We get it. You don't believe Mormons are Christians like yourself, and you base this on various theological arguments. You are very welcome to that view but we follow reliable sources here, not your theological opinion. Please stop treating this talk page like a forum.Griswaldo (talk) 12:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I see now what your OED mistake was. What you linked to above is not the OED, it is Oxford's "World Dictionary". I have access to the OED through my academic institution and would not be able to link it in a way that others can see. Someone who also has access is welcome to verify what I wrote.Griswaldo (talk) 12:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The Britannica only talks about the roots mormonism was coming from: competing Christian revivalist movements. You now want to tell me that this is a statement that shall lead us to define the LDS church to be christian? Because they were founded during a time of Christian revivalist movements we conclude that it is a christian religion? --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:32, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

That's right, it only talks about it as a Christian revivalist movement, and it never says that it isn't Christian now. Using it as evidence that reliable sources claim the LDS church is not Christian is completely off base, and that is my point.Griswaldo (talk) 13:40, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I was saying the Britannica doesn't define mormons to be a christian religion, which is correct. Also the Britannica article doesn't say mormons are a Christian revivalist movement like you claim, it speaks of a "religion [...] amid the great fervor of competing Christian revivalist movements." Whether that means mormons were found surrounded by competing Christian revivalist movements and themselves *not* one of them, or whether it means they are themselves seen as one of the competitors is not clear. The latter case would nevertheless not implicitly mean Britannica defining the LDS church to be a Christian religion. There is a difference between "Christian revivalist movement" and Christian religion. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

That does not mean that it isn't refering to it as a Christian religion. The exact classification of the LDS isn't not entirely agreed upon. Some prefer calling it a novel religious movement, a "religion", some a sect, but no one in the Academy denies its connection to Christianity. If you read on in the source I quoted above you'll see exactly who the objectors to the Christianity connection are. "Since then, mainstream Protestantism, especially the more evangelical and fundamentalist varieties, has generally been unwilling to consider Mormons as part of the Christian family, despite the continuing Mormon claims to being the one, true, authentic church of Jesus Christ, restored to usher in a new dispensation of the fullness of the Gospel." We already know this. Many Christians do not believe they are Christian, but we don't write from the religious perspectives of many Christians. You are rather clearly arguing from such a perspective however. I will not engage in this discussion any longer. I will revert any disruptive attempts to push this POV into the article itself. Otherwise I will ignore your talk page forum posts. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Someone here in this discussion tries to divide christians between "nicene christians" (those who accept the Nicene creed in 325) and non-nicene christians, of those who don't accept. I would like to acknowledge everybody that there is no such term as a "nicene christian", and that is where the mistake lies. Theologians see the Nicene creed as the minimal consensus of all christians in the world, and since mormons don't accept the creed, they don't belong to christianity. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 07:29, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

We certainly seem to have a lot of interested IP users, but if its not too much trouble, would you guys go register for an account? I'm not sure what Wiki etiquette says about suggesting that, so my apologies if I breached a protocol, but I think it would help in determining who is who. Thanks much. -- Avanu (talk) 14:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)