Talk:Veganism

Let's Change the Vegan Info Box Picture

Is the current picture for the vegan info box really the best we can do? It just looks like someone showing off some fancy vegan dish they made. I feel like something akin to vegetarianism (minus the dairy products) would be much better. I seem to recall a similar picture on this page a while back. --MosheA (talk) 00:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

We used to have a picture of vegetables and fruit, but it was pretty dull. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 17:29, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I think it's fine, if you had one like on the vegetarianism page but without the dairy products it would just be a big pile of fruit and veg, better suited to the raw veganism page. It's going to be near on impossible to encapsulate the full spectrum of vegan foods in a picture that size so an example dish seems sensible to me. I don't think it looks fancy at all by the way, I have pictures of much fancier fare. I'm more worried about the picture of a burger half way down the page, it looks like a rodent with diarrhoea has crawled over it. Muleattack (talk) 13:02, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the diarrhoea is mayonnaise. :) SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 18:32, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The real issue is whether rodent diarrhoea obtained by letting free-living rodents freely crawl over a vegan hamburger can be considered vegan. What does Gary say about that? --David Olivier (talk) 16:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Veganism is a philosophy, not a diet.

I changed the content of the article to correct the common mistake that veganism is a diet, when it is in fact a philosophy, and that the word "dietary veganism" is nonsensical use of vocabulary, and that "strict vegetarianism" fills that role quite fittingly.

From the wiki on Donald Watson, "founder of the Vegan Society and inventor of the word vegan." :

"From his early conversion to vegetarianism, he later came to view the abstention from the use of all animal products as the logical extension of this philosophy. A committed pacifist throughout his life, he registered as a conscientious objector in the war, and faced the harshest challenges to his ethical position[5]. It was at this time that the need for a word to describe his way of life, and a society to promote its ideals, became apparent; together with his wife, Dorothy, they decided on the word ‘vegan’ by taking the first three and last two letters of "vegetarian," - "because veganism starts with vegetarianism and carries it through to its logical conclusion," and the Society was founded in 1944[2]."

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_Society >

"The Vegan Society defines veganism as "...a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose."

In other words the term was precisely coined to distinguish between a vegetarian diet to a philosophy including a strict vegetarian diet, with an implicit ethical stance, seeking to exclude the use of all animal products.

Interstates (talk) 23:28, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The sources supplied in the first reference used in the article make it quite clear that "dietary veganism" is a commonly used concept and definition with multiple sources that attest to this. What the word meant when it was originally coined is interesting and worthy of note but what is more important for us is how it's used today. Wikipedia is not here to promote any belief over any other, we're here to report on what reliable sources state and in this case the reliable sources confirm the use of dietary veganism. SQGibbon (talk) 00:25, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there are sufficient sources for the usage of "dietary veganism" to warrant the mention of dietary veganism in the lede. I think it's fine to mention it in the article, and to list a few examples of celebrities who have followed a vegan diet, but the vast majority of people who consider themselves vegans would follow a definition closer to that given by the Vegan Society. The term is currently given undue weigth in my opinion. TheLastNinja (talk) 13:08, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I recently learned that there are people that include vegans in an eating disorder called orthorexia nervosa (those obsessed with eating healthy food). Since veganism is a philosophy - not a diet - I am hopeful that this term never ends up on Wikipedia’s veganism page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by GlassLadyBug (talk • contribs) 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The term "vegan" was coined in England by Donald Watson, who founded the British Vegan Society in 1944, motivation was ethical to sentient animals:

"We can see quite plainly that our present civilisation is built on the exploitation of animals, just as past civilisations were built on the exploitation of slaves, and we believe the spiritual destiny of man is such that in time he will view with abhorrence the idea that men once fed on the products of animals' bodies". ( http://ukveggie.com/vegan_news/ )

— Donald Watson, Vegan News, nº1, November 1944.

Xxxzenicxxx (talk) 02:56, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I've never heard of "ethical veganism"

Hello. This article's introduction, splitting veganism into "ethical" and "dietary" veganism is bunkum. I'm a vegan, and lead a vegan group, but have never heard it being split out in this way. All vegans I know (and I know many) avoid the use of animal products in any way, shape or form, whether that's food, clothing, or anything else. I wouldn't expect anything else.

I suggest you take the definition from the Vegan Society in the UK: "Promoting ways of living free from animal products for the benefit of people, animals and the environment." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.174.214 (talk) 12:42, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I kind of agree with you. "Ethical veganism" implies that there is also an "unethical veganism"!! I believe what the article is trying to do is differentiate those vegans whose primary motivation is personal health versus ethics. There are a growing number of dietary vegans (mainly in the US) whose primary motivation is health (eg Steve Wynn) rather than animal welfare. Later on, once they have experienced that they can be as healthy/healthier on a strictly plant-based diet, these vegans will probably become aware how pointless the meat/dairy industries are and embrace the ethical side too. Nirvana2013 (talk) 15:09, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

dietary vegans = strict vegetarians Regards.Xxxzenicxxx (talk) 06:40, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi 78, we don't base Wikipedia articles on our personal knowledge or experiences, or on primary sources from 1944, but on modern secondary sources. The source we use, Encyclopedia of Animal Rights and Animal Welfare, clearly describes ethical veganism. We can't hand over the definition to the one proposed by the Vegan Society, a primary source, 67 years ago. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 02:18, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

"Ethical" veganism only makes sense here so it can be distinguished from so-called dietary veganism. However, the mere mention of a related term (dietary veganism) in a handful of sources is not enough justification for the term to appear in the lead of the article (veganism). To me this seems like a case of undue weight being put on a marginal term / relatively small phenomenon. If dietary veganism is to be mentioned in the lead, why shouldn't we also talk about AR veganism and environmental veganism? And what about about other motivations for veganism? Based on these issues I suggest to remove dietary veganism from the lead. TheLastNinja (talk) 09:52, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Ethical v. dietary veganism is a well-known distinction; I'll post more sources to the article shortly showing their use. For example, Robert Garner and Gary Francione use those terms; they are both academics specializing in this area. Francione calls himself an ethical vegan, and Garner calls himself a dietary vegan. See the first footnote for the citations here.

It's important that we stick to what reliable secondary sources say—academic sources wherever possible—and not judge the issues based on our own personal opinions. Not everyone agrees that vegans must stop using animal products entirely; we have a discussion in the article about the so-called Paris exemption, for example. Finally, it's dietary veganism that is currently proving popular, not ethical veganism, though the former could lead people to the latter.

Nirvana, I'm going to restore the cuisine section to its previous position, so that the diet-related material is together. I'm also going to add dietary and ethical veganism headers, and put the environmental arguments in their own section. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 17:05, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I have revised the sections as vitamins/minerals etc are all part of "Health aspects." Nirvana2013 (talk) 08:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Just a point to note on the ethical versus health motives. Dietary veganism may entail more than just still using animal products in clothing. For example, T. Colin Campbell has followed mostly a vegan diet since the early 1990s and done much work encouraging people onto a plant-based diet. However, he does not identify himself as a vegetarian or vegan as this infers something that he does not espouse, such as anti-vivisection.[1] There are however medical professionals, such as Neal D. Barnard, Michael Greger and Michael Klaper, who do class themselves as vegans and embrace both the health and ethical sides. Nirvana2013 (talk) 08:08, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Though there clearly is a conceptual distinction being made between the concepts of founding veganism on an ethical case against nonhuman animal use, or an ethical case against some forms of nonhuman animal treatments or a case for a vegan diet out of health concerns, it is rather hard (if not impossible) to find a neutral terminology for the subject… Basicly all the secondary sources (And Beckoff's, which by the way does not contain the phrase „ethical veganism“) take a distinct stance within the discourse.

„Ethical veganism“ for instance is clearly abolitionist terminology. Singer or Garner would probably call it „dogmatic veganism“ or „absolutist veganism“ --goiken 05:17, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

The term "ethical veganism" is indeed in the Beckoff article, [2] which was written by Francione; Beckoff is the editor. But sources outside the AR movement use the term too, e.g. [3] It would be good if you could read the sources the article uses, particularly footnote 1. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 13:08, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah, ok… I only searched the 1998 Copy of Bekoff, that does not contain an article on the AA. My bad. --goiken 14:36, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

This discussion reminds me of one over on the vegetarianism article. We have all probably come across people who call themselves vegetarian but eat fish (in fact this makes up the majority of "vegetarians" I know!). The vegetarianism article makes it clear that even though this is common practice, they are not actually vegetarians but pescetarians/semi-vegetarians. The reason the article holds to this view, even though eating fish is common practice amongst "vegetarians", is because of the Vegetarian Society definition.[4]

In the same way it can be argued that veganism should hold to the Donald Watson and/or UK/US Vegan Society definitions. I suppose the question is where do we draw the line and how/if we should represent individuals who only follow a strict plant-based diet but do not avoid all violence/enslavement/testing on animals. Maybe this can be answered by understanding the individual's primary motivation i.e. animal welfare, personal health, the environment, simple living or spiritual gain. However, as I pointed out earlier, secondary motives may become as equally important to the individual over time.

Should we start another article called plant-based diet with dietary veganism redirecting to it? After all this is the term doctors like Colin Campbell use, as they know that veganism is not just a diet but a philosophy. Many of the doctors promoting, and adherents following, a plant-based diet for health reasons do not even call themselves vegan. Another article should stop the dilution of this article and vegan philosophy/idealism. Nirvana2013 (talk) 09:02, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

The problem there is that it would be a POV fork, Nirvana. This article shouldn't uphold vegan idealism, or knock it down, but only try to describe the way modern secondary sources, particularly academic sources, use the term, and how they define and describe the practice. Most of this article is about ethical veganism, so I'm not sure there's much dilution occurring anyway. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 13:08, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

A problem this article has always had is that people have wanted to base it on their personal experience of being a vegan. It leads to a situation, which is seen all over the animal rights movement, of certain groups being excluded: "You're not really a vegan because ... you own a leather sofa." "You're not really an animal rights advocate because ... you want KFC to provide bigger cages." It's this approach that people like Peter Singer speak out against.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any position here. I'm arguing only that this article must rely on the views of modern secondary sources—not Donald Watson, a primary source, writing in 1944 (though of course we include his view), and not the experience of any particular group of Wikipedians, not least because that will keep changing as the editors attending to the page change. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 13:18, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I hear what you say. Nirvana2013 (talk) 14:45, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I think what we're witnessing is the slow success of a revolutionary movement. Veganism is no longer a fringe issue, which means other people have clambered on board (for good and bad reasons) and are changing what it means, making it less pure, perhaps even unrecognizable to its traditional adherents—who may feel a tendency to invoke "no true Scotsman". But these things shift, and may shift back again. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 14:57, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I'd disagree. The mere labelling of exploitive practices with terminology of a revolutionary/abolitionist movement does not constitute a "slow success". Quite the opposite is true in my analysis. --goiken 16:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I also disagree but not for the reasons given by goiken. I believe that the reason veganism (dietary or otherwise) is taking off has little to do with various Vegan Societies, their philosophy or the existing vegan movement, but much to do with numerous doctors (T. Colin Campbell etc) now proving that a plant-based diet will not only prevent cancer, heart disease and a host of other degenerative diseases, but reverse them. For veganism going mainstream listen to this radio show posted on the American Vegan Society website.[5] As Michael Klaper said back in the 1990s, a plant-based diet is an idea whose time has come. This plant-based diet movement will gain even more momentum when the documentary Forks Over Knives by Lee Fulkerson, featuring T. Colin Campbell, Caldwell Esselstyn and Neal D. Barnard, is released in the US next month.[6] Please note, I personally have no problem with individuals calling themselves vegan and only adhering to the diet. I am pleased these individuals find better health and less animals are being slaughtered for food, even if they do not embrace the philosophy fully. It may not be perfect but it is a leap forward. Nirvana2013 (talk) 17:42, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Nirvana, I'm going to restore H.Jay Dinshah to the lead and how he linked veganism to the concept of ahimsa, as that seems quite important and central to the movement, and it's what the source says. [7] SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 13:34, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

This article simply does not reflect reality

Hello. I'm the guy who posted the note above about there being no such thing as "ethical veganism".

There's clearly been a lot of discussion above about this, and the article has been reverted to stating that all vegans split into two camps: ethical and dietary.

This simply does not reflect the reality out here in the real world. I know nobody at all who calls themselves an 'ethical vegan', and I run one of the largest vegan groups in the UK. I'm really sorry if this clashes with your views, and I realise you can provide lots of sources to prove me wrong, but I'm basing my views on reality.

This article is clearly trying to set an agenda. Somebody coming to it to learn about veganism will not learn the truth, but a distorted, constructed version of the truth.

To make this clear:

Veganism: Rejecting all animal products for any purpose (from food to leather seating) Strict vegetarian: Somebody who doesn't eat meat or consume any other animal product, but sees no issue using animal products elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.3.72.70 (talk) 12:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

We hear you, but the problem is that Wikipedia's articles have to be based on sources, and not on our own experiences or even reality itself. Please see WP:V and WP:NOR. Gabbe (talk) 13:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not aware of reliable sources that explicitly reject this distinction. Can you name any? Then, i guess, we could add this view.-goiken 15:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)