Talk:Shudra

Possible vandalism

User:220.236.152.72 (and another similar IP address) made major edits to this article. They should be checked carefully. He/she has just been blocked for exceeeding 3-revert rule after repeatedly making major edits (mostly deletions) to topics in areas related to this, ignoring requests to discuss, creating separate POV versions of articles under slightly different names, etc. Changes just might be accurate, I suggest especially checking any deletions. I won't be watching this page, so if you need to ask me something further, please ask on my talk page. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:41, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

This deals with the issue of caste in India, which attracts a lot of hate-speech, white-washing and contempt for people of 'lower' caste groups. It is essential that the moderators be sensitive to this trend.

Please be confirmed while publishing any article. Saint Pothuluri Veera Brahmendra swamy is a Vishwakarma Vaidika Brahmin. I am not getting intention with which this article was published. Why are you seperating the saints who has renounced this physical world and shown a spiritual moment to disciples,in to shudra, kshatria and all thhese.If you really wish to publish a article on Shudras, please go thorugh abundant literature availble on them, study their pathetic and penury lives thhey are living and show the discimination thhey are facing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sthapathi (talk • contribs) 05:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Misleading Userids

One user called user:VandalPatrol ia behaving as admin on this page though he has no power.Please take note of his suspect action and vandalism.Holywarrior 07:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

User:VandalPatrol who is permanently banned now has been suspected to be operating from these IP adresses.59.94.42.51, 59.94.43.28, 59.94.43.114, 59.94.43.114, 59.94.41.210, 59.94.40.253, 59.94.38.34, 59.94.41.30, 59.94.40.19, 59.94.42.197, 59.94.42.197, 59.94.43.136.Admin may take a look on his edits. HW 10:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

For detailed information plz look here.Holy|Warrior 07:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC) User:NoPOV spotted today with similar edits.Holywarrior 08:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Misinterpreted Facts

I deleted the following from the "avatar" section for the following reasons:

"*Maharshi Veda Vyas, fisherman, composed the Mahabharata, considered an avatara of Vishnu. Maharishi Ved Vyas, who is credited to have compiled/edited all the four Vedas in present format and who is believed to be author of Mahabharata, Shrimad Bhagwat Gita and all the Purans has himself laid down (Mahabharata: 1-V-4): that `whenever there is conflict between what is declared in the Vedas and provisions in any of the Smritis, Puranas, etc., what is declared in the Vedas shall prevail.` Furthermore, Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita (10.37) says, "Of the descendants of Vrishni I am Vasudeva, and of the Pandavas I am Arjuna. Of the sages I am Vyasa, and among great thinkers I am Usana.""

Vyasa Maharshi was the son of a Brahmin rishi Parashara...in no way is he a Shudra. His mom was a Shudra but he takes the line of his father in addition to doing the purificatory rites "samskaras" to become a Brahmin.

Shri Ved Vyas's mother was not Shudra. She was in care of Nishad who was Shudra but he was not her father. She was of Khastriya origin as her father was Khatriya. Ref: Devi Bhagvat Puran. As the material is scattered in various scriptures so for normal readers it is dificult to know lot of stuff.

"*Narad Muni, was son of maidservant who became a Brahmana and was taught by Vaishnava gurus, wrote the Narad Bhakti Sutra. He is mentioned as one of the 25 avatars of Lord Vishnu.[1] Krishna also says in the Bhagavad Gita (10.26)[2], "Of all trees I am the banyan tree, and of the sages among the demigods I am Narada. Of the Gandharvas I am Citraratha, and among perfected beings I am the sage Kapila.""

Narada was the son of Brahma. A person's caste is not determined by what his birth was in the previous birth. It is what his birth is in the present that actually matters. Here he is a Brahmana from birth itself. But yes, he was a Gandharva who got cursed to be a Shudra and THEN got the most enviable birth.

"*Sukhdevji, the son of the great guru and avatar of Sri Vishnu, Veda Vyasa. He stayed inside mother's womb for sixteen years. He was the first one to say Bhagavata Purana to the great Raja Parikshita in last seven remaining days of king's life. Thus the king attained self-realization."

Again, Sri Suka, who belongs to the son of Vyasa Maharshi, gets the line of his father, which makes him a Brahmana from birth itself.

How about adding Matanga Muni here? He was the son of a Brahmin female and a Sudhra male(apparently when she was "intoxicated" she had sex with that guy(!)) and he was born as a Chandala. But I guess he rose to the level of a Brahmin(I don't know is that true? Or did he just become a Maharshi?). Whatever it is I feel Shudras should be proud of their position. It is without them that the others castes cannot survive. I am a Brahmana saying this.193.188.105.20 (talk) 13:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Lowest Caste?

Could someone please add an explanation of the difference between Shudra and Untouchable/Dalit to this article?

BTW, the only sentence currently in the article that mentions them is ungrammatical and indecipherable:

A sub-caste is a local endogenous group practising a lower end Shudras will be untouchable Dalits

- Frankie1969 (talk) 15:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Untouchables are not Sudras. First of all, there are two sections of Sudras. Pure Sudras (from whom Brahmins accept drinking water) and impure Sudras (who pollute Brahmins with their touch). The forward castes are made up of Brahmins, Brahmakshatriyas, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Pure Sudras. The lower castes are made up of impure Sudras (like Sonar, Nai.etc). There is another division called Antyaja (Dalit) which is below impure Sudra, and therefore outside varna. Axxn (talk) 10:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Any sources for what you claim here, or is all this based on your family habits? Tomeasy _{T C} 17:54, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

According to Manusmriti, there are only four castes, nothing beyond it and nothing in between it, and every human being belongs to one of them.Ikon ^No-Blast 18:45, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Agree with ikonoblast manusmiriti claims only four castes,anand is quoting the nambudiri definition which is very weird.and one more thing ancient india had mobility of castes there are many brahmins who have fallen to become shudras and many shudras who have risen to become brahmins.so caste mobiltiy was there but later on castes were hardened and became hereditary.Linguisticgeek (talk) 05:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

So what does this mean to our article? Which of the four casts do Shudras belong to? And which cast do Dalits belong to?

I think, it would help a great deal if whatever your answers are, you could cite some references. To me it seems that everyone dealing with this topic is following their own personal tradition, thinking that this is the one and only truth, whereas in reality there is no truth to it. Anand, e.g., thinks that he as Brahmin would be polluted if he was touched by an impure Shudra individual. My suspicion is that this may be his very strong believe, however, lacking any codified evidence. Good reliable reference, like anywhere else on Wikipedia, are the only measure to resolve this suspicion. Tomeasy _{T C} 11:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Once again I am asking you to refrain from personally attacking me. What I wrote here was taken from historic sources and they don't have anything to do with my beliefs. Go through these pages from Mahabharata to get a better understanding. And here is the definition of impure sudra and pure sudra. Axxn (talk) 05:25, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

You should read this book[3]. You would know how hinduism transformed from three varna system to four varna, and more about origin of shudra. Ikon ^No-Blast 19:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

No, this talk page's purpose is not to educate me but to improve the article. The article is in very bad shape, as it does not cite references. I cannot tell which claims are reasonable and which ones are original research, but perhaps you can. If so, you can improve the article and put appropriate references at the indicated locations. Tomeasy _{T C} 19:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

According to Manu, the son of a Sudra father by a Sudra woman is purer than the son of a Sudra father by a woman of the highest caste (Brahmin). This means that Sudra is not the lowest caste. The Chandala (Son of a lower status father with a higher status mother) are considered to be the lowest ranking people in varna system, below the Sudra. "Manu calls the Chandala one of the lowest outcasts, because he is the son of a Sudra father and a Brahmanic mother." Here, a detailed description of these 29 lowest varnas are given. Actually most of these castes emerged in to become forward castes, like Mahishya (#2) and Khatri (#11). I don't know how accurate it is, as here he gives that Rajputs are Kshatriya + Vaishya and Karana are Vaishya + Sudra. Axxn (talk) 02:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Saints in Hinduism

Can someone explain what this section has to do with the rest of the page? It appears to be a completely unrelated (and unreferenced) list of names. Is the implication that all these saints are of the Shudra varna? If so, that needs to be clarified (an verified with references). If not, then the section is pointless, and should be removed. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 16:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

As there was no response opposing the proposed deletion, I have gone ahead and deleted the section on saints. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:55, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

"Undefined" varna status

Someone has edited that Kayasths and Khatris are having "undefined" varna status. But their status is not undefined. In West Bengal Kayasth are generally considered Shudra, but in some parts of UP, they claim Kshatriya or Brahmin status. Likewise, Khatris are considered to be Shudra by Gaur Brahmins and Rajputs, but they claim Kshatriya status. Saraswat Brahmins even accept food from them, which means that they are not Sudra. Both the communities were very powerful during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, so they could easily manipulate the census records to their own use. I am not sure about the sources, as I took this from here. However having heard about the rivalry these two castes are having with Rajputs, I don't think Rajput sponsored research links will provide NPOV. Axxn (talk) 15:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Sudra should be part of an inner cleansing process, not some silly nazi system misinterpreted by controlling fools

It is ANNOYING to see that human beings have consistently misinterpreted sacred information. OF COURSE there was NOT supposed to be a caste system, these are different parts of a process all human beings should undergo. The Sudra is the last of them! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.225.70.121 (talk) 11:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)