Talk:Spike Milligan

Other children

Illegitamate children are not mentioned. Colinvincent 23:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Occasionally people have added one, and others deleted the entry. I don't know what the standard is for biographic entries, but I certainly see no reason they can't be included if they are acknowledged or proven to be off-spring. --AGoon.

Father's birthplace

I'm not sure that it's right to say that Spike's father was Irish-born. I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that Spike's citizenship problems arose because both he and his father were born in India to military families. If Spike's father had been born in the UK (including Ireland at the time) then there would have been no question of Spike's being entitled to a British passport. Presumably he got the Irish citizenship through having an Irish-born grandparent. -- Arwel 19:01 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)

You may well be right, Arwel. I added that line in an attempt to clarify whether he was Irish or English, but I was working from web material of varying reliablilty, and I may have read between the lines a bit. Sources were extremely variable as to Milligan père's rank. too. --rbrwr

Spike's father Leo, according to Humphrey Carpenter's 2003 biography, was born in Sligo, Ireland in 1890.

A father born in what's now the Republic of Ireland was not sufficient to qualify for citizenship of the UK & Colonies when this was introduced in 1949. And at the time, British mothers could not pass on their citizenship. Spike could have applied for registration as a UK citizen on the basis of UK residence but reportedly refused to do so. Due to his father's birthplace he was an Irish citizen automatically. JAJ 04:24, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Spike was interviewed on the TV some years ago and, as far as I can remember, the story about his citizenship is this: Spike was born in British India and for most of his life thought of himself as British, however, when he came to renew his passport sometime in the 1960's (I think) he was told that he no-longer automatically qualified for British Citizenship and that if he wanted to remain one he would need to go through some rigmarole-or-other in order to do so. Spike, having fought in the British Army during WW II and been wounded in action, in effect, said 'stuff this' to this apparent slur and shortly afterwards met a someone he knew at the Irish Embassy, and, telling him of this, the friend said something like: 'Don't worry about that, we'll let you have one of ours' (passport) - as his fathers Irish place-of-birth automatically qualified Spike to Irish citizenship - and so Spike agreed. Ian Dunster 13:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I knew Spike in the late nineties - the story that he told me was that when he wanted to renew his passport he came up against a bureaucratic wall of indifference and pomposity - which he felt aggrieved by as he had fought in the war for the UK. The process seemed like it would take months or years. He phoned the Irish Embassy - where he spoke to an official who was obviously delighted to hear from the great man. Spike recounted that the guy said something like ( and Spike told this in an hilarious Irish accent) "Ah! Mr Milligan - so it's an Irish passport your after? - don't worry at all - we're getting terribly short of people over here! - we'll send you one tommorrow.." - which they did, much to Spike's delight. I think Spike's celebration of his 'Irishness' was a way of sticking two fingers up to British pomposity and offiacldom as anything else - and something that was a constant theme of his work since the war.

There was never a question of him "remaining" a British citizen (or UK & Colonies citizen as it was called at the time). Because of his circumstances he never acquired UK & Colonies citizenship in 1949, it was his choice not to complete the (simple) registration form to obtain it. JAJ 00:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Birth name

An anonymous editor has just changed the spelling of Spikes' birth name to Terrance Allan. Practically all online sources give it as Terence Alan (Patrick Sean) e.g. IMDB. I've asked the editor where he got the different spelling, but if there's no satisfactory reply within a few days I'll change it back. Arwel 22:04, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Terence Alan" is the version almost everywhere, including usually authoritative obit sites. See http://www.google.com/search?q=%2BAlan+spike+milligan -- Karada 23:42, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Grovelling bastard

The sentance: "The Prince of Wales was a noted fan, and Milligan caused a stir by calling him a 'little grovelling bastard' on television in 1994." Is there any reference for the "caused a stir" part? It seems to imply that there may have been a public outcry against Spike. I remember the (very funny!) incident but don't remember any negative retaliation? Zik-Zak 23:14, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I am sure there was negative reaction - many not realising that Charles loved it. -- Beardo 04:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately I can't provide any evidence, but I do recall some of the tabloids at the time lambasting him with pseudo-serious outrage.Contains Mild Peril (talk) 23:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

From what I recall of the media coverage available to me at the time, by all accounts it was well received. There is film/video footage of this moment, and the camera pans to the audience, who are in stitches. There may have been mock outrage in some media - I don't know. But as I understand it, by this time in history, Prince Charles' love of the Goons was well and truly common knowledge, along with fanship of other members of the Royal Family such as Prince Phillip, Princess Anne and Princess Margaret, with years of written, audio, photographic and film testimony to this fact. Indeed, it is precisely because of this common knowledge that Milligan was among the few people who could 'get away' with such a tongue-in-cheek public retort. Some people and media may have wondered or speculated as to how well the retort was received by the Royal Family. And such media speculation may have been misinterpreted by those who knew not of the Royal Family's love of the Goons. But there was never any real doubt that it would have been well received by the Royal fans, as it was not said in a vindictive vein, but as a purely Milliginesque retort. Indeed, all of his fans (including the Royal ones) would have been delighted that he was still up to the task of such a quick retort.Wotnow (talk) 04:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)Wotnow

There was quite a furore in the press at the time, which, from what I remember, centred around Spike using the word 'bastard' to or about Prince Charles. It was also reported that Charles had afterwards said something along the lines of "Really, Spike, sometimes you go too far." The fuss lasted a couple of days until it was said that Charles had forgiven Spike. If anyone has the time or inclination to access press archives, it should be easily found. However, who knows whether it was true or just tabloid invention?

Zebideedoodah (talk) 21:38, 15 August 2011 (UTC)Zebideedoodah

Is this an advert?

The last paragraph of the main entry on Spike sounds like it was written by the production company in question ("...Goon but not Forgotten will be an intimate and deeply personal portrait of Spike Milligan...") and, since it uncritically reviews an event in the future ("...It will tell Spike’s story through the eyes of [various relatives and friends]"), it doesn't seem appropriate for wikipedia. The entry would end better with Spike's last words anyway.

Zac (www.ortholog.com)

Headstone

There is a picture online of Spike's wonderful (!) headstone. I can't find it but it says on it 'Duirt mé leat go raibh mé breoite" (I told you I was ill). I wonder what made him keep his Irish link throughout his life (I think he was buried with the tricolour draped over his coffin as well) Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis (May God rest his soul).

I've found a photo [1] but it's not all that legible
Londoneye 19:45, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The epitaph was in galic so as not to offend other mourners (I don't know why, I'd love summat funny to read when I'm mourning). As for Spike's Irish "link" he is technically what is known as "more Irish than the Irish". His Dad was Irish, yeah, but he didn't even set foot there until he was 28 or older(I forget) and I don't think he went back too often. He was just one of those people who desperately wanted to embrace an Irishness that wasn't really theirs.--Crestville 15:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Hyperlinks

Was it really necessary to hyper link every third word (at a guess) in this article? Completely illegible. Thanks for the links to theatre, film and comedy, obviously they were the first things I needed to look up. Greglocock 02:22, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Difficult to have it both ways - you found some links useful; other people might find others useful. I had a go at removing a few, and could only find two that I was sure should go (one being the second link to knighthood in the same line). Why not have a go yourself? (br>Londoneye 10:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I've removed most of the dups (60 odd). Wp manual of style recommends generally only linking the first occurrence. Rest in Pieces little links. Barefootguru 23:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed a handful of duplicate links. Getting there. Wotnow (talk) 07:30, 3 September 2009 (UTC)Wotnow

Birthplace

The article used to have Lucknow.

The Guardian obituary linked to says Poona.

But his books say Ahmednagar. As that's where he said it was and that's where the relevant British Army base was, that's where I've changed it to. (It also happens to be where my father was born - his father was at the same base as Spike's.) Lovingboth 19:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Originally it said Ahmednagar, but the whole first paragraph under the "Biography" heading was removed by a vandal [2] and wasn't reverted. When the paragraph started to grow back, the wrong information got in. In fact I've just noticed that part of that spate of vandalism [3] still isn't fully fixed ...

...OK, I think it is now. --rbrwr^± 21:18, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Influence of the Marx Brothers

This should be acknowleged somehow. My 10 pence worth :) --The unselfish gene 03:28, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Did Milligan ever publicly acknowledge them? JackofOz 06:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I read a series called "classic stories according to Spike Milligan" - Black beauty, Robin Hood and that - And I think every one of them involves Groucho Marx popping up at one stage or another and joining the merry men and that.--Crestville 14:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

In the Marx Brothers biography "Monkey Business", on page 414 Spike admits that the bulk of his humor was derived and influenced on the Marx Brothers. IrishGuy 08:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I am positive that in his war memoirs, Spike is asked who he thinks is funny by one soldier. He lists "W.C. Fields, Marx Brothers..." Paul-b4 15:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

This is page 54 of Mussolini: His Part in My Downfall. The 25 year old Milligan says he doesn't think Gracie Fields is funny, but W.C. Fields and the Marx Brothers are. (The above Monkey Business quote appears to in turn be a quote from the Preface to Harpo Speaks?)Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 04:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

} I no longer have the above war memoir (which I read from cover to cover of course) and I've not read the "Monkey Business" biography. But there is a video clip of Milligan in an interview where he specifically credits Groucho Marx's influence. He describes a scene where Marx is at some woman's place when her husband comes home. She says "Quick, duck behind the couch", at which Groucho hides behind the couch. When the husband enters the room, Groucho stands up and says "there's no duck behind this couch". Milligan states that it was the funniest line he'd heard and had a profound influence on him. I can visualise Milligan saying this, but I don't have time to search. I can tell you I would have found it during my searches on Youtube, and that it was one of his later interviews as an old man. If you search, and if you watch the interviews in his later life, you will find it. I did, and I was just generally exploring. Wotnow (talk) 22:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I've added Adolf Hitler as an influence on Spike Milligan, because without him, there would be no Second World War, and without it's influence on Gunner Milligan, I doubt The Goons would have been created (Phillip Rhodes). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phillip Rhodes (talk • contribs) 21:13, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Translating this article

Good morning, I'm a French enthusiast of Spike Milligan, wether he was quite unknown here untill the french edition of "Adolf Hitler: My Part in his Downfall" in 1998 that permitted me to discover his wonderfull sense of humor, indeed, but mostly his love of human kind; so I would like to know if it is possible to "borrow" your article (or some of your references) so as to use them in a french tongue Wikipedia article, or giving it a full translation. I, can, if you like, translate from french to english ANY article (except scientific article) to please you, english wikipedians. ;) Send me an answer me at fb75003@hotmail.fr By the way, what about creating correspondants in every countries, every languages to "exchange" (? I have a doubt on that word!) our knowledges? Hope i'll heard of you soon, sincerly yours, Fabian BERNARD.

I don't think you need to ask for permission. That's the beauty of Wikipedia! Go right ahead... --Byron Farrow 12:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Spike and environmental causes

I was fortunate to know Spike in his later life. I worked for BTCV (British Trust for Conservation Volunteers) of which Spike was an active supporter. When he was younger Spike actively participated in conservation working holidays. He told me that one of these involved 'restoring a Roman road somewhere up North - the buggers didn't build it right' -and despite the fact that this involved camping and working in the pouring rain he said 'it was the best fun I've had since the war - the shared adversity brings people together - you get closer to people - one of them got so close to me she got into my sleeping bag'.

Spike was a supporter right up to his death - and I remember him as a very public environmentalist and supporter of groups like Friends of the Earth, The World Wildlife Fund, Greenpeace and Population Concern in the sixties and seventies.

I think this should be mentioned in Wikipedia - but think that this would be better informed by contributions from groups like FOE who probably owe a lot to the man. Dean Morrison 11:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

What makes him British?

considering he couldn't get a british passport as the articial says and he him self said he wasnt British he's Irish many times. I think the following categorys should be removed

• British actors * British comedy writers * British radio writers |

(Gnevin 21:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC))

OTOH he did fight for Britain in WW2, and I think he lived in Britain most of his life. I'd say he was both British and Irish, in a way that was more possible then than now, perhaps. --Guinnog 21:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Many Irish served in ww2 and well as ww1 i wouldnt say that makes him british . I'm not convinced about this British and Irish thing . Without trying to sound too board sweeping many Irish people are claimed to be British when their is no link at all . (Gnevin 21:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC))

Have you tried NALA? Worth surfing. Millbanks (talk) 22:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I don't think Milligan was one of them. Plenty of links. --Guinnog 21:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Shouldnt we go on what he said himself ? (Gnevin 22:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC))

What was that? --Guinnog 22:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not british i'm irish (Gnevin 22:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC))

Can you source that? --Guinnog 22:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[4] and [5] . This quote was also seen in The Comedian's Comedian (Gnevin 22:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC))

he went to Ireland twice in his life - he was 28 before he set foot there. Only his Father was Irish, and he didn't have an Irish passport. He NEVER lived in Ireland. He was one of those "more Irish than the Irish" sorts who knew fuck all about Ireland. What makes him Irish?--Crestville 00:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Though he lived most of his life in England and served in the British Army, he was refused a British passport in 1960, having been born outside Britain to an Irish father, Leo Milligan, who was born and raised in the working class area of Holborn Street, Sligo in Ireland. Milligan took Irish citizenship instead and never forgave the British Government. Atleast read the articial that and he said so himself ? (Gnevin 11:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC))

he went to Ireland twice in his life Can you source that ? (Gnevin 12:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC))

(I'm not British, English, Irish or even American so hopefully you'll take this as a nuetral comment) Although born in India, his up bringing is British, his humour developed in a British context (army), he played before a British audience on British radio and TV, he lived in Britian ... his humour ridiculed many aspects of British society and government.
Perhaps look to Albert Einstein born German, gained Swiss citizenship, gained Prussian citizenship, gained American citizenship. He's in categories of German physicist, Swiss physicist, and Jewish-American scientists. The categories aren't some kind of exclusive claim upon a persons body and sole, it seems quite reasonable to classify Spike as a British Comedian just as you could have classified him as a British Soldier. Yes he fits into the Irish categories as well. And I suppose if the Indians want to claim him too .... :-). If only he'd applied for a passport before the war ... maybe he would have avoided conscription and ... ohh, the loss to humanity! :-) --AGoon 08:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with Crestville regarding his claims to be Irish. Also, regarding the text of this Wikipedia article and its tone, I wonder if it was written by an Australian. In my experience, Australians tend to be a bit more uncritical of Milligan and forgiving of his unpleasant characteristics, there's a more objective view of him in Britain and in Ireland.Dolmance 17:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

By all means add a paragraph about his Irishness or otherwise and his unpleasant side (with references ;-). As for the second comment, I think it is a gross generalisation - there are both critical and sympathetic biographies about him from Britian and it would seem the sympathetic ones outweigh the critical ones. (PS I'm not Australian, nor did I write the article :-) --AGoon 19:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If you really need proof of his unpleasantness, look here: http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/biography/0,,1015466,00.html And, I'm afraid, Australians are nice people but they're the only race on the face of the planet who still repeat the Goon Show. In Britain, it's a regularly expressed view that nobody under sixty finds it funny.Dolmance 17:15, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Proof? Where ? :-) That's the opinion of one reviewer who states from the outset that he dislikes the Goons and Milligan. There must be few fifty year old radio shows that are still regularly aired anywhere, the Goons have had remarkable longevity and there is a streaming internet radio program that plays them continuously. They are still regularly played on the BBC internet site. I'm sure that in Britian there are people that regulary express the view that going into Iraq was a good idea ... that fact doesn't actually mean much ;-). So by all means add to the article, but try to find researched sources (eg interviews of people who had immediate contact with him) rather than on lookers from afar. --AGoon 09:36, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

So what nationality was his mother? 62.31.69.202 00:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• What does his mother's nationality matter? Don't you know that on O'Wikipedia "Irish" trumps everything?! ;o) 86.17.211.191 23:07, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The following quote 'refused a British passport in 1960....because he refused to take the oath of allegiance, despite advice from Prince Charles' seems to imply that a 12 year old Prince Charles advised him to take the oath of allegiance to gain a passport. Whoever originally wrote that line should correct it, source it, or delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.51.84.113 (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Debrett's "People of Sussex" (1991) says that Mr Milligan was the son of Capt L A Milligan "and Florence Winifred, née Kettleband; 4 generations RA including Indian Mutiny". I'm not sure how Spike Milligan became a Person of Sussex. His address is given as 9, Orme Square, London W2 (plus London telephone number), though he's buried at Winchelsea so presumably lived there or nearby. Millbanks (talk) 22:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Come on people, you should all know by now that the answer to every question on Wikipedia is either "Apple" or "Irish". Don't fight it because you will not win. Daniel Day Lewis? Irish and British. The Edge? Irish (I quote from an edit war: "Birthplace and bloodline is irrelevant, he's lived there ages"). Spike Milligan? Irish. Mohammed Ali? Irish-American. One Irish antecedant 300 years ago among a hundred others? Irish. Born in Ireland and left, never to return? Irish. Born in Britain, but lived in Ireland a while? Irish. Born in Britain and never set foot in Ireland but have an Irish-sounding name and reddish hair? Irish. Eddie Murphy? Irish-American (I quote from an edit war: "But Murphy is an Irish name!") Etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseum. 86.17.211.191 (talk) 18:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC) 1964fagan (talk) 15:54, 21 October 2010 (UTC)Daithí1964fagan (talk) 15:54, 21 October 2010 (UTC) I used to know the Edge from school, and for a while in the eighties. Didn't know he was born in the UK. Nothing about him seemed english back then, and I can't imagine there is really any argument about his Irishness. As for Spike, well he seemed to want to be Irish, and not to be British, so maybe we could respect that. I am not sure that many of us on this side of the Irish sea really see him as Irish, but sure it's no harm to respect his wishes.

But he was also a British comedian. Loved by man British fans. As one above say's, they are not exclusive labels.(Halbared (talk) 08:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

Too the unsigned user 2 posts above me - that is exactly why there must be a form of wikipedia-crusade against this rubbish. Spike Milligan is British. So is Daniel Day Lewis. Eddie Murphy - American. Muhammed Ali - American. We cannot let these nationalistic fools win. I will edit these articles to my dying day if I must. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.92.38 (talk) 17:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Ho ho those silly Irish eh Well I have read the exact same arguments about Irish people James Joyce born in Ireland, raised in Ireland, his major novels concerned with Ireland obviously he can only be described as British as (1) Ireland wasn't a country(2)his passport said he was British and eh sure didn't he live in France, Bram Stoker oh his name wasn't Irish and he was a Protestant and sure Ireland wasn't a country!! So I hope your little crusade extends to British nationalists and not just Irish.86.47.12.178 (talk) 07:33, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Superfluous linking

Sorry, but I'm on a little bit of a crusade against wiki-links that just seem to be there because there is also an entry in wikipedia to link to eg [[piano]] [[noise]] [[troops]] [[play]] [[radio]] [[author]][[drama]][[children]] [[poem]] [[song]][[fax]]. I assume readers have a reasonable grasp of the english language but may not understand particular British references, and so may appreciate a link to more info occasionally. Also more wiki-links to things that expand upon the facts being stated.
(Again, sorry for the rave ;-) --AGoon 07:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

References

No references? Is this wikipedia? I've started by marking a few bits that (although well known to Milliganites) need to be sourced. --AGoon 07:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Badjelly the Witch

Hello, I've just come on Wikipedia to search for some info on Badjelly The Witch, either the book or a play adaptation, but I can't find any mention of it, not even here under Spike's own entry. Surely this is one of his most famous children's books, and should at least be listed. A separate entry would I think be easily justified too. (I suppose I could do it myself, although perhaps someone else knows more about it than I do.) Genedecanter 23:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes a great oversight, there are now four wikipedia pages linking to Badjelly the Witch so please create a page for it (just start by clicking on the link). I'm sure if you start the page others will add what they know :-). There is a copy of the book at http://william.torkington.com/badjelly/. --AGoon 23:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. I omitted the link to the book online, tho, since it's likely to be a copyright violation. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 06:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Trivia element removed

I removed the section that stated "According to the first volume of his war memoirs, Milligan was almost press ganged into the Royal Air Force Regiment... Had he stayed, the history of British comedy might have been very different." I have read his memoirs several times as well as several biographies, and none of them have any mention of this story. Whats more, Milligan was in the Royal Artillery, not the Air Force. He attempted to join as a pilot at one point, but his eyesight was not good enough, and he did not want to join as a rear gunner. 69.156.36.140 17:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the veracity of the story, but note that the quote says "almost press-ganged into the RAF Regiment" which could either be read as that he joined the RAF Regt voluntarily, or, consistent with his known history, wasn't in the RAF Regiment at all. -- Arwel (talk) 17:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, the wikipedia standard that encyclopedic content must be attributable to a reliable source, which this story isn't. This story does not appear in any of his volumes of war memoirs, and nothing similar is ever mentioned in any other biography. He was drafted into the Royal Artillery, and not the RAF. What it more likely is that the author of this story may have mistaken Milligan for Peter Sellers, fellow Goon, and RAF Airman. 64.231.197.197 15:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, all, but I have to agree with 69.156.36.140 on this one. In the book "Adolf Hitler: My Part in his Downfall" it clearly states that Milligan attempted to join the RAF, but his poor eyesight ("night blindness") meant that he was only offered the position of rear gunner.Paul-b4 14:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and that is not what press ganging is. 69.156.37.116 11:59, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Given that most RAF rear-gunners in WWII served aboard night-bombers, I suspect this may have been a joke. Drutt 01:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Spike was great but...

...there's no mention here of his (alleged)racism. Actually no, it was more than alleged. Sketches like the Pakistani Dalek (it ends with someone saying "now you know what's wrong with the country!") show this unpleasant aspect of his work. Sad but true I'm afraid. Totnesmartin 20:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget his TV show Curry and Chips--Crestville 20:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I had, until now! Anyway, perhaps a little something in the controversy section? Totnesmartin 20:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It's true that Spike expressed racist views but I never felt they were particularly heartfelt or unusual for someone of his age. His humanitarian side outweighed them in any case in my opinion. In the context of British comedy the sorts of characters he played were unremarkable, and could hardly said to form the core of his humour. Viewed from a current day perspective that kind of racism quite rightly seems shocking, but I think this says more about the major changes that have happened over the the last twenty years, than anything about Spike. Dean Morrison 11:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you're right. But still, this needs to be in the article - his views and their context. Totnesmartin 14:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

just went to the Alf Garnett article to see if that would help - but not much about the historical context of racism there either. Ho hum. Totnesmartin 14:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

suppose it's fair enough to have something in this article, as long as it's proportionate, and gives historical context - was there any comedian that didn't use racial and gender stereotypes in the sixties and early seventies?? Dean Morrison 12:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Just a thought... Wasn't Curry and Chips actually written by Johnny Speight? Some view Speight's work as racist, although many point out that it actually mocks bigotry rather than minorities. TV "Racism" was more pronounced in the 60's and 70's (see the Black and White Minstrel Show, Love Thy Neighbour, etc); I think that Spike's attitude to race at that time should be viewed in this context. Also, as I recall, the "Pakistani Dalek" was actually married to a white woman... Paul-b4 08:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Johnny Speight was quite the opposite of a racist, he was mocking the racist characters he created, that was the point of his work. 86.142.44.232 (talk) 12:15, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Racism wasn't much in his character, I think you'd have to provide several very obvious documented examples to make a case. (And if you did, what would that mean? That it's politically incorrect to laugh at joke -- one that isn't racist -- that is made by a racist? If one didn't tolerate humor from anybody with personal faults...there wouldn't be very much humor.) In his memoirs he quotes sources using the word "wog", but that was not uncommon in the 1940s. Most of his memoir treatment of Arabs, Jews, Catholics, blacks, Indians, native American Indians, Yanks, and Scots is pretty mild, overwhelmingly friendly, in fact, and what ribbing there is amounts to little colonial give-and-take humor. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 04:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's Spike talking about his views on race http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGnajgAV7D8

I think some poeple are mixing up racism and racially aware here. Spike was an anti-fascist liberal. Mentioning race isn't racism. (1) The Pakistani Dalek, although not acceptable in the modern day, didn't mock Pakistanis. The character's ethnicity and different habits was the humour point of the joke. (2) "Curry And Chips" was an attack on racist attitudes by Johnny Speight. Read up on Speight, he did a lot of great work. Racial stereotypes were provided by him for the main characters to react to, but the foreighn characters always 'win'. (3) The reason he often played Indian or Pakistani characters was because he was bloody good at it, having been born in Poona, India. 86.142.44.232 (talk) 12:15, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Monty Python influence

I've noticed that whether Spike influenced Monty Python is a disputed point, and I'd like to point out that Spike is listed in the Monty Python article as an influence starting here in April. Lisatwo 03:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Also confirmed by several Pythons in Roger Wilmut's book "From Fringe To Flying Circus." 86.142.44.232 (talk) 12:17, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Spike's Irishness

I've just added info about Spike's funeral, and the Daily Telegraph source has a superb photo of his tricolour draped coffin. I also added the wording of a letter he wrote to the Irish Times in 1998 stating that he was Irish and in favour of Irish reunification. 86.42.119.173 (talk) 07:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone seems to have deleted your quote from the Irish Times letter (I've had one or two Irish Times quotes deleted too; I'm not sure why). Anyhow, it seems that in spite of a Roman Catholic education, Mr Milligan had an Anglican burial. Did he convert to the Church of Ireland? Millbanks (talk) 17:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Spike was not British

I have removed many incorrect categories. Spike received an honorary Knighthood, which he could not do if he was British. He was Irish, not British see his obituary. O Fenian (talk) 20:07, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

He was both British and Irish, as the consensus arrived at above makes clear. If you have significant new information, please bring it up here, but the onus is on you to demonstrate that consensus has changed. --John (talk) 20:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

He did not hold British citizenship, see above. Also the consensus version was without British categories until December when the incorrect categories were added. O Fenian (talk) 20:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear. If it is important enough for you to edit-war over I won't be joining you. --John (talk) 20:36, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you not think it important that an encyclopedia deals in facts? Every one of the categories I checked was a child of "x by nationality", when Spike did not have British citizenship, that is a verifiable fact. That some editors can decide to arbitrarily overrule that fact and say "well yes old boy, he was British after all" when he was not boggles the mind. I can understand the logic in describing someone with possible or probably dual Irish/British nationality as both to keep everyone happy, but when it is quite significant that Spike was denied British citizenship how can he be described as British? O Fenian (talk) 20:41, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, "old boy", I see you have been previously blocked for 3rr, have an inflammatory user name, and have been previously warned regarding this matter, yet still choose to edit-war over a matter related to Irish nationalism. If you are interested in the actual issues of Milligan's (not "Spike"; we are not his pals and don't use his first name) complex nationality, you could read the section I referred to above where it was discussed in detail. If you prefer to be combative, rude and to continue to edit-war, as I said, I am not interested. I am an admin and have worked on this article in the past so I will not personally block you. Someone else may though. --John (talk) 20:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I see you cannot actually rebut any of my points, ho hum. O Fenian (talk) 20:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Seems to me having read the above that Milligan considered himself British until 1960, after which he took Irish citizenship. Significantly but entirely coincidentally, 1960 was exactly half way through his life.JohnB57 (talk) 17:59, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

To O Fenian - actually, he WAS British. The article has been reverted to its correct state because of this fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.92.38 (talk) 17:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Milligan refused to take the oath of allegiance to the Queen to renew his British passport, therefore giving up his right to British citizenship. He then applied for and received his Irish citizenship. He voluntarily did this, where is the argument? The man was Irish. I won't start any revert war but unless someone can prove otherwise I shall remove British nationality from the infobox. Jack forbes (talk) 18:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Ha! Ha!

It is one of the most stupidly ridiculously badly-organised biographies on wikipedia. Someone put the sections in a bag and pulled them out at random! Spike would have loved it!

Decide somebody.... does death go under the heading of "Biography" or "Personal life"? Does triva go under Biography or Personal Life. Does the communcation with Robert Greaves go under "Australia" or somewhere else. If you are still looking for it, it is down in the coal cellar. Amandajm (talk) 06:48, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Anglo-Irish?

Whatever Spike's nationality was, it is very wrong to describe him as Anglo-Irish. The Anglo-Irish were an ascendancy class in Ireland of British and Protestant origin. Spike was an Indian-born Irish - by his own definition - writer who was one of the most acclaimed writers in twentieth-century British comedy. British-Irish would be far more accurate than Anglo-Irish. 78.16.25.200 (talk) 23:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

This is nonsense. See Anglo-Irish, especially paragraph 3. Anglo-Irish is an internationally recognised shorthand for someone who can claim ethnic descent from both England and Ireland. I am Anglo-Irish, so was Spike Milligan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wessexboy (talk • contribs) 21:30, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I am under the impression, as is 78 above by the look of it, that Anglo-Irish is a name given to a specific group of English protestant aristocrasy that went to Ireland at a specific time (haven't got the specifics to hand). I would agree that, on face value, it is a label just appear to mean a bit English and a bit Irish, but be careful, others may see the same connotations as 78 and me. 86.142.44.232 (talk) 13:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Milligan's musical talents

I have added this page to facilitate background discussion regarding Spike Milligan's musical background. The reason is that in the introductory paragraph, there is reference to him as a musician, including playing the trumpet, guitar, piano, saxophone, and bass drums.

Milligans trumpet-playing is well known and documented (Pauline Scudamore's 1985 biography for example is littered with references to his trumpet-playing days), including some some visual and audio documentation. He also composed some musical pieces in relation to his various works, and this too is documented. And there is some audio documentation of him singing.

Less well known is his background with other musical instruments. I perused Scudamore's biography, and found reference to singing, guitar, drums, double bass, and of course trumpet, along with painting - which I'd been unaware of prior to this exercise. I cited and referenced this in the article. I have deleted from the article reference to saxophone and piano, as to date I've found no reference to him playing either.

This discussion page was created in case someone else is aware of, or becomes aware of, some tangible reference to these or other instruments, in which case they could be re-inserted along with the relevant reference.

To date I note no reference anywhere to saxophone. The only reference I've found to piano indicates that he was discouraged from this at an early age by what he perceived as parental indifference. Scudamore (1985, p.27) says:

"When he was eight or nine years old one of his teachers did suggest that he might at least be taught the rudiments of music as he was obviously musically gifted, and his mother and father asked him if he would like to learn to play the piano. But it seems that the idea was not presented with any enthusiasm or confidence, and Terence was diffident

'I'm not quite sure why. I think they made it sound like something I couldn't do. It all sounded very unexciting so I said no. They never asked me again...'

Scudamore goes on to say: "At this stage he had his sights fixed on what seemed to him to be less daunting instruments - the banjo, the ukelele or the trumpet. The piano, perhaps, belonged to the grown-ups. Flo, Eileen and Leo received all the acclaim and praise. Wistful and uncertain, he had felt it was not for him".

During his band days with Harry Edgington, Edgington was the pianist - and by all accounts was enthusiastic enough to take some risks to play it. Of the Goons, Peter Sellers is known to have played the timpani, and it was this background that led to his tongue-in-cheek performance at the beginning of The Last Goon Show of All.Wotnow (talk) 05:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)Wotnow.

Here we have a professional musician who played professionally, but also in pick-up groups, and who wandered around England, North Africa and Italy for years. Some musicians are hesitant to pick up instruments they don't specialize in, but Milligan was not one. So the questions would be those such as: How much did he play an instrument? Did he play the instrument professionally? Did he ever record with the instrument? And the most difficult: how good was he on the instrument? I'm a great Milligan fan, but I'm not sure he was a particularly detached self-critic, and we should make good use of independent criticism in this respect. Regards, Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 09:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

While this isn't the citation needed to say Spike played Piano, I do know he said this: "I wasn't a drinker, I used to play the piano while they all drank, I remember that quite clearly.". Its from "At last, the Go On show", about 3:10 minutes:seconds in. I'm not sure what year The Go On show was produced in though. kgoetz (talk) 13:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

In Maxine Ventham's (2002) book (see bibliography), there is a photograph on p.11 of Milligan at the piano. This is in the recollections of Peggy Edgington, Harry Edgington's wife. I have yet to find a citable reference to him playing piano (although I'm still working through the book), but it appears from what I've read so far that he used the piano during music composition. Regarding the trumpet, there is of course lots of written and photographic evidence, and we know from many written sources that he played this professionally in the earlier part of his career. Of audio recordings, you can hear him playing on the LP/Cassetted "Unspun Socks From a Chicken's Laundry" (this was also published as a book, but the audio is magic, although unfortunately obscure and extremely difficult to find - I loaned my LP and cassette, and have never seen them again, nor been able to replace them). Of video evidence, he plays trumpet in one of his one-man shows which was filmed in Australia. I suspect there is also other video evidence out there. The main trouble with finding that stuff is that it wasn't the main focus of his act, so one is likely to stumble on it incidentaly. Wotnow (talk) 15:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)Wotnow

In the fight at Robins Post, a Canadian poured beer into the bell of Spikes saxophone ("yes I also played that")

When Spike found the French Colonial piano in Tunisia he states that he tried out a few chords but refrained from playing his own version of chopsticks which involves dropping the trousers, he also mentions tinkling on the piano in a number of other stories in his biographies. 124.171.190.161 (talk) 08:04, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

No mention of his apperance on The Muppet Show

I don't know if I missed something, but it seems that there's no mention of Spike Milligan's appearance during the 3rd Season of the Muppet Show. I think you may want to reference this, since the Muppet Show 3rd Season box set was released recently. Violet yoshi (talk) 19:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The "Other notable TV involvement" section lists "Special guest star of the 18 January 1979 edition of The Muppet Show". Is that the one, or was he guest star in more than one Muppet Show? Contains Mild Peril (talk) 19:19, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Nationality

MOS:BIO under nationality & ethnicity states that

In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.

Spike Milligan became notable in the 1950s when he lived in the UK and held a British passport[6]. Therefore in order for this article to become objective his British nationality has to be mentioned in the lead sentence. Eckerslike (talk) 10:17, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Milligan initially had a UK passport because Ireland (where his parents were born) was part of the UK and India (where he was born) was part of the British Empire. Both of these things came to an end before the 1950s and this is why Milligan could not get his British passport renewed. The source above doesn't say exactly when he tried to renew his passport but it will be post 1948, when India became independent, implying 1958 at the latest. He had to get an Irish passport instead. I assume that this means that he actually ceased to be British and became either Irish or stateless in 1948 without even realising it.

Irish nationality gave him the right to live in the UK on the same basis as before so it would not have affected his day to day life in the UK much but it was still a bit of a kick in the teeth for a man who had served in the British army and been blown up for his trouble. His attitude to all this varied. Sometimes he would he happy to be seen as British and other times he would complain "Fuck off. I'm Irish!". The idea of artificially imposed borders and restrictions obstructing bemused people who have no say in these matters occurs regularly in his work. In Puckoon he sends up the process of drawing a national border to demonstrate its arbitrary nature and lack of grounding in reality.

The idea that India becoming independent can cause an Englishman to change into an Irishman is an idea worthy of the Goons and does make that lead sentence considerably harder to write for us. I would go for "UK based Irish comedian born in India". It captures the craziness of the situation while still being concise enough for the intro. --DanielRigal (talk) 11:26, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Up until 1968 the British Passport had to be renewed every 5 years. That meant that he had to have renewed his passport twice post Indian and Irish independence before becoming stateless in 1960. Up until that point he was a British citizen with all the rights a privileges that came with citizenship. You can argue that he didn't have the legal right to be British or that an error was made by the British government but that doesn't change the fact that he was a British citizen with a valid British passport. Eckerslike (talk) 03:43, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Milligan's nationality has been brought up several times, and each time the view has been that he is Irish. Although your view-point is different it does not mean that you should change the lede because it is your held belief. Please use the talk page as discussion and go with the majority view point. FruitMonkey (talk) 09:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

A person's self-image and their legal national association may well be noted. But, as DanielRigal points out, and perhaps especially, their ambivalence. Not every individual in the world is concerned with their national, political and racial identity. For an outsider to make claims on some important individual belonging to their group -- that the person themselves did not make -- is disingenuous. Racism, nationalism, bigotry -- these don't belong in Wikipedia. Except to the extent that they were notable in the individual's perception. Let's remember the man, here. Regards, Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 07:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

'Willium Mate'

Pretty sure that Willium Mate was played by Peter Sellers, not Spike. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.163.65.50 (talk) 14:04, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Definitely. 86.142.44.232 (talk) 13:36, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

The Film 'Adolf Hitler: My Part in his Downfall'

Delete this comment once it is answered... in the film 'Adolf Hitler: My Part in his Downfall' there are some really old actors acting as teenagers (Bishop Brennan, etc.) but the person acting Milligan has a most uncanny resemblance. I might have missed something, but was Spike Milligan ever an actor? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheExler (talk • contribs) 23:37, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Nationality not discussed in the article

Why is Milligan's nationality not discussed in the article? There is a brief sentence in the lead about him being declared stateless by the British government, and taking on Irish citizenship, and tons of discussion about this topic in this very talk page, but I can't find any other discussion of it in the article itself. As someone who, I'm sorry to say, wasn't familiar with Milligan's work, and just stumbled on this article because of his connection to Peter Sellers (please, please excuse my ignorance), I have to say that this struck me as the most interesting aspect of his personal life... But there's nothing, or at least very little in the article about it.Genesiswinter (talk) 04:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Advertising

I'm a little surprised that no mention has been made of the cinema advertising Spike did for Benson & Hedges cigarettes in the early/mid 70s. I remember definitely one (where Spike was one of a small group stealing gold bars, which turned out to be B&H packets) but think there may have been two or three that he appeared in. They were slapstick and dialogue-free micro-epics of several minutes in length, with a distinct storyline and (as you'd expect, given who was in them) quite funny. I saw these occasionally over a period of several years in Manchester cinemas. Does no-one else remember them? Zebideedoodah (talk) 21:48, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

The Obituary Show

There was a 1980s (perhaps even late 70s) series called The Obituary Show (BBC2, I think) where famous people discussed their careers and work. I never really watched it but do remember changing channel one night to see the very end of the one that starred Spike. The interviewer asked him what he thought would happen when he died and how it would be reported. Spike said (and I paraphrase, but this is more or less it): "Oh, it's always the same. The Nine O'Clock News will talk about the Goons and maybe show a bit of one of the Q series. There'll be a short pause, and then a voice will say: 'Spike Milligan, who died today.'" His intonation was perfect (and anyone who has seen a BBC news obit slot will know exactly what I mean). I never forgot this and, without being morbid, wanted to see whether it would actually happen whilst being sure that it would. Bugger me if I wasn't out of the country on the day he died. I never found out if it actually happened or not. Can anyone out there enlighten me? Zebideedoodah (talk) 22:00, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Hon KBE

I don't think there's any such postnominal as "Hon KBE". The article doesn't say when he was given this honour. If it was when he was still a British subject, then it should be "KBE" and he should be styled "Sir Terrence Millgan." If it was after he became an Australian citizen (assuming he did), then it should not appear at all, since Australia abolished imperial honours in 1983. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 22:15, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

AFAIK, Milligan never took Australian nationality, although he was an Australian resident for several years. He retained British nationality until this was taken away from him; he then became an Irish national, both parents having been born in Ireland. The article does show when the honorary KBE was awarded, see Spike Milligan#Prince of Wales, and this was after he became an Irish national. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't dispute that he was awarded an honorary KBE. I dispute that "Hon KBE" can appear after his name as a postnominal. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 09:11, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

You're just plain wrong about this. See the article on KBE, "Honorary knighthoods, given to individuals who are not nationals of a realm where Queen Elizabeth II is Head of State, permit use of the honour as a post-nominal but not as a title before their name." Exok (talk) 12:11, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Whether any person can use any postnominal is a matter of the law of the country of which they are a citizen. Whatever British law might say is irrelevant. Milligan was an Irish citizen, so you need to cite us an Irish law that permits Irish citizens to use Imperial postnominals. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 12:20, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Laws are generally prohibitive, it would be a strange parliament that enacted a statute governing what citizens might call themselves. The rule you need to worry about right now is WP:3RR and WP:CONSENSUS. Two editors have corrected your WP:BOLD edit, you have reverted four times. Exok (talk) 12:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

It is up to Mr Toad to provide evidence to support his claims. So far all the available evidence suggests otherwise. Afterwriting (talk) 12:29, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you can always win an argument at Wikipedia by the use of the 3R rule, which always penalises the person who makes the first edit in any dispute. That is always the point at which I say good night. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 12:34, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Instead of being so apparently petulant about this, just provide some evidence that Milligan wasn't permitted under Irish law to use KBE after his name. The burden of proof is to provide evidence that he wasn't permitted to do so - not with other editors to provide evidence that he was. Afterwriting (talk) 12:41, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Lord Kitchener's attitude?

Text says, "It was Milligan's opinion that Major Jenkins did not like him because Milligan constantly kept the morale of his fellow soldiers up, whereas Major Jenkins's approach was to take an attitude towards the troops similar to that of Lord Kitchener." I read the Kitchener article which gave a favorable tint to K's attitude. Which doesn't make sense, given the context of the Milligan article. So, I guess there's a PC vein; which could be circumvented? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.155.114 (talk) 02:58, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I've marked it {{citation needed}}. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:13, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm. Thank you, so I hope someone gives an example of Kitchener's attitude towards his troops that isn't so PC. 71.22.155.114 (talk) 20:23, 29 April 2012 (UTC)