Talk:Gaza flotilla raid

Very one-sided documented

This article looks like a joke. If you want to document this conflict with pictures, there should be at least pictures of injured activists. Wait, Israeli stole all video material from activists and journalists and never gave it back. I wonder why. The IDF has "nothing to hide" about this raid I thought? Either way, showing pictures on this page of only injured Israeli soldiers and activists "attacking" potrays this raid wrong. As for the activists "attacking" (according to the dictionary: "to begin hostilities against") the smuggled video of Lara Lee clearly shows the IDF sniping from helicopters before they entered.Also, mentioning this video in the article seems necessary because it's a good source that shows what happened. Waiting for feedback and other Wiki-users to get a consensus, and edit this page. Because now it looks pretty much like it's written by a spokesman of the IDF. Tijs schelstraete (talk) 18:44, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

It does, doesn't it. My experience of this area is that it's very well protected by some very zealous pro-Israeli sympathisers who wouldn't know NPOV if it ran over them in a tank. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:17, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. And reading your comments here I see that NPOV is not your intention. MathKnight 18:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

And, dear MathKnight, is NPOV your intention? Who do you really expect to believe that after reading your user page, especially the part praising Israeli bulldozers that "have saved many lives". (Rachel Corrie anyone?) Apologies, but you really fit the description of "very zealous pro-Israeli sympathiser". But you won't admit it here even if a bulldozer runs you over.--Noblivion (talk) 20:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Please AGF. If the article is neutral, why is there a caption saying "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to attack IDF soldiers" rather than "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to defend themselves from a boarding by IDF soldiers", or even just "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the ships activists"? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 00:57, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Haha, assume good faith when you talk about the "zealous pro-Israeli sympathisers" destroying the page? Such base hypocrisy... Plot Spoiler (talk) 06:47, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm talking about my impression of this and related pages in general and not naming or attacking any specific editors. Now, would you care to actually answer my point above, or just call me names? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 07:25, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Why there is a caption saying "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to attack IDF soldiers"? beacuse it is the most accurate description to the picture. The activists attacked IDF soldiers boarding the ship. In other ships, when IDF soldiers boarded them in order to take control of the bridge and redirect them to Ashdod port, and they were not attacked by activists, the soldiers didn't have to defend themselves with force and therefore none were injured. In the MV Maramara, soldiers encountered lethal violence from Islamist activists, attacking them with rods, clubs, knives and slingshots. They first used only paintball guns (non-lethal weapon) and resorted to their sidearms (i.e. pistols) when they were under life threat from the activists. MathKnight 09:47, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

It is just as accurate to say that the picture shows activists preparing to defend themselves from a boarding action while in international waters. And more neutral again to mereley state that the picture shows activists... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:54, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Not, it is not. The boarding itself is not a violent action and is legal under international law (when IDF commando boarded upon ships smuggling weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah, none of their crew thought of resisting the boarding with violence). Therefore, the "defense" claim drops. Would you say a criminal shooting a policeman is defending himself from an arrest? The second suggestion, omitting the part that they are holding weapons and prepare to use violence against IDF soldiers, is removing relevant information. When they are holding rods and knives, and wearing gas masks, it is clear they are not there for a social encounter or a pep rally, they gathered wqeapons and gear to prepare for a violent engagement. The fact is that the activists prepare themselves to attack the boarding soldiers, this is what the photo shows, and this is what the caption says. MathKnight 10:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Sources disagree about whether the boarding was legal or not - as is stated in the article, so no, the defense claim does not drop. See, for example, the UNHRC report, compared to the UN Palmer Report. Even the Palmer report, which agrees that the raid was legal, says excessive force was used. Regarding the picture - are we looking at the same one?

"When they are holding rods and knives" - one of those pictured is holding a rod of some kind. One is holding what might be a broom. None are holding knives.

"and wearing gas masks" - none of the four people whose faces are visible are wearing gas masks?

As per the Foreign Press Association quoted in the article, "Israel is validating its own account by selectively using the seized video and equipment from reporters on board". The photo shows nothing more than 5 people on the deck of a ship and nothing more can be read into it. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Other pictures show activists with gas masks, rods, slingshot and knives. Even in this photo, it is clear that they are not cleaning the ship with broomsticks. As for the UNHRC, it has lost credibility by many, including the UN Secretary Generals, so its report doesn't prove anything and no one (maybe other than Turkey, Hamas, Iran and their supporters) takes it seriously. The Palmer reports clearly states that the boarding was legal. The activists had no right to attack the soldiers, as criminals don't have the right to shoot policemen, even if the policemen are trying to arrest them. Had the activists not attacked the boarding soldiers - no violence and no injuries would occure, as seen in other boats where the boarding ended peacfully and without violence. No one has claimed that the IDF forged these photoes (FPA only claimed it shown certain photoes and not all of them). This photo and other photoes, as well as the photoes and videos showing activists attacking soldiers with rods and knives, prove that the activist did prepare to attack the soldier and did attacked them. So the caption is correct - they did prepare to attack the soldiers. MathKnight 12:38, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

"Other pictures show activists with gas masks, rods, slingshot and knives." This one doesn't. "Even in this photo, it is clear that they are not cleaning the ship with broomsticks." No, they're not. They're standing/moving about a deck. That is all that the picture shows, nothing more, nothing less. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Waving rods with anger is not a recreational or peaceful activity. After waving the rods in an aggressive manner they used them to beat the soldiers. MathKnight 11:05, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

You're able to discern emotion and movement from a camera still? Good trick. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

@ MathKnight. I think shooting somebody in the head from a few inches distance can't be considered "peaceful" either. A video you can watch yourself of the execution of Furkan Dogan Dogan shows this clearly on youtube. There was also SNIPING before they entered as you can see on the Lara Lee footage. A handful of people responded with slingshots, kitchen knives,.. which is peanuts compared to what the IDF did. I'm not saying the activists their resistance was non-violent, but it was defense. This article and the pictures portray the attack as if the activists were the agressors. Don't forget passengers of others ships also were wounded by the agresisve way the IDF boarded.

I also want to address this: The IDF stole all the videos and pictures they could from journalists and activists who were on the ships, and very few got leaked. Most of the pictures used on this Wiki-page come directly from dubious IDF propaganda sites. This wikipedia article doesn't portray neutrality at all. There are plenty of allegations some of the pictures and short movie clips the IDF releases were forged. I'm talking about f.e. about the picture which is used on this article with the quote: "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to attack IDF soldier". Tijs schelstraete (talk) 22:17, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

IMHO, both sides on this talk page exhibit too much emotions (which is perfectly understandable, but inappropriate when one is wearing a hat of Wikipedia editor). On the question of the caption "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to attack IDF soldiers" - I think both "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to attack IDF soldiers" and "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists preparing to defend themselves from a boarding by IDF soldiers" are equally incorrect, and not because of partisan opinions, but because both are invalid WP:SYN. If some WP:RS has called this video or picture "preparing to attack" or "preparing to defend" - we would be able to refer to it as "such as such source has named it 'preparing to...'", otherwise all the analysis (would there be a loss of life if...) is invalid WP:SYN (essentially violating WP:V, which is fundamental to Wikipedia: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth"). As I understand, the only non-disputed fact about that video is that it is activists shortly before the boarding, so I would suggest to change wording to "Footage taken from the Mavi Marmara security cameras showing the activists shortly before the boarding". Ipsign (talk) 08:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Do we know the material originates from the Mavi Marmara, as opposed to a studio? This "footage" was released by the IDF. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the statement [1] with the edit summary "someone must cite a source to support the statement then restore it. WP:V compliance is mandatory. it shouldn't be difficult to source if it is true". People, please, this article is covered by sanctions. Statements must have sources. The statement has been challenged so someone needs to provide a source. Surely the IDF said something along these lines about this footage which could be used and attributed to them. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

This is more silly than I thought. The photo is from the official IDF flickr site. The caption says "Mavi Marmara Activists Prepare to Attack IDF Soldiers" so that is a suitable source right there that can support the statement as long as the statement is attributed to the IDF. I shall add the citation. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

2011 diplomatic crisis

Why is there no mention of Turkey giving Israel a deadline to apologize and lift the Gaza blockade after the Palmer report? Turkey actually recalled its ambassador and threatened to send Turkish warships on escort missions for future flotillas. I would think that this diplomatic crisis is a noteworthy topic to put in the article.--RM (Be my friend) 04:35, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I wanted to add the additional ongoing consequences of this raid, including the exclusion of Israel in NATO Summits (blocked by Turkey until an apology agreement has been met), but haven't been able to edit. Fancynancywhy (talk) 22:23, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Added a local reflist... --Mirokado (talk) 23:48, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Editing Suggestion

The article on the Gaza Flotilla raid contains lengthy in depth analysis of the raid of the Mavi Marmara and its aftermath. By contrast, the MV Mavi Marmara article itself, surprisingly has almost no content on these events. I suggest a more general paragraph in this article and the current content to be transferred to the MV Mavi Marmara. AnkhMorpork (talk) 20:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for posting this suggestion. The MV Mavi Marmara article is about the ship itself and summarises both of the Gaza events in which she was involved, with main-article links to the full articles for each. If we describe the GFR involvement in detail there the article will be out of proportion. The events on board, are central to much of the rest of Gaza flotilla raid and belong, I think, in that article as at present.

Having said that, it is certainly true that GFR loads slowly and is about twice the "nice recommended size" of 60kb, so we should continue to look for possibilities to split it. The last split produced a 30k article but only saved about 20k from the original, because of the remaining summary and shared references, so we don't gain as much as we might expect. An advantage of splitting within reason is that each new topic has room to grow naturally. --Mirokado (talk) 00:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

For further reading

I would suggest the addition of another source under "Further Reading":

"Drawing a Line in the Sea: The 2010 Gaza Flotilla Incident and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict", edited by Thomas Copeland, Alethia Cook, and Lisa McCartan. Published by Lexington Books, 2011.

PoliProf (talk) 15:28, 26 March 2012 (UTC) PoliProf

Gaza Flotilla Massacre

"Gaza flotilla massacre" would seem to me to be a more appropriate title for this article. "Raid" does not convey the brutality or utter lack of regard for human life displayed by the Israelis during this "incident". It was a massacre. Let's call it what it was instead of trying to be politically correct in order not to hurt people's feelings. AnAimlessRoad (talk) 13:44, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Nine idiots dead does not equal a massacre. If people are stupid enough to attack trained men with guns using no more than metal bars and sticks they kinda get what they deserve. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe we should leave this popular opinion out of the discussion all together. 107.7.55.19 (talk) 21:33, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Darkness Shines, I'm sure in your mind those goyim "idiots" deserved to be murdered for being "stupid" enough to resist a violent attack, but that is not the general international consensus in regards to the Gaza flotilla massacre. Perhaps it is the consensus in zionist circles, but not elsewhere. In any case, such sentiments as yours have clearly crept into this article, and it is quite inappropriate. AnAimlessRoad (talk) 16:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Sentiments such as yours have no place in a civilized society. But lets put your claim to the test anyway shall we? "Gaza flotilla raid" 1,100,000 results. "Gaza flotilla massacre" 264,000 results. Were exactly is that consensus you mentioned? Darkness Shines (talk) 16:49, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

What's the issue here? It was indeed a raid, but it was also a massacre. The media are bound by political correctness when it comes to reporting Israel-related issues, but wikipedia, being an encyclopedia, should not be. I think it's about time people start calling the "Gaza flotilla raid" what it was rather than whitewashing the massacre in order to avoid damaging fragile zionist egos.

I don't know what your individual definition of "civilised society" constitutes, but, as far as I'm concerned, in a civilised society all unlawful killings should be condemned equally... regardless of the ethnicity or religious affiliation of the killers. Judging from your comments, I'd assume that you do not agree. AnAimlessRoad (talk) 18:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Read WP:INDENT. Again, not a massacre going by the Google results above. When I am attacked I respond with deadly force, does this make me a murderer? Killing people in self defense is not unlawful. Perhaps you ought to reread WP:NPOV instead of whining about "fragile zionist egos" Also review WP:NOTAFORUM and WP:SOAPBOX while your about it. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:23, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Google results do not a reliable source make, my friend. :-)

I honestly have no idea why you are directing me to WP:NPOV when your argument is basically that humanitarian activists deserved to be brutally murdered, including wounded activists being tossed overboard to drown according to eyewitnesses, simply for resisting a violent attack. Perhaps you should take a look at WP:NPOV yourself. But in any case, I agree that we are both veering somewhat off topic, and should try to remain on the issue of the Gaza flotilla slaughter. So educate me... If the deliberate, calculated, illegal slaughter of at least nine innocent people does not qualify as a massacre, what does qualify, pray tell? You're telling me it was self-defense because the activists were armed with frying pans? Give me a break.

Sincerest apologies for the lack of indentation, though it has absolutely no relation to the issue at hand. I am new to editing wikipedia, and haven't gotten the hang of every quirk. Practice makes perfect though, I'm sure you'll agree. AnAimlessRoad (talk) 18:55, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I doubt you are as new as you say. But lets try this "The assault on the Gaza flotilla refers to the Israeli military operation against six humanitarian ships carrying aid bound for Gaza on May 31, 2010" Does not call it a massacre. "The international outcry in response to Israel's raid on the Mavi Marinara was immediate." Nor does this. It appears the academic press does not think it a massacre. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:56, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Please refrain from making baseless accusations.

I think a compromise is in order. It's clear that, while the massacre is most frequently referred to as a "raid" (not in the least bit surprising, as it was indeed a raid) it is also frequently labelled a "massacre".

Hakan Albayrak, Yeni Safak Daily journalist, stated:“It was an outright massacre what Israel did out there. They attacked us in international waters. We protected our ship. We had no weapons." http://www.todayszaman.com/news-212103-israel-killed-more-than-9-threw-wounded-into-sea-witnesses-say.html

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the prime minister of Turkey, stated: "This bloody massacre by Israel on ships that were taking humanitarian aid to Gaza deserves every kind of curse." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-raid-turkey-prime-minister-israel

Mahmoud Abbas said: "What Israel has committed on board the freedom flotilla was a massacre." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/31/israel-kills-activists-flotilla-gaza

Venezuelan foreign minister Nicolas Maduro: "You have to classify this as a massacre..." http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/Venezuela_Gaza_Flotilla_Affair.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_2 < (labelled by the ADL as an anti-semitic comment rofl)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/phyllis-bennis/from-istanbul-outrage-ove_b_596158.html

Etc etc. Do you want more examples? Because I can provide them. Using the term "massacre" to describe the flotilla attack is not exactly radical. Indeed, it is widespread.AnAimlessRoad (talk) 22:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the current title is the most NPOV one we'll probably find, though a redirect from "... massacre" is also probably in order. However, I find Darkness Shines's form of argumentation utterly clownish. "nine idiots"? "no place in a civilized society"? Laughably biased, not to be taken seriously. Homunq (talk) 23:06, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with what user Homunq as it most neutral title--Shrike (talk) 06:39, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Who will take the time to fix the error in: 'The members well-trained and equipped with gas masks and bulletproof vests.' There's a verb missing and I can't seem to find the edit button... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.35.112.206 (talk) 01:38, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

@AnAimlessRoad - This is what I understand from both the long video put out by the flotilla people with reports from the Turkish media and the videos from the Israeli army along with reports from Israeli newspapers (sometimes giving out a bit more than was intended by the military): Both sides edited and pulled out some parts, but it seems most parts are there and it is not hard to reconstruct a valid image by connecting both sides of the story into one coherent image. My conclusion is that it was NOT a massacre. Please bear with me, even if at first you do not agree.

First a "timeline" of what happened. Then a short summary:

Although the "activists" (who called themselves "soldiers" in the movie made during the flotilla and aired by their organization) attacked the Israelis with crowbars and knives, and although they abducted 3 Israeli soldiers and held them in custody, thinking they had one killed, and another deadly wounded (it turned out that the killed one was unconscious, and the other only badly, but not deadly, wounded), still, the Israelis were not aware of the abductions, and continued the "paintball" attack using plastic bullets (for crowd dispersion), so that live fire was only authorized when one of the Israeli's abducted handguns was used by the "activists" with live fire against the Israelis, 2 minutes after the beginning of the action.

The last landing Israeli "seal" who's commander was the first to land and was thrown overboard now unconscious and in custody, and two others badly wounded from stabbings, and stripped from their uniform, weapons and personal communication system, was able to call the Israeli command and he is heard in the Israeli movies yelling: YES YES! I'M SURE. THEY ARE FIRING LIVE! At 2 and half minutes from the landing, (on the flotilla movie you clearly hear the helicopters and even see them once, after the paintball liquid hits the walls), two wounded activist soldiers (clearly seen beforehand preparing with the soldiers) are carried to a "doctor". They are seen "treated" (or more correctly mistreated) by American activists who obviously have no medical training, causing their death, as real doctor, who treats them later in movie points out. They have been hit with "plastic bullets" and could have been saved. The real activist doctor, for the first time stripping the wounded of their clothes as medical practice calls for, shows and even taps the bullet wound and says: "Plastic". This means that there is no "bullet" entrance or exit just a very bad tearing wound where it hit.

The situation about 3 minutes after the initial deck landing: 2 badly wounded activist soldiers in ship internal, being treated by non-medical staff. 3 badly wounded Israelis in "activist" custody (one thought to be dead), two "seal" teams on deck under knife and life threatening attack, while themselves in non-lethal "crowd dispersion" mode.

Live ammunition is authorized, "Were finished with the paintball, no more games" (heard in the Israeli movies), and the last seal from the first team shoots and kills one of the four attackers who has been trying to stab him. (the others were with crowbars, they worked in teams of 8 to 10, four or five throwing the landing "seals" off balance and the rest dealing with toppled seals). He then returns fire towards the shooter, wounding him. The three attackers begin fleeing as this seal shoots at another nine attackers engaged with two of his team, killing one and wounding two (according to Israeli news leaks) The rest of the seal teams whip out there guns at this point wounding another two, and the attackers flee, going down into the ship taking their wounded and leaving the dead.

By now there are 7 wounded activist soldiers (all with reason, none in a "massacre"): two from plastic, one after shooting from a handgun and still holding it, four while beating or stabbing - as can be proven from the other cases at this stage, in an attempt to kill. (The wounded are seen in the "Dont photo this!" section of the flotilla movie, where they are getting close to the room with the Israeli soldiers by mistake)

There are also 2 dead activist soldiers (the attacker with the knife, and one of the other attacker teams), and 7 badly wounded Israeli soldiers - 3 in custody of the activists.

Around 7 minutes after the landing the newly arrived Israeli teams are ready to raid the internals of the boat. They have taken the bridge and the boat is now heading towards Ashdod. Now aware of the abducted soldiers they call for the activists to open the doors but are answered with defiance. The locks are shot after warnings to move away (as seen on the flotilla movie).

This part is missing from both sides filmed accounts - purposefully (because the rest continues). According to Israeli newsmen (actually newswomen) during the raid the activist soldiers realized that this was a raid with live ammunition. They abandoned the Israeli soldiers thinking they were mortally wounded. Two of the Israeli soldiers fled and jumped deck into the water. The third was recovered by the team that stormed the ship internals.

The activists where now closed in a barricaded section of the ship (including the newsroom). The Israelis stop the raid, and call in medical teams. They call the activists to open for the medical teams. They know that there are wounded activists and wish to treat them. The medics plea with the activists but are refused.

Summary:

Preparation: Activists call themselves soldiers, pray together before the religious holy war, prepare for combat,

Action:

• They abduct 3 Israelis, killing one and mortally wounding two (only later to find out that they were not killed and not mortally wounded, but that was their intention and what they thought).
• They Open fire with abducted gun and refuse to accept medical attention. (Perhaps in order to die as martyrs).

Results:

• 2 Activist soldiers killed from documented mistreatment of "crowd dispersal" wounds.
• 5 Activist soldiers killed from wounds not treated, received during active combat - probably could have been saved.
• 2 Activist soldiers killed directly by Israeli soldier during active combat.

Massacre? פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 10:03, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

If the Itamar killings were a massacre, then so was this. The Fogel family were armed members of an illegal settlement, against whom resistance is specifically sanctioned by the UN. FRom every angle the deaths of these activists was a more serious crime.