Wikipedia talk:No original research

Web search results

I would have thought citing search engine results is original research, but at this Talk: page another user suggests it is acceptable [as evidence for the relative frequency of different phrases]. I note {{Google templates}} is not to be used in the article namespace, and WP:LINKSTOAVOID deprecates external links to search results but I found nothing explicitly relating to references. Perhaps this needs to be explicitly mentioned in Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and/or Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. jnestorius^(talk) 14:37, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Citing the relative frequency of search engine results cannot by definition be primary research, since all it does is count (and, if followed through, locate) items of previously published information. It is a perfectly reasonable piece of secondary research to cite when the issue at hand is, precisely, the relative frequency of different usages for (in the instance under discussion) various names for one place. Brocach (talk) 16:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Probably WP:IRS. It's definitely not something we should use - not only does it vary with the search engine, the way you phrase the search, probably the country and even time of day perhaps (I've found the same search turn up different numbers of items when I run it later), it's going to churn out rubbish - it will find self-published stuff, mirrors or printed copies of our articles, you name it. Dougweller (talk) 15:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I think it's only appropriate on talk pages for deciding among editors what to name the article, what other phrases also used to describe topic of article, various other uses of phrases or descriptions. And then you have to be careful that you actually have narrowed your search requirements. Searching John Francis Smith III without quotes will get you many more returns than searching "John Francis Smith III" with quotes. Though it might be helpful to mention that here very briefly for clarification. On the other hand, enough people always seem to know it when the topic comes up. CarolMooreDC 05:16, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Dougweller- obviously to have any value as an indicator of relative frequency of usage of two (or more) versions of a name etc., the search terms would have to be used with precision (e.g. in Google, with quotes), and one should (as I always do) use several search engines. When reasonably consistent results are returned, that does not constitute original research, but it can provide evidence worth citing as to which of the alternative forms is more widely used (on the web, at least). CarolMooreDC, I understand your expectation that this sort of 'source' should be confined to talk page discussions, but in the case at issue, the article included discussion of various forms of a place name, so it made sense (in my view) to put it in the body. Brocach (talk) 23:57, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Please note that the Wikipedia:No original research policy only applies to article content.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 04:15, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

If we want to know which terms are most frequently used we should use a source that tells us. Counting Google hits is original research. A high number of hits for a term may be found because it is popular with bloggers, the hits may be using the words to mean something different, etc. Also, a search for "County Down" will register a hit for "Jones County, Down County". TFD (talk) 01:05, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Original Research from reliable primary sources for exclusion, not inclusion

Please discuss -

“When a secondary source is in conflict with a reliable primary source, then the reliable primary sources can be used to exclude in information, but not include it.”

An example is when a line stating living person’s age has a reliable mainstream newspaper as the source, but the very reliable primary source of government birth records indicates the newspaper made an error, then the information about age should be removed from the article based on the reliable primary source, but not included from the primary source which is original research. PPdd (talk) 13:47, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

When reliable sources conflict, the simplest solution is for the article to say "source A says X, whereas source B says Y". Deciding whether A or B is more likely to be wrong cannot be reduced to a simple rule like one being primary and the other secondary. jnestorius^(talk) 16:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

PPdd your assumption that government records (like birth certificates) are inherently more accurate than newspapers is flawed. This is not always the case. Let me present an example: If you were writing an article about me (assuming I was notable), and you looked at my birth certificate, you would read that my mother was born in Manilla, RI (ie in Rhode Island)... in fact, she was born in Manilla, PI (ie in the Philippine Islands). What obviously occurred was that somewhere in the process of filling out my birth certificate, someone swapped an R for a P (easy enough to do). Thus, my birth certificate contains erroneous information. Now, if I were to be interviewed by the newspaper, and they asked me where my mother was born, I would say "in the Philippines". The newspaper account would be accurate.

Of course, there is no way for you (the person writing an article for Wikipedia) to know that the newspaper is accurate and my birth certificate is not. All you know is that there is a discrepancy. So you have two options a) Look for for further sources that will clarify the facts, or b) present the discrepancy by mentioning what both sources say. Blueboar (talk) 18:16, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

To Blueboar, to make sure I am understanding your explanation correctly; in the specific example of confusion over a living person's age or birthplace (or something similar), an outright statement by the living person in question, intentionally given to debunk any false or misleading statements about the issue in dispute (DOB, birthplace, etc.), would trump any inaccurate legal documentation, incorrectly sourced media statements, deliberately-made slanderous or libelous statements, or any other source that conflicts with their own from-the-horse's-mouth statement? (Assuming, of course, that the Wikipedia author/editor was the person this statement was made to) Blozier2006 (talk) 22:31, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily. I certainly tend to give a lot of weight to published statements by the person in question, but to know comparative weight between sources (ie which source outweighs or "trumps" the other) I would have to look at the specifics of each case separately. Most of the time, neither source "trumps" the other... so we present what both have to say. In my example, I would say something like: "Blueboar's birth certificate gives his Mother's birth place as Manila, RI (Road Island) <cite birth cirtificate>. In an interview given in the Boston Tribune, Blueboar claimed that his birth certificate contains a clerical error and that his Mother was actually born in Manila, PI (Philippine Islands) <cite Tribune interview>. Blueboar (talk) 23:25, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, thank you for the clarification. Blozier2006 (talk) 23:50, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

And just to complicate things... we also need to keep in mind that there might be other sources that confirm (or debunk) either source. This too impacts how much weight to give each source. Blueboar (talk) 00:21, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

A birth certificate is not a reliable source unless it has been published, as for example the American president's birth certificate. But that is rare. If a newspaper adds ten years to your age, you should get the paper to issue a correction, rather than to correct it here. The typical conflict between a primary and secondary source comes when a secondary source misrepresents a primary source, in which case we could just use the primary source. For example, a newspaper reported that x said y, while a published transcript says that he said z. TFD (talk) 00:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

A birth certificate is published if it is available to any member of the public who wishes to pay the fee; this is the case in some US states. A birth certificate that is only available to certain select persons is not published. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Blueboar is correct that birth certificates often contain errors, but newspapers contain errors vastly more often. So, if we prefer Wikipedia to be right more often than wrong, while maintaining our ban on original research, we ought to allow birth certificates that are publicly available and not allow those which are not publicly available. Of course, if a secondary source has examined the birth certificate and declared it mistaken, we have to go with that. Zero^talk 14:31, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

We do allow birth certificates and other such publicly available documents ... however, we should also remember that such documents are primary sources, and as such are subject to the limitations and cautions of all primary sources. They can be used, but should be used with caution and care. Blueboar (talk) 14:47, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Dividing line between "Published/Reliable" and "Original Research" ?

I understand that Wikipedia has a policy of not putting on here statements which cannot be directly attributed to a reliable, published source... my question is, wouldn't a now-published, now-reliable source had to have been considered "Original Research" itself, until somebody else decided to publish it and declare it reliable, at some point in time? No, I am not trying to create any kind of personal-belief-driven arguments, I'm genuinely interested in discussing this policy and learning what divides a "Reliable, Published" source from something that may be considered at present to be "Original Research" simply because nobody has published it yet or declared it to be reliable. Thank you in advance for being patient and understanding with my question... Blozier2006 (talk) 22:18, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

OR primarily refers to content in WP, meaning research normally has to be published elsewhere before it can be integrated into WP. So researchers are not supposed to publish their results via WP.

In addition there is the problem how WP treats original research in external sources, which is what you are talking about. This is a somewhat grey area that requires some common sense. If possible WP tries not to rely on such original publications, but (in doubt) wait for additional publications (in particular review articles), which indicate that the research of that original publication has become established knowledge (collecting/describing the established knowledge and providing free access to it, is the primary goal of WP). However depending on exact the context of the original publication, you may still want to use it to include the most recent authoritative information on subject and/or if you can be sufficiently certain that the original publication is correct anyway. For instance in many cases can original publications in (prestigious) peer reviewed journals be considered as reliable enough to be considered "established knowledge" already and hence may be used as a source. However in some cases in particular in heavily disputed fields it might not be appropriate to cite original publications and also if you cite an original publication do in doubt describe it as a claim or opinion of scholar X rather describing it as a fact (=established knowledge). Also in addition various fields in WP may have additional recommendation how to deal with original publications. Another aspect to consider here is notability. Many opinions/claims in original publications without a reception in the academic community may simple not be notable and hence not to be included in WP and consequently not to be used as a source either.--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:57, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

(e/c) If I understand your question, I think you have a confusion about to what material the standards of original research and reliable sources apply. Original research is a standard applied to material we wish to add to the encyclopedia and not to the external source. Whether a source is reliable looks to the external source and not to the material we wish to add (except to the extent context of use plays a role). When we question whether a source is reliable, we don't ask whether it is not previously published, or a synthesis of other material, or reaches a new conclusion not present in the source it, itself, may draw from (i.e. the questions we ask when considering whether material added here is original research). Rather, we ask whether it is the type of source that has a reputation for fact checking and accuracy; whether the manner it's material is drawn from comes from a scholarly source or a self-published blog, and so on.

To provide an example, if you wanted to add to an article the statement that: "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously", we would ask whether a reliable source out in the world had already published that concept and whether, even if some had, the way we were presenting the material presented a conclusion not explicitly held by any of the sources. That would be the original research query. However, if we were questioning (quite separately), reliability of sources, and were presented with "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously<ref>External Source 1</ref><ref>External Source 2</ref> we would ask whether external sources 1 and 2 have a reputation for fact checking an accuracy. Does that help? Did I miss your point?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:10, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Each publication decides what kind of material it wishes to publish. Golf Digest does not print articles about seismology. Lancet does not publish articles about knitting (unless knitters have an inordinate tendency to develop a medical disorder). Wikipedia is not the first publisher of original research. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:46, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Re:Fuhghettaboutit: You are pretty well spot-on about what I was asking... Basically, you are saying "Don't make a statement here unless you can back it up", right? Similarly to how you will automatically will be flunked on a research paper if you do not supply what sources you used in writing the paper (so as to prove you are presenting factual statements and are not committing plagiarism), an article you either write here, or contribute to here, will not be considered acceptable if you do not mention on what basis you are making your statements... correct? Blozier2006 (talk) 00:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

yes and no. It is not sufficient to simply show on what basis your are making your statements, but we impose some (strong) criteria on the "basis" as well and in a way stronger it is for academic publication as they are allowed (or even expected) to contain OR. Even decent OR article backs up his claims as well, but his claims are new conclusions/claims/theories, which is something we do not allow in WP. We do not allow "backed up" new conclusions in WP, they need to be published (and reviewed) elsewhere first.--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

To try to clarify... WP:NOR goes a step beyond saying "Don't make a statement here unless you can back it up"... it also specifies how we have to back it up. We must to be able to point to reliable sources that (effectively) say the same thing that we say.

Our job, as editors of a tertiary source, is to summarize (in our own words) and report on what others (reliable sources) have said about a topic. The sources might say something original... but we are not being original when we summarize and report what they said. Blueboar (talk) 15:15, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Trollhunter#Move to Trolljegeren?

Is it an original research to conclude one source as more reliable than other sources for article titling in terms of English translation of non-English titles? Discuss more by clicking above. --George Ho (talk) 15:47, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Dictionary as a source

A dispute has arisen at Talk:Welfare about the main meaning of the word "welfare" and whether the meaning of "government aid" is primarily North American. Three dictionary sources have been produced as follows

The Oxford Dictionary

1. "health, happiness, and fortunes of a person or group"
2. "chiefly North American financial support given to those who are unemployed or otherwise in need

The Longman dictionary

1. "health and happiness"
2. "help for people with personal or social problems" (welfare benefits, welfare services, welfare programs etc)
3. American English. "money paid by government to the poor or unemployed"

The Macmillan dictionary

1. the health and happiness of people or good care
   1. good care and living conditions for animals
2. care provided by the state or another organization for people in need
   1. Mainly American money given to people who do not have work or who are in need. (The usual British word is benefit)

As far as I can tell all three dictionaries say that the meaning of "money or financial aid from the government" is mainly North American.

Another editor has claimed that these dictionary references are PRIMARY SOURCES and that we need other secondary sources before we accept that the meaning of "government aid" is primarily North American usage. He claims that my producing these as sources is OR or SYN. Is that correct? I would have thought that dictionary compilers refer to a wide variety of other primary sources before accepting an entry and that these dictionary entries are therefore a scholarly and reliable impeccable secondary or tertiary sources for Wikipedia. 84.250.230.158 (talk) 17:47, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

See WP:DISAMBIG: articles are about topics, not words. Where a word nay have more than one meaning, we create more than one article. TFD (talk) 19:32, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree. It has been suggested and I am in favor of that. The issue is about whether the word WELFARE equates to the topic in the article (which, as it stands is about "government aid"). It seems that this meaning is used primarily in the U.S. and therefore a dispute has been about whether the title can be used without further clarification given that the main meaning in countries outside the U.S. would seem to be "well-being". Another editor seemed reluctant to accept that the meaning of the term "welfare" as "government aid" was primarily North American. It was suggested that I needed a secondary source to prove this before the other editor would accept it as a valid argument. I produced the dictionary definitions but he said I was engaging in OR or breaking a rule about not using a primary source. But as I see it, this is not OR and the source is perfectly valid. A dictionary is surely a secondary sources as the dictionary compilers use many other sources). I don't understand how I could be engaging in SYN (another accusation put to me). Now he seems to be accusing me of coming here to WP:CANVAS. All I am doing is trying to establish whether a dictionary is an acceptable source for something being asserted as factual. It would be helpful to have a yes or no answer to that question.84.250.230.158 (talk) 21:05, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

An article is about a topic. Does the first sentence of the article 'Welfare refers to a broad discourse which may hold certain implications regarding the provision of a minimal level of wellbeing and social supportfor all citizens.' describe the topic of the article? That is really all that matters. The dictionary is not very relevant. There is no need for a separate article for the same topic in another country just because a different term is used for it. There are various terms like social security for instance but welfare is perfectly okay. We don't need separate articles on cootie catcher and Salt cellar (origami) and paper fortune teller, the first two simply redirects to the third. Dmcq (talk) 22:52, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The first line may capture both concepts, "well-being" and "social support", but the bulk of the article is about financial support, and in most countries that is NOT called "welfare". It is Welfare Support, or Welfare aid, or Social Protection, or Social Security or Income Support etc. etc. but not "Welfare" on its own except perhaps in the USA. Another editor has said that America is 1/7th of the World's English speakers and so WELFARE (as financial aid) is alright. I disagree. Isn't Football a good model here? Here we have a topic that means different things to different people in different cultures. So the article talks about the wide variety of football games without ever assuming that one meaning is the right meaning. I think we need to do the same with Welfare. It too means different things and we should not assume that one is more correct than the other. 84.250.230.158 (talk) 23:30, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Well to start with, the "social support" meaning is what the article is about and probably the only meaning that would merit an article vs. just a dictionary definition. As far as where you go from there, there are several possible routes. My suggestion (amongst all of them) would be to continue to have it be about social support, but acknowledge and briefly discuss the other meaning. This would do a good service to readers. I have run across other major words/topics where the meaning is different in different places in the world, and it was a painfully slow process learning this on the article talk page. Clarifying it in the article will save readers all of that work/pain and present very useful world view level enlightenment. North8000 (talk) 23:46, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

A child living with wealthy parents that offer him/her no love or affection is not lacking "government support services" but is certainly is lacking in "welfare". If the article is about welfare as "social support " then the article title should be Welfare (social support and Welfare should be the disambiguation page that it was for many years. It would be wrong to make the football article solely about rugby football (even if the lede said that this was the topic of the article) when most of the world cannot be sure what "football" means when talking to an international audience. The argument at Talk:Welfare is now about the title of the article. The issue I had in coming here was to determine whether using a dictionary definition to prove the regional bias of the minor definition amounts to WP:OR. So far nobody has said it does.84.250.230.158 (talk) 09:08, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I think calling this a WP:OR issue is stretching things. It is really a typical WP:Article title debate... one that requires a multi-step analysis to resolve... First we need to determine the scope of the article in question (Is it limited to the system of government support for the poor that is specific to the US, or is it covering the systems of government support for the poor that exist in multiple nations?).

Once that is determined, we can then move to the next step... If the scope is specific to the US, then the discussion becomes whether to use the proper name of that system ("Welfare") as the title, or whether to use a descriptive phrase (such as "Welfare system in the United States") as the title.

If the scope is international, then we can not use a proper name as the title (since various nations have different names for their systems of support)... we must entitle the article with a descriptive phrase (such as "Governmental support for the poor"]]).

The final step is to determine if the chosen title requires disambiguation. That is determined by whether there is an existing article that uses the title. If there is not, then there is no need to disambiguate... or rather there is no need to do so at this time (this may change in the future ... once another article that wishes to use the title is written). Blueboar (talk) 13:50, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I think this is a very sensible approach.84.250.230.158 (talk) 22:51, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Scientific papers in peer reviewed publications as supporting citations

I have been told that no scientific articles published in peer reviewed publications are suitable for inclusion in wikipedia as references because they violate the Original Research policy. Could you take a look at Talk:Bacteriological water analysis and let me know if, in fact, no scientific papers should be used as sources on Wikipedia? Thank you. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:33, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Just to declare my interest as I reverted the addition. If Wikipedia were to permit the use of individual peer reviewed scientific publications as references then even such an obscure topic as Bacteriological water analysis could be overwhelmed by references - I might be able to find 1000+ without getting out of my chair. There is also the real risk that scientists anxious to ensure that their paper gains a wide readership would insert highly tangential references just to get a mention. I believe that the current guidance is appropriate and reasonable and would advocate maintenance of the status quo.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   17:14, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

→ Just to be clear - there wasn't any removal of content by Velella in this case; I suggested the consideration of a scientific paper at the article in question on the talk page. That suggestion led to the present conversation. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 20:38, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

That slippery slope argument isn't going anywhere. If you can find 1000+ different peer-reviewed papers to cite the same statement than that statement probably doesn't need a reference or can be referenced to a textbook. But in many other cases, peer-reviewed articles are the best option. Not everything that appears in print need appear on Wikipedia though and your concern about tangential subjects and tangential references should be handled using guidelines on due weight and notability. Citations of peer-reviewed journal are so central to Wikipedia that User:Citation bot which is entirely devoted to this issue has tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of edits. Pichpich (talk) 17:40, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Citation bot works with all citations and with any sources. The fact that Citation Bot exists and operates in Wikipedia is not an endorsement of the use of primary sources. I have made no reference to a"slippery slope" nor should my comments be used to draw such an inference. I stated an opinion that if primary sources were routinely accepted as reliable sources then there is a risk that some articles would be overwhelmed by references. A cursory glance at any scientific parer will usually show that for that paper alone very many other quoted sources are listed. Wikipedia articles are (thankfully) generally more wide ranging than scientific papers and the number of references is potentially very much greater. The readership of Wikipedia articles will also be poorly served by an interminable list of references which are likely to dwell on research minutiae rather than provide enlightenment on the general topic.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   19:16, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

You're arguing that citing any individual peer reviewed paper is against Wikipedia policy. This is nonsense and again I think it's obvious that citation bot would have never been created or allowed to perform the tasks it currently performs if a significant number of people shared that view. Pichpich (talk) 20:43, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

→I think that this is largely a misunderstanding around initially the definition of "original research" and second around whether or not scientific publications are acceptable sources. As I noted on the talk page which prompted my coming here, scientific publications in general are 'secondary sources', which are allowed by policy for inclusion as supporting citations and on which Wikipedia relies heavily. Granted, one cannot generally support the retention of an article which relies solely on secondary sources; a consequence of this is that massively obscure topics which are either too new, fringe or abstruse to be considered by the tertiary sources which meet minimum Wikipedia inclusion guidelines would not survive here as stand-alone articles, something which addresses in part Velella's slippery-slope concern. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:08, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Different disciplines use the term "primary source" and "secondary source" in different ways. The usage in this policy is necessarily a compromise among the fields. A peer-reviewed scientific paper might be considered a primary source if it reports new experimental results, rather than discusses previously reported results. A secondary source would not report new experimental results, but might report new conclusions based on analysis of previous reports. Tertiary sources are typically encyclopedias and textbooks. The notability policy requires that articles contain citations to secondary or tertiary sources. The lack of tertiary sources is not grounds to call for an article to be deleted. Indeed, tertiary sources are usually considered less desirable than secondary sources. Jc3s5h (talk) 04:12, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Please note... OR is about how we use sources, not about their classification... Note that the policy explicitly allows us to cite primary sources (as long as we do so appropriately and with caution). "Primary" does not equal "bad" ... nor does citing a primary source automatically make a statement OR. So... even if we classify a peer-reviewed scientific paper as "primary", citing it is not OR unless we go beyond what the paper actually says (drawing our own conclusions, interpretation or analysis from it).

Also, citing a secondary source does not automatically make a statement "not OR". It is quite possible to misuse a secondary source in ways that are considered OR (using it to support your own analysis, interpretation or conclusion). In short... Original research is really about whether the statements we write are directly supported by our sources, and not about the classification of those sources. Blueboar (talk) 12:42, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

There are 2 slightly different things that often get confused somewhat here. a) OR by wp editors (which imho the policy primarily deals with b) OR as in brand new (external) research that has not really been accepted or confirmed by the scientific community (at large). You can do b) without violating a), however in many cases we don't want b) in WP either (at least not in the form of reporting it as a "fact"), but wait until it is confirmed or invalidated by other sources.--Kmhkmh (talk) 13:28, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Any given field has hundreds and thousands of papers, with varying results. Choosing one of them over the others is original research. That's why you use critical articles, reviews, meta-reviews, and scholar books that analyze the field. Those sources will tell you which papers were significant and why. --Enric Naval (talk) 15:09, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

No, choosing among reliable published sources is source-based research, which is what Wikipedia editors are supposed to do. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:14, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Choosing between many different sources is what we expect our editors to do. Research papers have always been acceptable sources from the point of view of the NOR policy. If there is a specific issue with some particular article and citation, that has to be resolved on the talk page of that article. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:59, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia aims to reflect the consensus of the papers. The best method of reflecting the consensus of the thousands of papers is by looking at the reviews, meta-reviews and the scholarly books. Choosing a single original research paper and saying it represents the consensus is problematic. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:19, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Quick points:

• WP:MEDRS is relevant.
• This is a content dispute, not a proposal to change this page. Therefore, the question needs to be taken elsewhere.
• WT:MED is a relevant "elsewhere" that you can take it. (Read MEDRS first. People experienced with medicine-related articles are generally not sympathetic to primary [using the hard-science definition, which claims all original experimental work as primary] sources.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:09, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

suggest addition to point out that primary sources such as interviews do count towards notability

Note that an interview with a person about themselves or something notable they have achieved, such as a book they have published or a film they started in, does counts towards notability of them or their works.

To avoid confusion that comes up from time to time in AFDs, even with editors who have been around for years now, I suggest this be added to the article, or something similar. [1] Or just a note saying that nothing on this page had anything to do with notability. Dream Focus 00:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Not always, as it also depends who is doing the interview, in what context, and the like. A fanblog without established reliability but managing to get a good interview is not going to count for notability. On the other hand, a reliable third-party source that has taken the time to interview someone is an indication of notability. --MASEM (t) 00:30, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• This has come up before, but it seems that the problem has yet to be corrected.  It is the attention given by the interviewer to the interviewee that shows that the topic attracts attention.  The interviewee may be an expert in a subject matter about which the comments are secondary.  It is the interviewee speaking about themselves that is primary.  I added the words "(depending on context)" to the Project Page.  Unscintillating (talk) 06:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Instruction creep... notability issues have nothing to do with Original Research. This is an issue for discussion at WP:Notability. That said... Masem and Unscintillating are correct in noting that the issue is more complex... an in-depth interview with the local dog catcher in a small town newspaper does not "count towards" notability. An interview with that same dog catcher in the New York Times might... depending on why the dog catcher was being interviewed. Blueboar (talk) 14:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

  Actually, I think it's the other way around: it's the interviewer, not the interviewee, that matters. If Barbara Walters publishes a long interview with you about your career, then that counts towards notability as a sign that the mainstream media is paying attention to you ("attention from the world at large", to use WP:N's old language). If a student newspaper publishes an interview with you, it doesn't.
  The reason this comes up here is that the GNG demands that only secondary sources be counted. Naturally, since most news stories are primary sources, and since this page defines all interviews (without exception) as being primary, that is awkward for demonstrating notability of current events and the like. I think, though, that the solution needs to be re-defining GNG to accept that we should give some (perhaps only a little) weight to sources that are technically primary, but are also high-quality, independent, and non-self-published. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:14, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• This page contains some footnotes that mention interviews as examples of possible primary sources, but it really depends on who published the interview (both author and publisher) and what else is in the source. A book written by a historian who, in 1990, wrote a comprehensive history of a World War II battle, and included an interview with an officer that the author conducted personally, would have to be considered a secondary source, including the material about the battle contained in the interview. This is because, after reviewing a multitude of primary and secondary sources, the historian decided the interview was worth putting in the book. However, the interview could still be considered a primary source for personal details about the officer that were not verified by the author. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:51, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• I asked this question in relation to the work of Wendy Lowenstein, a widely recognised social historian of Australia who used oral history methodology and published her results as extensive sourcebooks of interviews. RS/N's opinion was that relying on material selected by a historian and contained in a sourcebook is unreliable and original research. However, I would agree that a historian who quoted extensively in a work under their own name (a monograph) would lend their credence and authority to that quote (as long as they didn't rip it to shreds or impugn its account while quoting, ie: as the lying liar Liar Liarson lied, "…"). Fifelfoo (talk) 22:33, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea but in the wrong place. That would be a good change where it belongs, wp:notability. North8000 (talk) 00:32, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Masem hits the nail on the head. If the article is published in the New York Times, it's evidence of notability. If an article is published by a fanzine, that's not evidence of notability. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:51, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Exceptions for primary sources

The policy states that "Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them." Can an article be majorly based on primary sources which have received coverage in tons of news reports from highly reputed newspapers i.e. do reports in loads of reliable secondary sources over-rule the fact that the site is a primary source and can the policy be flexed for that reason? Secret of success (talk) 12:06, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Could you give us more specifics? A lot depends on what the article is about... For example, the "plot summary" section of an article about a book, would be appropriately based entirely on the book itself... but other sections of the article (such as a section on how the book was received) would not. Blueboar (talk) 14:00, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

The policy doesn't really distinguish between primary sources used a lot secondary and those which are used less. But if a primary source is evaluated/analyzed in some secondary source, there is usually no reason to cite primary source at all, but you simply use the secondary source instead.--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:09, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I was specifically referring to box office figures for films, which are without doubt, one of the most sensitive issues across Wikipedia. I have seen articles like this being sourced mostly to primary sources. It has had two AfD's in the past and both of them have resulted in a "keep". Now, I do not want to discuss that specifically, my comment above was more general.

If content from a primary source is put up in a secondary source with attribution and some amount of analysis, does it mean that the secondary source endorses the content? I don't think that is the case, right. Secret of success (talk) 09:13, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

The mere use of a primary source does not necessarily mean the secondary source "approves it", you need to read secondary source to see what it does with the primary source. I was saying if you have secondary sources using a primary source for specific information, then usually you get that specific information you want from the secondary source anyway, hence you don't the primary source anymore and arguing whether you could use or not is a bit of a moot point. As far as box office figures are concerned, I see no problem with citing (standard) primary sources for it, but they should be clearly attributed. However these hinges a bit on the question as how reliable you assess a primary source in the first place and you could consider its general use in secondary sources as one factor (of many) to assess the reliability of the primary source. If BoxOffice.com figures are widely used in media and literature, than you consider that as hint that their data is generally accepted/considered reliable. -Kmhkmh (talk) 09:40, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Fringe, established facts and synthesis

The WP guideline on synthesis may have a major weakness when it comes to attacks by fringe authors on established facts. Image the following: some recent author A makes the obviously ludicrous assertion that Tower Bridge was constructed by 15th century Chinese and he is cited so in the WP article. No other reliable author ever cared to address and refute this statement, hence it remains undisputed' so to speak. Now some editor takes an older book B which states that the bridge was built in the 19th century by the British and adds this statement as a rebuttal. He is, however, reverted on the grounds that this would be synthesis because B did not refer to A explicitly. Consequently, the statement of B is removed as refutation, even though it is an established fact, while A's statement remains in the text as undisputed. Was this right? This case does not seem to have been covered by WP:SYN properly, a kind of loop-hole which favours outlandish and more recent claims. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 15:25, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

That isn't synthesis. That is a source simply being wrong and there being a lack of other sources which is a different problem. An example of synthesis would be 'The Chinese made the earliest iron bridges. Tower Bridge is one of the most famous iron bridges made before the twentieth century'. Dmcq (talk) 17:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

So even though the source isn't discussing Menzies, we can use it? At Where Troy Once Stood this edit[2] of mine was, I think correctly, removed. Can I reinstate it? The actual edit that Gun Power Ma is discussing is [3]. Dougweller (talk) 18:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Who are you replying to? If you could state what you see as the problem in a straightforward way it would help. Personally I can't see why anyone would worry about some fantasy pseudohistory like those but if people have gone out of their way to write refutations I suppose they should be in too. Dmcq (talk) 18:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh no no MEnzies stuff please:-).--Kmhkmh (talk) 18:30, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The point is that none of these sources were written as refutations, they are simply about the same subject. The question seems to be should our policy allow us to use them, even though in these two examples they weren't written in response to the authors' books. Dougweller (talk) 20:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Synthesis is using two or more sources to advance a position not advanced by any of the sources. If all the sources are being considered to support an article, there is no problem with ignoring a fringe source and not mentioning it in the article. It's a different story if the article is about the fringe source. Setting out "facts" purported by the fringe source and listing sources that contradict the fringe source could be viewed as a Wikipedia editor creating a novel review of the fringe source. If no reliable sources can be found to review the fringe source, the article about the fringe source should probably be deleted. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:48, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

SYNTH would be something like "Source A says the Tower Bridge was built by Chinese laborers. Source B says it was built by the British. Therefore (here's the SYNTH part), China and the UK are the same place." When different views exist indifferent sources, simply stating what the different views are is not a SYNTH violation, because yu're not adding up the views to get something entirely new that can't be found in any of the sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:16, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

You don't have to even say the conclusion, just imply it as in my example near the start implying the Chinese built Tower Bridge using two perfectly okay and true statements. Dmcq (talk) 14:29, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Does it matter that these are book reviews? Dougweller (talk) 16:40, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

If they are published in a reliable source like a newspaper of journal I cant see why not and they'd be good secondary sources. Dmcq (talk) 22:37, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

No, it is the articles that are book reviews. The authors of the sources may not even have ever heard of the books in question and they certainly aren't commenting on them. Dougweller (talk) 13:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Sounds very strange, but if a book review has been commented on in a number of other ways in some notable way then I guess so. I suppose someone could write a notable book review if they were very good authors themselves or particularly biting critics who attracted attention or something like that. Dmcq (talk) 13:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Let me try again. There are no book review involved here. We are talking about Wikipedia articles about books, or sections of a biography that discuss a book, where sources are being used that do not mention the book or the author or even the subject of the book and are being used to refute the book. As I understand it, this is not acceptable according to our NOR policy. Dougweller (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you should just point at the discussion on the point that concerns you. Dmcq (talk) 20:30, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I think my answer to the original question is that author B should not be mentioned. However the article should not state what A says as fact, it should only be stated as what A asserted. It is not up to us to write refutations but we don't have to write rubbish up as truth. Dmcq (talk) 20:37, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I agree entirely. Dougweller (talk) 06:02, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Well... I don't believe it's necessary for the "refuting" source to mention the book by name. Let me give an example: some <insert disparaging term here> in Hawaii have come up with this silly theory that breast cancer is caused by wearing bras. They wrote a book about it. Every single mainstream source that addresses the question says that their idea is wrong. Almost none of those sources mention their names or the title of their book. They just say "Hey, if you heard this rumor that clothing causes breast cancer, it's wrong". But we use those sources to present information about their silly idea, because there's really no other way to meet NPOV and FRINGE requirements to present a disproven, tiny-minority position as being a silly, disproven idea.

So I'd say that if New Book says that the Tower Bridge was built by 15th century Chinese, and mainstream experts have a very different idea, then you can safely present the mainstream position as being the mainstream view. You can't say "Alice Expert rejects this book's claim", but you can say "Mainstream expert opinion holds that the bridge was built by British laborers" (or whatever). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:30, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Academic question: Does recognizing something count as OR?

There's a discussion going on at Talk:Blackwater (Game of Thrones) about whether or not certain types of content from primary sources count as original research. I refer to the discussion as academic because there does not seem to be any disagreement (at the moment) about what the text of the article should read. In these cases, the episodes themselves are considered primary sources and off-Wikipedia articles about the episodes are considered secondary sources.

If a work of fiction has a character say, "To be or not to be. That is the question," is it original research for the Wikiarticle to say, "Character Bob Smith quoted part of Shakespeare's Hamlet"? If so, which part of WP:OR covers this?

If a work of fiction has a character hum or sing a song, is it original research for the Wikiarticle to say, "Foghorn Leghorn can be heard humming 'Camptown Races' in the episode 'Fearsome Foghorn'"?

Does it make any difference if the content is well known or obscure? The statement that set off the debate in question was, "Tyrion Lannister can be heard whistling 'The Rains of Castamere' in a previous episode." (This statement was later backed up with a secondary source.)

There seems to be an unspoken consensus that no secondary source is needed to identify characters by their faces ("Bob Smith appears in a scene with John Jones") or to identify words by sound ("Bob Smith says 'Hello, I'm Bobby' to John Jones in the second episode") or to describe events ("Bob Smith can be seen to smack John Jones in the shoulder in the third episode"), and most plot summary sections consist primarily of these kinds of statements. If identifying melodies is different in some way, then which part of WP:OR covers this? Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:45, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

It isn't OR. It is a simple descriptive statement about something that occurs in the work of fiction that a reader can verify by looking at the work of fiction itself.

That said, the fact that the statement isn't OR does not mean we necessarily must (or should) include it. A good plot summary will not include every tiny trivial action made by every character, it will only mention the important ones. So, the next question is... is the fact that the character sings that particular song at that particular point in the plot really worth mentioning in our article? Is this action central to the plot, or is it trivial? Blueboar (talk) 11:43, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that just because it's not OR doesn't mean it merits inclusion; that's a separate issue. The article in question has a small section about music. The song "Rains of Castamere" features rather heavily in the episode, and the article says where the lyrics came from, who wrote the song, and who performs it in the credits. I figured it was relevant to mention that this was not the first time that it appeared in the series. Feel free to see for yourself. The section is quite short.

The guy I've been talking to was pretty adamant that listening to the melody and concluding that it was the same song as another string of pitches was OR. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:10, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't WP:MOSFICT#Plot summaries describe about plots and refer to some essay and help about them? I think it describes the general consensus about this area saying what people agree is about okay as a straight factual description. Dmcq (talk) 13:31, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

New edits to WP:CALC

A recent edit was made in a good faith attempt to clarify WP:CALC (see this diff). I have reverted because I think the edit needs some discussion, especially the idea that pulling numbers from multiple sources is in all cases an improper synthesis - and therefor the numbers need to come from a single source. I am not sure this idea is completely accurate. Suppose I want to calculate the basic land area of the State of Virgina is 1850. We know that, at that time, Virginia included what is today West Virgina, but otherwise its boarders were the same as today. Now, suppose I have a source that gives me the modern area of Virginia, and another source that gives me the area of modern West Virginia... simple addition will give me the area of 1850 Virgina. This is exactly the sort of basic calculation that CALC was intended to allow. However, the edit would disallow it. Blueboar (talk) 11:48, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I think that as long as its clear what the units/scale are and how absolute/unquestionable they are. Take an example where I attempt to add 1 million homes with Tivo boxes and 2 million homes with DVRs (from two different sources) and attempt to say that a total of 3 million homes have some type of digital recorder. The problem is that Tivo is a type of DVR and unless source 2 is clear that they didn't count Tivo in their DVR #s, then that 3 million may be double counting. --MASEM (t) 12:51, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

My guess is this is to counter the business where editors agree a calculation is okay in consensus but the calculation is not some standard one for the application. There was quite a row over various editor own calculations in the articles on usage share of web browsers and operating systems putting in a median of the various figures published by outside agencies. The articles no longer have the median figures they calculated so it doesn't look like the change is necessary for that purpose, and I'm not altogether sure the ones pushing the calculation in would have agreed with the interpretation even so anyway as they were arguing that what they did was useful and a fairly standard technique. Dmcq (talk) 12:58, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The edit would often disallow presenting material in the same units of measure so that numbers in the article could easily be compared. For example, if an article discussed energy usage, home-heating sources might give energy usage in therms and barrels of oil, and electricity-related sources might use kilowatt hours. To make these diverse units comparable, the article might use megajoules. The conversion factors might be found in a different source from the sources that give the energy usage figures. So under the proposed change the unit conversions would be disallowed. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:40, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I think we all agree that it certainly is possible to create an improper calculation by taking numbers from multiple sources... I hope that we all agree that it is also possible to create an absolutely appropriate calculation by taking numbers from multiple sources. My concern about the edit was that it went too far... phrasing what probably should be a "sometimes" caution as if it were an "always" rule. WP:CALC is one of those things where we simply can not make an "always" rule ... Ultimately, we have to examine each calculation on a case-by-case basis and determine whether that specific calculation is proper or improper. Blueboar (talk) 13:52, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I would go along with Blueboar. In essence, the paragraph that was reverted didn't add anything to the article. A note describing the pitfalls of using numeric data from multiple sources might be more appropriate, but as an essay, not as part of this partiuclar article. Martinvl (talk) 14:23, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I am the one who made the bold edit. It was an attempt to avoid situations like the one Dmcq was referring to. I do not agree that the edit would in any way disallow presenting material in the same units of measure as other sources. Converting units of measure of one source is clearly just a single source calculation and does not involve multiple sources, even if the goal of the calculation is to converts numbers from multiple sources into comparable units. I agree that there are some calculations which are relevant across multiple sources. But if they are relevant, surely the editors should be able to find a source which supports that calculation. That was the reason why I put in the phrase about a source directly supporting the calculation involving the sources. Useerup (talk) 16:34, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, let me give you an example, and you tell me whether this is improper OR in your mind:

• Source 1 says that 100,000 white Americans will get Scary Disease this year.
• Source 2 says that 100,000 non-white Americans will get Scary Disease this year.
• I add it up and say that 200,000 Americans will get Scary Disease this year.

Is that okay in your mind? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:34, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The proposed change disallows unit conversions unless the conversion factor is contained in the same source as the unit to be converted. I reject Useerup's claim to the contrary. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:03, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: Yes, that is OR. Even though you used perfectly complementary concepts (white and non-whites) it is not at all clear that the sources could be used that way. Rarely are multiple sources directly comparable that way. The sources could use different standards for accepting a diagnose or use different standards for "Americans" (native, immigrants, natural born or naturalized?, North Americans or just US citizens). In those situations you do *not* add up the numbers, you report on each of the sources. Useerup (talk) 01:01, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Would you feel the same if the example was "males" and "females" or "adults" and "children" rather than race? What if the sources were actually papers published by the same people, just split up so they could get two publications on their CVs?

Also, do you think that the typical editor would object to my example? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:20, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

If the papers were published by the same people I would assume that they would reference one paper from the other. That would actually open the door for combining over multiple sources. If the 1st paper was referenced from the 2nd paper in such a way as to compare them or include the conclusions it opens the door for calculations. But think about the opposite: What if two papers were written by the same people, but did not reference each other. Would you then be comfortable drawing conclusions by calculating numbers across the papers, given that it would have been obvious to the authors? Useerup (talk) 06:56, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

@Jc3s5h: Can you propose a change which would in your opinion allow unit conversions? I certainly agree that unit conversions should be considered allowed under the policy; they are (usually) non-controversial and straightforward. Useerup (talk) 01:01, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the policy was fine before the edit. When doing calculations involving different sources (or even different pages within the same source) it is important to make sure one is comparing apples to apples, but I don't think there is any concise formulation that will disallow the incorrect calculations and allow the correct calculation. But a service that an encyclopedia should perform for its readers is to collect information from diverse specialized sources and present an overview that is easier to quickly understand, and this requires activities such as unit conversion and other calculations so that data from diverse sources is more readily comparable. Of course there will be times when the exact nature of the data in various sources is not clearly enough stated to decide if data may be combined, in which case some other approach will be needed. But I think this should be looked at on a case-by-case basis on each article talk page. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:55, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Is simple logic a SYNTH ?

1. If one reliable source say A:X->Y and an other reliable source say B:Y->Z, is the obvious conclusion C:X->Y->Z or C:X->Z a synth?

2. If one reliable source say A:Y happen when X is happen, and an other reliable source say B:Z happen when Y happen, is the obvious conclusion C:Z happen when X happen a synth?

I saw "SYNTH is not explanation - SYNTH is when two or more reliably-sourced statements are combined to produce a new thesis that isn't verifiable from the sources. If you're just explaining the same material in a different way, there's no new thesis".

79.182.215.205 (talk) 23:58, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Very very few sources meet the specification requirements of the logic you're using. It is usually SYNTHetic and Original Research for an editor to determine that Y(a) = Y(b). Fifelfoo (talk) 05:56, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

In A:X->Y, in B:Y->Z you only have Y in common. Then you derive X->Z which does not mention Y. Aside from it probably being synthesis I'd wonder what the topic was, it would need to cover at least two of X, Y and Z. And why hasn't somebody else pointed out this obvious bit about the topic - so what would be the weight? And without weight why would you be putting it in? Dmcq (talk) 07:13, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Fifelfoo, Y(first source)=Y(second source)

Dmcq, because there are many (things)->Y, where X is only one such (thing). Thus researchers of Y->Z are not interested in what (thing) caused Y. They are just interested in investigating if Y->Z.

79.182.215.205 (talk) 08:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I guess from that the topic involves X and X implies Y but that Y implies Z does not explicitly involve X. Then yes it is synthesis. And if it was any sort of mentionable weight they would have figured that out without needing editors on Wikipedia to do that for them and we'd have a citation pointing out the connection between X and Z. Dmcq (talk) 08:12, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

There are very few reliable sources about Y->Z, maybe because it is a lengthy experiment. One primary source though did state the conclusion X->Z, however, I understand that primary sources are not accepted.

It is true that Y->Z does not explicitly involve X. Suppose there are X->Y, X2->Y, X3->Y. So Y could be the result of X,X2, or X3. But why does it matter?

79.182.215.205 (talk) 08:19, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

It matters because Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and is in the business of summarizing what people have said. They haven't said X implies Z. That is original research. That's not Wikipedia's job. We should be approaching the inclusion of stuff in Wikipedia with a neutral point of view and putting in the stuff that has some weight. Reliable sources are what give weight. Editors own conclusions have no weight. If an editor wants to popularize their ideas then they should do it outside Wikipedia and then eventually perhaps they might gain enough weight to be included. Dmcq (talk) 09:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

IP User 79.182 Y(a:Communism) almost never equals Y(b:Communism). You'll find that in actual writing, almost no terms are defined consistently between sources; such that any attempt to use syllogistic logic in the real world will fail, as sources do not use identical definitions of terms. Fifelfoo (talk) 08:24, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

This editor (79.182) is engaged in a debate about X-ray computed tomography, and has been forum shopping on WT:MED and now here about how to circumvent rules about original research. JFW | T@lk 08:34, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Medicine is an area where we have to be especially careful not to start putting in synthesis. Apart from the general policy medicine is just rife with examples where one needs to check things are really so rather than applying logic, never mind anything about possible real life consequences. Dmcq (talk) 09:11, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq,JFW, your reference to other discussions is off topic here in this theoretical discussion, which may or may not be related. Please remove these off topic comments.

Fifelfoo, In this case lets assume it is possible it is evident that both Ys are the same.

Dmcq, I understand that Wikipedia summarize what other people say, and other people say X->Y and Y->Z (and even X->Z in a primary source). In the article there is a discussion about stuff=(?) such that Y->(?) and stating there (?)=Z based on sources indicating Y->Z seem to me appropriate, and on topic.

79.182.215.205 (talk) 10:21, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

What's the problem with the X->Z primary source? Dmcq (talk) 10:29, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq, other editors indicated that they want only a review from the best of journals, I think.

79.182.215.205 (talk) 10:39, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd guess because the other citations in the article are of about that WP:WEIGHT. That's more of judgement call but mixing things that are properly reviewed along with results in a primary source that people haven't commented on can certainly be problematic. User's own conclusions with SYNTH have much lower weight than that!, so the primary source would be a far better one to look at, maybe someone has talked about it? Dmcq (talk) 10:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Why is this generating this much text? It's clearly synthesis. Taemyr (talk) 11:44, 19 June 2012 (UTC)