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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved – no consensus — ækTalk 06:56, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Glossolalia → Speaking in tongues — per WP:NC, article title should be the most commonly used and recognized, for which readers are most likely to look, and to which editors will most naturally link. Ἀλήθεια 19:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I oppose reversing the current redirect. There doubtlessly are some populations (denominations?) where "speaking in tongues" is the more common usage, but it does not appear to be predominant in reliable sources overall. Of (distinct) titles in the article's current References section, 12 use "glossolalia", 3 use "speaking in tongues", and 4 use the word "tongues" alone or in other phrases. (One is counted twice because it uses both, and one is ommitted because it is just a wiki.) GoogleBooks lists 248 titles using "glosolalia" vs. 200 using "speaking in tongues"; and GoogleScholar lists 310 titles using "glossolalia" vs. 283 using "speaking in tongues". ~ Ningauble (talk) 20:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Take out your "allintitle" qualifier, and you'll find exactly the opposite. Note, also, that these searches don't account for variations such as "speak in tongues" and simply "tongues". 2,046 tongues vs. 1,660 glossolalia in books and 10,700 tongues vs. 5,350 glossolalia in scholar. While the titles qualifier gives a slight edge to the more erudite and pedantic term, regular usage shows a huge margin in favor of the common and more understandable term. Accessibility should prevail in this argument. Ἀλήθεια 21:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      I am sorry that, having solicited opinions with a {{movereq}} tag, you consider it argumentative for someone to offer one. At the risk of seeming even more argumentative, I would like to offer a clarification of my thinking about titles, and a point of information about Google searches. This is all I have to say – opinion solicited, opinion offered. Hopefully some other editors will share their insights on the question as well.
      (1) I think it appropriate in choosing a title to use what is chosen more often in titles of reliable sources. I think it not unduly pedantic for an encyclopedia addressing the topic to follow the lead of others who set out to address the topic. Note also that the subject index for GoogleBooks lists 560 titles under "glossolalia" but has no entry for "speaking in tongues", which more or less reflects their findings on library cataloguing data. Other nomenclatures are indeed also common, so it is felicitous to provide accessibility via redirects, which is even better than library catalogue cross-references.
      (2) Bear in mind that Google's initial estimates of hits are quite rough, and tend to grossly overcount. Looking at mentions, not just titles, GoogleBooks reports quite comparable actual hits, but these tend to undercount due to idiosyncrasies described in the above linked article. ~ Ningauble (talk) 20:10, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Counter-point (not to sound argumentative) - on the first page of hits in the aforementioned subject search, here's the usage count: tongue/tongues = 6, glossolalia = 2. The second page is similar 5 vs. 2, and the third is 6 vs. 3. So even here, the predominant usage remains tongues or speaking in tongues, not glossolalia.
  • Oppose: Ningauble's research is persuasive; glossolalia seems to be at least as common use in reliable sources. Knepflerle (talk) 00:39, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Glossolalia is the standard way to refer to this, and Speaking in tongues already redirects properly. The latter is also dialectical; it's in "regular" usage only in some communities. Whereas "glossolalia" is an international scientific term. Sai Emrys ¿?✍ 18:58, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Terence McKenna

Anyone has any reference to McKenna talking about Glossolalia in one of his books? Twipley (talk) 15:54, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

small edit

I removed a portion that stated "shunda" and its equivalents "shindar", "shinda", etc. were universal in the tongue-speaking world. A closer inspection of the source says the contrary (find it by searching 'tikitiki'). Whoever originally posted it misread the second half of the sentence, I suppose. There's also no mentions of conjugations of the word, so I have no idea where they made that up =/ . Here's the original source they...'used': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia#cite_note-kavan-17 . --a guest —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.196.188.66 (talk) 03:12, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect Definition

This article is rather disturbing to me, in the fact that the definition of "speaking in tongues" it gives, although maybe accepted by a large community, is completely different from the definition used in the bible. A tongue, in the bible, has meant "language," and as it describes in 1 Cor. 14 (Annotated KJV), as men from different countries spoke with one another and understood one another; it isn't unintelligible babble, but that the men were speaking in more language than once, so people could speak a language they did not know, while simultaneously speaking their own. This leads me to believe that much of this "modern interpretation" is completely wrong, except for maybe the psychoanalysis part. --64.136.202.74 (talk) 02:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC) (not logged in, actual wiki id: inthend9)[reply]

(Response to the above) Speaking in tongues also refers to prayer to God with words inspired by the Holy Spirit, not understood by the one praying, or by others, unless interpreted by the inspiration of the Spirit. (1 Cor 12:10, 14:1-5 (& the rest of the chapter)) The language may be human or angelic. (1 Cor 13:1)
On the day of Pentecost, the disciples were Spirit-inspired to praise God in known human languages which they had not learned. (Acts 2:4 "as the Spirit enabled them." NIV)
As for "modern interpretation", the Gospel of Christ has never changed. (I can give you a whole long list of scriptures to back that up if you want.)
The only way you can guarantee to get a true understanding of scripture is to read it in prayer, crying out to the Lord for wisdom, knowledge and understanding (Proverbs 2:1-6), listening to the Lord and letting Him teach you (Exodus 15:26 &c &c). And of course, putting the gospel into practice. Then you will understand the Bible a million times better than any theologian ever has, or ever will. (Matthew 11:25,26, 1 John 2:26,27, &c &c)
(Note to Wikipedia moderators: Please forgive me if this is beyond what is appropriate for even a discussion page, but the person I'm responding to seemed to need reassurance, and I can't see how to send them a personal message.) Darkman101 (talk) 21:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning the Requested Move: I want to vote in favour

(I may be late, but I have only just come across this page.)

The term: "Speaking in Tongues" is the term generally used by:

(1) Those who do it, (2) Those who argue against it, (3) The vast majority of the population who have any reason to want to know anything about it.

The term: "Glossolalia" is generally only used by theologians and (allegedly) scientific researchers.

Most ordinary people would have absolutely no idea what "Glossolalia" means.

I propose we go with the people on this one. That's who Wikipedia is for.

(Just in case anyone wants to know: Yes, I'm a plain ordinary bog-standard Christian who does it.) Darkman101 (talk) 21:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Glossolalia exists in non-Christian contexts too, though. I believe "glossolalia" is used because it's more culturally neutral whereas the term "(speaking in) tongues" is mostly used by Christians. —Soap— 22:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Try looking at the other language wiki's. 84.106.101.44 (talk) 16:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Audio

This article needs audio samples to illustrate the practice of glossolia. Else, it is too windy.Sindhbadh (talk) 08:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In Anime

Has this shown up in anime? I think wikipedia should discuss Glossolalia in Anime. --86.148.74.171 (talk) 14:27, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you're serious, then you could do that: find reliable sources, create a new section above "See Also" called "In the media", and describe and cite your reliable source in that section. You don't have to do it perfectly - but good enough that people take it seriously and improve it, rather than delete it. "In the media" sections do tend to survive pretty well though.-Tesseract2(talk) 16:24, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Non-religious study and interpretation

All of the information I have been able to find about this topic focuses on religion or spiritual aspects of the event. What about when it occurs in people without any religious context?

-Is there a seperate term for that?

-Many definitions mention a "trance-like state" - what about when a person doesn't "trance", just suddenly shifts into an alternative verbal pattern without any accompanying physical/emotional/situational change?

-Have there been any studies done of the behavior without it being in a faith-invoked/involved setting?

- Are there currently any studies being done that do not involve a religious element?144.124.243.172 (talk) 01:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC) ←[reply]

I'm not aware of any. But just to clarify, within Pentecostal and charismatic Christianity, speaking in tongues is not dependent on any "trance-like state". It can be done at will and is understood as the person yielding his or her vocal chords to speak whatever the spirit desires to be spoken. The content of the utterance is spontaneous, one doesn't determine what one says, but the timing is not necessarily spontaneous and no ecstatic emotional state is required. Ltwin (talk) 22:14, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are indeed people who can do this voluntarily with no religious connotation to it whatsoever (I know at least one personally). If anyone can find some studies or source material covering non-religious glossolalia, please add it; it would be much appreciated. 192.54.250.11 (talk) 20:58, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Citation removal

I removed the following footnote cited in several places in the article: "Personal Interview with Deborah Cox. Professor of Writing about the Bible as Literature. 4 May 2009. Lonestar College Library. Conroe, Texas, 77384[verification needed]". Wikipedia's guidelines on No original research is clear. Since "personal interviews" are not published, they are not verifiable. Ltwin (talk) 01:35, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking in tongues or with tongues ?

The OED seems to show the latter preposition is the standard. Why then the most frequent preposition in the phrase in the article is "in" ?

c.II.8.c The knowledge or use of a language. Esp. in phrases gift of tongues, to speak with a tongue (tongues), in reference to the Pentecostal miracle and the miraculous gift in the early Church; also simply tongues (pl. in collect. sense).

   1526 Tindale [see 2 a].    ― 1 Cor. xii. 30 Do all speake with tonges?    Ibid. xiii. 8 Though that prophesyinge fayle, other tonges shall cease, or knowledge vanysshe awaye.    1533 Gau Richt Vay 48 The halie spreit‥gaif to thayme ye gift to speik with al twngis.    1538 Cromwell in Merriman Life & Lett. (1902) II. 144 Ioynyng wyth you Maister Mason‥to declare your purpose for that having the tongue he may doo‥it more fully thenne you could percace easly vtter the same.    1593 R. Harvey Philad. 3 Neither can you proue that hee had not wealth enough to serue his vses, or tongue enough in euery place of his trauell.    a 1637 B. Jonson Underwoods, Execration upon Vulcan 75 Their‥bright stone that brings Invisibility, and strength, and tongues.    1879 Farrar St. Paul I. 96 The glossolalia or ‘speaking with a tongue’, is connected with ‘prophesying’, that is, exalted preaching.   1965 Sunday Mail (Brisbane) 5 Dec. 31/5 Some parishioners have complained to the Diocesan authorities‥about Mr. Schofield's interest in speaking with tongues.    1972 S. Tugwell Did you receive Spirit? v. 40 Some manifestation, usually tongues, is generally expected; indeed, strict Pentecostals demand it.    1976 Church Times 5 Mar. 14/2 Tongues is a personal and devotional gift as opposed to the others, which are intended to help people. 

9.II.9 transf. in biblical use: A people or nation having a language of their own. Usually in plural: all tongues, people of every tongue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.121.155.250 (talk) 17:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction neutrality

The introduction gives one definition as the most correct, when later in the article there are many given. Plasmic Physics (talk) 21:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you be more specific please? Ltwin (talk) 01:46, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In the lead, it is stated that glossolalia is incomprehensible babble (paraphrasing), while later in the article it is indicated that there are various definitions, by various religious groups. The lead is favouring one group's view over the various others. Plasmic Physics (talk) 06:57, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, part of the problem is that the article is about Glossolalia, which is the preferred scholarly term for speaking gibberish, sometimes in ritual contexts. However, Speaking in tongues also redirects here. Depending on what kind of Christian you are, "speaking in tongues" can be either glossolalia or xenoglossia which is miraculously speaking foreign languages. So, the definition in the lead is correct. Glossolalia is gibberish to observers (though it holds religious importance to the speaker). However, if you talk about glossolalia in Christianity you can't avoid getting into the discussion about what exactly is the spiritual gift known as speaking in tongues.
The lead should not create multiple definitions for glossolalia, there is no scientific proof that it is actual language. However, what we do need to do is expand the lead to better summarize the entire article as it exists currently, which means we would have to explain that there is disagreement among Christians whether the "gift" of speaking in tongues was glossolalia or xenoglossy. Ltwin (talk) 14:14, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be appropriate to present the tradition on the phenomena of glossolalia in the Eastern Christian perspective?

I was raised in Russian Orthodoxy, & when I stumbled to this page, I was surprised that the term glossolalia is in the Greek, as opposed to the more frequently used form „speaking in tongues.“ The occurrence could be read in the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 2. Which made me wondered, „Why is not the Greek Christian or any other Eastern Church have a section on this page?“ So I accompanied the matter with some research, & I did find some interesting perspectives about the speaking in tongues from Orthodox sources. Here are a few that I found reliable to start a section:

Here are some blogs that cover the subject:

Here is an extensive sermon [video on the website YouTube,] which I am not sure is reliable but dœs cover the perspective:

A podcast:

Thank you for your time reading my question, I hope & am seeing into the construction of an Orthodox perspective section. 序名三「Jyonasan」 TalkStalk 04:13, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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