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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 74.69.121.132 (talk) at 21:27, 27 May 2013. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Continual POV reversions of his birthname

Prince Philip's birthname was clearly Philippos - he was christened as such in Corfu. The latest reversion uses the official british royal family website as its primary source, which obviously thinks it has a vested interest in anglicising his original name ( which is fairly silly and unecessary). This change should be reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.149.27.170 (talk • contribs)

This isn't a neutrality or bias issue. The sources say Philip. His mother was British and St George's Church was built for the British garrison, so a British spelling is not unexpected. DrKiernan (talk) 14:06, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, his mother wasn't British, that's ridiculous. She was a Greek and Danish subject, of German family background born to two 100% German parents, and had in fact no English background whatsoever. If I am vacationing in France, and happen to have a baby there, who later moves to Greece adopting Greek citizenship, that child isn't French, neither by citizenship nor by ancestry. Josh Gorand (talk) 21:18, 16 August 2012 (UTC) Obviously it's correct that his birth name is Philippos. Philip is merely a translation into English, not the original name. On the other hand, Philip would also be a common Danish and German version of the Greek name Philippos, so he was probably referred to as Philip from birth too in Denmark as a Prince of Denmark holding the style of Highness. But his membership in the Greek royal family is more important, as he was born in Greece to the main line of the Royal family there and was only a member of a very junior branch of the Danish royal family, didn't live in Denmark and doesn't even speak Danish. Josh Gorand (talk) 21:23, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, his mother was a British subject born to two British subjects. Her father was a naturalised British subject from the age of 14, while her mother was born in Britain to a British mother. DrKiernan (talk) 04:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense, both his parents were Greek subjects at the time of his birth. Greek, not British. None of his parents had any English ancestry whatsoever, but were 100% German. Whether his Greek citizen German ancestry mother had previously, before his birth, held a British citizenship (in addition to that of her native country, the Grand Duchy of Hesse) is irrelevant. Prince Philip was born in Greece to Greek citizens, that's the citizenship part, and to parents of more or less exclusively German ethnicity, that's the ethnicity part. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alice of Battenberg's mother, Princess Victoria of Hesse and by Rhine (let me reiterate: of Hesse) was German, both as a member of the royal family of a German state and by ethnicity. Not British in any way. Her mother wasn't British at all, but was born to a German father and a German-origined mother who had no British ancestry whatsoever. The fact that the German-origined, native German speaker Victoria (who was also born a Princess of the Kingdom of Hanover) was Empress of India doesn't make her "Indian" either, that's ridiculous. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Victoria Mountbatten was the British-born wife of a naturalised Briton who was also a British peer. Her mother and grandmother were both born in Britain. Queen Victoria was not a native German speaker and both her father and her grandfather were born in Britain. In fact, her grandfather spent his entire life without exception in Southern England within 100 miles of London. If the title "Empress of India" does not make you Indian, then the title "Princess of Hesse" does not make you Hessian. (Nor, I admit, does the title "Marchioness of Milford Haven" make you Welsh.) You are not going to get consensus to bias the article by either introducing prejudice or removing balance. DrKiernan (talk) 17:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The only one biasing the article and pushing your very odd interpretation of reality is you, and you will not get any consensus. I welcome you to read up at least a little on the issues you are taking part in a discussion of. Queen Victoria spoke nothing but German until the age of three. Her mother was a native German speaker too. She had no English blood whatsoever, she was merely born in England to an exclusively German family, or what would nowadays be described in terms similar to those used for Pakistani immigrant families. She was a member from birth of the royal family of a German state, the Kingdom of Hanover, and hence its subject. Queen Victoria is at best comparable to Sayeeda Warsi, Baroness Warsi; noone would claim her to be of English ancestry or English-origined. Similarly would noone claim Victoria to be of Indian origin merely because she ruled that country. In the case of Prince Philip, his family background is more or less exclusively German, all his sisters married Germans, he was brought up in that country, and almost every single of his ancestors were Germans. His main ties were to Greece, Denmark and Germany, and any relation to Britain was tangential at best. Josh Gorand (talk) 03:19, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note that I consistently oppose national biases and centrism in articles and elsewhere, and abusing the lead section to highlight one who one of his 16 great-great-grandparents were while ommitting his equally important paternal grandfather is absurd and unencyclopedic, especially as that particular sentence was concerning his own house and his paternal grandfather, a reigning king, was a member of that house. Among his great-great-grandparents, Victoria is no more important than e.g. Nicholas I of Russia. Also, Philip doesn't have any British "ancestry" as you claim, in terms of ancestry he hardly has anything but German ancestry and some very distant Russian. Josh Gorand (talk) 03:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're wrong again. Elizabeth Longford and Cecil Woodham-Smith say in their biographies of Queen Victoria that she only spoke English at home. She was taught German in formal lessons as an older girl. Victoria herself wrote that she was forbidden to speak German outside of the classroom.
Philip was not brought up in Germany. His maternal grandparents were British. You are ill-informed and prejudiced. DrKiernan (talk) 06:50, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You are certainly ill informed. Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark lived with his sisters in Germany and attended a German school for parts of his childhood. He spent time in several other countries too. His maternal grandparents were Germans living in England, just like Baroness Warsi was born to a Pakistani immigrant family. His maternal grandmother was both a member of a German royal family and spent her entire childhood in Germany and married in Germany, so she wasn't British in any other way than moving there and living there as an adult. I have been living in London too for professional reasons, but claiming I'm British for that reason would be ridiculous. His maternal grandfather is described as a "German prince" in his article, not British, was born in what was then considered Germany and in principle no different from a Pakistani immigrant to Britain today. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:25, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Being "ethnically English" is a crock anyway. There's no such thing, certainly not to the point where you can talk about "English blood" being distinct from "German blood." The kind of arguments people make to claim that the British royal family is not British would be considered outrageously racist if made in any other context. john k (talk) 07:31, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Racism is only relevant to the discussion when explaining why some people are trying to deny the national background of the royal family, i.e. racist/nationalist sentiment during the First World War. For almost the entire time Prince Philip's German grandfather spent in the UK, noone denied he was German, probably noone denied it during his lifetime at all. In most cases, people have no problems with the fact that someone living in a country can a different national background, e.g. be a Russian-born person or a person of Russian family background living in the UK, or a person of Pakistani background. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:38, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No one's denying Philip's "national background". You've thus far failed to persuade folks here that your desired change would accurately reflect his background and appropriately assign it due weight. Please continue to discuss the matter here until consensus for your desired changes is achieved, rather than unilaterally editing the article absent such consensus. FactStraight (talk) 10:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome to Wikipedia. Understand that editing on Wikipedia is not pre-censored, especially not by yourself, and that this discussion doesn't concern any particular content dispute. Also, do not remove sourced and relevant contents without reason. Josh Gorand (talk) 11:21, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The edits to this page section and to the article, as explained in the summaries, reflect a consensus that Philip's German ancestry not be emphasized in the lede. Yet you continue to re-insert that emphasis, violating 3RR to do so, despite being repeatedly asked to obtain consensus here before attempting such edits again and despite being warned of the danger of violating 3RR to do so. Please desist disruptive edits, and work here toward consensus. FactStraight (talk) 11:50, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You continue to make nonsensical claims about a discussion unrelated to various edits you and only you oppose for unclear reasons. Please refrain from disruptive editing and edit warring that you have initiated. Josh Gorand (talk) 11:59, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've read through this discussion and it really is both ridiculous and amusing. It is a completely hopeless argument to get into the old chestnut of the British Royal Family being 'German' and not 'British' or 'English'. Please remember people that in the context being 'English' the English were originally a Germanic race from Northern Germany (ironically not far from Hanover) and the English language itself has it's roots deeply embedded in the early German language. By inviting the Electress of Hanover and her descendants to the British throne the British Government played a very neat trick in not only preserving the Protestant Ascendancy in Great Britain but had reverted to a German bloodstock that was essentially more 'English' than anything that had gone before since the demise of the House of Wessex in 1066. Within the context of the discussion it would be best to remember the basic realities that 'Germany' is ethnically, linguistically and historically our cousins and to say otherwise is ridiculous. Certainly the suggestion that Queen Victoria was not British is even more ridiculous, really Josh Gorand you will not achieve consensus by coming out with complete rubbish like that.Ds1994 (talk) 08:45, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The 'primary source' is a biased one for very obvious and understandable reasons. The proof that this is untrue is in the title taken by the current son of the exiled king constantine of greece  ; prince philippos of greece and denmark. This is the same name and title that Philip was born with as heir to the Greek throne then, and no amount of wishful thinking will change the procession of names and titles taken by the family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.149.27.170 (talk • contribs)

The sources are clear. DrKiernan (talk) 15:07, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

photo

Perhaps a more current photo of the Duke is in order. He is 91. The current photo on his page shows him as a much younger man. It does not do any service to give the impression he looks like a 71 year old; he is not, and I'm sure even he would agree. The Queen, Prince of Wales, Princess of Wales (Camilla), William and Catherine all have more recent photographs on their pages; the Queen's consort deserves the same. 74.69.126.89 (talk) 13:45, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh/Archive 6#Photo for similar discussion. DrKiernan (talk) 12:16, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Battenberg/Mountbatten

I think there needs to be some explanation of Mountbatten. Currently, there's a switch between Battenberg and Mountbatten that is never explained. At one point in the article it says his mother's family are the Battenbergs, and then elsewhere it says they're the Mountbattens. DrKiernan (talk) 11:32, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you are the one removing the initial explanation of the name Battenberg/Mountbatten and even the link to the Battenberg family, while the article goes on about his grandfather's naval career in a very nationalist out of context portrayal of the whole issue. If Philip had not taken the name Mountbatten, an explanation of his grandfather's name would not be necessary here. As he took that name, the name should be explained. Mary of Teck also opposed this being the name of the royal house in the 1950s because of the Battenberg family's morganatic background. Josh Gorand (talk) 11:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You removed the explanation of the name[1]. But this looks like it was a misunderstanding or mistake on your part. I only undid your edits introducing the Battenberg family because FactStraight disagreed with them, and per WP:BRD rather than revert him you should have gone to discussion. I think everyone is agreed that there should be some explanation of the name; the question is over what shape that explanation should take.
On the career, the naval career is related to Philip's own career choice, so I think it should be mentioned, but I'm happy to trim out words like "distinguished". DrKiernan (talk) 11:50, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
FactStraight's edit-warring is obviously both disruptive and unjustified. There is no reason not to have a link to the Battenberg family when discussing—the Battenberg family. The user in question needs to familiarise himself with how things work here, specifically with the fact that he doesn't get to pre-censor work on articles. He offers as a rationale for his edit-warring now an agenda to remove Prince Philip's "German ancestry", such POV pushing will obviously be reverted. Josh Gorand (talk) 12:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The early life section currently includes this description of his grandfather

Shortly after Philip's birth, his maternal grandfather, Prince Louis of Battenberg then known as Louis Mountbatten, Marquess of Milford Haven, died in London. Louis was a naturalised British citizen, who, after a career in the Royal Navy, had renounced his German titles and adopted the surname Mountbatten during the First World War.

What the sentence completely fails to do is to mention the origin of that name, that Philip would take later in life, including providing a link to the existing article on the Battenberg family. The article should also mention the family being a morganatic branch of the House of Hesse-Darmstadt, as this was something that influenced developments following Philip's marriage, such as the opposition (from Mary of Teck) to Mountbatten becoming the name of the royal house in the 50s.

Regarding his grandfather, the portrayal here is somewhat tendentious. While it is true that he had a "career in the Royal Navy" and "adopted the surname Mountbatten", it is also true that he (famously) had to end that career due to anti-German sentiment and was perceived as German in the United Kingdom during his entire career, and that he only changed his name late in life, after ending his public career, at the urging of the King, along with other relatives and during a period of intense anti-German sentiment, "to protect his family from anti-German bias" as one source puts it, not as some sort of personal decision. This is the necessary context to understand why Battenberg became Mountbatten. Josh Gorand (talk) 15:39, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really see, as yet, why events that happened years before Philip was born are relevant to this article. I think it's reasonable to restrict the explanation of the name and his grandfather's career to the bare minimum here. We need to know that Philip's grandfather and uncle were in the Royal Navy, and we need to know that Battenberg became Mountbatten, but other than that I'm not convinced that we need to expand on the events of the First World War. I'm not saying I'm especially opposed to it if there is a broader consensus to include it, and I'm prepared to consider other, more convincing, arguments. But at present, I'm not seeing a convincing argument, or a broad consensus. DrKiernan (talk) 16:09, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If we don't need "events that happened years before Philip was born", then we can remove his grandfather's naval career that in its entirety happened "years before Philip was born" too. We can also remove material such as "Her father was the second son of King George V and Queen Mary, and her mother was the youngest daughter of Scottish aristocrat Claude Bowes-Lyon, 14th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne" from Elizabeth II's article, as this happened years before she was born. Not having a link to the existing article on the family whose name Philip took is just plain ridiculous and unacceptable. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:21, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Mountbatten is linked in the lead (and a footnote in the infobox). There is a link to Battenberg family but it's buried in the Arms section behind a pipe. DrKiernan (talk) 16:57, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

House of Windsor category?

Should this article be in the House of Windsor category? I know that all his children are in the House of Windsor, but as far as I know he isn't. The way I understand it, wives of male members of the House of Windsor become part of the house by marriage, but husbands of female members do not. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Spock of Vulcan (talk) 02:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

the Duke's religion

It's not mentioned in the sidebox that he is Church of England and Greek Orthodox. It should be "prev. Greek Orthodox", since officially he's Anglican, though it's believed he's not nearly as devout as the Queen and he has made pilgrimages to Greek Orthodox churches and monasteries. 74.69.11.229 (talk) 16:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Has this miserable old fart kicked off yet?

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