Talk:Ali

Note

It was Abu Bakr, who dispatched Ali to participate during the Ridda wars against the forces of Tulayha, a self-proclaimed prophet in July 632.

This discredits some Shea sources that claim, Ali did not give his oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr until some time after the death of his wife, Fatimah in the year 633.

Images for the article

I have found (and in some cases uploaded) some historical images of Ali, which could be used to illustrate the article. Before adding them to the article, I'm starting this discussion to get the opinion of other editors on the matter of which ones, if any, could improve the article if included.

Here are some of the potentially encyclopedic images (mostly ancient miniatures):

• 
  Ali Receiving the Bay'a (Swearing of Allegiance)
• 
  Imam Ali and his children
• 
  Ali with Hasan and Husayn
• 
  Imam Ali and his sons, Hassan and Hossein
• 
  The Imam 'ali
• 
  Imam 'Ali with Hasan and Husayn
• 
  Imam Ali and Hamza in the battle of Badr

More can be found in the commons category for Ali.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 21:21, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

How do you know that these images are of Ali? Who was the artist? How do you know that the artist lived 1400 years ago, at the time of Ali to have captured his image? Where did the artist meet Ali? What museum are these images in and have they been carbon dated to 1400 years ago? What book written 1400 years ago says that these are the images of Ali? What is the copyright on the images ? I was under the impression, as were many other people that Ali was against people making images of him as was Muhammad. Unless it could be proven that these are 1400 years old and are of Ali, putting images like this on wikipedia will make people think that Ali looked like this and that these images are original images of Ali. Looking at these images, Ali looks different in each image. The style of Artwork of some appears like it is from Iran or India from the 1600s. Other look even more recent. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

We do not need to verify that the artists were alive while Ali was. Nor do we need to verify that they are an "accurate" depiction of him. What we do need to verify is that a substantial and/or influential group of people believe these to be images of Ali. For example, if one of these were hanging in a relevant art gallery somewhere, and a reliable curator had labelled it "Image of Ali", and provided some sort of lineage of the painting, that would be sufficient. This is no different than any image of any historical figure; we include paintings, sculptures, and other images throughout Wikipedia that post-date the historical figures, and this is absolutely acceptable. What we want to verify is not the "accuracy" of the image, but that the image has been labelled as being the person in reliable sources. That said, I would like to know what sources you have (Underlying lk) that indicate that these are of Ali. Are they, for instance, in an art history book, that includes the titles? That alone would be sufficient to include one or more of the images. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Starting from the left, these pictures have been identified as representing Ali by the Harvard Art Museums, Tajan (a French auction house), the British Library (hosted on the website of the Columbia University), the Iran Chamber Society (in this case the artist is known, Ibrahim Naghash bashi Isfahani), Christie's, the Harvard Art Museums again, and while the last miniature doesn't come from a reliable source, it is from the Turkish Siyer-i Nebi (Biography of the Prophet) so it surely represents Ali. Johnleeds1 is exactly right about their provenance, they're nearly all from Iran, with one from India and one from Turkey. As for his objections, he might find of interest that there is a religious arts museum dedicated to Ali in Tehran, of all places. Another art gallery in Tehran even mounted an exhibition of Ali's paintings during Ramadan, and the state broadcaster reported about it on their website.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 12:37, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. Making of Pictures is forbidden(Haram) in Islam, according to many scholars. So in such a sensitive article, these images should not be used. Faizan (talk) 12:41, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Even if we were somehow bound by the opinion of Islamic scholars (and we're not) I disagree: the article's name is not Wahhabi view of Ali, but just Ali. Plenty of scholars would disagree with your statement.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 12:54, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

As to whether or not these images are truthful depictions of Ali's appearance: of course they aren't. But I will quote you an excerpt from a book that might explain why, despite that, many people are still attached to them: "[…] Although identifying the portrayed as Imam Ali, the ritual leader did not believe the portrait to be a 'true' presentation of Imam Ali, but understood it to be a representation. She made a distinction between material and spiritual aspects of the image. Whether or not there actually was any physical likeness between the visual representation of the historical Ali bin Abi Talib was not important for her evaluation of the image. More relevant was the portrait's ability to represent Imam Ali's qualities and character, traits she held were reflected in the facial expressions. According to the ritual leader, the face expressed kindness and honesty, qualities that many Shia believe characterize Imam Ali." Source.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 12:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

These images are in the style of Hindu gods with light emanating from the head. They are deeply influenced by that style of art work. People who know very little about Islam, could easily reach the conclusion that like Hinduism, Islam also has many deities. Later images of other people from the early days of Islam will appear and people may start thinking Islam has lots of deities. Ali appears to be a central character is early Islam. The Quran from beginning to end, appears to tell the reader that God is against idol worship. Looking at Muhammad's early biographies, he also appears to go to great lengths to stop people worshiping images. There is an image of Muhammad on this page too, that is not original. To me it just seems contradictory to make images of Ali and Muhammad and then talk about the "spiritual aspects of the image" when according to both the early Sunni and Shia books, Ali and Muhammad them selves appear to discourage people from worshiping anything other than God. For this reason, images of Muhammad and Ali did not appear for a thousand years. There appear to be no images of Ali before 1500s. Images of Ali only appeared after the reduction in literacy rates in the Middle East after the Mongolian invasions and after the safavids. Such images in the style of a Hindu deity appear to contradict what Ali taught. Qwyrxian, if one follows your line of reasoning, are you saying that if images of Allah appeared and a substantial and/or influential group of people believe these to be images of Allah, you would put them on Wikipedia? --Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:53, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

[unindent] Nearly all of those pictures are from Iran, rather than India, and even then I think the artists were more likely to be inspired by words such as these: "If you want to see the knowledge of Adam, the piety of Nuh, the devotion of Ibrahim, the awe of Musa and the service and devotion of Isa, look at the bright face of Ali." (Sunni references: Sahih al-Bayhaqi, Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Sharh Ibn Abil Hadid, v2, p449).--eh bien mon prince (talk) 17:18, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

This statement is metaphorical, it talks about his charactor. People like Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, lived hundreds of years after Ali. They did not see the face of Ali, they were writing about Alis character metaphorically. They did not say go and draw a face of Ali. There are no picture Ali from Ali's time and no one knows what he looked like. That is why for a thousand years people used the Arabic text for Ali's name not pictures. Putting pictures up will just encourage others to put silly cartoons up and another substantial and/or influential group of people will say that they depicts Ali. Then others will complain that it offends them. The Harvard Art Museums, Tajan (a French auction house), Christie's, the British Library do NOT say these are pictures of Ali, they say "this is an artists impression of..." A cartoonist could say this that their cartoons are an Artists impression too. Auction houses would say anything to make money and sell artwork. Images of Muhammad and Ali have often offended people. If images offend, they violate many WikiPedia policies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Offensive_material so why not just keep it simple and not include such images. They are not even real images of Ali.

--Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:22, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Please stop debating Islamic theology/iconography--it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with our decision to include these images. Johnleeds1, perhaps you are not aware, but we spent several years, numerous dispute resolution sessions, an ArbCom, and a final binding community poll, and every time the use of images was upheld on Muhammad, so long as those images have historical and/or artistic value. We are never going to "keep things simple and not include such images". And, again, your "the are not real images of Ali" has absolutely no merit whatsoever. The article on Jesus has dozens of pictures, and not one of them was painted anywhere near when he lived. The article on Zeus has quite a number of pictures as well, and I think that the consensus is pretty strong that he never even existed in physical form. If the images have been identified as artistic representations of Ali, then they some of them should be in this article. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:57, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistent dates for the death of Ali

The Islamic and Western dates cited (at least twice in the current article) for the death of Ali, 21 Ramadhān 40 AH = 31 January 661 CE, are inconsistent with each other. According to online Islamic date converters (such as here), 21 Ramadhān 40 AH corresponds with 27 or 28 January 661 CE. AstroLynx (talk) 13:41, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Encyclopædia Iranica entry, ʿALĪ B. ABĪ ṬĀLEB also states CE date to be 27 January 661.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider^tc_s 08:35, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

It should furthermore be noted that there is some uncertainty in Islamic sources on the dates when Ali was wounded and subsequently died. Probably for this reason the entry on Ali in the Encyclopaedia of Islam only gives the year. The entry on his assassin, Ibn Muljam, in the same source (vol. 3, pp. 887-890; online here) provides more details and cites sources giving 17, 19 or 21 Ramadan for the wounding and dates varying between 11 and 21 Ramadan for his death. AstroLynx (talk) 09:57, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

There is no real inconsistency in the date of Ali's death. Please allow me to enlighten all of you in this regard:

Below are the links to three widely used Gregorian-Julian-Hijri-Persian-Mayan-Hebrew calendar cross-converters:

http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/ http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/islam/islam_tabcal.htm http://tarekmaani.com/old/calindex.htm [1]

21st Ramadhan 40 AH (Anno Hijri) converts to 31 January 661 CE / AD in GREGORIAN Chronology. 21st Ramadhan 40 AH (Anno Hijri) converts to either 27/28 January 661 CE / AD in JULIAN Chronology.

Some Western-Islamic calendar converters accessed online CONVERT USING JULIAN CHRONOLOGY. Other Western/Christian-Islamic Lunar calendar converters accessed online CONVERT USING GREGORIAN CHRONOLOGY. Some Western-Islamic calendar converters accessed online CONVERT USING BOTH GREGORIAN & JULIAN CHRONOLOGY.

Since the Julian chronology is slightly inaccurate in comparison to the Gregorian chronology, it is only LOGICAL to convert Hijri Lunar dates to the GREGORIAN chronology. Hence, Ali ibn Abu Talib has been widely documented by most early Islamic mu'arikheen (chroniclers) as having been wounded on 19th Ramadhan and passing away on 21st Ramadhan. There have been a few (obscure) sources which have recorded that Ali was wounded on either 15th or 17th Ramadhan and passed away on either 17th or 19th Ramadhan. In Archive 6 of the Ali Talk Page, I have written a piece elucidating on Ali's Chronology. Anyone can visit it and read what I have explained. Ali Ibn Abi Talib's first three hagiographies written were by Abu Mikhnaf, Al-Hashami, and Al-Kalbi between 761-817 CE / AD. This trio have UNANIMOUSLY recorded 21st Ramadhan 40 Anno Hijri for the date of Ali's death (with him being wounded on 19th Ramadhan 40 Anno Hijri). The dates of 17th or 19th Ramadhan came about much later from HADITH sources, not TARIKH sources of the early Abbasid Caliphate (750-833 CE).

For the sake of verifiability & accessibility, Fourmilab Calendar Converter and Tarek's Hijri-Gregorian Calendar Converter are the most convenient and accurate ones to utilize. I have already provided URL links to both of them above. Please feel free to check them out and if anyone has any questions on them please don't hesitate to communicate with me right here on the Ali Talk Page. I will be more than glad to assist in any way I can. Flagrantedelicto (talk) 17:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining the origin of the anomalous Western date for the death of Ali - I already suspected that it was a Gregorian calendar date but I was not sure. However, I would strongly advise against the use of Gregorian calendar dates when dating historical events before its introduction in 1582. Not one single historian does this - everyone uses the Julian calendar (or the proleptic Julian calendar for events before 45 BCE), see also Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Julian_and_Gregorian_calendars. Introducing Gregorian calendar dates for early Islanic events will seriously complicate matters when you try to correlate them with contemporary events in nearby Christian countries which of course used the Julian reckoning. AstroLynx (talk) 08:32, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I would have to disagree with you that Islamic events will seriously be complicated when correlating to Western dates. Islamic events were certainly not as diligently recorded in Western calendar by occidental historians during medieval times, if recorded at all. Muslim historians didn't even begin documenting their OWN historiography until over a hundred years after Prophet Muhammad's death. Besides, the Gregorian calendar wasn't even adopted by England and America until 1752. And subsequently, if anyone refers to any encyclopedia worldwide regarding the chronologies of Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, etc., the GREGORIAN birthdates are listed, not the Julian birthdates. Washington's birthday is listed as 22 February [Gregorian] in the civil calendar, not 11 February [Julian]. Same thing with the Russian historical figures who were born before 1918 (when Russia finally switched to the Gregorian calendar). From Tzar Nicholas I to Lenin or Stalin. Nicholas I's 25 June Julian birthday has been revised to 6 July, as Lenin's 10 April birth has since been revised to 22 April. So stating that no historian revises to Gregorian dates from Julian dates is an incorrect statement, as just about every encyclopedia in the world that has listed birthdates and certain events in the lives of historical figures of the United States of America and Russia. Besides, just view all the countries of the Western world which DID NOT adopt the Gregorian reform in 1582. Sweden didn't adopt the Gregorian calendar until 1753, while Denmark adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1700. Please refer to URL of a WP article on this subject below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar

Summarily, if all the various encyclopedia's of the world have listed the Gregorian birth dates (and death dates) of Russians Tsars Alexander I and Nicholas I (as well as Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky), along with Franklin, Washington, Adams, John Hancock, etc., then there should be no serious issue with listing any of the medieval Islamic dates in Gregorian chronology. Flagrantedelicto (talk) 12:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Did you read Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Julian_and_Gregorian_calendars? It is true that some countries switched to the Gregorian reckoning much later than 1582 (parts of my own country did not switch until 1700/01). But it is the common practice of all historians to use the Julian reckoning before 1582. Any reader of Wikipedia (or any other digital or printed source) actually assumes this. If you take the trouble to consult Islamic-Western calendar conversion tables (back in the old days when you only had printed sources) you will see that dates before 1582 are Julian and dates after 1582 are Gregorian. There is of course no problem if you insist in presenting the Gregorian date but then at least make this clear so that the reader knows - now the reader is left in the dark. AstroLynx (talk) 12:45, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand your point. There is one point to consider though: The Julian conversions have a much broader range of variation in their conversion from the Lunar Hijri calendar than the Gregorian conversion. For example, if you convert 21st Ramadhan 40 Hijri to the Julian date, you will get 24th / 25th / 26th / 27th / 28th January...All depending on which calendar converter one is using. In Gregorian conversion, the level of accuracy, consistency, and concurrence is far greater (barely being off by a day, at the most) when using different converters. This should be taken into consideration as well. Also, I am well aware of Islamic-Western conversion tables from back in the old days when only printed sources were available...I have been consulting them for over 50 years now. Flagrantedelicto (talk) 13:40, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Again I repeat my earlier question, did you read Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Julian_and_Gregorian_calendars? I suspect that you still have'nt because it very clearly states that before 1582 Julian reckoning should be adopted and after 1582 the Gregorian reckoning (with exceptions of course for countries such as England, Sweden, Russia, etc. where the reform was introduced at a later date). In any case, it should always be clear which calendar is used which evidently is not the case now. A casual reader will assume it to be a Julian date while now it is a Gregorian date. I do not agree with your claim that converting Islamic dates to Julian dates is less precise than converting to Gregorian dates. For each Gregorian date there is only one unique matching Julian date - any error in the determination of a Gregorian date will result in an equally large error in the Julian date. The date converter which I recommended converts 21 Ramadan 40 AH to 27 or 28 January 661 CE, depending on whether the 'astronomical' or 'civil' epoch is adopted. I am not familiar with date converters which would produce dates such as 24, 25 or 26 January - if they do exist it is obvious that they should not be used as they clearly have serious errors. AstroLynx (talk) 08:23, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

What is your problem (?) Do you want to start an unnecessary argument here on the Ali Talk Page (?) Why don't you just edit in Gregorian date and that is that. The readers won't have their daily lives uprooted now that it has been determined that 21st Ramadhan converts to 27 or 28 Jan. (Julian) or 31 Jan. (Gregorian). You are making a mountain out of a molehill. The respected WP editor Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider doesn't seem to have as much of a problem with all of this as you seem to. Did you access and try out the date converters (?) First of all, you are incorrect in stating that for each Julian date, there will be an equally unique matching Gregorian date, even though it makes logical sense that it should be so. However, surprisingly, it isn't the case. I have personally experimented with the various calendar converters in this regard to come to this determination. Why don't you use the URL links provided by me and see what you come up with in the Julian and Gregorian conversions, instead of engaging in an unproductive debate. Don't try and explain to me about "civil" and "astronomical", please. I know well enough about it. Besides, the Hijri calendar is based on terrestrial lunar sightings of the unaided human eye. Even today, around the globe, there is variance when any of the Eid or Hijri lunar months commence or end. The Earth's Moon (Luna) appears to move completely around the celestial sphere once in about 27.3 days as observed from the Earth. This is called a sidereal month, and reflects the corresponding orbital period of 27.3 days. However, Luna takes 29.5 days to return to the same point on the celestial sphere as referenced to the Sun because of the motion of the Earth around the Sun; this is called a synodic month (Lunar phases as observed from the Earth are correlated with the synodic month). Hence, the Hijri lunar month can only be either 29 or 30 days in length from terrestrial sighting.

Here are some more URLs to Islamic calendar converters:

http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/hijri.htm

http://www.oriold.uzh.ch/static/hegira.html

http://www.islamicity.com/PrayerTimes/hijriconverter1aPartner.htm

http://www.rabiah.com/convert/

http://www.linktoislam.net/islamic_calendar/date_conversion.aspx

http://www.iranchamber.com/calendar/converter/iranian_calendar_converter.php

http://www.bsswebsite.me.uk/Daysanddates/hijridate.htm

http://www.arabtranslators.org/atn_calendar/atn_calendar.htm

http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/

http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/islam/islam_tabcal.htm

http://tarekmaani.com/old/calindex.htm [2]

Flagrantedelicto (talk) 13:57, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

My problem is that you apparently still have not read Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Julian_and_Gregorian_calendars. I suggest that you do this first before we continue this discussion. AstroLynx (talk) 14:18, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you be a person of your word and stick by what you stated earlier and not continue this discussion any further:

There is of course no problem if you insist in presenting the Gregorian date but then at least make this clear so that the reader knows - now the reader is left in the dark. AstroLynx (talk) 12:45, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

You stated you had no problem if I insisted...Consequently, add an abbreviation of NS (New Style) or GRE (Gregorian) to no longer leave readers in the dark... Or if you like, I shall. Flagrantedelicto (talk) 14:25, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem if you add the qualifier Gregorian to the converted calendar date, but I cannot speak for the other editors of this page and it is not conform with the general guidelines stated in Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Julian_and_Gregorian_calendars which is based on the common rule adopted by historians worldwide. Thanks for the comprehensive list of Islamic date converters - as I host one these myself (I leave it as an exercise for you to figure out which one is mine) I can use them to complete and correct my list of online date converters. As you correctly state, an exact conversion will never be possible (unless the weekday was also transmitted) as we have no actual data on the new moon sighting (hilal) for that particular period and region. That problem is very well known to me as I also host a much consulted website on this issue. AstroLynx (talk) 14:46, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

lol I assume it is the one which has the triplicity of Habash al-Hasib, Fatimid, and the one other...After reading over two dozen different English-language bios on Ali ibn Abi Talib, I noticed that the Julian dates of the majority of them varied in their conversion from the Hijri chronology: One listed 24th Jan, another 25th Jan, yet others 26th Jan, 27th Jan, and 28th Jan. The Gregorian conversion to 31st Jan, I found, remained consistent in Fourmilab, Tarek Maani, etc., etc., so I opted for the N.S. conversions for this sake. If other WP editors unanimously insist upon any one particular Julian date, then I'll settle with either 27th or 28th Jan, I suppose. Take care. Flagrantedelicto (talk) 15:01, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanx! AstroLynx (talk) 15:07, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Postscripted follow-up:

In reviewing the WP policy on Gregorian-Julian chronology usage, it does not specifically state that early Islamic dates MUST use Julian date conversion. It states that Julian dates MAY be given. The WP policy copy-pasted below further states that the dates prior to 1582 AD / CE should not be converted to Gregorian. However, it does not specifically state that this must be so for dates of other calendar systems which are converted to Julio-Gregorian dates. Especially, early Islamic dates prior to 1582 CE. It is then safe to assume that the WP guideline is referring to records and chronicles of Western/Occidental history. Not the Julio-Gregorian conversion of records and chronicles of Eastern/Oriental history. The WP guideline further states, for example, that the ancient Egyptian or Mesopotamian conversion to either Julian or Gregorian chronology is often debatable...To follow the consensus of RS (reliable sources), not specifically RSS (reliable secondary sources), or indicate their divergence.

Julian and Gregorian calendars

See also: Old Style and New Style dates

Dates can be given in any appropriate calendar, as long as the date in either the Julian or Gregorian calendars is provided, as described below. For example, an article on the early history of Islam may give dates in both Islamic and Julian calendars. Where a calendar other than the Julian or Gregorian is used, this must be clear to readers.

Current events are given in the Gregorian calendar.

Dates before the adoption of the Gregorian calendar on 15 October 1582 are normally given in the Julian calendar. The Julian day and month should not be converted to the Gregorian calendar, but the start of the Julian year should be assumed to be 1 January (see below for more details).

Dates for Roman history before 45 BC are given in the Roman calendar, which was neither Julian nor Gregorian. When (rarely) the Julian equivalent is certain, it may be included.

The Julian or Gregorian equivalent of dates in early Egyptian and Mesopotamian history is often debatable. Follow the consensus of reliable sources, or indicate their divergence.

Dates of events in countries using the Gregorian calendar are given in the Gregorian calendar. This includes some of the Continent of Europe from 1582, the British Empire from 14 September 1752, and Russia from 14 February 1918 (see the Gregorian calendar article).

The dating method used should follow that used by reliable secondary sources. If the reliable secondary sources disagree, choose the most common used by reliable secondary sources and note the usage in a footnote.

Flagrantedelicto (talk) 16:07, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Ali's Chronology

Ali ibn Abi Talib's chronology underwent a major mutation from his first historical biographers. Before the socio-religious institution of ahadith (narrations) was firmly established (circa 820-825 CE), or during the Caliphate of 7th Abbasid caliph, Al-Mamun Al-Rashid, the earliest standard Islamic historiographers and hagiographers were primarily the mu'arikheen (chroniclers). With the development of ahadith (narrations) in standard Islam, the muhaditheen (narrators) inexorably eclipsed the mu'arikheen (chroniclers). Since there is virtually no contemporaneous literature surviving from the Umayyad Caliphate (with the exception of Quranic calligraphy), all of the literature of standard Islam are the product of the Abbasid Caliphate (750-1258 CE-Iraq; 1261-1517 CE-Egypt). There remains only sparse references to literary sources from Umayyad times of which absolutely no surviving copies exist. Amidst all of this, the first three (3) biographies of Ali ibn Abi Talib were:

Kitab Maqtal Ali (144 AH/761 CE) by Abu Mikhnaf Lut bin Yahya bin Said bin Mikhnaf bin Salim al-Azdi al-Ghamidi al-Kufi (died 157 AH/773 CE),

Kitab Maqtal Amir Al-Muminin (183 AH/799 CE) by Abu Ishaq Ibrahim bin Sulayman Hashami al-Khazzaz al-Kufi (died 204 AH/819 CE),

and Maqtal Amir ul-Muminin (201 AH/817 CE) by Abu Mundhir Hisham ibn Muhammad bin Saib Al-Kalbi (died 206 AH/821 CE)

Both Hashami and Al-Kalbi adapted Abu Mikhnaf's very first known hagiography of Ali ibn Abi Talib. Hence, they all recorded the same chronology for Ali ibn Abi Talib. The three (3) factors which determined Ali's timeline were his age during the Hijrah of Prophet Muhammad, his age when Prophet Muhammad passed away, and his age when he himself was martyred. The following is a summary:

[Hijri-Lunar chronology]

Ali ibn Abi Talib - Age 16 (during the Hijrah) - Age 27 (when Muhammad passed away) - Age 56 (when martyred or assassinated)

Translates to:

Ali ibn Abi Talib=Born 13 Rajab 16 B.H.(Before Hijrah); Died 21 Ramadhan 40 A.H.(Anno Hijri)

However, with the rise of the institution of ahadith (narrations), the muhaditheen (narrators) almost unanimously felt that Ali's acceptance of the Islamic faith as a cognitive and cognizant nine(9)-year-old preadolescent would appear far better for his historical reputation and image, than him being a three(3)-year-old small child when Muhammad was made aware of his prophethood. It was this primary reason that the muhaditheen (narrators) altered in their oral and written traditions, the date of Ali's birth to 22 B.H.(Before Hijrah). Henceforth, Ali ibn Abi Talib was almost unanimously documented by historians, hagiographers, and narrators as having been born in 22 B.H.(Before Hijrah). This led to the following:

[Hijri-Lunar chronology]

Ali ibn Abi Talib - Age 9 (when accepting Islam) - Age 22 (during the Hijrah) - Age 33 (when the Holy Prophet passed away) - Age 62 (when martyred or assassinated)

Translates to:

Ali ibn Abi Talib=Born 13 Rajab 22 B.H.(Before Hijrah); Died 21 Ramadhan 40 A.H.(Anno Hijri)

The original date of Ali ibn Abi Talib's birth remains almost exclusively recorded in the historiographical archives of his first three (3) biograhphies. As for the birth years of 24 B.H.(599 CE) & 23 B.H.(600 CE), these dates are the product of 19th & 20th Century historians. As with the literary evolution of ahadith (narrations) about Prophet Muhammad, who had over 600,000 ahadith (narrations) attributed to him alone by the time muhaditheen Al-Bukhari sorted out what he considered sahih (authentic), Caliph Ali similarly had countless ahadith (narrations) attributed to him, as well as about him. Amongst some of these, there emerged accounts reporting him to be ages 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, and even 16 when he accepted Islam. However, each of these were only the single sources and generally cited as weak by the most renowned standard Islamic scholars. Summarily, there is also the question of Arabic semantics. When any of the Arabic scholars wrote (for example) that Muhammad received prophethood in his 40th year, that meant that he was actually thirty-nine (39) years old, but in his 40th year running. Subsequently, when Caliph Ali was recorded as accepting Islam in his 10th year, that meant that he was actually nine (9) years old, but in his 10th year running. Flagrantedelicto (talk) 05:04, 5 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flagrantedelicto (talk • contribs)

Ghadir Khumm

Several years ago, in 2006, we reached consensus on this section. (see:Talk:Ali/Ghadir Khumm). However, one of the new wikipedians added some new information:

But according to the Muwatta[3] by Malik ibn Anas, the oldest book in Islam after the Quran.

" 46.3 Yahya related to me from Malik that he heard that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "I have left two things with you. As long as you hold fast to them, you will not go astray. They are the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Prophet."[4]

Also in Ibn `Abbas by al-Bayhaqi in al-Sunan al-Kubra (10:114 #20108) and al-Hakim (1:93=1990 ed. 1:171) and by Malik in his Muwatta' and Ibn `Abd al-Barr in al-Tamhid (24:331) and Abu Hurayra by al-Hakim (1:93=1990 ed. 1:172), al-Bayhaqi in al-Sunan al-Kubra (10:114 #20109), al-Daraqutni in his Sunan (4:245 #149), al-Lalika'i in Sharh Usul I`tiqad Ahl al-Sunna (1:80), al-Khatib, al-Jami` li Akhlaq al-Rawi (1983 ed. 1:111=1991 ed. 2:165-166 #89), Ibn `Abd al-Barr in al-Tamhid (24:331), and Ibn Hazm who declared it sahih in al-Ihkam (6:243)

There are also other versions of this Hadith that say:

"I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it. Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56..

Many of these books were written between 100 and 300 years after Muhammad. These hadith were transmitted orally until they were written down. Muwatta[5] by Malik ibn Anas is the earliest of these books.

Unfortunately, he used primary sources which can not be used based on WP:ISLAMOR unless there is another reliable secondary source verifies the issue. This approach is based on WP:OR and WP:V policies. However, when I studies the sources, I found new facts which help to improve this section. As Encyclopedia of Islam clarifies[6] Hadith of the pond of Khumm is not just narrated by Shias but some reliable Sunni works such as Musnad Ibn Hanbal contains the Hadith. For further information please refer to "The Charismatic Community: Shi'ite Identity in Early Islam" p:34-38. [7]--Seyyed(t-c) 13:44, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you, the said user has not only sprayed many articles with primary sources and quotes from them but also has added lot of original research content too & worse there are lots of instances when unrelated info is added and the user insists on keeping all of that. Anyways good to see you in action.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider^tc_s 15:55, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Naming

Should we mention his naming. The fact he was the first person called Ali, and that his name is the root of Allai? Or that his mother want to call him Asad, but his father wanted to call him Zayd--88.111.113.104 (talk) 16:50, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source.--Seyyed(t-c) 09:35, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Bias

This article is very western bias. I find it as lacking credibility. And there are historical error (might be caused by wester bias/misinterpretation). Some one needs to clean it up and add more info from islamic sources not western sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zabranos (talk • contribs)

If there are specific errors, you're welcome to edit them. However, be careful about adding "Islamic sources". For example, religious texts count as primary sources, and, as such, are generally not useful for verifying article content. Look tSimilarly, religious sources need to be examined and chosen carefully; they should ideally be from scholars of religion, not from religious organizations. Additionally, we need to be careful, especially when dealing with a figure like Ali, about whom there is obviously a lot of disagreement among Muslims, that we do not choose one "side" as being the "truth". But, feel free to recommend sources, and we can revert/discuss as needed; first, though, it will probably help for you to review WP:RS, which are Wikipedia's guidelines for reliable sources. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:00, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The move, though, was definitely inappropriate. We need to use the name most commonly used in English sources. If you wish to pursue a name change, please open a discussion below, as explained at this policy page. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:14, 5 July 2013 (UTC)