Wikipedia talk:Dispute resolution noticeboard

Open DRN cases

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Sales data dispute on Chris Brown article	In Progress	Instantwatym (t)	7 days, 6 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	23 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	23 hours
Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV	In Progress	Avi8tor (t)	5 days, 13 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days,	Avi8tor (t)	16 hours
Arecibo message	Resolved	67.149.172.22 (t)	3 days, 3 hours	Kovcszaln6 (t)	9 hours	Kovcszaln6 (t)	9 hours
Killing of Laken Riley	Closed	Jonathan f1 (t)	2 days, 8 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 1 hours
shakshuka	New	LEvalyn (t)	1 days,	Robert McClenon (t)	12 hours	LEvalyn (t)	10 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 19:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

_

_

How to file new request?

I'd like to file a request for dispute resolution but i don't understand what to do.Timothy.lucas.jaeger (talk) 16:04, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Just to add some more info on the problem, when i click the "Request dispute resolution" button i get taken here but it just appears as a blank page. I looked on the talk page and it sound like some javascript is supposed to fire, but its not. I tried turning Twinkle on in preferences-->Gadgets but that didn't seem to make any difference. Timothy.lucas.jaeger (talk) 18:58, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

It should be working...check if you have javascript enabled in your browser? Steven Zhang ^{Help resolve disputes!} 10:47, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Nope it doesn't work for me. I have javascript enabled. No matter; i've dropped the dispute i was going to post due to lack of time. Timothy.lucas.jaeger (talk) 05:20, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Notifications

I don't think that the bot is handling notifications properly at the moment. Eg: I got no notification of this or of this but did get notice of this. In addition, should it be part of the process that a general notification is inserted on the article talk page? In part, just in case someone accidentally omits a participant from the list? - Sitush (talk) 17:17, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Bot not working (or I'm not working)

Hi;

I've taken up the Palestinian War case for teh purpose of resolving the dispute (the one with Ykantor and Pluto2012 as parties). I took it up last night, and, AFAIK, I am still listed as a volunteer in the "active" list. However, the bot hasn't updated the table to show that the case is open and is being attended to by a volunteer. --The Historian (talk) 20:29, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the bot code hasn't been updated to reflect the new volunteer list. I'll put a stop-gap measure in for now. Steven Zhang (talk) 14:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

MedCom policy change and what it means for DRN

The Mediation Committee (of which I am a member, but I am not speaking here as their spokesperson) has in the past only accepted cases for formal mediation which have previously undergone some lower level of dispute resolution at Third Opinion or here at DRN. They have in the last few days amended that policy to eliminate the prior-DR requirement, but to only require extensive article talk page discussion. They have also added a process by which the committee can decline to hear such cases and refer them back to 3O or DRN if they believe lower-level DR would be beneficial before being handled at MedCom. They also still have a policy which will allow cases to be rejected there if a majority of the disputants do not agree to mediation or if major viewpoints among the disputants will not be represented in the mediation.

What does this mean for DRN? In my opinion, all DRN volunteers should give serious consideration to closing cases and quickly referring them to MedCom if they are particularly complex (either in topic or in number of participants) and if enough disputants weigh in here that it looks like the case would be accepted by MedCom, but let me quickly add that this should always be a discretionary decision left up to the individual volunteer who reviews a pending case here. What does "quickly" mean? It can mean referring a case before any substantial action is taken by a volunteer here, but it can also mean referring a case after the discussion here has started and it becomes apparent that more serious help is needed than the volunteer wishes to give or feels is appropriate here. What does "refer" mean? Again, I think that this should be left up to the individual volunteer, but it can mean either just making a recommendation to the disputants at the time of closing or can even mean filing the case as MedCom on behalf of the disputants. In either case, should you ask the disputants whether or not they want to close up shop here and move on to mediation? Not necessarily, but probably in most cases, depending on what's best for that particular dispute and for the encyclopedia.

That's my two cents and what I'm going to do. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I largely agree. I haven't had time to comment at MedCom talk yet (my fridge broke down this evening, yay) but I think this change means it's not necessary for us to exhaust a dispute before sending it to MedCom, and if it's best, we can just quickly refer it there. I'll comment a bit more later when I don't have so much on my plate :) Steven Zhang (talk) 15:01, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposed change

Proposal by AGK [cross-posted on the MedCom Policy talk page here]: If the DRN volunteer's assessment is that no further assistance is possible and formal mediation would be a more suitable method of DR, the dispute could be referred directly to [the Mediation Committee] under the referrals system without violating the terms of the referral system. This could happen immediately after the dispute is brought to DRN, or after some attempt is made at actually resolving the dispute. The language of the terms of the referral system is deliberately vague. AGK [•] 09:26, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

If there is no disagreement, I suggest that we amend the instructions in the Welcome to DRN box by adding the following after the first paragraph:

"If the DRN volunteer concludes that no further assistance is possible and that formal mediation would be a more suitable method of dispute resolution, the dispute may be referred directly to the Mediation Committee. This referral may happen immediately after the dispute is brought to DRN, or after an initial attempt has been made to resolve the dispute."

How does that sound? Any suggested tweaks? Anything else that needs to be amended? Any concerns? Please comment by midnight UTC, October 19, 2013. Sunray (talk) 16:54, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Does this include a step where you talk it over with the disputants? I would be a bit taken aback if I filed a case at DRN and suddenly found that it was sent to medcom without anyone asking me. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:24, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they would have to sign as agreeing to the mediation. Your question gets at just how the referral would be made. It seems to me that they would need to be contacted and then there would have to be a process to move the information in the DRN request over to Requests for Mediation. Would someone familiar with the technical aspects be able to make some suggestions? Sunray (talk) 06:22, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Not sure if a technical method would need to be implemented. We could either copy the whole lot over to a MedCom page, or close the thread off here and point back to it at the MedCom page. The proposed wording is OK, I might tweak it a bit when I add it to the instructions. Steven Zhang (talk) 23:28, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

That would certainly work. To my mind, the simpler the process, the better. Copy and paste is a proven technology :) Sunray (talk) 18:10, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Backlog at DRN

Hi all,

The backlog at DRN has become rather severe. We really need to clear this backlog before we can accept more cases. To this effect, I'm temporarily going to remove the add new request button from the header, instead pointing folk to MedCom (which has changed their policy recently to allow cases be filed there without prior DR). I'm also going to work on some recognition and rewards. I think at times DR is a thankless task and want to the hard work everyone does more rewarding. @TransporterMan:, fyi. Steven Zhang (talk) 22:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Alas, I am still battling health issues, but I will help as soon as I am able. --22:45, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Taking a slightly more active role in trying to get these silly threads in the coffins. I trust there's no objection to me poking these really old threads that appear stale. Hasteur (talk) 19:27, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

With recent changes to Med com, hopefully this will all iron out in time. While I have removed my name as a volunteer, I still see myself as a DR/N member in spirit and I am actually very thankful to see Hasteur reduce the backlog of the more ridiculous disputes.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:04, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello all, I've been in the process of moving countries recently so haven't been active. I hope to be able to start devoting some more time to here again sooner rather than later. Cabe6403^{(Talk•Sign)} 08:10, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Now that we're down to 6 open threads (with annother one closing soon-ish), can we agree that it's time to make DRN more welcoming again? Hasteur (talk) 19:10, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

If you mean by removing the backlog template — done (and thanks for the hard work, too). Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:30, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

the closed DRN request for SearchMothers.com

Hi, I was looking through the DRN list, and noticed that there is one at the bottom (add searchmothers.com to list of social networking websites) which was closed due to lack of witnesses. The username of the person that posted the request was Smatteo, which is presumably the same S.Matteo who is the editor-slash-maybe-owner of SearchMothers.com -- in other words, WP:COI. Looking at the current article, there is one other social-networking-just-for-moms website in the list, presumably a competitor of SearchMothers, which is called CafeMom. It has an article, which is marked as written-like-an-advert, but the cites are valid albeit old 2008/2009 stuff, plus some notable-I-guess recent awards -- couple WSJ, one NYT, couple ABC (mostly because one of the CafeMom founders used to be on Melrose Place television series methinks). So, my question is, Smatteo is redlinked, which means when I visited their page, I got nada. How do I contact them, to ask if they have any valid cites, and explain WP:COI to them? Please contact me via my talkpage, in case I forget to check back here. Thanks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:07, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Whoops, forgot to paste the COI evidence.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

While this issue should be addressed, as it says at the top of this page this is the talk page for discussing improvements to the dispute resolution noticeboard page. Because the above question does not involve improvements to the DRN page, we cannot address it here. I believe that the correct place to ask your question is at WP:COIN. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:46, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Any hope for this mess?

do any of the regulars here want to weigh in on whether they think there is any possibility that bringing this mess Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake#Discussion:_theory_.2F_hypothesis_.2F_concept here under a third party would be able to bring a resolution? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:16, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Banging the trash can lids together

Perhaps it's me, but I'm seeing very little involvement from the large list of DRN volunteers. Are volunteers still interested in helping resolve disputes or is it time to retire the board and refer disputes elsewhere? Hasteur (talk) 17:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Being as I'm relatively new to this, I'll say the idea of getting involved can be a bit intimidating, especially as often the discussions I'm seeing come up revolve around subject matter that I know little about. I wonder whether there could be some sort of mentorship option where an experienced DRN volunteer works with those who are still new to DRN from an administration viewpoint. In any case, I definitely don't think in a general sense that referring DRN matters elsewhere would improve anything, though I might revise that opinion based on where we might refer them. DonIago (talk) 19:34, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I once volunteered to resolve a dispute; but I failed to figure out how to do all the initial bureaucracy, and gave up. I think that bringing the arguing parties to a consensus would have been easy, compared to finding my way through the bureaucracy. So yes, mentorship might be a good idea. Maproom (talk) 06:41, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I think this might be a good idea. I'm also working on creating some badges, to create a bit of recognition for doing work at DRN. I really appreciate the hard work that you've been doing recently, Hasteur. We have slow periods from time to time but this is quite a lull. I don't think retiring DRN is a good idea though. I think we should put our heads together and work through things. Steven Zhang (talk) 22:08, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

It is not you Hasteur. There is less involvement here than ever before and I can only speak for myself for the reasons I no longer volunteer my time here. For one, Doniago is correct when they say: "I'll say the idea of getting involved can be a bit intimidating, especially as often the discussions I'm seeing come up revolve around subject matter that I know little about" People feel that if they don't know the subject they shouldn't even bother...that is a terrible way to think, but is the main way that I see the discussions go. That may work, but my experience is, when you revolve to much around the subject and not resolution the discussions get bogged down to minutia of the subject itself and tend to wander away from the goal of resolving the dispute. Since we deal with content issues here many feel if hey don't understand the subject matter they should stay out of the discussion. That is far from true. Since our goal as volunteers is to guide the participants to a resolution, many times one need only read through the discussion to see where and what the dispute centers on. It really doesn't take much to understand the issues at hand only and not worry about being knowledgeable about the subject in general. The board has a great deal of other issues, but they are still being looked at. Some tweeks have been made and discussions that changed one policy that allows editors to go straight to Med Com and just skip this board.

DR/N is not the only board to use any editor who wishes to be a volunteer, but we may have tried to be more than we really are. I mean no disrespect to Steven Zhang, but it seems that the biggest hurdle is a format that attracts volunteers and not one that results in chasing them off with conflicts that arise from the board itself, regardless of the merits of such disputes. I no longer volunteer here only because the board lacks real support from administration. Far too often I see participants challenge the volunteers. To be honest I can't help but wonder if this should simple become a subpage of AN/I and be handled within that exact same formatting and frame work. I don't think that will happen or if that is even a suggestion that itself would work...just that it seems to be the formatting of all the other boards. I truly think it is time to think about this becoming more like RS/N, AN/I etc. Just do away with everything and go back to a simple discussion board where editors just start new threads and anyone can help form a consensus. I don't know if that will gain more attention from others, but it seems to be what works, and this seems to be what is not working. How long before we acknowledge that?--Mark Miller (talk) 00:13, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

It's interesting that you say that, since one reason why I took more of an interest in DRN was that I filed a conduct-related ANI case, but it seemed as though the minute an admin noticed that there was anything related to article content involved they pushed me off to here, even though the content-related issues had nothing to do with why I'd approached ANI. The issue wasn't my opposition's policy-based arguments or such, the issue was that they were repeatedly being incivil and insisted on taking things I said out of context and nobody would get involved and tell them they were out of line. In the end I came here, they didn't participate in the filing, and a week later (or less) I was back there and all I'd gained was the DRN filing as additional evidence of their issues.

Making DRN a subpage of ANI sounds good in theory, but it only works if the admins are willing to get involved; otherwise DRN will probably be even less effective than some might argue it already is...and I guess that's one question that concerns me...does DRN ultimately resolve disputes, or does it only serve as a means of establishing that people tried to resolve a dispute and failed? For the amount of work and potential stress that goes into a DRN case it can be a bit disappointing if there's not even a binding (or at least strong) resolution to come from one's efforts.

Regarding disputants challenging volunteers, maybe we need to make it (more) clear that the volunteers are volunteers, that they're plain vanilla editors the same as everyone else, and that we're here to offer advice and guidance, not lay down the law (since we can't in any case). I guess the flip side of that is that volunteers need to ensure they don't rise to the bait and should be willing to acknowledge the challengers without rising to any bait (i.e. "You're welcome to disagree with me, but as a Dispute Resolution volunteer this is my recommendation. If you don't feel this is satisfactory, options include...") DonIago (talk) 06:32, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

That'll probably just get this board nominated for deletion again like the last time such happened with an admin who didn't like that we don't allow personal attacks and will collapse or remove the offending comments. I actually believe you are correct that admin would never agree to make this a subpage of theirs to oversee. I tend to think that a good portion of admin feel they have enough duties and responsibility, and I would have to agree.

We really shot ourselves in the foot with that "Non-binding" stuff. LOL! Seriously, it makes our board weaker than any other board where consensus of editors is the decision. Here we just say, spend a weak or two arguing, debating, digging through references and preparing further references and then when a resolution is made...ah heck, just forget it. We aren't serious. Do what you want, we can't stop you. And we can't because we have announced to the project that we don't work by he consensus of editors. Period. A talk page discussion has more weight than DR/N.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to especially agree or disagree, but I guess my feeling is that DRN essentially is where editors come to when 3O either doesn't apply or didn't give editors the resolution they were hoping for...but at the same time, DRN has no more actual authority than 3O...and you can bet I got challenged when I offered a 3O that one of the involved editors didn't care for. I was perfectly willing to say, "One of the involved editors asked for a third opinion, so here it is. If you don't like it, that's fine, but at least the dispute's moving along." In short I guess one of the problems may be that coming here is no guarantee that a problem will be solved in any manner, and it's possible that volunteers aren't keen to get their hands dirty in a scenario where they may be open to a world of criticism if things go wrong but aren't especially likely to be recognized when things go right. I dunno, it's late here and I may just be rambling... DonIago (talk) 08:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

The number of volunteers at any time comes and goes. There are never very many (the same is true at 3O, by the way). If you'll look at the content boards which preceded this one, the Content Noticeboard and MedCab, there was no more participation by volunteers there than there is here. Since the Wikipedia community has consistently rejected, on several different occasions, content arbitration (i.e. giving anyone the right to make binding decisions on content), the most that can be done is what is already being done at 3O, DRN, and MedCom: giving advice and guidance from a neutral position or, in other words, some form of mediation. The closest thing the community has to content arbitration is RfC, and that fails more often than it succeeds for the same reason that DRN cases often fail: not enough third party participation. That is always going to be a chronic problem in this encyclopedia based around the Wiki/consensus ideal. The other problem in having enough volunteers here and at the other DR forums is that many people come here who are not particularly content-creation oriented but who want to participate in good faith Wikipedia. Of those folks, I'd say about a third start creating or editing content, about a third just give up and leave Wikipedia, and about a third become (or begin to work on becoming and start helping in admin-like forums such as AFD or ArbCom clerking or SPI clerking) administrators; in all three cases they stop doing DR; only a very small number stay with DR. DRN has a place and purpose. It will never be the be-all-and-end-all because DR can never work except in a minority of cases. I have more to say, but I have to jump off to do some RW stuff. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I think the main reason we don't work by consensus is that DR/N is a minority opinion and cannot override a larger community consensus and many times (if not most times) the talk page discussion will have a larger pool of the community finding consensus for any given content dispute. Perhaps we are simply over thinking this (certainly I may be) and that the answer is to simply auto-transclude our discussion directly to the article like a GA review. Perhaps the answer is simply to make DR/N a subpage of the actual article in dispute that appears on the talk page of the specific article. This would then make it a community discussion in a manner that would allow some stability to the consensus reached by that discussion. Something to think about possibly.--Mark Miller (talk) 16:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Notice of partial withdrawal

Dear all;

It is with great sadness that I must inform you that I have come to the decision that I will have to withdraw - either partially or completely - from DRN, and possibly Wikipedia in its entirety. This is because of having just started University, and the impending deadlines, I therefore have less time than I would like to devote to other projects. It is my intention to only "partially" withdraw, and return in the Summer, to then go into hiatus again the following October - hence the reason why I have changed to become the coordinator for July-August. During my hiatuses, I do not intend to do much more than read, keep up to date with some areas of interest, make small edits and keep up with happenings on my talkpage - I have no intention in getting involved in anything nearly as big as the recent arbitration case on Bradley Manning. I do not think I need go as far as placing "retired" on my userpage, or asking to vanish completely.

My time in this project has been a joy, and I look forward to re-joining you all in the summer, when I assume my role as volunteer coordinator for July-August. Normal 0 false false false EN-GB X-NONE X-NONE

--The Historian (talk) 18:53, 20 October 2013 (UTC)