Talk:Climate change
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Frequently asked questions To view an answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question. To view references used by an answer, you must also click the [show] for references at the bottom of the FAQ. Q1: Is there really a scientific consensus on climate change?
A1: Yes. The IPCC findings of recent warming as a result of human influence are explicitly recognized as the "consensus" scientific view by the science academies of all the major industrialized countries. No scientific body of national or international standing presently rejects the basic findings of human influence on recent climate. This scientific consensus is supported by over 99% of publishing climate scientists.[1]
Q2: How can we say climate change is real when it's been so cold in such-and-such a place?
A2: This is why it is termed "global warming", not "(such-and-such a place) warming". Even then, what rises is the average temperature over time – that is, the temperature will fluctuate up and down within the overall rising trend. To give an idea of the relevant time scales, the standard averaging period specified by the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO) is 30 years. Accordingly, the WMO defines climate change as "a statistically significant variation in either the mean state of the climate or in its variability, persisting for an extended period (typically decades or longer)."[2] Q3: Can't the increase of CO2 be from natural sources, like volcanoes or the oceans?
A3: While these claims are popular among global warming skeptics,[3][4] including academically trained ones,[5][6] they are incorrect. This is known from any of several perspectives:
Q4: I think the article is missing some things, or has some things wrong. Can I change it?
A4: Yes. Keep in mind that your points need to be based on documented evidence from the peer-reviewed literature, or other information that meets standards of verifiability, reliability, and no original research. If you do not have such evidence, more experienced editors may be able to help you find it (or confirm that such evidence does not exist). You are welcome to make such queries on the article's talk page but please keep in mind that the talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not discussing the topic. There are many forums that welcome general discussions of global warming, but the article talk page is not such a forum. Q5: Why haven't the graphs been updated?
A5: Two reasons:
Q6: Isn't climate change "just a theory"?
A6: People who say this are abusing the word "theory" by conflating its common meaning with its scientific meaning.
In common usage, "theory" can mean a hunch or guess, but a scientific theory, roughly speaking, means a coherent set of explanations that is compatible with observations and that allows predictions to be made. That the temperature is rising is an observation. An explanation for this (also known as a hypothesis) is that the warming is primarily driven by greenhouse gases (such as CO2 and methane) released into the atmosphere by human activity. Scientific models have been built that predict the rise in temperature and these predictions have matched observations. When scientists gain confidence in a hypothesis because it matches observation and has survived intense scrutiny, the hypothesis may be called a "theory". Strictly speaking, scientific theories are never proven, but the degree of confidence in a theory can be discussed. The scientific models now suggest that it is "extremely likely" (>95%) to "virtually certain" (>99%) that the increases in temperature have been caused by human activity as discussed in the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report. Global warming via greenhouse gases by human activity is a theory (in the scientific sense), but it is most definitely not just a hunch or guess. Q7: Does methane cause more warming than CO2?
A7: It's true that methane is more potent molecule for molecule. But there's far less of it in the atmosphere, so the total effect is smaller. The atmospheric lifetime of methane (about 10 years) is a lot shorter than that of CO2 (hundreds to thousands of years), so when methane emissions are reduced the concentration in the atmosphere soon falls, whereas CO2 accumulates in the atmosphere over long periods. For details see the greenhouse gas and global warming potential articles.
Q8: How can you say there's a consensus when lists of "skeptical scientists" have been compiled?
A8: Consensus is not the same as unanimity, the latter of which is impractical for large groups. Over 99% of publishing climate scientists agree on anthropogenic climate change.[1] This is an extremely high percentage well past any reasonable threshold for consensus. Any list of "skeptical scientists" would be dwarfed by a comparably compiled list of scientists accepting anthropogenic climate change. Q9: Did climate change end in 1998?
A9: One of the strongest El Niño events in the instrumental record occurred during late 1997 through 1998, causing a spike in global temperature for 1998. Through the mid-late 2000s this abnormally warm year could be chosen as the starting point for comparisons with later years in order to produce a cooling trend; choosing any other year in the 20th century produced a warming trend. This no longer holds since the mean global temperatures in 2005, 2010, 2014, 2015 and 2016 have all been warmer than 1998.[12]
More importantly, scientists do not define a "trend" by looking at the difference between two given years. Instead they use methods such as linear regression that take into account all the values in a series of data. The World Meteorological Organisation specifies 30 years as the standard averaging period for climate statistics so that year-to-year fluctuations are averaged out;[2] thus, 10 years isn't long enough to detect a climate trend. Q10: Wasn't Greenland much warmer during the period of Norse settlement?
A10: Some people assume this because of the island's name. In fact the Saga of Erik the Red tells us Erik named the new colony Greenland because "men will desire much the more to go there if the land has a good name."[13] Advertising hype was alive and well in 985 AD.
While much of Greenland was and remains under a large ice sheet, the areas of Greenland that were settled by the Norse were coastal areas with fjords that, to this day, remain quite green. You can see the following images for reference:
Q11: Are the IPCC reports prepared by biased UN scientists?
A11: The IPCC reports are not produced by "UN scientists". The IPCC does not employ the scientists who generate the reports, and it has no control over them. The scientists are internationally recognized experts, most with a long history of successful research in the field. They are employed by various organizations including scientific research institutes, agencies like NASA and NOAA, and universities. They receive no extra pay for their participation in the IPCC process, which is considered a normal part of their academic duties. Q12: Hasn't global sea ice increased over the last 30 years?
A12: Measurements show that it has not.[14] Claims that global sea ice amounts have stayed the same or increased are a result of cherry picking two data points to compare, while ignoring the real (strongly statistically significant) downward trend in measurements of global sea ice amounts.
Arctic sea ice cover is declining strongly; Antarctic sea ice cover has had some much smaller increases, though it may or may not be thinning, and the Southern Ocean is warming. The net global ice-cover trend is clearly downwards. Q13: Weren't scientists telling us in the 1970s that the Earth was cooling instead of warming?
A13: They weren't – see the article on global cooling. An article in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society has reviewed the scientific literature at that time and found that even during the 1970s the prevailing scientific concern was over warming.[15] The common misperception that cooling was the main concern during the 1970s arose from a few studies that were sensationalized in the popular press, such as a short nine-paragraph article that appeared in Newsweek in 1975.[16] (Newsweek eventually apologized for having misrepresented the state of the science in the 1970s.)[17] The author of that article has repudiated the idea that it should be used to deny global warming.[18] Q14: Doesn't water vapour cause 98% of the greenhouse effect?
A14: Water vapour is indeed a major greenhouse gas, contributing about 36% to 70% (not 98%) of the total greenhouse effect. But water vapour has a very short atmospheric lifetime (about 10 days), compared with decades to centuries for greenhouse gases like CO2 or nitrous oxide. As a result it is very nearly in a dynamic equilibrium in the atmosphere, which globally maintains a nearly constant relative humidity. In simpler terms, any excess water vapour is removed by rainfall, and any deficit of water vapour is replenished by evaporation from the Earth's surface, which literally has oceans of water. Thus water vapour cannot act as a driver of climate change.
Rising temperatures caused by the long-lived greenhouse gases will however allow the atmosphere to hold more vapour. This will lead to an increase in the absolute amount of water vapour in the atmosphere. Since water vapour is itself a greenhouse gas, this is an example of a positive feedback. Thus, whereas water vapour is not a driver of climate change, it amplifies existing trends. Q15: Is the fact that other solar system bodies are warming evidence for a common cause (i.e. the sun)?
A15: While some solar system bodies show evidence of local or global climate change, there is no evidence for a common cause of warming.
Q16: Do scientists support climate change just to get more money?
A16: No,
Q17: Doesn't the climate vary even without human activity?
A17: It does, but the fact that natural variation occurs does not mean that human-induced change cannot also occur. Climate scientists have extensively studied natural causes of climate change (such as orbital changes, volcanism, and solar variation) and have ruled them out as an explanation for the current temperature increase. Human activity is the cause at the 95 to 99 percent confidence level (see the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report for details). The high level of certainty in this is important to keep in mind to spot mention of natural variation functioning as a distraction. Q18: Should we include the view that climate change will lead to planetary doom or catastrophe?
A18: This page is about the science of climate change. It doesn't talk about planetary doom or catastrophe. For a technical explanation, see catastrophic climate change, and for paleoclimatic examples see PETM and great dying. Q19: Is an increase in global temperature of, say, 3 degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) important?
A19: Though it may not sound like much, a global temperature rise of 3 degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) is huge in climate terms. For example, the sea level rise it would produce would flood coastal cities around the world, which include most large cities.
Q20: Why are certain proposals to change the article discarded, deleted, or ignored? Who is/was Scibaby?
A20: Scibaby is/was a long term abusive sock-master (or coordinated group of sock masters) who has created 1,027 confirmed sock puppets, another 167 suspected socks, and probably many untagged or unrecognized ones. This page lists some recent creations. His modus operandi has changed over time, but includes proposing reasonably worded additions on the talk page that only on close examination turn out to be irrelevant, misinterpreted, or give undue weight to certain aspects. Scibaby is banned, and Scibaby socks are blocked as soon as they are identified. Some editors silently revert his additions, per WP:DENY, while others still assume good faith even for likely socks and engage them. Q21: What about this really interesting recent peer-reviewed paper I read or read about, that says...?
A21: There are hundreds of peer-reviewed papers published every month in respected scientific journals such as Geophysical Research Letters, the Journal of Climate, and others. We can't include all of them, but the article does include references to individual papers where there is consensus that they best represent the state of the relevant science. This is in accordance with the "due weight" principle (WP:WEIGHT) of the Neutral point of view policy and the "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" principle (WP:IINFO) of the What Wikipedia is not policy. Q22: Why does the article define "climate change" as a recent phenomenon? Hasn't the planet warmed and cooled before?
A22: Yes, the planet has warmed and cooled before. However, the term "climate change" without further qualification is widely understood to refer to the recent episode and often explicitly connected with the greenhouse effect. Per WP:COMMONNAME, we use the term in this most common meaning. The article Climate variability and change deals with the more general concept. Q23: Did the CERN CLOUD experiment prove that climate change is caused not by human activity but by cosmic rays?
A23: No. For cosmic rays to be causing global warming, all of the following would have to be true, whereas only the italicized one was tested in the 2011 experiment:[28]
Q24: I read that something can't fix climate change. Is this true?
A24: Yes, this is true for all plausible single things including: "electric cars", "planting trees", "low-carbon technology", "renewable energy", "Australia", "capitalism", "the doom & gloom approach", "a Ph.D. in thermodynamics". Note that it is problematic to use the word "fix" regarding climate change, as returning the climate to its pre-industrial state currently appears to be feasible only over a timeframe of thousands of years. Current efforts are instead aimed at mitigating (meaning limiting) climate change. Mitigation is strived for through the combination of many different things. See Climate change mitigation for details. References
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Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90 91, 92, 93, 94, 95 |
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Proposed deletion of "Etymology" section (or complete rewrite)
I had a go at tidying up the "Etymology" section, but I found all of the information in the section to be either wrong, or unverifiable:
1. There is a claim, based on a couple of sources, that the first use of the term "global warming" was in Broeker's 1975 Science paper. While this is verifiable based on the sources, it is also clearly wrong. A 5 minute search turns up multiple much older papers using the term "global warming" in very much the modern sense e.g. here is one from 1961: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1961.tb50036.x/asset/j.1749-6632.1961.tb50036.x.pdf?v=1&t=hs7ionk4&s=084326cfda11928d139529fde573339a26b630fc. It seems to be based originally on a WebofScience search on the RealClimate blog, which is a fairly dreadful way of establishing the first use of the term.
2. The next part of the section is a claim that the first time the National Academy of Science used the term "global warming" was in a 1979 report, but the cited source (Conway's article on the NASA website) does not say this is the first time, so a citation is needed for this. In my opinion this claim may well not be correct (especially since the term had been in use in the scientific community for at least 18 years by that point) - but it is actually quite a hard thing to know what the first usage of the term within this particular organisation is, and I certainly can't find any reliable sources.
3. Finally, there is the claim the that Jim Hansen popularised the term after his testimony to Congress. As far as I can tell, this is just the opinion of a NASA historian on a NASA scientist. There is no justification for it e.g. an observed spike in usage directly after June 1988. At best we can say "According to Erik Conway, the term 'global warming' was popularised after the June 1988 testimony of Jim Hansen..."
I think it is clear that, with current citations, 1 and 2 should be removed, leaving a whole section for the opinion of Erik Conway that the term 'global warming' was popularised after Hansen's testimony, with no empirical backing for the statement.
I think the options then are either to remove the section completely, or find sources that discuss the etymology and rewrite the section using those. Currently, the section is unacceptably poor in my opinion. Atshal (talk) 14:28, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed; can't see the point of the section. It seems to be being used as a sort of pseudo-history section William M. Connolley (talk) 22:50, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Agree with respect to the treatment of the issue in its present form, though I may explore the topic some other way here or elsewhere later. But the present text isn't that helpful, I agree. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:08, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Agree. The concept of having an Etymology section, though, is good. 71.8.61.207 (talk) 05:33, 1 March 2014 (UTC)Jesse
- I have removed most of the section, leaving only the Conway claim, to make it easier for people to add to the section an rebuild it. Atshal (talk) 14:16, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
On a more general topic..
(Redacted) 41.130.213.196 (talk) 13:53, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
- While these may be correct statements or worthy objectives, they don't seem to have anything to do with etymology, so I've added a header. Without reliable published sources, we can't add anything about this to the article: do you have sources in mind? . . dave souza, talk 21:15, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like it's a close paraphrase of some stuff floating around on the internet, so I redacted it as a likely copy vio... Sailsbystars (talk) 01:00, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Should "Evidence of global warming" really redirect to "Attribution of climate change"?
In my view, the new redirect Evidence of global warming ---->>> Attribution of recent climate change was done in GF but little knowledge and probably shouldn't have said that, sorry the result is an WP:EGG. There is a difference between
A. Evidence that the place is getting hotter, e.g. "evidence of global warming", and B. Evidence that it is caused mostly by us, or by pink unicorn farts, or whatever, e.g. "evidence supporting the attribution of global warming"
I was going to fix that myself, but I am unsure of a good place that would be a better redirect. That got me to wondering if Evidence of global warming should be turned into an article of its own. Thoughts? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- I created this redirect because of pages like evidence of common descent. And since "attribution" clearly discusses evidence that global warming is man-made rather than just that it is occurring, I guess it might make sense to retarget it to instrumental temperature record or something like that. Jinkinson talk to me 18:44, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think that the equivalent of 'evidence of common descent' would be 'evidence of man-made global warming'. The benefit to the encyclopedia of creating random, and slightly wrong, redirects is less clear. --Nigelj (talk) 20:48, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- Alright, I retargeted it as I proposed above; I hope you're happy. Jinkinson talk to me 22:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Climate models
I have been under the impression that climate models have OVER estimated observed surface temps, but UNDER estimate sea ice loss.
The physical realism of models is tested by examining their ability to simulate contemporary or past climates.[132] Climate models produce a good match to observations of global temperature changes over the last century, but do not simulate all aspects of climate.[133] Not all effects of global warming are accurately predicted by the climate models used by the IPCC. Observed Arctic shrinkage has been faster than that predicted.[134] Precipitation increased proportional to atmospheric humidity, and hence significantly faster than global climate models predict.[135][136]
This doesn't reflect the latest IPCC explanation.
http://www.thegwpf.org/ipcc-draft-lowers-global-warming-projections/
Since this is a "Talk" section, I'm throwing this out there and hoping someone more versed in climate models will correct this or confirm the wording as acceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.198.56 (talk) 00:33, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
- Clue – the Global Warming Policy Foundation is a denialist publicity stunt with no scientific credibility, and is not a reliable source. Please present your own proposals for improvements to article wording, and cite the IPCC AR5 itself showing page numbers so that the context can be checked. If you want to cite commentary on the AR5, find a better commentator. . . 21:22, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
- That shows your ignorance Clue. They are a skeptic organization, and the information should have been all the scientific credibility you needed. It is obvious that they were familiar with the work of Stroeve and Scambos on the Arctic Ice Cap, and that you aren't. Otherwise you would know that the models were 30 years behind the melting in 2006, even before the 2007 loss of much of the perennial ice, and that their more recent work shows the models are still doing poorly.
- "Observations indicate a downward trend in September Arctic sea ice extent from 1953–2006 that is larger than any of the IPCC AR4 simulations, and current summer minima are approximately 30 years ahead of the ensemble mean model forecast." Arctic sea ice decline: Faster than forecast Julienne Stroeve, et al GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 34, L09501, doi: 10.1029/2007GL029703, 2007
- Don't be so clueless Clue. Here is a quote from Stroeve “The actual rate of sea ice loss in March, about 1.8 percent per decade in the 1953 to 2006 period, was three times larger than the mean from the computer models,” Poodleboy (talk) 20:05, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- Clueless, here is the more recent Stroeve publication I referred to:
- "We show here that as a group, simulated trends from the models contributing to CMIP5 are more consistent with observations over the satellite era (1979–2011). Trends from most ensemble members and models nevertheless remain smaller than the observed value. Pointing to strong impacts of internal climate variability, 16% of the ensemble member trends over the satellite era are statistically indistinguishable from zero. Results from the CMIP5 models do not appear to have appreciably reduced uncertainty as to when a seasonally ice-free Arctic Ocean will be realized." Citation: Stroeve, J. C.,V.Kattsov, A. Barrett, M. Serreze, T. Pavlova, M. Holland, and W. N. Meier (2012), Trends in Arctic sea ice extent from CMIP5, CMIP3 and observations, Geophys. Res. Lett., 39, L16502, doi:10.1029/2012GL052676.
- Poodleboy (talk) 20:22, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- That shows your ignorance Clue. They are a skeptic organization, and the information should have been all the scientific credibility you needed. It is obvious that they were familiar with the work of Stroeve and Scambos on the Arctic Ice Cap, and that you aren't. Otherwise you would know that the models were 30 years behind the melting in 2006, even before the 2007 loss of much of the perennial ice, and that their more recent work shows the models are still doing poorly.
Unequivocal?
Is is really necessary to use the word unequivocal in the first sentence? I think it's on the redundant side. A better read would be: "Global warming refers to the continuing rise in the average temperature of Earth's climate system." --IamGlobalTemp (talk) 00:53, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
- been discussed before. Got off track though... Sailsbystars (talk) 01:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
- The inclusion of that word in the opening sentence also jars with me too. While, it is true that the warming of the Earth is 'unequivocal', or at least close to it, including the word in the opening sentence makes the article instantly seem confrontational, and does not need to be included in any definition of global warming. The level of evidence is apparent and discussed numerous times within the article. Including the word 'unequivocal' in the opening sentence certainly makes the article seem less neutral for anybody reading it (in my opinion), and is a shame since the rest of article on the whole is very good. Atshal (talk) 14:57, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Here is one alternative... see the first couple paragraphs at Talk:Global_warming/Archive_69#Attempted_Lead_Rewrite NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:59, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
- That suggestion is well written, but I think would be more appropriate for a climate change article, rather than global warming. My suggestion would be simply to change the opening sentence to "Global warming refers to the recent rise in the average temperature of Earth's climate system." That to me is a simple and uncontroversial definition to begin the article with. Atshal (talk) 14:39, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Social impacts of climate change
I've previously criticized [1] the section of the article that describes the impacts of climate change on food production (global warming#Food security). Now that the IPCC 5th Assessment Impacts report has been published [2], I suggest that the entire social impacts section be revised. In my view, important areas of the IPCC report include the "key risks" of climate change listed on p.12 of the Summary for Policymakers (SPM), and the risks organized into 5 "reasons for concern" (p.13 of the SPM). The FAQs is another useful source. I suggest that the new revision be based upon this information. Enescot (talk) 07:11, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
- Once this is done, this section here needs also a few lines with the new data (currently does not acknowledge food, water, energy security and inequility as a cause for civil unrest) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_climate_change_on_humans#Security Related IPCC Climate Change Report The Five Key Points Prokaryotes (talk) 16:39, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Combining of all WG1 2013 Summary report Refs?
Though, i updated all the broken PDF links to the first draft release of the Summary for Policymakers report, now pointing to the landing page http://www.climatechange2013.org/spm of said report. However, reference page numbers might be off(didn't checked on a case by case basis). To slim down on references i suggest to use only 1 reference for all the summary 2013 links. However, if we do this, page numbers would be gone. Good or bad idea? Prokaryotes (talk) 17:39, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
- With footnotes it would be possible to add page numbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NAMEDREF#Footnotes:_page_numbers Prokaryotes (talk) 03:19, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2014 I don't want to edit this article.. I just need it for homework please.
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I don't want to edit this article.. I just need it for homework please.←§ 97.96.223.153 (talk) 11:06, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
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