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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sponsion (talk | contribs) at 09:40, 3 December 2014 (→Jimmy Carter: delete word "for"). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Working on the B's from Denslow

Please see Talk:List of Freemasons/Archive 6#Working on the A.27s from Denslow...
OK, I have been working on the B's in Denslow. Eric Cable  |  Talk  15:13, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The First Fifty

Adding the following names:Nahum J. Bachelder, Irving Bacheller, Augustus Octavius Bacon, Robert L. Bacon, Walter W. Bacon, Robert Baddeley, Arthur P. Bagby, John J. Bagley, Karl Friedrich Bahrdt, Carl Edward Bailey, James E. Bailey, John O. Bailey, Theodorus Bailey, Thomas L. Bailey, Bryant Baker, Howard Baker, Sr., James Marion Baker, Nathaniel B. Baker, Phil Baker, Samuel Aaron Baker, Simon Strousse Baker, Walter Ransom Gail Baker, Antonio González de Balcarce, Bernt Balchen, H. C. Baldridge, Joseph C. Baldwin, Raymond E. Baldwin, Robert Balfour, 3rd Earl of Balfour, Frank Clayton Ball, George Alexander Ball, L. Heisler Ball, Thomas R. Ball, James Ballantine, James Ballantyne, John Ballantyne, Hosea Ballou, Robert C. Baltzell, Charles-Louis Balzac, Fred B. Balzar, Simon Bamberger, Harry Hill Bandholtz, John H. Bankhead, Nathaniel P. Banks, Parke M. Banta, Orion Metcalf Barber, Clarence Barbour, James Barbour, McClelland Barclay, Guy K. Bard, and Samuel Bard.  Eric Cable  |  Talk  15:13, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another Thirty

I've been behind on this project. Back on it...
Thomas R. Bard, Graham Arthur Barden, Clinton L. Bardo, Walter S. Baring, Jr., William Julius Barker, Elmer E. Barlow, Joel Barlow, Isaac D. Barnard, Cassius McDonald Barnes, James M. Barnes, Will C. Barnes, Joshua Barney, Maurice Victor Barnhill, Henry A. Barnum, William Henry Barnum, Samuel Barrett, Lewis O. Barrows, John Barry (naval officer),William T. Barry, John L. Barstow, Frédéric Auguste Bartholdi, Harold Roe Bartle, John H. Bartlett, Josiah Bartlett, Robert Bartlett,Francesco Bartolozzi, William Barton, Charles Baskerville, Edward Bass, Perkins Bass  Eric Cable  |  Talk  19:59, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

32 More

Adding 32 more...
Richard Napoleon Batchelder, William B. Bate, Edward Bates, Isaac C. Bates, John L. Bates, Joe B. Bates, John S. Battle, Laurie C. Battle, Warner Baxter, Francis Baylies, George Lafayette Beal, John V. Beamer, Henry J. Bean, William S. Beardsley, John Beatty, Henry Somerset, 5th Duke of Beaufort, Eugène de Beauharnais, Campbell Eben Beaumont, William Beaumont, P. G. T. Beauregard, Charles Bebb, Stephen David Bechtel, Sr., Theodric Romeyn Beck, Rudolph Zacharias Becker, J. C. W. Beckham, John J. Beckley, Johann Beckmann, Joseph D. Bedle, Hamilton P. Bee, Robert Livingston Beeckman, Carroll L. Beedy, Wallace Beery  Eric Cable  |  Talk  14:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

21 More

Tom Berry, Clifford K. Berryman, Paul Bert, Francisco Bertrand, Jöns Jacob Berzelius, Walter Besant, William Thomas Best, Jackson Edward Betts, Albert J. Beveridge, James R. Beverley, Howard Landis Bevis,George M. Bibb, Thomas Bibb, Dana X. Bible, Thomas Walter Bickett, Edward Biddle, Benjamin Alden Bidlack, John Bidwell, Albert Bierstadt, Timothy Bigelow, Benjamin T. Biggs.  Eric Cable  |  Talk  14:02, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another 29

Adding William Bizzell, Sveinn Björnsson, Frank S. Black, James D. Black, John Black, John C. Black, Lloyd Llewellyn Black, Samuel W. Black, Joseph Clay Stiles Blackburn, Luke P. Blackburn, Robert E. Lee Blackburn, Isaac Blackford, William W. Blackney, J. Stuart Blackton, Ibra Charles Blackwood, James Thomas Blair, Jr., William Rufus Blake, Antonio Guzmán Blanco, Richard P. Bland, Theodorick Bland, William Thomas Bland, Henry G. Blasdel, Valentin Blatz, Cadwallader Blayney, 9th Baron Blayney, Jesse Bledsoe,Samuel T. Bledsoe, Harman Blennerhassett, Archie Bleyer, and Aaron T. Bliss. Eric Cable  |  Talk  13:41, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Should female freemasons be included?

As above. Should members of female masonic lodges be included in the list? I was about to ad Hedvig Eleonora von Fersen.--Aciram (talk) 16:42, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See Droit Humain discussion above. Neutral POV demands that we accept female Freemasons as valid if we know they have definitely been initiated. If you have the reference, please add her. If, however, she was only a member of a lodge of adoption, this by its own admission is not "real" freemasonry. We have to have a proven link to a mainstream lodge. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 17:33, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see. I am myself ignorant in this subject: the reference I have say that she was a member of a lodge of adoption which was linked to the mainstream Swedish lodge: this adoption lodge was as I understand created by contemporary leader of the mainstream Masonic lodge in Sweden, Charles XIII of Sweden (then Prince), who created his consort Hedvig Elisabeth Charlotte of Holstein-Gottorp, to be the leader of the female adoption lodge of the Swedish mainstream lodge in Sweden. She was herself acknowledged as freemason by her consort and are known to have referred to masonic subjects to him in their private correspondence, and him to have spoken of it to her, which as I understand freemasons could only do to each other. The other four women members were Sophie von Fersen, Hedvig Eleonora von Fersen, Ulrica Catharina Brahe and (though this is regarded as less certain) Christina Charlotta Gyldenstolpe. I am too ignorant, I am afraid, to decide more than what I can read from that (it is not the main topic of the reference), but perhaps it is more clarifying to you. In any case: there is a Category:Freemasons; should this be used for members of the adoption lodges, or should a new category for them be created? --Aciram (talk) 17:55, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The ladies in Lodges of Adoption would not have described themselves as Freemasons. Perhaps a new category is in order. We could perhaps put a list at the end of Rite of Adoption, which would probably be fairly short, but would include the Empress Josephine. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 20:37, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I thought Josephine suppressed the Freemasons which is big part of the stroy behind The Magic Flute. Eric Cable  |  Talk  12:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Um... no... I think you are confusing your Empresses... the Magic Flute was inspired (or so people say) by Austrian Empress Maria Theresa (who was firmly against Freemasonry and suppressed it) and her son, Emperor Joseph II, Holy Roman Emperor (who was actually somewhat pro Freemasonry, and may even have been a Freemason). Blueboar (talk) 13:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Maria Theresa.... you're absolutely right. I was mis-remembering. Eric Cable  |  Talk  16:16, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, maybe a new list for women is in order. Eric Cable  |  Talk  12:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea of a separate list for members of various Rites of Adoption (and I agree that it would be best to start off with it being a section within the Rite of Adoption article... we can always move it to its own list article when we have enough verifiable people listed to merit a Stand Alone List). Blueboar (talk) 13:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's a good opportunity to bulk out that article, because we really have very little on OES, Queen of the South, or Amaranth included in there. MSJapan (talk) 16:51, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The question is... is OES (and similar groups) a "Rite of Adoption"... or are they something else? Blueboar (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Knowing a good deal on the history of OES and having read the description of Rite of Adoption, I don't think OES belongs there. Eric Cable  |  Talk  18:41, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Any list will be fairly short, and I think should be kept separate from OES, since they arose independently of each other. Rite of Adoption needs work. It seems to be a translation of the French Wikipedia article, and conflicts with everything else I've read on adoption, which I've slotted into Freemasonry and Women#Lodges of Adoption. I haven't replaced the grades in the Rite article as a reminder to myself to sniff out another reference to them, but I admit, this is WAY down the to-do list. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 18:54, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So... getting back to the original question... yes notable female MASONS can and should be added to this list (assuming we can verify membership). But we need to be clear as to what makes a woman a MASON. To get us past the "Regular" vs. "Irregular" POV, we can not base our inclusion on who recognizes who... I think we have to base it on what degrees she took. If she took the same three craft degrees as are offered in male only Freemasonry, then she qualifies for this list. If she took some other degrees... degrees that may be similar to (or inspired by) those three craft degrees - then she does not qualify for this list. She might qualify for a related list... but not this one.
Does this work for everyone? Blueboar (talk) 22:12, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Works for me, but as demonstrated above, occasionally needs spelled out for non-masons. Perhaps a note in the lead of the list might help? Fiddlersmouth (talk) 00:01, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the principle you're proposing Blueboar, although (at risk of pedantry) would point out that she doesn't need to have taken the "three craft degrees" in order to be included in this list - she only needs to have taken the Entered Apprentice degree in order to have become a Freemason. Timothy Titus Talk To TT 05:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not the point - the adoption rite that Hedvig Eleonora von Fersen joined had degrees with the same names, but very different ritual to male masonry. One version of the Apprentie ritual had a life-size papier mache tree of life and a mechanical snake with a working jaw, which I have yet to locate in our lodge store cupboard.
There are two questions here -
* Do we include female masons? Yes, as long as we can document a recognised Masonic initiation.
* Was Hedvig Eleonora von Fersen a Freemason. Probably not, although she definitely participated in some version of the Rite of Adoption.
Von Fersen probably needs documented as such, and we will sooner or later be confronted with a group of American ladies whose initiation belongs in the realm of masonic myth, but that is another problem for another day. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 11:22, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that it is the point, and that it is very clear. Someone who has cavorted with a papier mach tree and a serpent has manifestly not taken the EA degree. It's a question of the ritual, not the name. I can call my house a banana, but it remains a house, not a piece of fruit. The list is for those who have taken the Entered Apprentice degree (and, in most cases, subsequent degrees also), and not for those who haven't, even if they have engaged in something imitative of Masonry or hijacking its terms and titles. Timothy Titus Talk To TT 15:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If BC&Y cites Denslow...

Hi. Seems to me if the BC&Y website cites Denslow as it's source, then shouldn't we just verify the listing in Denslow and then just cite Denslow? Eric Cable  |  Talk  16:09, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, first there is WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT: If we got the information from BC&Y, we should cite BC&Y... not the sources that they cite.
Second... why bother? Do you not consider BC&Y reliable? Blueboar (talk) 14:44, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't it best, not only for Wikpedia but for all academic work, to cite the original source if possible? If I look at a BC&Y listing and they cite Denslow and I confirm that person is listed in Denslow, then wouldn't it make sense for me to cite Denslow on our list here or anywhere else? Eric Cable  |  Talk  13:36, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Put it this way... I would say that Denslow and the BC&Y website are equally reliable. It isn't wrong to switch from one citation to another when they are equally reliable... but it isn't really necessary to do so.
So... while I certainly don't object to your switching the citation for these entries to Denslow, I don't think it is in any way necessary that you do so. I don't think the change of source is really an improvement... or at least not enough of an improvement to make the effort worthwhile.
That said... if you really want to make the effort, have fun. Blueboar (talk) 16:13, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Data Overhaul.

I am in the midst of a massive overhaul of this list because frankly, it looks pretty, but it really is a hot mess.

  • There are the obvious things like alphabetizing errors and no comma after the dates, etc.
  • There are less obvious problems like non-standardization of things like "This person was the 9th Governor of North Carolina" instead of "This person was the Ninth Governor of North Carolina."
  • There are a LOT of {{Verify credibility}} and {{deadlink}} tags that need to be added and fixed.
  • Dates are a mess. I am correcting them all to be day month year (10 December 2013) which is a Wikipedia standard. I am also adding the day and month for dates where we only have the year.
  • Consolidation of references. Some references, like BC&Y, are referenced a two dozen times differently when there should be <ref name="????"> being used.
  • Lots of references are simply [http://www.???.com] instead of proper {{Citation citations. I am fixing that. (yes, I am going through all 500+ cites on the list one at a time.)
  • Finally, I think we should come up with a Manual of Style for this list and stick to it. For example...
Instead of...
  • Major General Sir Allan Adair, 6th Baronet, GCVO, CB, DSO, MC, JP, DL (3 November 1897—4 August 1988), was a British Army general who served in both World Wars. Household Brigade Lodge No. 2614 and appointed Assistant Grand Master of the G.L. of England in 1953.
I think it should read..
  • Allan Adair, 6th Baronet (3 November 1897—4 August 1988), GCVO CB DSO MC JP DL British Army Major General who served in both World Wars. Household Brigade Lodge No. 2614 and appointed Assistant Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of England in 1953.

I did a similar overhaul a year ago mainly for alphabetizing errors, but I am a lot better that all the technical wikipedia stuff now. Eric Cable  |  Talk  13:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Huge project... but if you have the time and energy to see it through, Go for it! Blueboar (talk) 16:18, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A few thoughts on the style... I would not bother listing all the awards and honors (GCVO, CB, DSO, MC, JP, DL, etc.)... that sort of stuff is irrelevant to their Masonic membership, and can be left to the bio article. Blueboar (talk) 16:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jack Churchill

Someone please help me determine if Jack Churchill aka "Mad Jack" was a Freemason. I just learned about him and he is my new hero. This crazy guy carried a longbow, sword, AND his bagpipes into battle throughout WWII. Someone who was Scottish and that much of a bad ass just HAD to be a Mason. Let's find the proof. Eric Cable  |  Talk  04:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Eric - I ran a story on Mad Jack in our Lodge Newsletter (it gets distributed far and wide) including into the US and Europe, I asked a question on the Keystone Medal once and got an answer in 12 hours from someone in the UK I'd never heard of. I've done some digging and can find no evidence he was a Freemason. Melbournemason (talk) 00:37, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I figured. I guess he was too buys being a bad-ass to be a Mason. LOL  Eric Cable  |  Talk  19:24, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Deleting Gerry McCann

I don't care how much Jahbulon-13 screams and yells his rantings that Masons secretly run the World. The bottom line is there is no article for Gerry McCann. No article, no inclusion on this list. Eric Cable  |  Talk  13:38, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree... although I think the lack of any reliable source is an even more compelling reason to exclude him from the list. To put it mildly... McCann fails both of our key inclusion requirements. Blueboar (talk) 13:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've been trying to find a copy online of the source he gives, with no luck - and the book is "currently unavailable" - to see if the source J-13 refers to cites any reliable sources. Given the overall 'feel' of their website, I'm inclined to believe not... WegianWarrior (talk) 16:06, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's all well and good BUT there still is no article specifically about HIM. Why are willing to bend on one of the bedrock inclusion requirements for this person? Eric Cable  |  Talk  16:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not - I'm mainly curious as to why it's so important for a group that is at the very least borderline conspiracy theorists to prove that McCann is/was a Mason. WegianWarrior (talk) 17:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The last page that got protected for excessive vandalism! 166.137.244.110 (talk) 12:36, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmy Carter

Special Ceremony Honoring President Carter

On December 1, 2014 President Jimmy Carter was made an Honorary Ambassador of Hasan Shriners and Shriners International. Here are some pictures from that ceremony.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.964122600281732.1073741835.158786077482059&type=1

This information includes 43 pictures of Jimmy Carter becoming an Honorary Ambassador of Hasan Shriners and Shriners International. This information does not prove Jimmy Carter is a Mason, but I figure the editors, who work on this page, should have access to this information. It is okay with me if you delete this entry after you save a copy of the information for future use. Sponsion (talk) 03:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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