Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history

Main pageDiscussionNews &
open tasksAcademyAssessmentA-Class
reviewContestAwardsMembers

Summary of Military history WikiProject open tasks watch · edit · full list News and announcements The August newsletter is now available. Editors are advised that Featured Articles promoted before 2016 are in need of review, if you had an article promoted to Featured status on or before 2016 please check and update your article before they are listed at FAR/C. Current discussions No major discussions are open at the moment Featured article candidates Jozo Tomasevich • Battle of Saipan • Siege of Baghdad • British nuclear weapons and the Falklands War • German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war Featured article review Byzantine Empire • Battle of Red Cliffs • Edward I of England • Northrop YF-23 • Middle Ages • Thomas C. Hindman Featured list removal candidates List of deaths at the Berlin Wall Featured picture candidates Thorsten Nordenfelt A-Class review Henry Biard • Fort Corcoran • Sihanouk Trail • Boot Monument • Miyoshi Nagayoshi • Ernest J. King • Lockheed YF-22 • SPARS Peer reviews Muckrach Castle • Military logistics • Military dictatorship • Henry Clay Work • Galatian War • Charles the Bold • 1939 Liechtenstein putsch • Sher Shah Suri • Rwandan genocide • Castlereagh–Canning duel Good article nominees Ava–Hanthawaddy War (1401–1403) • Suleiman I of Candar • Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma • Mehmed of Dulkadir • 1864 Washington Arsenal explosion • Roswell incident • Maximiliano Hernández Martínez • Mohammad Shah Qajar • Gubir shootdown • Gotha WD.7 • Constantine II (emperor) • Battle of Lewisburg • Eleanor of Castile • Charles Upham • Soldiers' and Sailors' Arch • Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip • Northrop B-2 Spirit • Battle of Ekiokpagha • Simon Stuart (general) • Ernie Pike • Duncan MacDougall (British Army officer) • 170th Rifle Division (Soviet Union) • Alfred Sully • Dabney Coleman • Benin Air Force • Battle of Mosul (2016–2017) • Crusading movement • Battle of Thorgo • Jarrett Robertson • Michael Robinson (RAF officer) • Rumpler 6B • Tel al-Sultan attack • Charles Keating IV • Soviet cruiser Vladivostok • Sack of Delhi (1757) Good article reassessments 130th Engineer Brigade (United States) • 2008 Mumbai attacks • United States Special Operations Command • Kony 2012 Articles that need... work on referencing and citation (148,088) • only work on referencing and citation (43,198) • work on coverage and accuracy (123,309) • only work on coverage and accuracy (19,798) • work on structure (31,844) • only work on structure (361) • work on grammar (8,173) • only work on grammar (46) • work on supporting materials (32,862) • only work on supporting materials (1,338) • assessment (2) • assessment as lists (0) • project tags fixed (0) • assessment checklists added (1) • assessment checklists completed (4) • task forces added (7) • attention to task force coverage (656)

Suggestion about organizing military helmets

Just want to raise if it makes sense to put an infobox for military helmets such as the M1 and the PASGT? Thinking of a way to make it neat. Ominae (talk) 14:55, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

If you do decide to do so, you need to remember than most military helmets are pre-20th century and design accordingly. Monstrelet (talk) 08:48, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Got that one. Maybe I need to test out a potential infobox syntax. Ominae (talk) 02:10, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

It would be a very useful addition. Perhaps the @WP:MILHIST coordinators: coordinators could help work it up?  Roger Davies ^talk 10:16, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Good idea. Perhaps a slightly more generic infobox that could be used for different types of armo[u]r would be useful? Kirill ^[talk] 14:13, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

On hull/pennant numbers

Pursuant to the previous discussion that ended in no consensus, I've started an RfC at the article titles policy page. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 17:02, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Bumping this up on watchlists. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 23:14, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Invasion of Somalia

There are conflicting statements as to which British division(s) invaded Somalia during World War II. We will focus specifically on Mogadishu on this first part. As of now statements are spilt into three groups: solely Nigerians, a combination of West African, East African, and South African troops, and soley South Africans, the last one seems the most likely to me since they too invaded the former British Somaliland. However, I found a YouTube video (hear me out first since it's from British Pathè) that states that Australian troops where the first to enter. Anyways, the invasion of Somalia as whole seems to have been mainly South Africans and Indians. This is all quite confusing. I would greatly appreciate the help of individuals with knowledge of World War II. AcidSnow (talk) 22:18, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

After checking more sources it seems that it was South Africans that lead the invasion of Somalia and captured Mogadishu. However, I will keep this open to obtain other thoughts on this. AcidSnow (talk) 23:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

1st (West Africa) Infantry Brigade appear to have captured Mogadishu. The motorised Nigerian Brigade of the 1st (African) Division. Due to prevailing attitudes of the era it may have been considered more appropriate to assign such successes to white Commonwealth formations. It is interesting that the sources indicating it was an African formation eminate from neutral (at the time) U.S media. Irondome (talk) 23:58, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Wait, are you saying USA media pre-Civil Rights Movement were more accepting of "Africans" than the Brits? Anyways, I did another check and found that documents published during and after World War II attribute the invasion of Somalia and capturing of Mogadishu to South Africans. These include the Scientia Militaria of South Africa and various book published way after World War II, such as this book detonated to World War II published by the the University of Cambridge in 2015. More importantly, Winston Churchill himself states that Mogadishu was captured by South Africans. So I believe this puts an end to this don't you think? AcidSnow (talk) 01:14, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

No I dont frankly, and please do not put words into my mouth or attempt to spin things. The S/A source merely says "British and South African forces" which proves nothing. And a 1987 SADF publication is perhaps POV. I shall be checking the exact wording of your sources. You appear to be unaware of the concept of sources which are "of their time", be it ideologically or sociologically. Be more aware of the context of sources please. Irondome (talk) 01:20, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

My apologize. I didn't mean to make it sound like you don't know what you're talking about, but rather that I don't understand what you said. You said "at the time" so I wanted to be clear. I had no desire to insult you or anything even close to that. Seeing that you were talking about something can you please explain it to me? Also what is "top spinning"? My apologize if these questions still sound like insults to you. AcidSnow (talk) 01:29, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

No offence is taken, of course. But please do read my points above. due to an edit conflict I have had to refactor them. It is just that one must be aware of wider aspects to near contemporary sources. I am sure we can expore this together. Regards Irondome (talk) 01:36, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

- (e/c) Be careful not to accidentally modify others' posts, as happened earlier. Hit the "Show changes" button before saving edit. -Fnlayson (talk) 01:43, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Lol checking the exact words are fine, especially since I was highlighting them for you. Anyways, what do you think of the statements of Winston Churchill and the later book? AcidSnow (talk) 01:48, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Ol' Winnie eh? (I have the greatest respect for WSC btw ;)), but I like the evidence put forward by Ashley Jackson (historian) published in 2006, which states an assault by the West African Brigade secured Mog. at this point. This conversation could be fun. Regards Irondome (talk) 02:00, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

This is all quite interesting. What about the YouTube video that I showed you? It even shows Australian troops entering the city first lol. May I know that date given by Ashely Jackson? Never mind I found the date given by him. AcidSnow (talk) 02:14, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Its a British official newsreel showing Australian troops entering Mog. We ain't talking BBC News 24 here. No combat scenes of the actual taking of Mog, just what appears to be an Aussie garrison force moving up. About 15 seconds of it out of 4 minutes of footage. It proves nothing. I found the Libyan battle scenes more interesting. Note the heavily modified WW1 pieces being used by us during the bombardment scenes. 60 pdrs, 6" guns and what appear to to be 5.9" howitzers. Some 25 pdrs being used. Shows how we were reliant on elderly ordinance in 41' in Libya. As for proof that the Aussies took Mog? Not a jot. Speak tmrw. Got to be up in 4 hours. Regards Irondome (talk) 02:33, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't say that this proof of anything, rather it shows Australians entering the city. I found it interesting since they are a completely different group. My apologize for keep you up late. AcidSnow (talk) 02:39, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

But it does not disprove that African forces actually took the town, which is why I assumed you included it as a source. Don't worry about keeping me up, it's not you AcidSnow, it's just bloody wikipedia. Catch you tomorrow. Regards Irondome (talk) 02:47, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

British historian Martin Gilbert states that South Africans captured the city. Sadly, the man died relatively recently. AcidSnow (talk) 03:35, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

The relevant volume of the British official history is online here. It states that the 23rd Nigerian Brigade captured Mogadishu unopposed. There were virtually no Australian forces in this theatre (other than one or two RAN warships when the Italians invaded British East Africa, and a tiny number of advisers to Ethiopia). Nick-D (talk) 10:28, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

It was reported on March 1st, 1941 just five days after that South African troops captured the city. So this goes along with the statements made by Winston Churchill and that of Martin Gilbert. AcidSnow (talk) 02:03, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

I also have a Daily Mail report from Tuesday, October 3rd 1944 that the Germans were testing atomic bombs on the Baltic coast. War Papers Fontana Press, London, 1989. ISBN 0-00-637476-X. Do not believe what you read in the contemporary press necessarily AcidSnow. Please read my tips on near contemporary sources above. Please grasp that an African formation took Mog. Irondome (talk) 02:26, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree. The British official history is likely to be the best source here. No weight should be placed on a one paragraph news story which appeared in a suburban Australian newspaper at the time (the paper obviously didn't have first hand reporters in this area!). Nick-D (talk) 02:30, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

That's quite interesting. Anyways, it seems quite odd that historians like Martin Gilbert would "lie", especially since his work comes much after this (the book I linked to is from 2001). The same goes for Winston Churchill. I will be back shortly, if not then tomorrow if I get caught up in something else. AcidSnow (talk) 02:36, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

I assume, AS, that you have read all of the Gilbert's volumes documenting Churchill's war. If you have, then you will know that Gilbert faithfully uses the source materials in the Churchill archives, without using later material? This is quite deliberate. He provides an almost minute-by minute account of what Churchill knew at the time. It was only in Burma some 2 years later that African formations began to be respected for their combat capabilities and stoicism. We are dealing with a different world. A racist world. White Africans were preferable in scoring a military success. The Jewish people were only allowed their own brigade in 1945, in Italy. History can be ugly, and our "heroes" would probably have deeply repugnant views in 2015. To study history, you must accept the warts. A painful reality. Regards Irondome (talk) 03:03, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Why should Jews be segregated off into their own separate brigade? Sounds kind of racist to me. —  Cliftonian (talk)  04:37, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

On re-reading I think I misunderstood your post. If this is so I apologise. —  Cliftonian (talk)  04:52, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

I think that Irondome was referring to the British Army's Jewish Brigade Nick-D (talk) 06:33, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I understood that after re-reading. I must incidentally chip in and say that as somebody who has worked on African military history quite a bit I can definitely confirm that contemporary sources tend to favour "white" units over "black" ones—in my writing I try to do my best to balance for this—but at the same time I think it is important not to fall into the trap of overcompensating. Ugly and racist as it may seem to us today, the fact remains that "black" units such as the King's African Rifles, Nigerian Brigade, Rhodesian African Rifles etc were overwhelmingly trained, officered and led in the field by whites. It seems somewhat unfair to me to deny the command element any credit at all for what the units achieved. —  Cliftonian (talk)  10:48, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Moyse-Bartlett's history of the King's African Rifles (Volume 2 pp 512–513) says that a platoon of C Coy 1/3 KAR was with the lead elements of the Nigerian Brigade when they reached the outskirts of Mog, but a patrol of infantry and armoured cars found the town undefended. Stapleton's Military History of Africa (Vol 1 p 212) says Mogadishu was captured by the motorised Nigerian brigade of the 11th African Division. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 02:47, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits at Fall of Singapore

There has been some recent extensive editing by an IP, who appears to seriously have it in for Australian forces regarding their conduct during the defence. The sources appear to be a generalist history of Singapore and the transcript of a TV documentary. Can someone take a look? Irondome (talk) 01:24, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

William Scurry

Given the recent addition of some important information that corrects certain previously held erroneous views in relation to the self-firing "drip rifle" (or "pop off rifle") at Anzac Cove, etc., are there particular, relevant additions and embellishments that need to be made to William Scurry -- or does there need to be, also, in addition to the article on William Scurry, an independent article on the "drip rifle"?220.239.181.181 (talk) 08:05, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Request for review of National Association of Army Nurses of the Civil War

The author of National Association of Army Nurses of the Civil War would like a review of that article by editors familiar with the American Civil War. Roches (talk) 20:56, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Requesting Peer Review of No Gun Ri Massacre Article

Hi to all,

I was looking at No Gun Ri Massacre, and I was wondering if anyone -- preferably uninvolved in the article -- would be interested in conducting a peer review on it. It has been the site of some pretty intense disputes, particularly concerning some of the sources used, but the dust seems to have settled now. Still, it would be good to get a fresh perspective.

Thanks!

GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:19, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

The Battle of the Alamo being re-evaluated

In response to recent edits and questions on the Talk:Battle of the Alamo, a framework is being laid down by Karanacs for a detailed examination of the article's current state. The end goal is to get it up to the standard of Texas Revolution. Although the article achieved FA status in 2009, several thousand edits have happened since then. — Maile (talk) 19:41, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Discussion on the start date of the Somali Civil War

A discussion has started regarding the appropriate start date of the Somali Civil War to note in the article's infobox. Wider community input would be appreciated. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:53, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: - thankyou. Basically rebellions started in the mid 1980s but some users are advocating we use the date 1991, which does have some cites support it, but is the date the dictator fell(!!). There are also serious concerns with the views, possibly POV, of a major contributor, User:Middayexpress. An RfC was previously raised over his conduct (Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Middayexpress) but the final decision was that the forum was possibly not appropriate for the concern (a range of other options such as AN/I were suggested). For this reason, comments would also be very welcome at the discussion immediately below the date discussion, which tries to focus on perceived POV. Buckshot06 (talk) 04:41, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Proxy War Needs Reevaluated

The article proxy war recently was overhauled. Due to the significant changes, I think the article should be reevaluated to see if it fits into a different class now. If somebody could take care of that, I would appreciate it. Compassionate727 (talk) 13:36, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

UNPROFOR casualties

I've started a discussion at Talk: Bosnian War about the number of casualties that UNPROFOR suffered. There seems to be some disagreement between sources, with some stating almost twice the number specified on the UN website. Input would be welcome. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:49, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Rejewski, cryptography

Is there anyone here who is familiar with cryptography? Marian Rejewski is at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Marian Rejewski/archive1, and is close to a save, but we need help (see comments on the FAR). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:21, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Military truck infobox

Hello, I'd like to know if there are any guidelines on which infobox (Template:Infobox weapon or Template:Infobox automobile) should be used for military trucks. I've noticed another editor asked the same question before on Template talk:Infobox weapon, without answer.—Cloverleaf II (talk) 14:28, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editor

User:Citadel48 keeps disrupting Bijeljina massacre (an A-Class article) and stubbornly refuses to understand what is problematic with his/her edits . I've run out of patience and really don't feel like getting to an edit war with an inexperienced user. Someone take over from here. 23 editor (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

User:23 editor has very strong views on what needs and does not need to be included. With views that strong, he or she must consider self publishing or increase their level of tolerance towards alternative views on what is important and relevant. The most disappointing is the lack of basic competence resulting in challenging CNN and BBC type sources on alleged copyright infringement grounds. The user should get basic training in concepts such as fair use doctrine and should not be given editorial functions. Editorial rights are a responsibility that requires a level of maturity. tolerance and competence that seem to be lacking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Citadel48 (talk • contribs) 19:14, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

ARBMAC warning given, I've also attempted to point out the issues with youtube links and other problematic edits. We'll see what transpires. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 00:45, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Today's featured article/May 19, 2015

A summary of one of Milhist's Featured Articles will appear on the Main Page soon. The WP:FAC nominator (a former Milhist coord) hasn't edited in years, so I'm hoping someone else will have a look. I had to squeeze the summary down to around 1200 characters; was there anything I left out that anyone would like to see put back in? I'd appreciate it if someone could check the article one more time before its day on the Main Page. - Dank (push to talk) 20:19, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Good Lists

For Lists, most WikiProjects have no quality assessment classifications between List-class and FL-class. MILHIST is exceptional in that CL, BL and AL are all provided - but there is no class between BL and AL, equivalent to GA (see WP:MHA#SCALE). There is a proposal to set up a new classification level, Good List, which would fit into that gap. Please add your comments there. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:30, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Request for Comment

Hi everybody,

I'm looking for some editors who might willing to leave their sentiment and opinion to following case: User: Pensiveneko is engaging in mutiple webpages, with the commonly tenor to remove all the iffy things that might not fit his POV within a week. See: 1 (I will remove Bias / Opinion) 2,3, 4.

The User is name-calling serious and reputable publications of scholars into an inappropriate magnitude, because of this, I felt responsible to report his behavior to an Administrator: Nick-D See our conversation: 1

I appreciate and welcome further contributions. Thank you. Regards LikePancakes (talk) 12:56, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Mate, there is no requirement to create a log-in, but some editors are likely to take you far more seriously if you do. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 14:17, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I've created now this account. Going to replace my ip-sign on the talk pages. Regards, Ben. LikePancakes (talk) 14:56, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Request for comment (WWI)

Should Jabal Shammar be listed as a Central Powers co-belligerent during World War I?
See Template_talk:World_War_I_infobox#RfC_(14_April_2015). —Srnec (talk) 15:52, 4 May 2015 (UTC)