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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 70.115.211.122 (talk) at 11:59, 9 August 2006 (→‎Inclusion of Russia in the lead). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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"Hamas is known chiefly for its suicide bombings"="Israel is known chiefly for its occupation of Palestinian territories"

But I bet a lot of 'Admins' here would have a real problem if I wrote that in Israel! BUT of course I would be wrong to write that as Israel is known chiefly for providing a safe haven for world Jewry...but isn't it then fair to say Hamas is known chiefly for fighting the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories?? (some might say Illegal occupation) see United Nations Security Council Resolution 242

Why the double-standards? Or are all the critics right in saying that Wikipedia is extremely pro-Israeli? --Yas121 22:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't blame it in the admins, but on systemic bias. Palestinians have other things to do than agaiwritting on Wikipedia, while, probably for the misery of all this region (including Israel), all of the world's opinion focus on them. English Wikipedia would probably be pro-Israeli due to the sheer amount of pro-Israeli contributors, not because of an admin problem (or the problem is lot worse than what I thought, but I don't think so). That's why I've made calls earlier to try to find a neutral intro, so we could all stand by it before anonymous vandalism. But the other party refused, because they know they outnumber us five to one. It is a bit lame that, ultimately, a political article relies on this, but that's how it works. All this said, I find it strange that even pro-Israelis refuse to admit, for the sake of the encyclopedia, that mentioning Russia is not only a "POV problem", that is something concerning our personal opinions, but more likely something that is relevant, because it's a member of the Quartet on the Middle East and, although we can surely say that the Quartet in question isn't doing much, we're not going to understand things better if we do "just as if" Russia went along the others one. Tazmaniacs 00:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the second paragraph back to saying that Hamas is known mainly for their suicide bombings and other attacks against Israeli civilians, because that is what the cited references say. There is an attempt being made by some to sanitize Hamas's terrorist record, and that is what is POV. 6SJ7 23:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is very obvious that this article rather is a pamphlet against Hamas than a neutral, balanced desription of the organization and its critics. The focus is entirely on Hamas' violent activities, despite the fact (cited way down in the article) that the vast majority of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities. I concur completely with Tazmaniacs that the problem is due to the systemic bias - obviously Israeli editors do not notice the welfare work of Hamas, but are touched by its violent activities. Tazmaniacs and other users have done a great effort to seek a compromise based consensus giving a balanced view of Hamas. But unfortunately a certain number of editors have refused to enter the debate, and insisted on the one-sided focus on Hamas' alleged terrorism. As long as this is the case we should at least keep the POV tag on the top of the article. Bertilvidet 23:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting you should mention Hamas's "Educational" programs such as training orphans to become suicide bombers. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/5209466.stm hope that helps put the "social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities" in context for you Bertilvidet.Hypnosadist 00:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You should be more concerned about the Israelis teaching their children pen skills by signing messages on bombs that they launch at Lebanon that have killed over 600 civlians! (Israeli writing lessons for kids) what a great education Israel provides for its kids!! Feel ashamed of your comments now?!? 82.111.242.89 03:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not Ashamed at all! I'm not (Personal attack removed) to.Hypnosadist 10:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please remain civil. Cool down. Cheers! Tazmaniacs 16:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
PS i think "Hamas is known chiefly for its suicide bombings" is unencyclopedic as that is not sourced and not provable.Hypnosadist 00:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
An appropriate intro would be, "Among wikipedia editors, Hamas is known chiefly for its suicide bombings." Romablog

It seems dificult to conduct a fruitful debate. If ever attempts will be made to reach a consensus on how to reach POV and in countering the bias, please leave a message on my talk page. Bertilvidet 16:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Avoid self-reference. As has been lenghtly argued, the appropriate would be to say something along the line: "Chiefly known in the Palestinian territories for its social programs & struggle against Israeli occupation [these last four words being taboo for most editors here, despite UN Resolution 242 in force since 1967, but who cares?], the Hamas is best known abroad for its sponsoring of suicide bombings since the Second Intifada". Again, it would be so nice to be able to find at least an introduction (not even talking about the entry in itself) which all Wikipedians could stand for against exterior vandalism, but it is quite clear that several editors here:
  • refuse to include Russia's non-inscription of the Hamas as a terrorist group, although Russia is a member of the Quartet on the Middle East and hence a player much more important than Australia (or Zimbabwe, sorry for Australian people out there! — or for Zimbabwe, for that matter!).
  • refuse to even imagine that some Wikipedian editors might not agree with them and argue that it is perfectly legitimate to speak about Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories, although that is not only a fact since the 1967 Six-Day War, but even entered international law through UN Resolution 242 above mentionned.
  • The list could go on, and has been done earlier this year... Tazmaniacs 16:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Bertilvidet, what debate? what's the point? we discuss, we complain, we argue but what's the point as long as all the Admins here are extremely pro-Israeli (some are prob working at israeli press office) and they just revert everything and then threaten to and do Ban! I mean has any one with a neutral POV actually read this article?? it's the kind of story Israelis tell their kids at bedtime to scare them! Last time I checked someone said this was an encyclopedia! And it's a joke having all these other languages in wikipedia! seems we only really need English and Hebrew! as no one else going to take it seriously!

So really it's a useless/time-wasting debate! 82.111.242.89 19:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

At Talk:Hamas#Finding_a_consensual_and_NPOV_decision_for_the_intro some very constructive attempts to find an introduction we could all agree upon. Let's keep the debate focused, for a first time, on what to include in and what to exclude from the intro. Let's keep abstract debates about the role of education policies in creating nationalism and other interesting debates out. Bertilvidet 19:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hamas's welfare provision is mentioned above its attacks on Isreali civilians in the article but you manage to misreprisent this as "The focus is entirely on Hamas' violent activities, despite the fact (cited way down in the article) that the vast majority of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities." what a joke.Hypnosadist 20:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Your joke did not amuse me. Have another look at the intro, and tell me if you really believe there is more focus on Hamas' welfare provisions than its violent activities. Bertilvidet 20:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Of course more focus is given to hamas' war crimes than its welfare program, as it should. It's mentioned in the intro, because i want to know how much (dollar value) welfare for a Palistinian is equal to an human life in your ballance of welfare/death POV? And at this point i'd like to say that the USA is the largest provider of aid to the middle east, under your system how many people does that mean they get to kill? Also given that Human rights watch thinks that some of the "education" is a war crime commited against the youth of palistine (Use of child soldiers) how much credit does it deserve?Hypnosadist 22:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear all, I didn't start this discussion to try and determine who's right and who's wrong between the Palestinians and the Israelis (That's a question for the ages). Anyone with any sense knows no side is wholly "innocent"...both sides have committed some despicable acts and both seem to be instilling their hatred in the younger generation (So Hypnosadist your jokes and quips neither amuse nor help). And of course both sides have been condemned by the international community time and time again . So it's fair to say that Hamas and Israel both have their supporters and critics. It is also fair to assume that an encyclopedia that claims to be neutral and boasts about its NPOV should not take sides (I agree a certain amount of bias is expected). This gives the entire encyclopedia a bad name! I think a good one would represent/show both sides where as this article is clearly interested in only damming Hamas. Even the Israeli newspapers/websites don't begin their articles by firstly meticulously naming every single country that lists Hamas as a terrorist group (just naming US, EU and Israel is the norm somewhere in the article) as they know no one is going to take them seriously otherwise and see it as just Israeli propaganda. Strangely when I try to point out that the other big international players China and Russia don't agree with these lists it's considered POV by the Admins here and am threatened with a ban almost every time!
SECONDLY, "Hamas chiefly known for suicide bombings.." Look at it this way ask Israeli critics about Israel 1st thing they say "Illegal occupation of Palestinian lands and Illegal settlements.." ask a supporter "Safe haven for world Jewry, a true democracy in the region" Ask a supporter of Hamas "Legitimate resistance against brutal military occupation, helping the Palestinian people" critics "suicide attacks, destruction of Israel". Simply put we have to show all of the above! It's just as wrong to say Hamas are chiefly known for suicide attacks as it's Israel are chiefly known for their military occupation. But any addition or indication of the occupation is considered POV, I've tried saying Hamas was formed because of it, DELETED POV. I've tried saying something like "...Hamas are known for their resistance/uncompromising stance against the Israeli occupation that involved suicide attacks etc etc" DELTED POV Can someone kindly point me to the source that states that's what they are chiefly known for? We have gone to great lengths to have a full list of Hamas attacks against Israelis in a separate section would it not be also fair to have a section about all the welfare programs they have set up for the Palestinian people when all the aid is frozen and most civil servants have not been paid. How about a section on all the Israeli assassinations of Hamas members that have been condemned internationally and almost always also kill civilians!?!
Al final, yes you can Rev me Block me etc but in the long run you are only ruining Wikipedia and if I might add hurting Israel (but that's another long story :-)
For those who still don't understand what I'm trying to say maybe this will help...
  • Encyclopedia: a book or set of books containing many articles arranged which deal either with the whole of human knowledge or with a particular part of it
  • Propaganda: information, ideas or opinions, often only giving one part of an argument, which are published with the intention of influencing people's opinions. Yas121 03:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
General Assembly resolutions are about as useful as toilet paper when it comes to Israel, considering the Arab League can get anything it wants through there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtrainor (talk • contribs)
Hmm I feel perhaps an example would better serve. OK Look @ this Baruch Goldstein, an US-Israeli Zionist mass murderer and terrorist who in 1994 opened random fire with a machine-gun on Muslim worshipers in a mosque during Friday prayers murdering 29 and injuring 125. He gave no reason for his actions, no apparent motive. Sick and despicable, correct! almost the entire world including Israeli government, Jewish groups etc strongly condemned his actions. OK now look at his Wikipedia entry he has an entire separate section labelled Supporters!! where justifications for his actions are stated. There is plenty of info and detail about the violent retaliations from the Palestinians and other Muslims, even in New York! that took place afterwards. Now look again at Hamas, it has millions of supporters around the world (Yes and critics!) is under military occupation, many of it's supporters claim it's a legitimate resistance movement...The word supporters does not even appear on Hamas' entire article let alone their views! There is no mention of the violent retaliations by the Israelis the collective punishment of the Palestinians after Hamas attacks etc etc

PS. Incidentally I was banned for 24hrs for trying to add Baruch Goldstein to the category anti-Arab people! PPS. I do strongly disagree with having a Category anti-semitic, anti-arab people etc it's a joke! I was just trying to make a point. --Yas121 Ok lets have a look at this "Supporters!! where justifications for his actions are stated" section then, oh it's his best mate saying he wanted stop the peace process thats not a justification its a reason for his actions and the rabbi at his funeral say he was upset at the "Humiliation" is just the Victom Mentality that both sides use to justify the killings. Anyone reading the article would be in no doubt as to the type of person Baruch Goldstein was ie a racist mass murderer. What are you complaining about?. Put a supporters of hamas section in this article if you want, i wont delete it.Hypnosadist 11:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't insert original research into simple verified statements. That Hamas is chiefly known for its suicide bombings is made clear by the sources in the footnotes; that those sources are "critics" is something made up by Wikipedia editors. Jayjg (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section

WP:LEAD states that the lead section of an article should be 3-4 paragraphs if the article itself is over 30,000 characters. Since this article is almost 70,000 characters, it obviously needs a lead of at least 4 paragraphs. Please follow Wikipedia guidelines, and keep the lead material of a reasonable length, rather than burying the information in the body. Jayjg (talk) 15:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well I hope this makes you and others happy. It still reads very pro-Israel but at least it's a start

"Hamas (Arabic: حركة حماس; acronym: Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, or Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or "Islamic Resistance Movement") is a Palestinian Sunni Islamist militant organization that currently forms the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people.[1] It is listed as a terrorist organization by Australia,[2] Canada,[3] [4] the United Kingdom,[5] the European Union,[6] Israel, and the United States,[7] and is banned in Jordan.[8]

Hamas has both a political and a military wing. The military wing of Hamas, formed in 1992, is known as the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades to commemorate Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, the father of modern Arab resistance, killed by the British in 1935. Armed Hamas units also sometimes refer to themselves as "Students of Ayyash", "Students of the Engineer", or "Yahya Ayyash Units",[9] to commemorate Yahya Ayyash, an early Hamas bomb-maker assassinated by Israel in 1996.[10]

Since the death of the former Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) leader Yasser Arafat Hamas' political wing has entered and won many local elections in Gaza, Qalqilya and Nablus. In January 2006 Hamas won a surprise victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, with the ruling Fatah party trailing on 43.[11]

As Hamas keeps many of its members a secret, it has an unknown number of active members but tens of thousands of supporters and sympathisers. Up to 40,000 people rallied in Gaza City in December 2002 to mark Hamas' 15th anniversary."

Those are interesting details for the article, but they certainly don't belong in the lead section, which summarizes the most important and salient features of Hamas. Feel free to add them in more relevant sections. Jayjg (talk) 04:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Instances of biased information in the lead, if any, should be addressed, not moved to less prominent sections. --tickle me 13:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Jayjg, how on earth can we have an introduction almost half page long without a single positive thing said about Hamas or even a mention of its supporters and then claim that it is not bias and our POV???!!?? Yas121 14:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Its support is mentioned, and it's a really bad idea to start a lead of an article by stating what we don't know. The real question is, how can you possibly have an introduction that doesn't mention the most salient and uniquely identifiable facts about Hamas, such as its fame for suicide bombings, and its purpose, which is the destruction of Israel? Trivia about exactly who various internal groups are named after belongs in the body, the raison d'ětre and fundamental tactic of Hamas belong in the lead. If you want to add something positive to the current lead, I'm certainly open to suggestions. Jayjg (talk) 15:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OK good I agree the trivia about how they name the various units is not the best for intro...and yes their stated goals ie destruction of Israel should be there and their suicide bombings, although don't you think saying that's what they are chiefly known for a POV? If it is from the 'sources' then can you please point to the one that states that? I can't find anything like that anywhere...everywhere else they are chiefly known for fighting the Israeli occupation. What I mean is that is over all what they are known for and yes there have been times when they have been chiefly known for the suicide bombings just like they are currently chiefly known for kidnapping an Israeli soldier.
Are you telling me you haven't even bothered reading the references provided? Yet you've been commenting on, reverting, and modifying the text as if you had? Every single one of them made it clear! I've copied out the text from each one, and added even more. Please stop wasting my time. Jayjg (talk) 17:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OF COURSE I bothered to read the references, why on earth do you think I suggested we compromise that say that Hamas is best known by its critics...."!! Yas121 17:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, you clearly didn't read the references, since you stated their suicide bombings, although don't you think saying that's what they are chiefly known for a POV? If it is from the 'sources' then can you please point to the one that states that? I can't find anything like that anywhere... when, in fact, there were at least 5 sources which stated that in the footnote directly attached to the claim. You have been wasting my time, and now you're dissembling, which wastes my time even more. Jayjg (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I think following is vital in the intro as it explains how their current position was reached, their size and how they are seen by their supporters. So can I go ahead and put this in the Lead? anyone here object? (with good reason)

"Since the death of the former Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) leader Yasser Arafat Hamas' political wing has entered and won many local elections in Gaza, Qalqilya and Nablus. In January 2006 Hamas won a surprise victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, with the ruling Fatah party trailing on 43.[12]

Hamas has an unknown number of active official members but tens of thousands of supporters and sympathisers who see it as a legitimate resistance movement fighting the Israeli occupation. Up to 50,000 people rallied in Gaza City in December 2002 to mark Hamas' 15th anniversary.[13]"

Why would information from a rally in 2002 belong in the lead? And were is ths source for the "see it as a legitimate resistance movement... etc.? It wasn't in that link. Jayjg (talk) 17:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Did you bother to read the reference provided? ...it is seen by its supporters as a legitimate fighting force defending Palestinians from a brutal military occupation.[1] It is mentioned, like all good articles, in the 2nd paragraph along with countries that have branded them terrorist org. I'd be more than happy to word it exactly like that if you want!

As for the rally it was Hamas' 15th anniversary! and shows the kind of support they have and was shown again by thier election victory. So can you please tell me what exactly is the problem with adding the above passage to the intro? does anyone else here have an opinion? Yas121 17:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The link provided was this: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/10/world/main521360.shtml , which says nothing about it. So yes, I did read it, and if you want to make a claim, you need to provide a proper source. As for a rally in 2002, it's hardly relevant to the lead of a section in 2006. It's trivia, not encyclopedic information, and you are not using this talk page in good faith. Jayjg (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes sorry I thought you were referring the other link, that link (the relevant one) was directly above at least 2 times. As for using the talk page in good faith, well I don't think you are using your powers as an Admin in good faith....Look this really isn't working, there is no great debate going on here as I had hoped about this article rather just useless attempts to get your (Jayjg) approval. Well this is wikipedia, I dont think you are the judge of what goes in. So is there some kind of voting system here? ie lets say we want to add Russia in the list and you don't can we vote on it some how, so that would make it fair? --Yas121 20:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to the link that followed, as all references are supposed to. And since I've been editing here for 2 years, and have made 40,000 edit, I suspect I'm rather a better judge of what's appropriate for a Wikipedia article than you are. I'm open to reasonable inclusions, but not crap. And, by the way, I haven't used my admin powers on this article. As for Russia, I'll start a vote for you. Jayjg (talk) 22:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Russia again?

Tazmaniacs, the consensus was that we wouldn't be listing all dozens of countries who don't list Hamas as a terrorist organization, but rather would simply be listing the small number that do. Please respect that. Jayjg (talk) 15:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Which consensus? Numerous editors disagree with your opinion, Jayjg, please also respect that. Again, the point is not to list "dozen of countries", but you must admit that being part of the Quartet on the Middle East, Russia is an important player on that. Why doesn't it list Hamas as a terrorist group? It has no such problems when dealing with Chechnya... Shouldn't it list it? Would that be more efficient, from the current Israeli government's point of view, than the current state? Or would it backfire, and, with this blocade that doesn't call itself by its name, only favorize religious radicalization in the Palestinian territories? Who knows? But whatever your POV — doesn't matter if you feel Russia is right, or should to the contrary list it as a terrorist org — you must admit that if they did list it, the situation would not be the same. Russia is not Zimbabwe. For the sake of..., this is a fact, not an opinion or a value judgment! Tazmaniacs 15:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are all sorts of reasons why Russia might not designate Hamas as a terrorist organization, most having to do with issues entirely unrelated to Hamas. In any event, it's not up to us to speculate, or to imply that their failure to do so is significant. As I recall, there were two or three editors who wanted to include Russia, most new, and with few edits, and 5 or 6 longstanding editors who disagreed with its inclusion. You haven't come up with any new reasons for including it. Please get consensus before inserting it. Jayjg (talk) 15:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, I haven't seen any guideline stating that "longstanding editors" tell the truth more often than editors with "few edits". Second, I've personally noticed a fair amount of person who agree in including Russia. Third, we are not speculating nor is it Original Research to state that Hamas is not on Russia's list. And a five-years-old would understand that it would change a bit the situation for Hamas. Please get consensus before excluding it. Tazmaniacs 15:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The issue isn't about "telling the truth", but about understanding policy. Unsurprisingly, new editors who've only edited 4 or 5 articles, often don't understand it well. The "fair amount of person" supporting the Russia inclusion turned out to be a small number of mostly new editors. As for Original Research, the issue is not whether Russia actually includes Hamas on its terrorist list, but rather whether or not this is significant. The constant inclusion of the statement that "however, Russia does not state it is terrorist" is merely an attempt to "introduce an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position" which is something WP:NOR forbids. Tazmaniacs, we know Russia does not list Hamas as a terrorist organization, the lead is already clear on that - so why do you feel the need to highlight Russia specifically, among hundreds of other countries? It is because you feel it is significant in some way - you are trying to make an argument here. Please respect policy and get consensus before re-introducing this material. Jayjg (talk) 16:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Implying that Russia's abstention is relevant is OR, even if true. It may only be mentioned in context, as opinion by relevant sources. --tickle me 13:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And implying that the US are relevant is not OR? Tazmaniacs 14:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We list the small number of countries that actually identify Hamas as terrorist; all others, of course, do not. Please answer the questions. Jayjg (talk) 15:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's twisting words: Both Russia and the US are relevant, nobody denies that. What the US wants, or doesn't want, follows from the sources cited and thus has not to be guessed at. I'm talking of Russia's abstention. That of the billion things Russia does not do, or could do, this one thing is relevant, has to be sourced - and certainly not to a wikipedian's assertion. --tickle me 18:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

==A much less bias Lead section is desperately needed==

I suggest we end these silly Rev and Edit wars with each day a new reason, and actually discuss on a proper, mature and unbias lead section. I'd be happy if we manage to get a section that is only 70/30 in favour of Israel! Anyway here is what I have...Yes it does begin by pointing out who Hamas are then pointing out ALL countries who list them as a terrorist organisation and no mention of other countries who don't share that view. It goes on to describe the organisation, their military and politcal wings. Only mentioning their supporters in the last sentence and of course ref are provided for all claims... Pleaes I challange all of you to point out the POV in this and if you can't then just let Wikipedia be what it was meant to be a free encyclopedia OPEN FOR ALL to contribute to regardless of race and religion!

" Hamas (Arabic: حركة حماس; acronym: Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, or Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or "Islamic Resistance Movement") is a Palestinian Sunni Islamist militant organization that currently forms the democratically elected government of the Palestinian National Authority.[1] It is listed as a terrorist organization by Australia,[14] Canada,[15] [16] the United Kingdom,[5] the European Union,[6] Israel, and the United States,[7] and is banned in Jordan.[8]

Hamas has both a political and a military wing. The military wing of Hamas, formed in 1992, is known as the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades to commemorate Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, the father of modern Arab resistance, killed by the British in 1935. Armed Hamas units also sometimes refer to themselves as "Students of Ayyash", "Students of the Engineer", or "Yahya Ayyash Units",[17] to commemorate Yahya Ayyash, an early Hamas bomb-maker assassinated by Israel in 1996.[18]

Since the death of the former Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) leader Yasser Arafat Hamas' political wing has entered and won many local elections in Gaza, Qalqilya and Nablus. In January 2006 Hamas won a surprise victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, with the ruling Fatah party trailing on 43.[19]

Hamas has an unknown number of active official members but tens of thousands of supporters and sympathisers who see it as a legitimate resistance movement fighting the Israeli occupation. Up to 50,000 people rallied in Gaza City in December 2002 to mark Hamas' 15th anniversary.[13]"

I agree with your efforts. We should find an intro everyone could stand for. IMO, it should include Russia which is a member of the Quartet on the Middle East. However, sentence "to commemorate Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, the father of modern Arab resistance, killed by the British in 1935. Armed Hamas units also sometimes refer to themselves as "Students of Ayyash", "Students of the Engineer", or "Yahya Ayyash Units"" is probably not needed in an intro to Hamas. Concerning the last sentence, I think actually it would be nice inserting Hamas into the Palestinian context (relations with Fatah & others). Tazmaniacs 15:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I do not accept your claim that Wikipedia discriminates based on "race or religion", and will not respond to any sections or suggestions premised on that claim. Jayjg (talk) 15:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But would you consider once trying to find an intro which we might agree upon? I'd like to think so. Tazmaniacs 15:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I won't be commenting in this section. Jayjg (talk) 16:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Good starting point. I think the dates of the formation of the differnet wings not just the military wing should be added to the intro to give the evolution of this organisation and shape to the following article. And hamas's relations with Fatah and other groups should be mentioned. And the notable fact Russia has not made it a proscibed terrorist organisation. It is not OR to place this fact in the article, its only OR to say why they did not do that(ie hamas hasn't killed any russians that i know of), it is very USA centered to think such a powerful and important world power as russia is not notable. Given the arguments raised to stop russia being placed in this article, Jordan should not be in the introduction unless a notable source says so. Its OR under your rules to have it there to say look a muslim/middle eastern country banned them as well.Hypnosadist 15:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Jayjg, Please don't twist my words, I said wikipedia was meant to be a free encyclopedia OPEN FOR ALL to contribute to regardless of race and religion and that's how we should have it meaning don't change that. Yas121 16:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There was only one reason for bringing up "race and religion". I will not comment on content in this section. Jayjg (talk) 17:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of Russia in the lead

Should mention of Russia's [2] not designating Hamas as a terrorist group be included in lead?

Support:
  1. Hypnosadist 23:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Yas121 23:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)::[reply]


Oppose:
  1. Jayjg (talk) 22:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. IronDuke 22:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. TewfikTalk 23:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 23:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. 6SJ7 23:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7.  tasc wordsdeeds 04:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. --tickle me 05:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Nunya
The problem is not only of editorial consensus, but of factual accuracy. Russia is a member of the Quartet on the Middle East and its inclusion or not of Hamas is certainly relevant. If it changed it would be noted. If Russia is not included, than why should the States be included? This is ridiculous. Australia is irrelevant, as is Zimbabwe. Voting here is displaying an amazing moquery of democracy. If you want democracy, start by respecting other POV and by allowing various POV from expressing themselves. This is liberal democracy. Please cease this mocquery of democracy and adress the real issues. Tazmaniacs 07:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Please cease this mocquery of democracy and adress the real issues." Ok, you asked for it. You want Russia included NOT because they sit on some silly, irrelevant council that no one cares about, but because they are the only signifcant exception to the opinion that Hamas is a terrorist organization. The fact that you fail to admit this when it is clear to the (much too) polite editors is especially infuriating, in light of how obviously disingenuous you are. So, DEAL WITH THAT, and THEN we'll discuss why including a country that hasn't done something is necessary, when the point is made simply and clearly by their omission.
  1. ^ a b "BBC NEWS" Hamas sweeps to election victory
  2. ^ Listing of Terrorist Organisations, Australian Government Attorney-General's Department, 27 January 2006. Accessed July 31, 2006.
  3. ^ Keeping Canadians Safe, Public Security and Emergency Preparedness Canada, National Security, Listed entities. Accessed July 31, 2006.
  4. ^ "Hamas is listed as a terrorist group in the Criminal Code of Canada." Tibbetts, Janice. Canada shuts out Hamas ,The Montreal Gazette, March 30, 2006.
  5. ^ a b "UK Home Office"
  6. ^ a b "Council Decision" Council of the European Union, December 21, 2005
  7. ^ a b "Country reports on terrorism", U.S. State Dept., April 27, 2005.
  8. ^ a b Karmi, Omar. "What does the Hamas victory mean for nearby Jordan?", The Daily Star, February 18, 2006
  9. ^ Kushner, Harvey W. (2002). Encyclopedia of Terrorism, p.160 Sage Publications, ISBN 0761924086
  10. ^ "Who are Hamas?". BBC News. January 26, 2006.
  11. ^ "Who are Hamas?". BBC News. January 26, 2006.
  12. ^ "Who are Hamas?". BBC News. January 26, 2006.
  13. ^ a b "CBS NEWS" March Marks 2nd Intifata Anniversary
  14. ^ Listing of Terrorist Organisations, Australian Government Attorney-General's Department, 27 January 2006. Accessed July 31, 2006.
  15. ^ Keeping Canadians Safe, Public Security and Emergency Preparedness Canada, National Security, Listed entities. Accessed July 31, 2006.
  16. ^ "Hamas is listed as a terrorist group in the Criminal Code of Canada." Tibbetts, Janice. Canada shuts out Hamas ,The Montreal Gazette, March 30, 2006.
  17. ^ Kushner, Harvey W. (2002). Encyclopedia of Terrorism, p.160 Sage Publications, ISBN 0761924086
  18. ^ "Who are Hamas?". BBC News. January 26, 2006.
  19. ^ "Who are Hamas?". BBC News. January 26, 2006.
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