Talk:Electronic cigarette

A note

I made a few changes to the article (mostly Lead section) today. Most of it was stylistic, merging sentences, rephrasing, moving stuff around, but I hope people will review them for any unintentional errors I might have made. ~Awilley (talk) 21:27, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, most of the changes look good. Is there a reason the phrase "but reduced voltage e-cigarettes produce very low levels of formaldehyde" was removed? P Walford (talk) 16:19, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. On the voltage phrase, I was trying to make it more accessible to normal readers and take out redundancy. So instead of talking about high and low "voltage", which might alienate some readers ("what's a voltage and how do I reduce it?") I put it in terms of high and low "power". The sentence "Using later-generation e-cigarettes on high power can generate more formaldehyde than tobacco does" implies that using them at low power doesn't. It's not necessary IMO to follow that up with "but using e-cigarettes on normal power doesn't generate very much formaldehyde." You can add it back if you want. ~Awilley (talk) 18:25, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Voltage is more specific than power since higher power may also be caused by an increase in current. Sizeofint (talk) 02:42, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

The increase in voltage is accompanied by an increase in current. The Resistance is fixed, the device can increase the voltage (sometimes displayed as wattage increase but it's the same step up voltage process). It's a power increase and the mechanism usually used is voltage change. That said as here is an interdevice comparison you can have power changes for other reasons and strictly wattage is more closely related to the formaldehyde issue, most directly it's coil temperature. SPACKlick (talk) 02:49, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

@Doc James: Regarding this I did a quick search of the archives and found a lot of RfCs, but I couldn't find the one you're talking about. I don't doubt your word, but would you mind pointing me to this particular one?

On whether Health is more notable than History, I would say that the latter is more important for an encyclopedia, but I can understand why you, in particular, would disagree with that. In any case, I don't think "notable" is a good criteria for determining order. That should be done logically, preferably chronologically, with the reader in mind. To me it makes sense to start with the general introduction, then talk about the history, and then talk about safety, health, cultural impact, etc. I realize all articles will do it differently, but I looked up the most closely related article I could think of (cigarette) and it fits that pattern fairly well.

Last point: If you think that Healthy/Safety is indeed the most important thing, you should be trying to end the Lead section with the paragraph on health/safety, since that's the last thing most visitors will read. See our article on serial position effect for why that might be a good thing. ~Awilley (talk) 04:47, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

It is normal in health-related articles to put History much lower than on many other types, and I think this is absolutely correct. Few readers of pancreatic cancer will be very interested in the history, I suspect. Putting history generally first is a WP tradition, but one I think we overuse, especially when the section is long. Cigarette should probably change too - at present the "Health effects" section begins at (on my m/c) the 16th screen down, which is downright bizarre, but at least that story is no secret. Certainly we should not use that as a model here - I think a very different crowd edits there. I think the RFC the Doc refers to was a general one at the MED project,not specific to this article. Johnbod (talk) 05:53, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

@Awilley There have been a few RFC's on page order. Archive 16, Never closed and archive 17 no consensus and archive 22 no consensus, I may have missed the one DJ is referring to. The topic keeps coming up every so often. I wonder if a list somewhere near the top of all the RFC's this page has had would be helpful to avoid this kind of thing in the future. AlbinoFerret 06:29, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Albino for providing the links. The order has been controversial. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:13, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Good heavens, let's not start that up again. There are more significant improvements that can be made without starting another RfC to change something as mundane as the section order. ~Awilley (talk) 17:03, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Glanze Redux

Just listened to an interesting 5 mins or so feature on Glanze's recent paper (see above) on today's More or Less (radio programme), a BBC radio programme covering statistics etc. Some of you should be able to pick it up online from the website linked at the article, starts about 5 mins in. Linda Bauld, Ann McNeill, Peter Hajek (co-author of the Cochrane Review - "grossly misleading" he says), Robert West ("mashed together very different studies") - all saying the paper should not have been published, as did an un-named person who peer-reviewed it for the Lancet sub-journal. Glanze & the editor unrepentent. Johnbod (talk) 16:52, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

That's what you get when you mix activism with science. I'm sure it will be straightened out in coming reviews.--TMCk (talk) 18:11, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Well from a WP stance, as i mentioned earlier[1] its simple: The Glantz paper is a secondary WP:MEDRS review, thus reliable and can be used. The More or Less program is interesting - but cannot really be used. If the paper is flawed then we as WP editors must wait until it gets resolved in the peer-reviewed press. --Kim D. Petersen 09:39, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, the American Legacy Foundation (currently Truth Initiative), which is the largest anti-smoking organisation in the USA, has publicized a systematic review ("The findings were compiled from an in-progress comprehensive systematic review of all published scientific literature on e-cigarettes conducted via a PubMed search through February 19, 2015") which criticizes a pre-published version of Glantz's meta-analysis. Can their findings be reflected in WP?GreyZig 14:37, 16 February 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zvi Zig (talk • contribs)

Diacetyl - toxicology section added to main article. Consensus on moving it to Safety

CFCF has added a section to the page dealing with Diacetyl. This is a toxicology section and IMHO belongs on safety instead of adding it here to a summery section. Opinions? AlbinoFerret 01:23, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I strongly disagree, this information is florating in the popular press and while this does not give indication to the strength of the information it says a whole deal about its relevance to the main article.

• Wired
• Motherboard
• Washington Post
• National Law Review

The source of the commotion is a new research paper (yes primary, so I chose not to include it) from Harvard claiming: Diacetyl was found in "39 of the 51 flavors tested" [2]

This is not only important as health information for anyone considering buying such e-liquids, but due to recent events also important as a source of proper information in a sea of misinformation, where there are claims that all flavorings are poisonous or even than all ecigs may cause bronchiolitis obliterans. CFCF 💌 📧 06:56, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Clearly belongs in the Safety of electronic cigarettes article. And if the material is sufficiently important/pertinent to be summarized from that article, then it should be in that summary. With regards to CFCF's commentary above: You seem to think that Wikipedia should be used to debunk or support what is in the current news-cycle. In other words use Wikipedia as journalism, which is a no go. And finally: Newsmedia coverage does not lead WP:WEIGHT to a MED topic... we are all aware of how wrong media gets medical and science issues - right? --Kim D. Petersen 07:25, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The above sources have no impact on the weight of the content currently in the article, but they impact its relevance and give an idea about how many readers will come here to inquire about it. It is exactly as you say "we are all aware of how wrong media gets medical and science issues" — but, this is a reason why we should present the facts, instead of leaving to popular speculation. Hiding important and relevant content in sub-articles isn't helpful, and we shouldn't pretend that these get any significant readership (the reason I don't spend any of my limited time working on them), but by all means copy the content there as well. CFCF 💌 📧 21:31, 8 February 2016 (UTC) 

• Doesn't belong anywhere in WP yet, until it is discussed in a secondary source. Jytdog (talk) 07:55, 8 February 2016 (UTC) (striking, I apologize for not having read the actual introduced content Jytdog (talk) 01:10, 9 February 2016 (UTC))

Jytdog It is discussed in secondary sources, the added text is only from secondary sources. This was only justification for it being included in the main article, not in the safety article. CFCF 💌 📧 09:26, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

One of the sources in the article isnt on e-cigs. Its about Diacetyl and popcorn flavourings. AlbinoFerret 11:54, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, and that source is used to add context that this was how the discovery was made that aerosolized exposure may lead to lung disease. It is absolutely relevant to the section and does not add anything that could amount to synthesis of sources. CFCF 💌 📧 21:31, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Thats mixing apples and oranges. There is no source that links the type of exposure in a industrial popcorn factory to the exposure in e-cigs. AlbinoFerret 00:15, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the first source in the section, the one you cited ([3]) does. — page 4
Actually the very sentence above the one you cited

Some ENDS solutions contain harmful flavoring molecules, diacetyl and acetyl propionyl, used to add a buttery taste to the vapor and are known to cause bronchiolitis obliterans. These chemicals have been demonstrated to be present in higher concentrations in ENDS than is recommended by the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health [33].

CFCF 💌 📧 00:35, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Content in question

Flavorings

Diacetyl is commonly found at lower levels in e-cigarettes than in traditional cigarettes. Certain flavorings may contain harmful substances such as diacetyl and acetyl-propionyl which give a buttery taste. Diacetyl has previously been connected to bronchiolitis obliterans when breathed in as an aerosol by popcorn manufacturers, known then as Popcorn lung. A 2015 review urged for specific regulation of diacetyl and acetyl-propionyl in e-liquid, which are safe when ingested but harmful when inhaled. Both diacetyl and acetyl-propionyl have been found in concentrations beyond those recommended by the US National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health.

A 2015 class-action lawsuit is pending in Orange County over claims connecting the specific e-liquid flavorings containing diacetyl and acetyl propionyl and incidences of the lung disease bronchiolitis obliterans.

References

To clarify this is the added text, it is not related to the above popular press and primary sources. As you can see — this is all sourced to secondary sources, all of which are MEDRS-compliant or unrelated to medicine. CFCF 💌 📧 21:36, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The first paragraph of that content is fine WP content. My apologies again for my earlier sloppy reaction. With regard to the second paragraph, I have a strong preference to not discuss ongoing litigation until it is resolved, unless the litigation itself causes big changes (in this case, if companies stopped using it because of the litigation, per reliable sources. I'll address the WEIGHT question - whether this belongs here - in a moment, when I read some more. Jytdog (talk) 01:13, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

In a main article like this, which has spawned sub-articles, I am a firm believer that content should be added first to the relevant spun-off articles, evaluated as to whether it is important enough to make the lead of that article, and if it does, modify the lead of that article, and only then added to the main article. That is all per WP:SUMMARY and WP:SPLIT. I have removed the content from this article and have added it to the body of the safety article and blended it in this series of diffs. I did remove the litigation information. I think we will need more information on how prevalent diacetyl is in e-cig liquids in order to decide if it rises to the importance of making the lead of that article; there is not enough information in hand to decide that right now. Jytdog (talk) 01:40, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree with all that. Johnbod (talk) 09:49, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

effect on immune system genes

I just came across this--leaving it here for other people to possibly decide to use.

• http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/02/e-cigs-shut-down-hundreds-of-immune-system-genes-regular-cigs-dont/

173.228.123.101 (talk) 19:20, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Yu et. al.

I have seen several stories in the national press in the UK covering Yu et. al.: [4]. Since this is from November 2015 I presume it has already been discussed, which archive should I look in please? Guy (Help!) 11:18, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

For clarity the article is doi:10.1016/j.oraloncology.2015.10.018 (the link did not work for me)—but no, it has not been discussed. We stick almost entirely to secondary sources for these articles, and while that source is without question very interesting, it is so in the same way that Ars Technica – E-cigs shut down hundreds of immune system genes—regular cigs don’t is interesting—the evidence is only preliminary and it is better if Wikipedians are removed from trying to interpret it. CFCF 💌 📧 12:22, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. We stick to secondary sources entirely. --Kim D. Petersen 15:02, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Also agree, we do not lack for secondary sources in this article. Its best that we stick to secondary sources. AlbinoFerret 20:06, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Why all the refs in the lead?

The lead section of a Wikipedia article is supposed to summarize the article's contents, so inline citations (which make it look like the material was added to the lead first) should be kept to a minimum. And yet somehow this article's lead has over forty!? Also, the lead is enormous... just saying...

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:58, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Most leads on medical articles are referenced, and should be. Most leads are also much too short, and this is a long article on a complex topic. The lead now has 5 paras, one more than WP:LEAD suggests, but personally I think that's ok. Johnbod (talk) 12:45, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Can you cite tge PAG that says "Most leads on medical articles should be referenced"? This seems counter-intuitive to me. The body should be thoroughly referenced, but the lead should comprise a summary of the body. It should be based on the content of the article itself, not on external reliable sources. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:58, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Can you provide a PAG that says that the lede should not be referenced? AlbinoFerret 14:08, 22 February 2016 (UTC)