Talk:Electronic cigarette/Archive 27
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Mass changes to smoking cessation
Sourced content to reviews was replaced with a randomized controlled trial.[1] The reviews are not outdated content. Sourced content was deleted again.[2] The part "A 2015 review found e-cigarettes was positively associated with smoking cessation." is original research.[3] This edit appears to be a WP:COPYVIO because the 2014 review stated "Our meta-analyses demonstrated a higher smoking cessation rate of 20% achieved with e-cigarettes, suggesting that factors beyond nicotine replacement alone may contribute to smoking cessation."[4] This edit replaced accurately sourced content with original research and deleted one sentence that is accurately sourced. This edit deleted sourced content. This edit made the text less accurate than the previous wording. QuackGuru (talk) 16:40, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
- QuackGuru: I have asked for help regarding your editing. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&oldid=692779454 If I need to escalate to something more official, I will find out how and do so. You are running ruff-shoot over multiple pages as if you are the owner of the content.
- You really jump the shark, when you say that I am doing a copyright violation, by using a near quote from the conclusion of a public study...where I attribute to the authors and cite them. You are taking meta-studies, which find 2 clinical trials that support the efficacy of cessation of smoking, in randomized trials....and then that is absolutely bastardized into a phrase " Researchers found limited information" They found 2 randomized trials, which are not cheap. Other places you want to put content in from a meta-study which is attributed to the source study, and after I go through the time and effort to look up the source, to find its being absolutely misquoted...you simple delete that, revert it, and say it was duplication.
- QuackGuru, Please Stop this. I kow have to spend the time to undo you edits. And that is not time that you should FORCE me to spend. Mystery Wolff (talk) 07:24, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- QuackGuru: I have asked for help regarding your editing. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&oldid=692779454 If I need to escalate to something more official, I will find out how and do so. You are running ruff-shoot over multiple pages as if you are the owner of the content.
- I have now had to do a manual revert, because of this. Please, if you want to edit and make changes, do it line by line, so people can see what you are doing. I will do the same. Mystery Wolff (talk) 07:43, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Mystery Wolff Why did you combine Construction and E-liquid again ,[5] they are separate pages as you well know. How is the reader to determine what page to go to if the information is mingled? Every other page that is separate has its own section. First I simply made it a sub section, you reverted, then I made it its own section, you reverted. Please explain why. AlbinoFerret 15:03, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- AlbinoFerret Let me apologize for problem. I had to do a manual revert to vandalism by QuackGuru. He did a mass of edits with little explanation, and a manual revert was the only way. My manual revert could have be mechanically executed better and I think I know how to do it better. It was late and I did not capture well a couple of edits you had, and the manual revert was what would have caused them. Because of the style of QuackGuru the page is in such flux with so little explanation, its hard to sort things out. As far as the pages I believe that E-Liquid is its own thing. Contraction of the device can talk to it....but after a quick dialogue it should send people over. As you know E-Liquid page is being shredded up by QuackGuru. Keeping information in line with each page, is something I want to work on as well. It should not be that there is duplication to the point that a single edit needs to be changed in 5 places. Mystery Wolff (talk) 22:44, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Mystery Wolff Why did you combine Construction and E-liquid again ,[5] they are separate pages as you well know. How is the reader to determine what page to go to if the information is mingled? Every other page that is separate has its own section. First I simply made it a sub section, you reverted, then I made it its own section, you reverted. Please explain why. AlbinoFerret 15:03, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- I have now had to do a manual revert, because of this. Please, if you want to edit and make changes, do it line by line, so people can see what you are doing. I will do the same. Mystery Wolff (talk) 07:43, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
The WP:OR was restored along with the WP:MEDRS violation. Sourced text to reviews were also deleted. The WP:COPYVIO was also restored after I rewritten it. QuackGuru (talk) 18:37, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- QuackGuru ::I regard the changes that you are doing as destructive. You are at the point of removing references to the full studies. When you see a link that was not auto-generated to a full study, and delete it in favor of an abstract, that is a problem. When you delete longitudinal studies with zero explanation, it is a problem. When you slap in edits after edits, with little or no explanation it a problem. Other editors can not see what you are doing. I don't want to play the game with you that citing a source is with the conclusions made, is some form of copyright violation. Your claim that the University of East London is not an acceptable source is outrageous. Mystery Wolff (talk) 23:02, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- It is a study not a WP:MEDRS review. QuackGuru (talk) 23:07, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- The nature of observational studies and those of medicine are different. The MEDRS is being used as a catch-all to remove content that you don't want to see. QuackGuru, I have already read you suggesting that 90% of this page was created by you, and you are concerned about other editors changing it. There is an existing ARB concerning you (or whatever is the right term) that you should review. If you wanted to explain what the issue SPECIFICALLY with "A longitudinal study of smokers and e-cigarette use, reported that daily users of e-cigarettes, were 6 times as likely as nonusers/triers to report quitting." Otherwise I am simply too frustrated deal with it more tonight. Your persistent incremental edits won't just undo all new contributions, they may tonight though Mystery Wolff (talk) 03:21, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I tagged the two studies. After I also tagged the OR you restored it again, among other problems.[6] QuackGuru (talk) 04:08, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- The nature of observational studies and those of medicine are different. The MEDRS is being used as a catch-all to remove content that you don't want to see. QuackGuru, I have already read you suggesting that 90% of this page was created by you, and you are concerned about other editors changing it. There is an existing ARB concerning you (or whatever is the right term) that you should review. If you wanted to explain what the issue SPECIFICALLY with "A longitudinal study of smokers and e-cigarette use, reported that daily users of e-cigarettes, were 6 times as likely as nonusers/triers to report quitting." Otherwise I am simply too frustrated deal with it more tonight. Your persistent incremental edits won't just undo all new contributions, they may tonight though Mystery Wolff (talk) 03:21, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I concur the U. of London study seems to be a valid source for this. MEDRS does not prevent the use of all sources that aren't medical literature reviews. A study like that is a WP:PRIMARY source, but a peer-reviewed one from a reputable publisher, so it can be included with attribution and without trying to make it say something it doesn't. We just can't, per the WP:AEIS rule in WP:NOR, present its novel claims as fact in WP's own voice, and WP:NPOV prevents us from presenting novel claims, even with attribution, that don't have wide acceptance without also providing the sourced alternative view(s). WP:FRINGE prevents us giving novel claims that are considered nonsense without making it clear that mainstream science regards them that way. Better understanding of this interplay would go a long way to easing a lot of strife here. What we don't want to see is "This was disproved by a newer 2015 study.[cite]" Primary research that has not been independently validated doesn't really demonstrate anything, it just says "here's our methodology and results; what do our colleagues think of this?" When it's undertaken to check the results of previous work, it means "We know they said that, but we just ran these tests and got this result instead, so this needs further research attention". — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 05:01, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I did write information about the latest and third RCT using a WP:MEDORG compliant report. See "A third RCT in 2014 found that smokers who were not interested in quitting, after eight weeks of e-cigarette use 34% who used e-cigarettes had quit smoking in comparison with 0% of users who did not use e-cigarettes, with considerable reductions from smoking in the e-cigarette group.[96]" The Cochrane review covers the other two RCTs. See "A 2014 Cochrane review found limited evidence of a benefit as a smoking cessation aid from a small number of studies, which included two randomized controlled trials (RCT).[16] " QuackGuru (talk) 05:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- So, why is there a dispute? There are two viable sources (of different sorts). Let's just cite them as saying what they say, and attribute them so it doesn't look like WP is asserting that something is a True Fact(tm), when RS clearly do not agree on all these details of, well, much of anything on this topic. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:24, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- The issues are contained in the first item under this topic. It takes time to read them. Here is one https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&diff=next&oldid=692674401 The source says they found they are as good as NRT. The wording is done in a way that suggest there is not evidence, and then conflates that with saying "better than NRT" If you look at the source they found it better, but did not have enough assert that with confidence. In the version that QuackGuru wants, it takes another sentence to back off and then say they are as good as NRT. His complaint my edit, I remove the double negative, state what they found, and remove the entire sentence which was a backtrack. As another example read above of what QuackGuru wants to put in, hyper selective wording. "A 2014 Cochrane review found limited evidence of a benefit as a smoking cessation aid from a small number of studies, which included two randomized controlled trials" What they found were two serious studies RCT that said there was a benefit to cessation. The word limited refers to the count. When it says limited evidence, its not trivial evidence, its a count of studies. QuackGuru does this as many times as you see in his original post in this section, to see the rest. Its simply QuackGuru's personal POV skewing content. Do you now understand the what the dispute is? Mystery Wolff (talk) 12:46, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- It's obvious what the nature is of the personality dispute between you and QG, and that you don't like each other's wording. None of that gets at why where would be any dispute about the inclusion of both sources, which is what I asked about. What I'm getting is "source A should be excluded because editor X wrote this about it" vs. "source B should be excluded because editor Y wrote that about it". It seems to me that if both editors wrote nothing about either, then the sources could be integrated easily by someone else. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:21, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, you are just wrong, I know that you and QuackGuru talk and interact...but this has nothing to do FOR ME with personality. Its not about word choice and wording. We have real data. We have real science. And we have a level and bar to clear with Wikipedia for content inclusion. Let's improve the article. Mystery Wolff (talk) 14:47, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- It's obvious what the nature is of the personality dispute between you and QG, and that you don't like each other's wording. None of that gets at why where would be any dispute about the inclusion of both sources, which is what I asked about. What I'm getting is "source A should be excluded because editor X wrote this about it" vs. "source B should be excluded because editor Y wrote that about it". It seems to me that if both editors wrote nothing about either, then the sources could be integrated easily by someone else. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:21, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- The issues are contained in the first item under this topic. It takes time to read them. Here is one https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&diff=next&oldid=692674401 The source says they found they are as good as NRT. The wording is done in a way that suggest there is not evidence, and then conflates that with saying "better than NRT" If you look at the source they found it better, but did not have enough assert that with confidence. In the version that QuackGuru wants, it takes another sentence to back off and then say they are as good as NRT. His complaint my edit, I remove the double negative, state what they found, and remove the entire sentence which was a backtrack. As another example read above of what QuackGuru wants to put in, hyper selective wording. "A 2014 Cochrane review found limited evidence of a benefit as a smoking cessation aid from a small number of studies, which included two randomized controlled trials" What they found were two serious studies RCT that said there was a benefit to cessation. The word limited refers to the count. When it says limited evidence, its not trivial evidence, its a count of studies. QuackGuru does this as many times as you see in his original post in this section, to see the rest. Its simply QuackGuru's personal POV skewing content. Do you now understand the what the dispute is? Mystery Wolff (talk) 12:46, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- As usual, the Biener study is covered in the PHE Report, p. 50, and Bullen 2010 on p.73 - I wish people would actually read that. Also, Mystery Wolff, please read WP:MEDRS carefully, and don't omit the date field in refs. Johnbod (talk) 12:54, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Will look at the Biener study I will search for it tomorrow, if the link is super handy posting it here would be lovely. Have looked at WP:MEDRS and understand its guides, will look again. Just to clarify something, do you think Cessation of Smoking via replacement over to Electronic Cigarettes is a medical claim? Or medicine of any type? Both are legal products. Both are nicotine products. If the FDA gets its way they are both Tobacco Products. Addiction is premised upon damage and harm of smoking, and again the nicotine addiction is defined as nicotine addiction. So when research shows that one product in the same category is replacing another....how is that not marketing or consumer data. Because the studies are using statistics does that make them MEDICINE? Not trying to be flippant, but Medicine is the highest and most guarded (as it should) bar on Wikipedia for sources....how does that relate to consumer preferences for two legally sold nicotine products??? I will contribute and cite those properly regardless. Mystery Wolff (talk) 13:24, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Pure data on prevalence of use is not strictly MEDRS, but in fact can conveniently be sourced from MEDRS-compliant sources, and probably should be. Anything to do with effectiveness in cessation, or e-cigs' role in harm reduction, is certainly MEDRS, as is anything drawn from medical research, including observational etc studies . Johnbod (talk) 16:04, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Will look at the Biener study I will search for it tomorrow, if the link is super handy posting it here would be lovely. Have looked at WP:MEDRS and understand its guides, will look again. Just to clarify something, do you think Cessation of Smoking via replacement over to Electronic Cigarettes is a medical claim? Or medicine of any type? Both are legal products. Both are nicotine products. If the FDA gets its way they are both Tobacco Products. Addiction is premised upon damage and harm of smoking, and again the nicotine addiction is defined as nicotine addiction. So when research shows that one product in the same category is replacing another....how is that not marketing or consumer data. Because the studies are using statistics does that make them MEDICINE? Not trying to be flippant, but Medicine is the highest and most guarded (as it should) bar on Wikipedia for sources....how does that relate to consumer preferences for two legally sold nicotine products??? I will contribute and cite those properly regardless. Mystery Wolff (talk) 13:24, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- So, why is there a dispute? There are two viable sources (of different sorts). Let's just cite them as saying what they say, and attribute them so it doesn't look like WP is asserting that something is a True Fact(tm), when RS clearly do not agree on all these details of, well, much of anything on this topic. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:24, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I did write information about the latest and third RCT using a WP:MEDORG compliant report. See "A third RCT in 2014 found that smokers who were not interested in quitting, after eight weeks of e-cigarette use 34% who used e-cigarettes had quit smoking in comparison with 0% of users who did not use e-cigarettes, with considerable reductions from smoking in the e-cigarette group.[96]" The Cochrane review covers the other two RCTs. See "A 2014 Cochrane review found limited evidence of a benefit as a smoking cessation aid from a small number of studies, which included two randomized controlled trials (RCT).[16] " QuackGuru (talk) 05:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
2016 is near
Since E-cigarette is a fast moving field of study, we should be replacing all the references from 2011 and before that can be replaced. There may be some that cant be, but I think its best to update all that we can to keep the article up to date. AlbinoFerret 15:44, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- I agree this is a good goal. Older studies are also focused on older generations of products.Mystery Wolff (talk) 01:14, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
2014 study
Goniewicz, Maciej L.; Hajek, Peter; McRobbie, Hayden (2014). "Nicotine content of electronic cigarettes, its release in vapour and its consistency across batches: regulatory implications" (PDF). Addiction. 109 (3): 500–507. doi:10.1111/add.12410. ISSN 0965-2140. PMID 24345184.
I mentioned the study at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#2014_study. See "METHODS: We studied five UK brands (six products) with high internet popularity." Also see "This study determined the nicotine content of the cartridges..."[7] This study is not a WP:MEDRS review or WP:SECONDARY source. QuackGuru (talk) 23:21, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- While reviews are preferred. The amount of nicotine in a cartage sourced to a primary study by authors of reviews already in the article should be ok until someone finds a review. Were not looking at a real controversial claim. AlbinoFerret 00:59, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Published since 1884. http://www.addictionjournal.org/ With over 6000 entries in PubMed. Peer-reviewed. What could possibly the argument that it's not reliable??? I am waiting on a large survey to be republished concerning usage, that should help with anything needed on nicotine strengths Mystery Wolff (talk) 01:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- It is covered in the PHE report. Johnbod (talk) 01:56, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- The argument isn't that the publication isn't reliable, just that the content of the paper is primary-source research. The purpose of such papers is to say "Hey, we just did this study and here are our results; does the rest of the world think this is valid research, or did we do something wrong?" Primary research is very often found to be flawed. This is among the reasons that WP:AEIS claims must come from secondary sources, and that MEDRS wants to see peer-reviewed secondary sources like literature reviews for AIES claims that are medical (a journalist parroting what a questionable primary study said is technical a secondary source, but it doesn't add anything to the reliability of the claims made in the study). When we use primary-source papers from peer-reviewed science journals, they need to be for non-controversial things (just cite them), or not in WP's voice for controversial things and instead directly attributed in the prose as well as cited, and usually balanced with any conflicting views also found in reliable sources, not simply presented a known fact. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:34, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- * Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.
- * In science, data is primary, and the first publication of any idea or experimental result is always a primary source.
- * A conclusion written concerning the raw data, is a review, analysis of the primary information. It is for purposes of Wikipedia secondary. Publishing through a peer reviewed journal, is a review of the conclusion (if given, as often only data is presented). A conclusion, in science, it is not data, it is analysis and a Narrative review, not primary, and in essence a defacto narrative review. Again I am speaking to Conclusions within peer reviewed journals.
- * A secondary source usually provides analysis, commentary, evaluation, context, and interpretation. It is this act of going beyond simple description, and telling us the meaning behind the simple facts, that makes them valuable to Wikipedia.
- * Reputable secondary sources are usually based on more than one primary source.
- * Peer reviewed journal entries which provide conclusions, most often do present the other primary data that they used when making their evaluations of all the data, to create the conclusion.
- * Every source is the primary source for something.....More importantly, many high-quality sources contain both primary and secondary material.
- * "Secondary" is not, and should not be, a bit of jargon used by Wikipedians to mean "good" or "reliable" or "usable". Secondary does not mean that the source is independent, authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, expert-approved, subject to editorial control, or published by a reputable publisher. Secondary sources can be unreliable, biased, self-serving and self-published.
- * In the case of peer reviewed article which presents a conclusion WE KNOW it is fact-checked, expert-approved, subject to editorial control and published by a reputable publisher. They are not necessarily authoritative or high quality due to demands of publish or perish.
- * "Primary" is not, and should not be, a bit of jargon used by Wikipedians to mean "bad" or "unreliable" or "unusable". While some primary sources are not fully independent, they can be authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, expert-approved, subject to editorial control and published by a reputable publisher.
- SMcCandlish Of the above most of which is primarily resourced from Wikipedia, and a few that are my condensings...of them...exactly which do you disagree with? I do believe I understand the goals of the guidelines, and I do believe the guidelines are being gamed by QuackGuru, which you have guided QuackGuru on those problematic nature of those undertakings. Correct? The Video which is sourced and cited and view-able on this very page, has the Director of the CDC stating that 25% of all Electronic Cigarette users no longer smoke. If I memorialize that assertion by the CDC into the text of the same subsection, will you object to it being cited, as reflective of the current understanding of cessation and the relationship to Electronic Cigarettes? I hope this clarifies for you. If you do decide to respond to each of the bullet list, I can assure you that I will be appreciative. To be extra clear, your remarks are interpreted as support of the multiple deletions by QuackGuru of content that I resourced and placed in this page, and interpreted to be vouching for QuackGuru actions. I am happy to read a clarification to that interpretation. Thank you........ Mystery Wolff (talk) 10:33, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- This is not the page for a line-by-line analysis of how to interpret policy on primary sources; try WT:NOR for that (and several of your bullet points are not correct, especially "In the case of [a] peer reviewed article which presents a conclusion[,] WE KNOW it is fact-checked, expert-approved ...". That's a misapprehension of what peer review is; it's not confirmation of the veracity of the findings.) It's fine to use primary sources in a balanced way and usually with direct attribution; it is not permissible to use them for controversial information (see WP:PRIMARY), or for analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claims (see WP:AEIS), in Wikipedia's voice. This is not a difficult boundary to work within: just don't present conclusions from primary research as known fact, but rather as results reported by specifically attributed researchers, studies, institutions, etc. How hard can it be to write "According to X, Y is true" instead of the bald assertion "Y is true"? All of our non-crap science articles are written this way where ever they're using primary papers. Finally, I'm not here to "back" anyone; the primary problem with this entire content area is an intense level of factionalization and the irrational results that produces; it needs to stop. It's mysterious to me that I can contradict QG's view on this thread, and you walk away with the interpretation that I'm contradicting you instead. I'm just going to write it off as lack of coffee or something. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:19, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish its not coffee is frustration. You comment here: "This is not a difficult boundary to work within: just don't present conclusions from primary research as known fact, but rather as results reported by specifically attributed researchers, studies, institutions, etc." That's fine. What I was told is by QuackGuru is that it must be secondary, he removes my hard to locate citations. But when I actually point to the conclusion why showing the cite....GUESS WHAT? He says I have committed a copyright violation. Combined that with what you instructed, and rinse and repeat, all my edits are REMOVED by QuackGuru....and I have to come here and try to explain. Yes it needs to stop. I am reading QuackGuru explain how he is responsible for 90% of the content and he does not want to have other editors change it. Hour later I am reading him on your talk page telling you that I am sockpuppet. Its not coffee or none coffee, its frustration, with controlling cliche of editors. (which btw, I have only seen you on the talk page not the article fwiw) Mystery Wolff (talk) 13:08, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I understand feeling frustration about this, but yours was misdirected at me. My own is not directed entirely in QG's direction, as I made pretty clear in my "this topic is a battleground" comments at the RfArb. It needs to be understood that someone trying to find a path through the mine-field, and sometimes agreeing with party A and sometimes with party B based on the merits of the points they raise, should not be interpreted by party B as being in a conspiracy with party A, and second-guessed over trivial matters in thread after thread. I'm actively supporting the idea that RS which don't happen to be the #1-most-favored kind at MEDRS (which is a guideline, not a policy, and some points of which have been disputed) can still be used appropriately in this (or any) article. The fact that QG opposed the inclusion of some of them, and the fact that I don't auto-oppose everything QG says or does, does not magically equate to me opposing the inclusion of those sources, especially when I'm clearly stating that I just object to their misuse. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:17, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish its not coffee is frustration. You comment here: "This is not a difficult boundary to work within: just don't present conclusions from primary research as known fact, but rather as results reported by specifically attributed researchers, studies, institutions, etc." That's fine. What I was told is by QuackGuru is that it must be secondary, he removes my hard to locate citations. But when I actually point to the conclusion why showing the cite....GUESS WHAT? He says I have committed a copyright violation. Combined that with what you instructed, and rinse and repeat, all my edits are REMOVED by QuackGuru....and I have to come here and try to explain. Yes it needs to stop. I am reading QuackGuru explain how he is responsible for 90% of the content and he does not want to have other editors change it. Hour later I am reading him on your talk page telling you that I am sockpuppet. Its not coffee or none coffee, its frustration, with controlling cliche of editors. (which btw, I have only seen you on the talk page not the article fwiw) Mystery Wolff (talk) 13:08, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- This is not the page for a line-by-line analysis of how to interpret policy on primary sources; try WT:NOR for that (and several of your bullet points are not correct, especially "In the case of [a] peer reviewed article which presents a conclusion[,] WE KNOW it is fact-checked, expert-approved ...". That's a misapprehension of what peer review is; it's not confirmation of the veracity of the findings.) It's fine to use primary sources in a balanced way and usually with direct attribution; it is not permissible to use them for controversial information (see WP:PRIMARY), or for analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claims (see WP:AEIS), in Wikipedia's voice. This is not a difficult boundary to work within: just don't present conclusions from primary research as known fact, but rather as results reported by specifically attributed researchers, studies, institutions, etc. How hard can it be to write "According to X, Y is true" instead of the bald assertion "Y is true"? All of our non-crap science articles are written this way where ever they're using primary papers. Finally, I'm not here to "back" anyone; the primary problem with this entire content area is an intense level of factionalization and the irrational results that produces; it needs to stop. It's mysterious to me that I can contradict QG's view on this thread, and you walk away with the interpretation that I'm contradicting you instead. I'm just going to write it off as lack of coffee or something. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:19, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- The argument isn't that the publication isn't reliable, just that the content of the paper is primary-source research. The purpose of such papers is to say "Hey, we just did this study and here are our results; does the rest of the world think this is valid research, or did we do something wrong?" Primary research is very often found to be flawed. This is among the reasons that WP:AEIS claims must come from secondary sources, and that MEDRS wants to see peer-reviewed secondary sources like literature reviews for AIES claims that are medical (a journalist parroting what a questionable primary study said is technical a secondary source, but it doesn't add anything to the reliability of the claims made in the study). When we use primary-source papers from peer-reviewed science journals, they need to be for non-controversial things (just cite them), or not in WP's voice for controversial things and instead directly attributed in the prose as well as cited, and usually balanced with any conflicting views also found in reliable sources, not simply presented a known fact. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:34, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Just for information: The "game-the-system-problem" is solved (for at least six month).--Merlin 1971 (talk) 17:45, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Proper use of additional sources should help reduce strife and increase encyclopedic value
I'll try to distill some thoughts scattered through several threads above. The concentrated kernel is this: We do need to include more sources, including primary papers, but in ways that comport with WP:AEIS and WP:PRIMARY (not to mention WP:COMMONSENSE. The WP:MEDRS guideline is easy to misinterpret in multiple ways. A compounding problem is that what WP means by "primary source" and how one can be used is not clearly understood by everyone (even some MEDRS regulars), probably due to the facts that different fields use "primary source", "secondary source", etc., in quite different ways as terms of art within their own research fields, and assign quite different weight to them (typically, secondary literature reviews are treated like catch-up homework, an all an active researcher cares much about is what's hot in the primary papers flow, since this indicates where there are new research opportunities). This is natural; as everyday people most of us are more interested in what's on the news tonight than a re-examination of what was in the news last year and whether it was reported correctly, and what consensus has emerged about what was reported.
A primary research paper, no matter how prestigious the journal it's published in, or a position statement / press release, no matter how influential the organization that issued it, is still a form of primary source. That does not mean "a poor source". It's entirely authoritative for what the views are of its authors (individual researchers/teams, or an agency/ministry/association speaking as an entity), but it doesn't "prove" or "disprove" anything about the underlying science. It may later turn out to be 100% correct in the conclusions it draws, but this is frankly pretty rare. This is also true of position statements issued by medical regulatory authorities and medical associations; they are socio-political decisions based on research but are not themselves science nor a scientific consensus; they're a an organizational reflection of that consensus or some segment claiming to represent it. It's very clear in this topic, much more so that average, that entire national-level health departments or medical certification organizations can directly contradict each other's "medical consensus" views, which are partially formed for political considerations that have nothing to do with the scientific data.
No new piece of research, however exciting, or position statement, however strident, is a better source for WP purposes that a literature review [in the same field], even if it pre-dates the new paper, though it's often reasonable to attribute and include a paper's novel claims or press release's firm positioning, in a balanced way. The new papers are vetted by peer review only enough to see publication; their results are not "proven" by publication, only offered to the scientific public for it to collectively start trying to confirm (to put it more succinctly than I did before). That confirmation is generally only going to appear (if it does at all) later, in a literature review or other high-end secondary source. A position statement isn't vetted by anyone at all when it comes from a body like the AMA. It may be vetted in ways that undermine its independence and reliability when it comes from a national institute/ministry subject to external political pressure from national leadership. The fact that WP:MEDRS doesn't seem to recognize this problem with position statements is a clear indication why it must be treated as a guideline subject to some common sense interpretation, even if the overall approach of it and the rationale behind it have a great deal of consensus buy in. The existence of a guideline does not constitute immutable consensus that every word in it is perfect.
There seems also to be some sporadic confusion that even after a literature review has indicated acceptance of a claim by scientific consensus, the original paper shouldn't also be cited along with the lit. rev. But that's nonsense; the original-paper citation provides access to the underlying research not just a précis of it, and actual medical/science professionals in our readership expect it to be included. The secondary-source citation to the lit. rev. helps all readers verify that WP isn't full of crap as to what the real-world views are and what level of acceptance they have. The primary-source citation helps expert (or even university student) readers be sure that the claims WP is repeating aren't full of crap as to the science. These are different forms of verifiability and they're both important. "Real world consensus" doesn't always mean as much as we'd like [8].
Conclusion: Much strife could be avoided if people stop injecting bogus "you can't include that because it's just a paper not a lit. rev." arguments, both when a paper is cited with attribution and balanced against other views, and later when a paper is an additional cite for something sourced to a lit. rev. Things will also improve if people stop trying to use primary paper and position statements as if they're secondary sources; they may be high-value in some cases but they must be attributed. Much other strife could be avoided if people stop playing "this is newer so delete this better but older source" and "this new, unproven paper is from a better journal, so delete the slightly older literature review from a smaller journal" and "this obviously politically biased FDA statement trumps real science" games. The end. :-) — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- Most of this flies against normal Wikiproject Medicine practice, and won't be accepted by that project, I think you'll find. I agree myself that it's good to give the primary source at the same time as the review, but this isn't normally done. There isn't much need to use primary studies here, as reviews (of very variable quality) are being banged out at an excessive rate, perhaps one every 2 months for the last few years. We should perhaps make more use of the best ongoing prevalence studies though. "Position statements", which are highly relevant to this subject, are fine when it is made clear that this is what they are, which I think is generally done in these articles. In this very new area, with research growing from next to nothing a few years ago, the exact date of a review piece is highly significant, and we should prefer new over old. Johnbod (talk) 02:59, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- I agree, we will have nothing but problems bringing in primary sources, and with the rate of reviews appearing they are really not needed. Thats not to say we cant bring one in if there is consensus, but that will be hard to do. Position statements are good, but they are largly the same thing with slightly different wording and add to the duplication. There are a ton of them on Safety all basically saying the same thing or duplicating other things. AlbinoFerret 03:55, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'm glad that we do agree that position statements are can be useful, are not required, and (I trust) should be attributed, if I'm reading you (plural) correctly. Last time I raised that suggestion at WT:MEDRS, multiple heads asplode (just as they did about the fact that reliable secondary sources basically equate to high-end editorial filtration, despite the fact that the models outlined on the page already make this clear, and editors outside medical topics intuitively understand this, regardless of topic, quite quickly). I'm not suggesting that a raft of primary studies be used, just that where something seems pertinent, and perhaps has already aroused off-WP comment, that including it may be useful. This seems to come up frequently (and the recently departed-for-a-while editor seems to have been the primary opponent to ever allowing it for any reason). I strongly agree that new reviews (and cross-sectional studies, etc.) should be preferred over old; what I meant about age was: the bogus argument that last month's lit. rev. can be trumped by this week's primary research paper, a common and lame recentism error or PoV tactic, substituting novelty for reliability.
I'm skeptical that "most" of what I said would raise WP:MED's ire; more that some particular bits of it would raise a lot of ire. To be clear, I approach all this from a WP:CORE policies and WP:RS guideline perspective – i.e. the stable, WP-wide consensus for years and years about how WP is written and operates – and I view a small portion of what goes on at WT:MEDRS and gets written into WP:MEDRS to be unacceptable WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, bucking actual policy. I'm not alone in that. So, yes, I understand that some MEDRS regulars would disagree with some of this. Interestingly, I've learned from direct experience that they won't agree on what they disagree with. The cognitive dissonance happening on those pages is mostly due to people bringing their conflicting professional experiences and expectations into the WP environment and then getting territorial about it, instead of adjusting to WP's own model and terminology. We all basically just have to work around it until those conflicts are sorted out. The more important things in MEDRS are the delineations between biomedical versus non-biomedical sources and why WP has a responsibility to make that distinction; and how to distinguish between the many kinds of medical publications for relative reliability (though it needs to more clearly identify the one model's "primary studies" with the other's "unfiltered information"). The inclusion and mostly-successful conveyance of these key matters are the reasons I support that WP:PROJPAGE having been elevated to a guideline; it's crucial that we get that stuff right, even if some other material on that page is sometimes ignored. MEDRS is a child thrust into an adult role by necessity, and which is still growing up and learning to cope. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:51, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- As editors who choose to go forward in this Article, a lot of this inside of baseball stuff should hopefully not be necessary. Of the (6) categories only one of them is related to [[WP:MEDRS] which is Health Effects and its child topics. When a clarification is made that it is Vegetable Glycerin VG that is being used, vs generic Glycerin, it should not need a medical survey to add that improvement to the article. Items regarding the construction of the devices will not be well cited in Medical Journals regardless.
- It is important to remember for this Article, that Electronic Cigarettes are not a medical device, and under what is soon expected to be completed under the Tobacco Control Act of 2009, Electronic Cigarettes will be treated as Tobacco Products. Tobacco Products can not make health claims per the TCA. The FDA failed to in the courts to regulate E-Cig as drugs. This was Sottera decision, which the FDA failed in its appeal challenge.
- A person who switches out one Nicotine product for another is not ceasing the use of Nicotine. You will find many medical journals confused in the terms Tobacco, Smoke, Cigarettes, Nicotine, and they are entirely conflated into each other. Smoking Cessation to some is quitting Cigarettes, to others its quitting Nicotine.
- The scientific studies are funded in large part by the FDA, and the FDA is still deciding how to regulate E-Cigarettes. Some studies designs are not even allowed currently because the FDA has to generate classification codes for research applications.
- This all does make this article an oddball, but so long as editors are earnest, there really should not be a problem. Mystery Wolff (talk) 08:10, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- As editors who choose to go forward in this Article, a lot of this inside of baseball stuff should hopefully not be necessary. Of the (6) categories only one of them is related to [[WP:MEDRS] which is Health Effects and its child topics. When a clarification is made that it is Vegetable Glycerin VG that is being used, vs generic Glycerin, it should not need a medical survey to add that improvement to the article. Items regarding the construction of the devices will not be well cited in Medical Journals regardless.
- I'm glad that we do agree that position statements are can be useful, are not required, and (I trust) should be attributed, if I'm reading you (plural) correctly. Last time I raised that suggestion at WT:MEDRS, multiple heads asplode (just as they did about the fact that reliable secondary sources basically equate to high-end editorial filtration, despite the fact that the models outlined on the page already make this clear, and editors outside medical topics intuitively understand this, regardless of topic, quite quickly). I'm not suggesting that a raft of primary studies be used, just that where something seems pertinent, and perhaps has already aroused off-WP comment, that including it may be useful. This seems to come up frequently (and the recently departed-for-a-while editor seems to have been the primary opponent to ever allowing it for any reason). I strongly agree that new reviews (and cross-sectional studies, etc.) should be preferred over old; what I meant about age was: the bogus argument that last month's lit. rev. can be trumped by this week's primary research paper, a common and lame recentism error or PoV tactic, substituting novelty for reliability.
- I agree, we will have nothing but problems bringing in primary sources, and with the rate of reviews appearing they are really not needed. Thats not to say we cant bring one in if there is consensus, but that will be hard to do. Position statements are good, but they are largly the same thing with slightly different wording and add to the duplication. There are a ton of them on Safety all basically saying the same thing or duplicating other things. AlbinoFerret 03:55, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I'm most in agreement with Johnbod here. We should rely on reviews for issues of what is relevant and interesting aspects of the topic area - but i am open for expanding discussion about individual issues with primary sources, where reviews have already indicated that these particular primary sources are relevant an on point. Ie. that we "vet" primary sources through secondaries. I'm strongly against using primary sources ourselves. That (imho) would lead to POV issues.
- What i think should be more focused on, is summarizing reviews on particular subtopics and figuring out what is the overall view on that particular topic, and what the most interesting divergent views are. As opposed to the current methodology which seems to have been "here is an interesting tidbit, lets put that in". Another issue we have is that some of our material is sourced to reviews that doesn't have a focus on the particular information that is given, and thus is a poor source for the text... For instance a throwaway line in a review about nicotine strength, could suddenly becomes a major conclusion in our articles, and sometimes even directly in contradiction to reviews that have focused on that particular aspect. --Kim D. Petersen 08:19, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- Most of this flies against normal Wikiproject Medicine practice, and won't be accepted by that project, I think you'll find. I agree myself that it's good to give the primary source at the same time as the review, but this isn't normally done. There isn't much need to use primary studies here, as reviews (of very variable quality) are being banged out at an excessive rate, perhaps one every 2 months for the last few years. We should perhaps make more use of the best ongoing prevalence studies though. "Position statements", which are highly relevant to this subject, are fine when it is made clear that this is what they are, which I think is generally done in these articles. In this very new area, with research growing from next to nothing a few years ago, the exact date of a review piece is highly significant, and we should prefer new over old. Johnbod (talk) 02:59, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Replacement of quitting language in Harm reduction
QG replaced a claim that quitting would reduce harm more.[9] This is not a harm reduction claim. Harm reduction is not quitting. Harm reduction is switching to a device that causes less harm for those that cant or wont quit. AlbinoFerret 21:33, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm. The diff shows an insertion, not a replacement. And it's sourced. I'm skeptical that any harm reduction system/regimen or even individual therapist would deny the claim presented. I.e., it would appear to be a claim within harm reduction in the EC context, just not one unique to harm reduction. The insertion appears to be for reader understanding of the topic of the article, not for reader understanding of the harm reduction therapeutic philosophy's exact statement positioning. I've been through a harm reduction regimen, and it was repeatedly made clear that quitting entirely would produce better health results and was also a more successful strategy on average, because of the tendency to slide back to excessive usage. This would not necessarily apply to all things, e.g. someone who has developed a dependency on pain pills that they actually need for medical reasons, so it's correct that it's not always a central tenet of harm reduction in all contexts. But in this particular case that kind of conflict doesn't arise. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:45, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I moved the text to Electronic_cigarette#Smoking_cessation. Either section is fine with me. The current text is "If e-cigarettes are used to quit smoking, they could reduce harm even more if the tobacco user quit using both.[12]" Don't be surprised if it gets deleted again without explanation. QuackGuru (talk) 04:58, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- You do realize that text is unacceptable, Quack, whatever the sources? With the second "if" it vanishes down a logical rabbit-hole. Johnbod (talk) 13:00, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, that doesn't work. The underlying, point that not smoking any of these things any more is better than switching from cigs to e-cigs, is an obviously valid one and source. It just needs to be in a sentence by itself. It would be "cleaner" that way from a sourcing perspective, and also be more "portable" if it's desired to move it to a different section. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- You do realize that text is unacceptable, Quack, whatever the sources? With the second "if" it vanishes down a logical rabbit-hole. Johnbod (talk) 13:00, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish What you say above about your experience is pure rank Original Research, not even Research, is your personal experience. The question of whether reduction of the number of cigarettes is improvement, is a sciencetific one regarding the body. It is not as you say, something about slipping back to smoking. That is know as something called a "quit attempt" QuackGuru is interjecting a theory that E-Cigarettes cause harm. Where is that evidence? He even says that he won't be surprised if his OR is challenged. And all of this is put into a section which is designed to be talking about cessation of smoking. Its the wrong place. SMcCandlish do you not see the problems? Mystery Wolff (talk) 12:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- You need to actually read WP:NOR policy (cf. what Johnbod saying the same thing to you one thread ago about MEDRS; there's a clear WP:COMPETENCE problem happening here). NOR applies to content in articles, not to what people may consider on talk pages. You also need, I must suggest, to stop picking fights over nit-picks of no significance. My mentioning personal experience as one source of my personal skepticism on this issue is not among the actual rationales I present for why the addition is potentially valid. As I said to you on on my talk page, you need to pay attention to what people actually say instead of what you can imagine is the worst or stupidest thing they could have meant if you warp what they said. I have now interacted with you a grand total of three times, and all three times you have done this. That's not going to be tolerated for very long, by me or anyone else. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:09, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I do not think its clever to be told their is a lack of WP:COMPETENCE, nor the other shots. Your ability to tolerate is your capacity, I don't need that information or warning. I would like to stick to the topic which is right here, this section, if you are able.
- The topic is Original Research being place into the Article. This is what the original poster of this section pointed out as a problem https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=692861634&oldid=692860023 You are professing your personal experiences in the TALK page as explanation on why to move in the OR. It gets moved into Smoking Cessation. That is the not the proper spot. If you want to talk about your personal experiences, its fine, but you are doing it so as to make a case. You need evidence of harm to assert that Electronic Cigarettes should be ceased entirely, your story confuses that with personal speculation. If you ACTUALLY have a sourced article of harm from Electronic Cigarettes to humans, in regular usage, a honest study of this, I want to see it. PLEASE. As you were told, the basis of a complete quitting is necessary for harm reduction regarding cigarettes is because of theories that a small number of leaf cigarettes is the same harm as many. Your story confuses that.
- And the real problem remains QuackGuru is moving in Original Research. Look at the citation for it, its a 3 person patient by patient write up. Its not even cited well or properly. "This clinical case conference discusses 3 cases of patients" Is not that type of UBER primary source not an issue now? And QuackGuru puts that statement out as unequivocal fact. Lets deal with what this section is supposed to be talking about, leave the personal stories for our personal talk pages. If you would. Thanks Mystery Wolff (talk) 14:17, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't care what QG's assertions are; they aren't the basis of my argument for including the sourced fact somewhere because it's useful for our readers' understanding. I already laid out my actual rationale regarding that
"The diff shows an insertion, not a replacement. And it's sourced. I'm skeptical that any harm reduction system/regimen or even individual therapist would deny the claim presented. I.e., it would appear to be a claim within harm reduction in the EC context, just not one unique to harm reduction. The insertion appears to be for reader understanding of the topic of the article, not for reader understanding of the harm reduction therapeutic philosophy's exact statement positioning."
("My story" should not confuse that in any way; it's simply an illustrative example.) Maybe it's not crucial to include the insertion there or at all; I just hadn't seen a viable rationale for excluding it entirely, and remain skeptical about the one for excluding it from that section. It looks like a lingering after-effect of the battlegrounding (i.e., resist this edit because of who made it). If the particular source seems weak, there's surely another. A weak-source argument was not presented until just now, in your later argument with me, not by either your or AF's objections to its inclusion. Even your own remains mostly about QG and your opposition to him. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:59, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't care what QG's assertions are; they aren't the basis of my argument for including the sourced fact somewhere because it's useful for our readers' understanding. I already laid out my actual rationale regarding that
- I do not think its clever to be told their is a lack of WP:COMPETENCE, nor the other shots. Your ability to tolerate is your capacity, I don't need that information or warning. I would like to stick to the topic which is right here, this section, if you are able.
- You need to actually read WP:NOR policy (cf. what Johnbod saying the same thing to you one thread ago about MEDRS; there's a clear WP:COMPETENCE problem happening here). NOR applies to content in articles, not to what people may consider on talk pages. You also need, I must suggest, to stop picking fights over nit-picks of no significance. My mentioning personal experience as one source of my personal skepticism on this issue is not among the actual rationales I present for why the addition is potentially valid. As I said to you on on my talk page, you need to pay attention to what people actually say instead of what you can imagine is the worst or stupidest thing they could have meant if you warp what they said. I have now interacted with you a grand total of three times, and all three times you have done this. That's not going to be tolerated for very long, by me or anyone else. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:09, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I moved the text to Electronic_cigarette#Smoking_cessation. Either section is fine with me. The current text is "If e-cigarettes are used to quit smoking, they could reduce harm even more if the tobacco user quit using both.[12]" Don't be surprised if it gets deleted again without explanation. QuackGuru (talk) 04:58, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the insertion of specifically "If e-cigarettes are used to quit smoking, they could reduce harm even more if the tobacco user quit using both". Who is still supporting it? I believe the entire items should be deleted and not included. Because:
1. Its citation is purely primary, and Worse it's based off the unique experience of 3 individuals memorialized a medical journal. This fails even the most generous tests.
2. It is error to think that "If the particular source seems weak, there's surely another" that's silly science at best. I am not aware of any study showing that E-Cigarettes cause harm to human when used in accordance to manufacturer instructions. (e.g. Plugging in 110V device into a 220V outlet and expecting everything to work out fine, bad plan). With ZERO evidence of harm, it is impossible to say, as speculated, that further harm reduction would come from NON-usage. This is why it is Original Research being done inside of the talk page, and nowhere else.
3. Harm reduction for Tobacco and other items, have their own topics.
4. All Original Research, by definition is WEAK SOURCED.
So given all that---Is there anyone still wanting to make a case for sentence to being included, or can it be removed and we be done with it???
Reply if you want it in....otherwise the assumption should be...it can go.(if not already gone) If anyone is wanting to make a fresh case for it, lets hear it. Mystery Wolff (talk) 10:50, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Can someone please post the supporting quote from the source? Can't seem to find it. Thanks.--TMCk (talk) 14:34, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- It can be found on page 8 "When used as a form of pharmacotherapy for tobacco cessation, ECIGs may help to reduce harm even further if the tobacco user quits successfully." AlbinoFerret 15:07, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- From context is it clear what is to be quit successfully, e-cigs or tobacco? SPACKlick (talk) 15:32, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- From the source imho its tobacco. The source is free to read here [10] AlbinoFerret 15:39, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- (ec)Found that part too but it doesn't confirm the fact, at least not the way I read it. It says "...form of harm reduction for those who use other tobacco products..." and goes on "...ECIGs may help reduce harm even further if the tobacco user quits successfully.", the later referring to completely quitting smoking while the former I read as dual use.--TMCk (talk) 15:40, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- "If the particular source seems weak, there's surely another." is not true here. I am remain unaware any showing that millions of Electronic Cigarette users are being harmed. If there was it would be being blasted all over this Article...and it has not. Everything is speculative at best. You need to show there is a harm, before you can attribute harm reduction. For this edit, we need a solid source making the claim, and we simply do not.
- "If the particular source seems weak, there's surely another." is not true here. I am remain unaware any showing that millions of Electronic Cigarette users are being harmed. If there was it would be being blasted all over this Article...and it has not. Everything is speculative at best. You need to show there is a harm, before you can attribute harm reduction. For this edit, we need a solid source making the claim, and we simply do not.
- (ec)Found that part too but it doesn't confirm the fact, at least not the way I read it. It says "...form of harm reduction for those who use other tobacco products..." and goes on "...ECIGs may help reduce harm even further if the tobacco user quits successfully.", the later referring to completely quitting smoking while the former I read as dual use.--TMCk (talk) 15:40, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- From the source imho its tobacco. The source is free to read here [10] AlbinoFerret 15:39, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- From context is it clear what is to be quit successfully, e-cigs or tobacco? SPACKlick (talk) 15:32, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- It can be found on page 8 "When used as a form of pharmacotherapy for tobacco cessation, ECIGs may help to reduce harm even further if the tobacco user quits successfully." AlbinoFerret 15:07, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
HERE ARE THE LINES USED TO MAKE THE EDIT ECIGs are a potential form of harm reduction for those who use other tobacco products, due to reduced exposure to known carcinogens and other toxicants found in tobacco products. When used as a form of pharmacotherapy for tobacco cessation, ECIGs may help to reduce harm even further if the tobacco user quits successfully.
- Those lines are from a paper. The paper fabricated three theoretical patients, and proscribed a set of means to deal with these phantom patient's needs relating to Electronic cigarettes.
- The first line talks about ECIGs reduce harm for those who smoke (use tobacco products), because ECIGs are less toxic. This is dual usage.
- The 2nd line describes that further harm could be reduced if the Dual User, quits tobacco. ECIGs within the sentence, are described as pharmacotherapy therapy, and not "tobacco".
- So this is saying Harm is reduced by replacing smoking with vaping, in dual usage, and even more if the user stops smoking altogether.
- The quote in question placed into the article, INSERTS the word BOTH, and has absolutely no basis within the article itself.
- If anyone is making a case that line remain INSERTED into the ARTICLE....speak now....because next stop is closing this case out, and removing it in the Article.
- Those lines are from a paper. The paper fabricated three theoretical patients, and proscribed a set of means to deal with these phantom patient's needs relating to Electronic cigarettes.
I'm with Mystery Wolf. My reading of the paper is that it's saying Ecigs can reduce harm y reducing smoking of tobaccoo and reduce it further if the user eliminates tobacco entirely by using ecigs. It doesn't mention ceasing to use ecigs at all as far as I can tell. SPACKlick (talk) 10:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
RfC: reduced volts and aldehydes
| Failed RFC by topic banned editor. AlbinoFerret 19:23, 29 November 2015 (UTC) | ||
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. RfC: Is the first proposal or any other proposal relevant to the Safety section?
Second Proposal by AlbinoFerret - Normal usage of e-cigarettes
Third proposal: - Normal usage of e-cigarettes generates very low levels of formaldehyde.[1] A 2015 review found that later-generation e-cigarettes set at higher power may generate equal or higher levels of formaldehyde compared to smoking.[2] Another 2015 review stated that these levels were the result of overheating under test conditions that bear little resemblance to common usage.[1] A 2015 Public Health England report stated that by applying maximum power and increasing the time the device is used on a puffing machine, e-liquids can thermally degrade and produce high levels of formaldehyde.[3] Users detect the "dry puff" and avoid it, and the report concluded that "There is no indication that EC users are exposed to dangerous levels of aldehydes."[3]
I tweaked the third proposal. QuackGuru (talk) 20:47, 24 November 2015 (UTC) Fourth proposal, a mixture of the last two, using "power" rather than "voltage", and other minor tweaks: - Normal usage of e-cigarettes generates very low levels of formaldehyde.[1] A 2015 review found that later-generation e-cigarettes set at higher power may generate equal or higher levels of formaldehyde compared to smoking.[2] Another 2015 review stated that these levels were the result of overheating under test conditions that bear little resemblance to common usage.[1] A 2015 Public Health England report looking at the same studies stated that by applying maximum power and increasing the time the device is used on a puffing machine, e-liquids can thermally degrade and produce high levels of formaldehyde.[3] Users detect the "dry puff" and avoid it, and the report concluded that "There is no indication that EC users are exposed to dangerous levels of aldehydes."[3] Johnbod (talk) 20:43, 24 November 2015 (UTC) Fith proposal, adds the study: - Normal usage of e-cigarettes generates very low levels of formaldehyde.[1] A 2015 review found that later-generation e-cigarettes set at higher power may generate equal or higher levels of formaldehyde compared to smoking citing "Carbonyl compounds in electronic cigarette vapors-effects of nicotine solvent and battery output voltage" by Kosmider.[2] Another 2015 review looking at the Kosmider study stated that these levels were the result of overheating under test conditions that bear little resemblance to common usage.[1] A 2015 Public Health England report looking at the similar studies stated that by applying maximum power and increasing the time the device is used on a puffing machine, e-liquids can thermally degrade and produce high levels of formaldehyde.[3] Users detect the "dry puff" and avoid it, and the report concluded that "There is no indication that EC users are exposed to dangerous levels of aldehydes."[3] AlbinoFerret 21:30, 24 November 2015 (UTC) Comments on reduced volts and aldehydesBackstory: I thought it would be better to shorten the text. The misplaced text was eventually removed from the harm reduction section and I added some information to the safety section. SM stated my edit to the safety section was a "Rv pre-emptive Quackeditry". See Talk:Electronic_cigarette#Safety_claim_in_Harm_reduction. for the previous discussion. Proposal: I propose including this text in Electronic cigarette#Safety but with better clarification. I think the reader will benefit from knowing reduced volts are generally safer than high volts and according to a report users are not exposed to dangerous levels of aldehydes. QuackGuru (talk) 21:17, 22 November 2015 (UTC):
Good point Merlin, let me try another crack at a proposal, and remove some of the synthesis
That looks better. AlbinoFerret 09:20, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Oppose per WP:NPOV The changed proposal by QuackGuru leaves out details and makes the summery not reflect the sources. AlbinoFerret 19:26, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
This entire topic is Original Research OR being done within Wikipedia. There is no thing called "hot" cigs. Normal volts is reference to unregulated power sources, which are now for enthusiasts in 3rd Generation format. Not to get into the weeds to fast, the work the researchers did was without the benefit of an Electrical Engineer EE. Volts are not critical, but rather the delivered Wattage at coil which has the coils resistance factored. If you want to get even more into it you need to look at airflow, in the creation of overcooked E-Liquids. The entire term used in the lede of "hotter" is "OR" not supported by citations or practices. It needs to be removed. I don't think I need to register opposition to OR, but I will say OPPOSE, and will be reviewing uncited content. Mystery Wolff (talk) 22:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
I made some changes based on johnbod's comments. I think the specifics that replaced the "low" are good. I also think capping the voltage at 5 is the wrong thing to do as other mods likely go higher. Normal is sourced QG. AlbinoFerret 19:32, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
As its lost in this ongoing research I will quote the 4th proposal Proposal by AlbinoFerret - E-cigarettes at normal voltage generate very low levels of formaldehyde.[1] A review found that later generation e-cigarettes at a higher voltage of 5 volts generated equal or higher levels of formaldehyde than smoking.[2] Another review looking at the same studies pointed out that the levels were the result of overheating during testing that bears little resemblance to common usage.[3] A 2015 Public Health England report that looked at the similar studies concluded that by applying maximum voltage and increasing the time the device is used on a puffing machine, e-liquid's can thermally degrade and produce high levels of formaldehyde.[4] This poses no harm to humans because they detect the "dry puff" and avoid it. [4] This is inescapably a proposal of creating Original Research by putting together various sources, and then directing the reader to new conclusions, or to make conclusions. The creation of bad emissions can be created by not using a device properly. (see Toast above). Scientist took a variable setting device and used it improperly in ways that user would not, and then measured the output, and asserted that those finding were valid to users. It is clear to know this because at the designed and instructed usage formaldehyde was not created and with only trace measurements. This proposal takes apples and oranges, and then says rotten fruit is bad as the premise.
This is an issue of OR, putting items together for the explicit reason of creating a perception in the reader, and a song and dance on how to buffer their confusion. I suggest this entire effort simple be abandoned and closed. New devices work differently, volts are not a measure, they are just a component of the equation. The last sentence "This poses no harm to humans because they detect the "dry puff" and avoid it." ---> What is "This" in that sentence, and there is NO WAY you can say it does not pose a harm to humans, because regardless of a dry puff, humans do different things, and some may entirely ignore dry puff or wet puff or whatever else. The proposal should be abandoned, in specific and for the entire concept being asked for inclusion. Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:59, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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New Discussion
In the above failed RFC we had a number of proposals. I am still in favor of the second and 4th with with a minor change "A 2015 Public Health England report looking at the same studies" should be similar studies because they looked at different ones using similar methods that came to the same flawed conclusions. I also question if we should have any mention of the findings because of the flawed nature of the findings, but it may be better to leave it in so we dont have others wanting to add it since it was highly publicised in the news. In any event, what is done here should also be done on Safety imho. AlbinoFerret 23:19, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- I agree we shouldn't lose all that work when we are so close! Er, 6th proposal:
Normal usage of e-cigarettes generates very low levels of formaldehyde.[1] A 2015 review found that later-generation e-cigarettes set at higher power may generate equal or higher levels of formaldehyde compared to smoking.[2][Notes 1] A 2015 review found that these levels were the result of overheating under test conditions that bear little resemblance to common usage.[1] The 2015 Public Health England report looking at the research concluded that by applying maximum power and increasing the time the device is used on a puffing machine, e-liquids can thermally degrade and produce high levels of formaldehyde.[3] Users detect the "dry puff" and avoid it, and the report concluded that "There is no indication that EC users are exposed to dangerous levels of aldehydes."[3]
- ^ a b Polosa, R; Campagna, D; Caponnetto, P (September 2015). "What to advise to respiratory patients intending to use electronic cigarettes". Discovery medicine. 20 (109): 155–61. PMID 26463097.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Orellana-Barrios2015was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ a b McNeill, A, SC (2015). "E – cigarettes: an evidence update A report commissioned by Public Health England" (PDF). www.gov.uk. UK: Public Health England. pp. 77–78.
{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
- How about that - primary study details to note - ideally a cite with both review and primary study in it? Johnbod (talk) 04:08, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- I fixed the note, it was messed up, so I used the note tag, hope you dont mind. If you want more in the note just move the end tag. I think we have a winner! The 6th is a good combination, and the note hides all the extra stuff that can be looked at if someone is interested. AlbinoFerret 05:47, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Since we have no opposition I have added it to the Safety article, and in its lede. I then synced the Safety lede to the summery. AlbinoFerret 21:42, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- I fixed the note, it was messed up, so I used the note tag, hope you dont mind. If you want more in the note just move the end tag. I think we have a winner! The 6th is a good combination, and the note hides all the extra stuff that can be looked at if someone is interested. AlbinoFerret 05:47, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Revert 19.11.15
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@Johnbod: Smoking cessation: the article is stuffed with contradictory sentences one after the other - why pick on this one -- Might as well start somewhere. Are you happy for me to fix this stuff or would you prefer that I tagged all the contradictory sentences for you to fix?—S Marshall T/C 17:27, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
This text is already in the Harm reduction section. QuackGuru (talk) 20:36, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think it is, but "Vaping may have potential in harm reduction compared to smoking.[12]" is. I'd be happy to move the disputed sentence to "Harm Reduction", removing the one I just quoted, but keeping the reference for the new text.
- In general, where significant chunks of text are being addressed, I think new drafts (up to a para at a time say), should be proposed here for discussion. Johnbod (talk) 02:07, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- See Electronic cigarette#Harm_reduction. "As of 2014 promotion of vaping as a harm reduction aid is premature,[20] but in an effort to decrease tobacco related death and disease, e-cigarettes have a potential to be part of the harm reduction strategy.[21]"
- "Vaping may have potential in harm reduction compared to smoking.[12]" This text is redundant. It can be deleted.
- There is a summary of "Harm reduction" in the lede. QuackGuru (talk) 02:48, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Johnbod, the reason I fought that colossal Arbcom case was so that I would be allowed to change the article. No, I'm not going to submit my edits to a committee process before I make them. If you don't like what I write, change it. If you've given any specific and intelligible reasons for that revert, I haven't seen them yet, so perhaps you could point that out to me.—S Marshall T/C 08:47, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- And then you revert me, as you just did. And then we end up here. We might as well do that from the start, and not sentence by sentence - that way of doing things is half the trouble with the article as it stands. Take it from someone with a lot more experience here than you, re-drafting section by section is the way to go in an article like this. Otherwise someone just rewrites your rewrites, and only 1-2 people can be bothered to follow the edit-history, and no-one except the author will bother to defend any version. Johnbod (talk) 09:00, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't recall reverting you, Johnbod. I recall reverting one edit of Blueraspberry's. I think you're confused about this, which is understandable given the volume of editing recently. I see that you don't want me to go through fixing the contradictions so I'll tag them for you to fix.—S Marshall T/C 11:07, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Probably. Please don't bother on my account - I'm unlikely to do anything about them that way. The article is full of contradictions because the sources are. The way to fix that is not just to remove things, but to redraft a balanced narrative that explains the issues and the different statements, and everybody editing the page directly at the same time won't achieve that. Johnbod (talk) 11:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- "As of 2014, their usefulness in tobacco harm reduction is unclear,[20] but they have a potential to be part of the strategy to decrease tobacco related death and disease.[21]" This is the current text in the lede. It would be confusing to place both sources at the end of the sentence. Both sources do not verify the same text. Sources usually disagree on this topic but that does not mean there is anything to fix. I disagree with adding a tag. QuackGuru (talk) 18:59, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
New paragraph, headed Nicotine yield.
Smoking an average traditional cigarette yields between 0.5 and 1.5 mg of nicotine.(source). The amount of nicotine in a cloud of e-cigarette vapour is widely variable and estimates based on the studies available to date need to be treated with caution (same source). EU regulations cap the concentration of nicotine in e-liquid at a maximum of 20mg/mL. This is an arbitrary limit based on limited data (source).
This new paragraph would go somewhere around the "construction" section. It also belongs in our horrible, horrible fork called electronic cigarette aerosol (which amusingly fails to quantify the nicotine concentration in the vapour, although it certainly has a lot to say about the levels of formaldehyde, carcinogens and lead). If, that is, that's one of the forks that survives AfD.—S Marshall T/C 20:04, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- It's nonsense to compare an average traditional cigarette yields between 0.5 and 1.5 mg of nicotine with the concentration of nicotine in e-liquid! The tobacco of an traditional cigarette contains ca. 14mg nicotine (1.1-2.9% of dry weight of tobacco SOURCE: Click). You have to compare either the amount of nicotine in liquid and tobacco or the amount of nicotine absorbed from liquid and tobacco. You can't compare apples with pears - Mixing up things is misleading! BTW: The only thing that counts is the nicotine delivery respectively blood plasma concentration of nicotine.
- Effect of an electronic nicotine delivery device (e cigarette) on desire to smoke and withdrawal, user preferences and nicotine delivery: randomised cross-over trial.
- Nicotine absorption from electronic cigarette use: comparison between first and new-generation devices. (Hint: Look at Fig. 4, Click me)--Merlin 1971 (talk) 11:07, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- I like the idea S Marshall, go for it. AlbinoFerret 00:30, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'm sorry. That's a cogent point well made. I should have been less facetious and more careful; a lesson for me there. (My excuse is that I was stung). Let's try this:
Smoking an average traditional cigarette yields between 0.5 and 1.5 mg of nicotine.(source). The amount of nicotine in a cloud of e-cigarette vapour is widely variable and estimates based on the studies available to date need to be treated with caution (same source). Vapers tend to reach lower blood nicotine concentrations than smokers, particularly when the vapers are inexperienced or using earlier-generation devices (Nature source linked above). EU regulations cap the concentration of nicotine in e-liquid at a maximum of 20mg/mL, but this is an arbitrary limit based on limited data (source).
This would be a whole lot easier if other people could directly edit what I write, wouldn't it?—S Marshall T/C 00:36, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Better! Much better! :) How about a sentence that Vapers tend to reach the lower blood nicotine concentrations much slower than smokers?--Merlin 1971 (talk) 11:07, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- I added the specific information about EU regulations to the construction page. For this page I added general information about the liquid concentrations. See "A cartridge may contain 0 to 20 mg of nicotine." If the other information is added to the construction section it should be added to the construction page body and lede. QuackGuru (talk) 01:47, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- No you don't, sunshine. We will not be going back to that old problem where I'm not allowed to change the article but when I start a talk page conversation QuackGuru pre-emptively makes changes before consensus is reached.—S Marshall T/C 02:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'm sorry. That's a cogent point well made. I should have been less facetious and more careful; a lesson for me there. (My excuse is that I was stung). Let's try this:
- @Merlin 1971: How about:-
Smoking an average traditional cigarette yields between 0.5 and 1.5 mg of nicotine.(source). The amount of nicotine in a cloud of e-cigarette vapour is widely variable and estimates based on the studies available to date need to be treated with caution (same source). In practice vapers tend to reach lower blood nicotine concentrations than smokers, particularly when the vapers are inexperienced or using earlier-generation devices (nature source linked above). Tobacco smoke is absorbed into the bloodstream rapidly, and e-cigarette vapour is relatively slow in this regard (nature source linked above). EU regulations cap the concentration of nicotine in e-liquid at a maximum of 20mg/mL, but this is an arbitrary limit based on limited data (source). The nicotine concentration in an e-liquid is not a reliable guide to the amount of nicotine that reaches the bloodstream (source).
Is the nicotine content of e-liquids regulated in the US?—S Marshall T/C 13:11, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- One minor thing: You'd need to drop the "in a cloud" (which is formed out of exhaled vapor) or replace it with (inhaled) aerosol. As for your question about US regulations, not yet.--TMCk (talk) 13:23, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- This article probably needs a glossary of technical vaping terms.—S Marshall T/C 14:43, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Not e-cig specific. One wouldn't say "smoke cloud" either unless maybe when it is about second hand smoke.--TMCk (talk) 15:21, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- I would. I smoked for 25 years, and I used to talk about a cloud of smoke. Might be one of those American dialect things.—S Marshall T/C 15:54, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- A cloud is commonly a specific (usually) visible physical formation but we're getting off topic a bit (I guess).--TMCk (talk) 16:03, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Next draft:-
Nicotine yield
Smoking a traditional cigarette yields between 0.5 and 1.5 mg of nicotine (source 1), but the nicotine content of the cigarette is only weakly correlated with the levels of nicotine in the smoker's bloodstream (source 2). Likewise the amount of nicotine in a puff of e-cigarette vapor is widely variable and estimates based on the studies currently published need to be treated with caution (source 2). In practice vapers tend to reach lower blood nicotine concentrations than smokers, particularly when the vapers are inexperienced or using earlier-generation devices (nature source linked above: source 3). Tobacco smoke is absorbed into the bloodstream rapidly, and e-cigarette vapor is relatively slow in this regard (source 3). EU regulations cap the concentration of nicotine in e-liquid at a maximum of 2% (20mg/mL), but this is an arbitrary ceiling based on limited data (source 4). In practice the nicotine concentration in an e-liquid is not a reliable guide to the amount of nicotine that reaches the bloodstream (source 5).
Nearly there now?—S Marshall T/C 16:13, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Looks good. Maybe add (now or later) common nicotine content besides (or instead) the EU specific regulation.--TMCk (talk) 16:31, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- The common nicotine content is in the article. See "A cartridge may contain 0 to 20 mg of nicotine.[79]" The specific info about EU regs is in the construction page. It is better to use common info on nicotine content. QuackGuru (talk) 16:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- The common nicotine content of cartridges is not the common one for e-liquids in general. Maybe read "your" article on it?--TMCk (talk) 17:13, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Looks good to me. BTW: I like the way this open and productive discussion is developing!--Merlin 1971 (talk) 17:48, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, if QuackGuru's is the only objection then please could someone pop that paragraph in below "construction" and above "health effects"? In a less fraught article I'd do that myself.—S Marshall T/C 17:57, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- And get reverted in one sweep or tiny little subtle edits? No no, it's all yours :) --TMCk (talk) 18:01, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- TMCk, you wrote "Looks good. Maybe add (now or later) common nicotine content besides (or instead) the EU specific regulation.--TMCk (talk) 16:31, 21 November 2015 (UTC)" Do you think EU specific regulation is too EU-centric? Would it be better to add a general claim instead? QuackGuru (talk) 18:05, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- And get reverted in one sweep or tiny little subtle edits? No no, it's all yours :) --TMCk (talk) 18:01, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- I mean exactly what I said above.--TMCk (talk) 18:11, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Followup
Some of this should be worked into the Electronic cigarette aerosol article. I'm skeptical that the EU limit of 20 mg represents the upper limit of the range of concentrations in commonly available liquids, especially outside of the EU. That's too much coincidence to take seriously. In answer to a question toward the end, it'a not "EU-centric" to include info on the EU regs, though we would probably include other limits that have been enacted in large/influential jurisdictions. This kind of regulatory detail may be better at the aerosol article. Whether or not that will remain a separate article forever is an open question, but it is one for now, and should not be neglected, much less should the articles provide contradictory info or convey contradictory implications. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:41, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Were you canvassed here? AlbinoFerret 23:48, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish's view is very welcome here. He's the kind of editor we need to attract to this topic.—S Marshall T/C 00:45, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I am not trying to drive anyone away, I just found it interesting that he showed up soon after QG posted on his talk page. AlbinoFerret 00:56, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Canvassed? No. I check in from time to time, though mostly was just observing while the RfArb was running. I was too late to get in on this RfC or whatever it was, because I've been super-busy with a server project, then Thanksgiving (the US version). I didn't even know the RfArb had closed, or that various clarifications and AE actions had been launched with regard to them, so it seemed wise to see what was going on after QG corrected me on the RfArb still being ongoing. I don't know why I wasn't notified of its closure. I found this RfC-thing after reviewing your ARCA request and QG's AE request (which I'm declining to get involved in). Had I known about it, I would have supported the editing direction it took and the outcome. I just think it leaves some issues open with regard to reams of detail being added here that more properly belong entirely in the aerosols article, copied to it, or mostly in it and summarized here. They should not WP:POVFORK even if some would like to see a merger (if anything, it just makes merging more difficult later). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for the response. :) AlbinoFerret 03:44, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish's view is very welcome here. He's the kind of editor we need to attract to this topic.—S Marshall T/C 00:45, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I can produce sources that say that concentrations well in excess of 20mg are available. I haven't found a source that says exactly what range is available on general sale, unfortunately. Anyone got anything?—S Marshall T/C 00:49, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- 6, 12, 18, 24 used to be the commonly sold strengths in the UK, as looking at any website would tell you, though with the new regulations coming a move to 12, 16, 20 seems to be happening. Much higher strengths are rarely seen in the UK, and designed for the tiny mix-your-own market, rather than actually using. I'd think 30 or 36 are the most anyone much would enjoy, though there's no accounting for Americans. Johnbod (talk) 04:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'm sure you're right about that. I don't think it would be a good idea to say so in the article without a source, though.—S Marshall T/C 11:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Are pp. 65-67 in the PHE Report what you want? I'm like a broken record suggesting people actually read the thing. Johnbod (talk) 13:07, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- That's ideal. Thank you!—S Marshall T/C 21:16, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Are pp. 65-67 in the PHE Report what you want? I'm like a broken record suggesting people actually read the thing. Johnbod (talk) 13:07, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Btw, I've just noticed that it seems the "EU upper limit" of 20mg only applies to unlicensed e-liquid. Medically-licensed products have no upper limit. I can see the logic, but it's still wierd. Johnbod (talk) 16:34, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- 6, 12, 18, 24 used to be the commonly sold strengths in the UK, as looking at any website would tell you, though with the new regulations coming a move to 12, 16, 20 seems to be happening. Much higher strengths are rarely seen in the UK, and designed for the tiny mix-your-own market, rather than actually using. I'd think 30 or 36 are the most anyone much would enjoy, though there's no accounting for Americans. Johnbod (talk) 04:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Concerns of User:Mystery Wolff
| Collapsed per the editor's agreement. EdJohnston (talk) 23:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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I am going to peel out from EdJohnston and answer and discuss this here, I do believe it is topical to the entire article, hence the new section.
The comment by @EdJohnston: is AE is open to all, but it would be more effective to get proper discussions going here. Anyone who has been following the threads here for a week or more could have something useful to say. User:Mystery Wolff, per your talk page "..I want to make sure that I am on the same level playing field as everyone else". if you want to have a level playing field it might help if you would give us a hint of why you created your account on 19 November with apparently no prior Wikipedia edits but much knowledge of the arb case, just to edit regarding electronic cigarettes. EdJohnston (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC) This question by itself is a accusation of bad faith. Perhaps its is because of the prior action taken in the ARBs. I believe there is no obligation for each and every editor to state why the are participating in editing Wikipedia. Am I wrong? My knowledge of Wikipedia is directly related to how much reading of various WP:xyz jargon is posted. Wikipedia has a fairly extensive user manual, very large, and I read what I need to on a JIT basis. I have edited some other articles, not much, but I do have knowledge of Electronic Cigarettes, if all my edits are just reverted to nothing I may not edit much more, but I have no intention of only working on simply E-Cigs. I am aware there is a group of closely held editors of E-Cigs...and the ARBs of the POV wars are ample to review. I reviewed them.
Nobody on Wikipedia needs to show their badges, make assertions of themselves in order to be valued, SMcCandlish SHOULD know that. Good faith is assumed, we work in an open system, we accept feedback. When my competence attacked even with WikiJargon, it quite an accusation, and SMcCandlish refused to back it up. Do I believe people have POV editing on this topic? I read all the names in the ARB, nothing has changed except for one.
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ALERT, and Discussion for this Article moving forward past the ARB, and proper stewardship
Please carefully read this information:
The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding Electronic cigarette topic area, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.
Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.Background: This Article has been subject to edit wars, wikilawyering, playing of ARB panels, for some time, which has resulted in a Locked page in order to prevent all of these problems. Recently one prolific editor of this Article was topic Ban. During that ARB process assertions of sockpuppetry, NPOV and tagteaming have been pushed out, by editors who are associated with this Article.
The editor who was topic banned for 6m made many many edits, reverts both by UNDO, and incrementally. While I have frustrations with their process, and support the ARB, the assumption of Good Faith, and the process by which all of the current edits were sustained....it should be assumed that the current version is well sourced, and appropriate. That mean changes should be explained. I believe there are a lot of items that need changing. But it can not just be done under the banners of "wording".
I am well aware that there has been a tug of war for a long time on these pages, but that does not mean that Wikipedia guidelines should be abandoned. Perhaps those strategies were needed, but after the ARB decision, it time to go back to Process. Topic banning one editor can still leave the other half of the problem, if you assume partial good faith
Don't remove content without explaining it. It does not necessarily need to be in Talk. But it sure needs to be in the Edit comments.
Don't remove context and explain it by saying its a from of wordsmithing. Wordsmithing does not change the context of the citation.
If content or context is removed without explanation, (including explaining something else in the edit notes, instead of the changes) It is my belief its Vandalism and/or POV pushing.
If you are going to wordsmith existing sentences, try to batch them out for each category. Think them out, instead of a blur of changes which are grammatical problems. "These has been" is wrong "These have been" is correct. Singular "It has been" is correct.
Here are some examples of problem edits in my view. Sorry if they may be yours. I don't want your work wasted, I don't want to be required to revert. I realize bothering to post this could make my edits under more scrutiny....but as the ALERT above shows....everyone should be assuming it on this Article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693011615&oldid=693011196 Removes context of "smoking". The type of nicotine usage is critical to the topic. Without digging in, I would expect this edit to make the sentence no longer match the cite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693465623&oldid=693465457 no explanation on why a cited sentence is removed. Its bait and switch via the Edit description. I think its obvious this is a useful sentence to be included. I would listen to an argument why not....its just not given.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=689215178&oldid=689214324 Cutesy non specific Edit description that forces all other editors to need to look. This edit was not better, not needed, it can be argued successfully that it is....but the editor did not bother. If a change from electronic cigarette to e-Cigarette was desired, it can be done in TALK and then moved out in mass to the entire Article.
Last there is this one, that almost has a description, until you open it up and realize what was removed. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693464684&oldid=693422936 Removes DATES including effective date, Removes the REGULATOR NAMES, removed product definitions, Removes EU information, Remove USA specific information.
I do believe QuackGuru was a problematic editor, but I don't preclude he was being messed with. I began on this Article, just recently, and I see no reason to research or care about all the past shenanigans. So with all that said, feel free to ignore me, but don't ignore the Alert and the 5 Pillars. Mystery Wolff (talk) 08:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- I intend to go through the article fixing Quackguru's linguistic infelicities, and I fully intend to continue. By the time I'm done this article will be considerably shorter. I'd encourage you to go through my changes and revert any you dislike, as you have already been doing; I'll simply shrug, move on and fix the next problem. With QG gone, most of the work on this article is uncontroversial stuff that I don't need to discuss.
When you say,
it should be assumed that the current version is well sourced, and appropriate
, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. This article is well-sourced, but a lot of its content is inappropriate. The mere fact that a sentence has a citation does not mean it belongs in Wikipedia and it definitely doesn't mean it belongs in this particular article. But I don't intend to argue with you about it for the time being: I'll try to take out the trash, and if you put it back then I'll simply take out the next lot.—S Marshall T/C 18:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement with S Marshall here. And for that particular reason, i've decided to not comment on individual edits for a while. There are so much fluff and repetitions to fix, that priority should be in fixing prose before focusing on WP:WEIGHT and verification. If anything is blatantly wrong - then it should of course be fixed immediately, but these changes are not likely to make such. --Kim D. Petersen 02:30, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- So far S Marsall is doing a good job by what I have seen. This article has needed a cleanup for quite some time. If something really needs to stay, replace it. As S Marshall has pointed out there is much more to do and moving past those replacements to look at them later is a good plan. For those wanting to replace, make sure the source actually says what you are replacing. Misrepresented sources have crept into the article before, and double checking cant hurt.. AlbinoFerret 04:21, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Of the 4 edits above, I only have problems with the 4th. S Marshall's edit summaries are generally good on why he is doing something, though more on what he is doing would often be good. I'm also not following all the blizzard of edits closely (to which MW's reverts contribute). At some point we will need to move to discussing in more detail here, including drafts. Johnbod (talk) 11:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Johnbod: I am talking to the blistering rate of changes and them being mislabeled. You don't have the time to watch all these edits go in, and I do not either. But in just a few days, important information is being removed, just deleted. Important information. The term "STILL out of control" comes to mind Mystery Wolff (talk) 12:14, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- But you have not been able to produce very pursuasive examples of this. Johnbod (talk) 12:20, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693703109&oldid=693703019 This is an important study no reason to delete it
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693465623&oldid=693465457 This is an important point to make. The objective stated above is simply to cut down words. How is that of value, are we know Twitter?
- You call it "the blizzard of edits" yourselfMystery Wolff (talk) 12:34, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- You already cited the 2nd one. The first needs better phrasing, not removal. It is indeed a key study. Johnbod (talk) 12:38, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- You already cited the 2nd one. The first needs better phrasing, not removal. It is indeed a key study. Johnbod (talk) 12:38, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693703109&oldid=693703019 This is an important study no reason to delete it
- But you have not been able to produce very pursuasive examples of this. Johnbod (talk) 12:20, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Johnbod: I am talking to the blistering rate of changes and them being mislabeled. You don't have the time to watch all these edits go in, and I do not either. But in just a few days, important information is being removed, just deleted. Important information. The term "STILL out of control" comes to mind Mystery Wolff (talk) 12:14, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Of the 4 edits above, I only have problems with the 4th. S Marshall's edit summaries are generally good on why he is doing something, though more on what he is doing would often be good. I'm also not following all the blizzard of edits closely (to which MW's reverts contribute). At some point we will need to move to discussing in more detail here, including drafts. Johnbod (talk) 11:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- So far S Marsall is doing a good job by what I have seen. This article has needed a cleanup for quite some time. If something really needs to stay, replace it. As S Marshall has pointed out there is much more to do and moving past those replacements to look at them later is a good plan. For those wanting to replace, make sure the source actually says what you are replacing. Misrepresented sources have crept into the article before, and double checking cant hurt.. AlbinoFerret 04:21, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement with S Marshall here. And for that particular reason, i've decided to not comment on individual edits for a while. There are so much fluff and repetitions to fix, that priority should be in fixing prose before focusing on WP:WEIGHT and verification. If anything is blatantly wrong - then it should of course be fixed immediately, but these changes are not likely to make such. --Kim D. Petersen 02:30, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
@Spartaz:,@EdJohnston:,@L235:,@Rhoark:,@Gamaliel:,@Lankiveil:,@DeltaQuad:,@NativeForeigner:@Seraphimblade:,@Doug Weller:@Euryalus:,@LFaraone:@Thryduulf:,@DGG:
This is a request for guidance or action regarding a series of cases that have been brought to your attention, which has resulted in multiple actions on this Article (and broadly defined). Admins, Clerks, and ARB boards have spoken to this
Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#S_Marshall
Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles
Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles/Evidence
To paraprash it all. (loosely) A set of interested sockpuppets and tag-teaming editors were found out of the UK (IP's sniffed and confirmed) and some UK editors banned. ARB warring between S Marsall and QuackGuru with various forms of support for S Marsall, and none for QuackGuru.....QuackGuru topic banned for 6 months. Lots of drama.
Todays Situation is that the floodgates of edits are open. While the ARBs handled one side of the problem, it has left the other, who is doing gross amounts of edits and says he has a vision for the article, and no matter what edits are reverted he will keep pounding them in. Already S Marsall, had gone about deleting important content, having it reverted, coming over here and making his statements you see above, and then doing the edits again.
You can read the above. So What did the ARBs do? It removed half of a power struggle by two editors who were not cooperating, both with opposite POVs and their edits looking that way....and left only one.
The ARBs left an imbalance and tacit approval of the other side of the Edit:WAR. So now a BLIZZARD OF EDITS are coming through from S Marsall. If they have to be reverted, he does not care, he will just come back the next day to do it again....and make the article where he wants it. HOW IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE EDITOR QUACKGURU that you just Banned.
Well to this other editor(me),its not any different. Its the same. Why I care....lots of time with cites and edits to get stuff in, and they they are just vaporized.
If this needs to go to another process, tell me, but at this point to the Admins pinged.....I suggest you need to reopen the previous ARB, look at what S Marsall has said what he is going to do, look at what his edits have been after QuackGuru....and take a vote....Is the ARB complete? Y or N. Was the problem Solved Y or N. Do we need to take more action before closing this Y or N. I think you have all the paperwork on your desks without any of it being clear off yet. I don't want to start a new process.
TLDR Dear ARB, read assertions already counter to the Alert, See ARB re-open, and reconfirm, nip in bud, close.
Thank you. A rare Mystery Wolff (talk) 14:40, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- The difference? You are coming into this article as a new editor at a time when the article was on hold and all parties were on their best behaviour. The difference is, S Marshall is editing per WP:BRD an established way of editing. When he is reverted he leaves it be and goes to other areas of the page. Disruptive editors would have reverted again and edit warred in the change, S Marshall has not done that. The article is in drastic need of copy editing. I am sure he will discuss anything you need to discuss. Discussing every single edit is not required. I will also caution you on WP:OUTING, I suggest you read that page and possibly remove any identifying info quickly. AlbinoFerret 15:24, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- ►AlbinoFerret, how can you assert that this article was on its best behavior by all parties? One editors was just topic banned, which is the only reason an ARB for S Marshall was closed, on top of hooliganism by editors that needed to be blocked after IP discovery was done. While you assert S Marshall is editing per WP:BRD you ignore that is not what is actually being done. AlbinoFerret: unless you are watching over each and every edit by S Marshall, I would suggest you not assert a proclamation of what another editor is doing, especially in a thread where it has already been shown he is "reverted again"...Whatever in the world are you talking about with WP:OUTING, are you are talking about the blogger from the UK, written up in the ARB? Be specific, or skip. Thank you Mystery Wolff (talk) 03:02, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Per BRD Be Bold in editing (looks like thats what S Marshell is doing) Revert (what you did) Discuss, talk about the edit instead of reverting a revert (again S Marshall did exactly that). That he decided that it wasnt worth the extra verbiage and went and edited something else in the article is ok, you have the information you wanted in the article. Looks like S Marshall is editing per BRD. BRD does not say to stop all other editing until new editors who have reverted you in other places are satisfied. This whole section seems rather WP:POINTy. AlbinoFerret 03:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- ►AlbinoFerret, how can you assert that this article was on its best behavior by all parties? One editors was just topic banned, which is the only reason an ARB for S Marshall was closed, on top of hooliganism by editors that needed to be blocked after IP discovery was done. While you assert S Marshall is editing per WP:BRD you ignore that is not what is actually being done. AlbinoFerret: unless you are watching over each and every edit by S Marshall, I would suggest you not assert a proclamation of what another editor is doing, especially in a thread where it has already been shown he is "reverted again"...Whatever in the world are you talking about with WP:OUTING, are you are talking about the blogger from the UK, written up in the ARB? Be specific, or skip. Thank you Mystery Wolff (talk) 03:02, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Dear Arb, this is very premature! Johnbod (talk) 15:26, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Maybe a trout for Mystery Wolf's battleground behavior on talk pages...--TMCk (talk) 15:36, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- If others agree with User:Mystery Wolff that there are too many changes and not enough discussion the logical response might be a month of full protection. That would at least force discussion but still allow changes via {{Edit protected}}. A statement above by S Marshall indicates he plans to go on making changes without waiting for consensus. If time is going to be wasted by reverting the same thing in and out multiple times then holding WP:RFCs might be worthwhile. (RfCs take time, but so do revert wars). An alternative to protection could be a voluntary agreement by several people to do more talking for each edit. EdJohnston (talk) 16:16, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- EdJohnston I dont think protection is needed. There is no edit warring going on. A couple of edits by S Marshall were reverted and he left them that way and went on to copy edit other things, standard BRD. Yes he said he was going to continue editing, not that he was going to focus and push edits he has done that are reverted. The vast majority of his edits are non controversial copy editing. I am sure when the copy editing is done more discussion will happen on the fine points. AlbinoFerret 16:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- (ec) Besides not agreeing with Wolff (and I can't imagine others fully do either), a lock down would bring improvements (like we had since the ARB closing) to a halt and is the last thing we need here. Certainly not by taking a new SPA's (so far) "assessment" for granted.--TMCk (talk) 16:32, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- I really do not see that people agree with Mystery Wolff at this point in time. What is happening is a major textual overhaul of the article, which hopefully will result in a significant improvement in prose. Once that is done, i suspect that there will be discussions on sentences/paragraphs to ensure that everything is weighted in accordance to NPOV and is completely in sync with the underlying literature. --Kim D. Petersen 17:58, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- ►EdJohnston I have not read the all full effects of Full Protection, but my first take, is that would do no harm, and would likely help. Thus I support it. You have had multiple ARBs on this page, and the last ARB concluded, it actions did not help, after all that analysis. CFCF was effected, and so too was some UK IPs that were blocked. Otherwise it did not effect a change. Then QuackGuru opens an ARB about a war with S Marshall. That is ended only because QuackGuru is topic banned. I don't see the reason to do this all over again, looking at the ARB that was a lot of work by a lot of people. I do read the comments above, are thinking everything is now fine an dandy, days after QuackGuru banned. I think the ARB board is evading their duties if they poll the interested parties in the Article and the ARBs, to determine what actions they will take. Its not a popularity contest with 4-5 active editors all of whom were aligned against a banned member who left the scene days ago. (with apologies to those who don't fit into this category) If a set of text only edits need to be put in, why not just do all those edits in one shot. Why over and over and over. I can tell you changes being called out as wording....are not just wording. They are removing context and content. There are other items below I will reply to as well. But I will says this....you already have an editor saying they will ignore consensus or building of, and if reverts happen they will just ignore them. To be bold for WP editing....ITS NOT DONE BY A THOUSAND CUTS OF INCREMENTAL EDITING Mystery Wolff (talk) 04:29, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- If others agree with User:Mystery Wolff that there are too many changes and not enough discussion the logical response might be a month of full protection. That would at least force discussion but still allow changes via {{Edit protected}}. A statement above by S Marshall indicates he plans to go on making changes without waiting for consensus. If time is going to be wasted by reverting the same thing in and out multiple times then holding WP:RFCs might be worthwhile. (RfCs take time, but so do revert wars). An alternative to protection could be a voluntary agreement by several people to do more talking for each edit. EdJohnston (talk) 16:16, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Maybe a trout for Mystery Wolf's battleground behavior on talk pages...--TMCk (talk) 15:36, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- It would be helpful to present some diffs at WP:AE with an explanation of what is inappropriate about those particular edits. Based on your comments here all I know is that you do not like some edits by S Marshall. Gamaliel (talk) 16:33, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- AE is open to all, but it would be more effective to get proper discussions going here. Anyone who has been following the threads here for a week or more could have something useful to say. User:Mystery Wolff, per your talk page "..I want to make sure that I am on the same level playing field as everyone else". if you want to have a level playing field it might help if you would give us a hint of why you created your account on 19 November with apparently no prior Wikipedia edits but much knowledge of the arb case, just to edit regarding electronic cigarettes. EdJohnston (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with these two comments, and I'm not willing to reopen the Arb case arbitrarily. We also have DS (also extended DS for SPAs) in affect for E-cigs, and I'd rather see the community work it out here or on WP:AE before we go to another Arbitration case. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 03:25, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- ►►► Amanda,EdJohnston,Gamaliel et al: I have listed 4 examples (1 duplicated and one regarding QuackGuru not counted), and gave the reasons above. Why these are either not BOLD, or destructive (NPOV, or simply taking out very valid information). 50% of the 4 were agreed to as being poor edits by others within this thread. I believe if you look at these edits you will see exactly what I am showing is at issue, and there are S Marshall has stated his goals. Considering case within the ARB was closed on S Marshall with the sole action as being the banning of QuackGuru, I would suggest that ARB did not finish. Others here are saying there is a blizzard of edits. That is not BOLD editing. The editor has stated they will ignore reverts, and continue. DOES THAT MEAN, that I get unlimited reverts to be on equal footing with S Marshall's novel method of changing this article? When S Marshal says the is "when he is done" the article will be much shorter....just what does that mean? When is he done? Why is to be shorter? Is there a list of all these edits by QuackGuru he will change? As already noted above bye EdJohnston and now again below, S Marshal has his own agenda. I would suggest to you S Marshall has asserted he is editing under a POV, and won't be detered now that his ARB was closed by the topic ban of the person that started it. PLEASE LOOK at this edit, because it is the one that bothers me the most, it is not unique for S Marshall. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693703109&oldid=693703019 I understand that study, they test was on Smokers who were NOT trying to quit. He claims he has sought concessions in the edit description, that not true. Again combine that with what S Marshall is saying how he will edit going forward. Mystery Wolff (talk) 04:59, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with these two comments, and I'm not willing to reopen the Arb case arbitrarily. We also have DS (also extended DS for SPAs) in affect for E-cigs, and I'd rather see the community work it out here or on WP:AE before we go to another Arbitration case. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 03:25, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- AE is open to all, but it would be more effective to get proper discussions going here. Anyone who has been following the threads here for a week or more could have something useful to say. User:Mystery Wolff, per your talk page "..I want to make sure that I am on the same level playing field as everyone else". if you want to have a level playing field it might help if you would give us a hint of why you created your account on 19 November with apparently no prior Wikipedia edits but much knowledge of the arb case, just to edit regarding electronic cigarettes. EdJohnston (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- There's not much I need to respond to in Mystery Wolff's complaint, although I'd observe that pinging everyone in Arbcom on your 140th edit, sixteen days after you've made your account, is quite some going and your decision to put a huge text box called ALERT! on SMcCandlish's talk page might raise some eyebrows. I will respond to certain other editors. I'm grateful to AlbinoFerret for coming to my defence but my edits cannot fairly be characterised as "copyediting". I am excising text, and this includes excising sourced text. The content I am removing is inappropriate, but it does go considerably beyond copyediting. I am also editing rapidly. If there was a talk page consensus that I should slow down then I would certainly pay attention to that, but I see no such consensus here. I am also unconcerned about OUTING. I edit under my real name and I choose to display my full name, photograph, location, and date of birth on my userpage. I have nothing to hide.—S Marshall T/C 18:19, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- It may be more than simple c/e, but I think you are doing a good job so far. If anyone disagrees and reverts you, you dont edit war, but just move forward. AlbinoFerret 03:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
I agree with the points above; if there are behavioural problems left over from the case, that WP:AE is the right place to go to put the discretionary sanctions into practice. Note that long rambling screeds, conspiracy theories, and bad faith usually aren't welcomed at said noticeboard. Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:52, 5 December 2015 (UTC).
- @Lankiveil:Let me, if you--will trying to summarize the situation, as I see it. (as best able in a NPOV)
- 1. Arb opened up June-ish with outcomes against CFCF and UK editors and IPs out of UK. QuackGuru given guidance.
- 1. Arb opened up June-ish with outcomes against CFCF and UK editors and IPs out of UK. QuackGuru given guidance.
- @Lankiveil:Let me, if you--will trying to summarize the situation, as I see it. (as best able in a NPOV)
- 2. 2nd ARB opened up by QuackGuru on S Marshall. As it was forming, Prior ARB makes QuackGuru banned, and then says the S Marshall ARB must close.
- 3. S Marshall is needed to be reverted, before a full edit war happens, its brought to talk. S Marshall states his goals in the text above.
- 4. All of the above is process failure. The ARB did not complete. It became assumed that QuackGuru was the only source of problem, even though the ARB never found that.
- 4. All of the above is process failure. The ARB did not complete. It became assumed that QuackGuru was the only source of problem, even though the ARB never found that.
- 5.NEXT STEPS
- 5.NEXT STEPS
- 6. Opening new ARBs and complaints are not going to help if the process is a circular racetrack, something needs to change.
- 6. Opening new ARBs and complaints are not going to help if the process is a circular racetrack, something needs to change.
- 7. Options:
- 7. Options:
- 8. Reopen the old Arb, and accept concerns from others on S Marshall. This is too user centered to be a full solution but better than current potion.
- 8. Reopen the old Arb, and accept concerns from others on S Marshall. This is too user centered to be a full solution but better than current potion.
- 9. Go to full lock of the topic and broadly related. Unless you enjoy ARBs its going to need to happen because the FDA is about to end 6 years of attempting to regulate, they are going to release the final rule in weeks. (google FDA electronic cigarettes regulations in News or read http://thehill.com/regulation/261897-business-health-groups-jockey-to-shape-e-cig-rule ) THE POINT BEING, you probably want a full lock anyway, because its going to come fast a furious when the final rule drops and all the state groups start going.
- 9. Go to full lock of the topic and broadly related. Unless you enjoy ARBs its going to need to happen because the FDA is about to end 6 years of attempting to regulate, they are going to release the final rule in weeks. (google FDA electronic cigarettes regulations in News or read http://thehill.com/regulation/261897-business-health-groups-jockey-to-shape-e-cig-rule ) THE POINT BEING, you probably want a full lock anyway, because its going to come fast a furious when the final rule drops and all the state groups start going.
- 10. I don't know how to open an ARB and I don't want to, if one is opened I can write a problem statement. (Same if an old one is re-opened)
- 10. I don't know how to open an ARB and I don't want to, if one is opened I can write a problem statement. (Same if an old one is re-opened)
- Well, you've got a grievance about my editing; you've been told you can't express it here; but fair process says you've got to be able to express it somewhere. I have very little appetite for further arbitration about this, but if you really do want to begin an Arbitration Enforcement thread against me then the technical difficulty of opening one should not be allowed to stand in your way. So I'll offer to open an arbitration enforcement thread against myself on your behalf. Before I do: are you absolutely sure? You might want to ask for some advice from experienced, uninvolved editors before you answer. (Try using {{helpme}} on your talk page to attract their attention.)—S Marshall T/C 21:46, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- In all fairness I think Mystery Wolf should be aware of the WP:BOOMERANG. AlbinoFerret 22:14, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Straight into Quack's footsteps.--TMCk (talk) 23:07, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Straight into Quack's footsteps.--TMCk (talk) 23:07, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
►@S Marshall: I need to disabuse you of these notions.
1. I have listed out edits that I have concerns about, which were deleting information, without Edit summaries reflecting that, and then deleting valuable information which the effect of is IMO very detrimental.
2. You response to the above, was that you would continue to do so. You would not be deterred in any manner. That now that your ARB requests resulted in QuackGuru being suspended, you had an agenda to push into the article, and by the time you were done, the article would be much shorter. Anyone can see my concern when that is said on top of a general Alert on this page, which I even posted in this subsection.
3. No one has said to me "you've been told you can't express it here". There have been some non interested ARB members and admins, who have been very careful to not interject. They have asked for information, they have said they read some of the information. But they have not interacted.
4. My goal to alert them that his dialogue was going on was in order for them to TAKE ACTION on the ALERT, which enables their discretionary actions for this Page....WITHOUT A NEW ARB.....I am using the system. I am using the process. I am the guy on the factory floor who is hitting the STOP button because we have a process failure. I see no value to anyone that this create a new ARB, when the existing ones continue to hold discretion. HENCE THE ALERT
5. S Marshall I have been distinctly told THIS IS THE PROPER PLACE TO EXPRESS IT. I was told I MUST SAY IT HERE. I was told you are using the BOLD edit style which relies on BOLD edits and waiting for feedback through reverts. Was told that you are seeking REVERTS as your process control.
6. That then becomes something that the ARB must look at. Because you are doing many many edits. There is no way I can revert all of them to give you feedback, when there are 10+ a day. You are not bringing them up to anyone before hand. AND THE BIG ITEM. You said that even if you get Reverted, you will just go on to the next item.
7. You provide no explanation to why you made the changes that were reverted. You simply want to continue on and win by attrition. Its not trivial because you are blanking out items that other editors feel is important.
8. You can not use the BOLD system, when feedback is not sought. Otherwise you are just using 3RR as a gamed system. I don't think that is debatable. Why make an edit you won't stand up for. It gives the impression of "caught" but unrelenting.
9. Again when others and you say you are using the BOLD edit system---you say directly above: "I have very little appetite for further arbitration about this" that means you want 1/2 the BOLD systems with not of the controls it relies on.
10. S Marshall I asked you to explain your edits, you refused. If you want to help me, start there. I believe the ALERT given in this subsection enables the ARB to take discretionary actions. Right now, I think a full lockdown on the thread makes sense. The incremental cost to administrators will be fantastically reduced vs continuing ARBs, or vs letting tightly aligned and constant ARB participants from riding rough shot over anyone. Had you been just wordsmithing, it would be entirely different, but you are DELETING IMPORTANT STUDIES WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATION WHEN ASKED, PURELY REFUSING. The thing is I won't be around Monday or Thursday, or whenever of whatever week to monitor your "novel atypical BOLD edit" system enabled by successfully getting your flow control (QuackGuru) topic banned.
I have to proceed, because I simply won't put hours and hours of work finding medical citations that meet the criteria of inclusion....have them sit in the page for 2 weeks, to have them ripped out by you calling the deletion "nobody understand this". Sorry I just won't. And I am following ALL procedures as best able. Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:45, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- There are two errors in your 8 points Mystery Wolf.
- 1) The result of the August Arb didn't mention UK IP's and UK IP's it mentioned CFCF, QuackGuru and SPA's [[WP:ARBEC]
- 4) Both ARB's completed, the first with an extension of discretionary sanctions, the second with a boomerang on QuackGuru who didn't learn his lesson on the first ARB.
- S Marshall has been pruning text in the wrong article, copyediting poorly written text and generally making edits that several of us have attempted barring QuackGuru's ownership of the article. If there are any specific edits you disagree with on this topic I'd recommend listing them on the talk page for discussion, it's perfectly possible anyone involved in this article over the last 6 months might be overzealous in their corrections so some mistakes may well creep in. If you spot one, point it out on the talk page but looking through the edits, in general they're improvements, undoing the damage already done. SPACKlick (talk) 03:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- ►1. I'll assume the other points you find no error.
- 2. The ARBs I looked at in the evidence section all this on sockpuppets and IP addresses etc etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles/Evidence#Preliminary_statement_by_CFCF
- 3. Here again, why I know things, its because you ask me to look them up. Yes I am aware of the First Arb and the boomerang. HOWEVER now you have made me obligated because I am actually neutralPOV, to tell QuackGuru his 6M topic ban was outside of the decision of the first ARB. And I was a person who is very upset at QuackGuru. But fair is fair assumption of good faith is a responsibility. The ARB he was 6M topic ban said "Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles#Enforcement_of_restrictions Sucks to be me here, but his violation already had determined a max sentence on it.
- 4. Yes I see the "copy editing" that S Marshall is doing, and its being done with poor Grammar. He begins sentences with THEY and THEIR, when its entirely not clear what the THEY is. He is removing the names and inserting THEY. I guess to fit into a twitter bar. S Marshall also has problems with tense. He edits to "They has been" or "It have been" its bad Grammar, its the basics. If I revert those, I can not revert the ones with big impact. And I don't want to be reverting anything. There is a saying. I would have written you a short letter but I did not have the time. He is not putting in the time to condense, or he is not skilled.
- 5. SPACKlick it just does not make sense to me, all this historical QuackGuru related stuff that needs to be flooded in. As an editor who did not see all of that, and see not documentation of this mass of changes that needs to happen, I am at a big disadvantage. Why not just put down all the stuff that needs to go in, stick it up on TALK, give it 4-7 days, and then after that move them en mass. All I can say is a hugely important study was removed with no explanation by S Marshall....its enough...considering the backdrop. Mystery Wolff (talk) 12:59, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Everything discussed should have a basis in PAG (policy and guidelines). Please find a policy or guideline that supports your arguments in the future. #5 please point out any policy or guideline that requires each edit to be discussed. AlbinoFerret 14:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- AlbinoFerret: You are mistaken. I was speaking to SPACKlick quote of "S Marshall has been pruning text in the wrong article, copyediting poorly written text and generally making edits that several of us have attempted barring QuackGuru's ownership of the article." You may be part of that group of editors with that POV, I am not. If I look at the ARBs, I see clusters which I would consider the editors in "the several of us" team. If there is some sort of master list of items, lets see it. The copy editing is changing the context and content of what the citation gives, to the point where the inserted material is being crafted in the POV of the Wiki-editor. The article is full out free for all mode, with a blizzard of edits under the banner of "now nobody is stopping "us". SPACKlick says it straight out. Now reverted the reverts that explained. The entire premise of the bold style of editing assumes that its a 1:1, not one vs tag-team. I will submit his, it should be entirely clear. Mystery Wolff (talk) 16:23, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Everything discussed should have a basis in PAG (policy and guidelines). Please find a policy or guideline that supports your arguments in the future. #5 please point out any policy or guideline that requires each edit to be discussed. AlbinoFerret 14:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Nicotine Concentrations
The page says concentrations range up to 36 mg/ml But it seems they range up to 54 mg/ml. Apparently this strength is not common, but it is sold. Is 54 mg/ml the upper end of the range? And what's an suitable source for this? (Above source merely by way of example) Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 22:26, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not sure a blog is a good source for that. AlbinoFerret 23:39, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Saying "ranges commonly between 3 to 30 mg/ml" would be fine. ie Inserting "commonly" with a range. Strengths is very variable. And it depends on device usage. Some devices are higher volume, and thus lower nicotine is used. Much like a gear on a bicycle, you need to understand the back gear to know how much to pedal. Nicotine strength is only one factor in total delivery of nicotine to the user....with the others being type of device and frequency of use of the device. Big shovel vs 10 spades.Mystery Wolff (talk) 23:56, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed a blog is a poor source, which I mention only by way of example. Does anyone have a suitable source?
- "Commonly" seems good. I think the article would be improved by giving both common and full ranges. E.g. here's the common range, here's what's on the market.
- Is any product sold at higher concentrations than 54 ml/mg? Not for dilution but for actual use?
- Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 00:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not to my knowledge, and the 54mg sounds like nicotine base for DIY e-liquid. AlbinoFerret 01:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. There's a bit on this higher up here, and a link to (you'll never guess) the PHE Report. Johnbod (talk) 01:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- OK, thanks. Please note I'm not getting into nicotine deliveries and usage variations and such, which I think is already covered on the page. I'm simply updating the range to what is sold.
- It does seem 54 mg/ml is the top end of the range. E.g. White Cloud double extra strength cartridges and disposable e-cigarettes I haven't been able to find any higher. Is that indeed the highest concentration sold? Cloudjpk (talk) 21:49, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- 54 mg/ml is at the very extreme end of e-liquids - and extremely rare. It is really makes sense/only used when talking cig-a-likes, since these deliver less nicotine to the bloodstream than later generation e-cigarettes. 54 mg/ml is, as mentioned above, not uncommon in DIY liquids though, where it is "mixed down"/diluted to the nicotine strength that the DIY'er requires. --Kim D. Petersen 02:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. There's a bit on this higher up here, and a link to (you'll never guess) the PHE Report. Johnbod (talk) 01:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not to my knowledge, and the 54mg sounds like nicotine base for DIY e-liquid. AlbinoFerret 01:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Saying "ranges commonly between 3 to 30 mg/ml" would be fine. ie Inserting "commonly" with a range. Strengths is very variable. And it depends on device usage. Some devices are higher volume, and thus lower nicotine is used. Much like a gear on a bicycle, you need to understand the back gear to know how much to pedal. Nicotine strength is only one factor in total delivery of nicotine to the user....with the others being type of device and frequency of use of the device. Big shovel vs 10 spades.Mystery Wolff (talk) 23:56, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
Completely anecdata but after searching through reputable suppliers I could only find oe that sold at 54 mg/ml and that is sold as a base to mix down. I can't find anywhere selling higher than 36mg/ml intending it to be vaped without dilution. Would be very interested to see the source of the 54mg/ml claim. That said 54 is quite weak to mix down from ,most people offering 72 or 100 as the bases. SPACKlick (talk) 03:41, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- It would be useful to someone looking to make 6mg DIY.AlbinoFerret 04:18, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed it does seem 54 mg/ml is rare, but it is on the market. However I have yet to find anyone selling higher concentrations. Would it be safe to say 54 mg/ml is the top of the range sold today? Cloudjpk (talk) 20:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- With a lack of a worldwide upper limit by law it won't be safe to say, ever. What's the point other than curiosity?--TMCk (talk) 18:54, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Accuracy Cloudjpk (talk) 20:08, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- With a lack of a worldwide upper limit by law it won't be safe to say, ever. What's the point other than curiosity?--TMCk (talk) 18:54, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed it does seem 54 mg/ml is rare, but it is on the market. However I have yet to find anyone selling higher concentrations. Would it be safe to say 54 mg/ml is the top of the range sold today? Cloudjpk (talk) 20:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
I think the question is answered on range. I'm still looking for suitable sourcing. Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 20:13, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- See section above - PHE Report, as always. Johnbod (talk) 20:35, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Can you be more specific? I don't see where this source provides the range. Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- I give the pages above, to S Marshall. Try 65-70, from memory. Johnbod (talk) 13:28, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, not seeing it there, or anywhere in this source. This may not be a suitable source for the range. Is anyone aware of a good source? Cloudjpk (talk) 19:18, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- I give the pages above, to S Marshall. Try 65-70, from memory. Johnbod (talk) 13:28, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Can you be more specific? I don't see where this source provides the range. Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- See section above - PHE Report, as always. Johnbod (talk) 20:35, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Look again. Public Health England, pages 65-67, exactly as Johnbod said.—S Marshall T/C 19:39, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- E-liquid normally comes in 10ml bottles containing up to 360mg of nicotine.--TMCk (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- The simple math shows that 36mg nic. AlbinoFerret 19:47, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly, which is why this isn't a suitable source for the full range. Does anyone have a suitable source for that? Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 16:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- It's the normal range or do you dispute the math???--TMCk (talk) 17:02, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- The math is fine, of course. The range sold is up to 54 mg/ml. Cloudjpk (talk) 17:30, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think we need a RS for any range above 36mg, Cloudjpk do you have one? AlbinoFerret
- That's my question. I'm looking for suitable sources that show the full range. Cloudjpk (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think we need a RS for any range above 36mg, Cloudjpk do you have one? AlbinoFerret
- The math is fine, of course. The range sold is up to 54 mg/ml. Cloudjpk (talk) 17:30, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- It's the normal range or do you dispute the math???--TMCk (talk) 17:02, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly, which is why this isn't a suitable source for the full range. Does anyone have a suitable source for that? Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 16:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- The simple math shows that 36mg nic. AlbinoFerret 19:47, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
They don't typically range that high. 6-36mg/ml is sold for consumption and 54mg/ml-100mg/ml is sold to be diluted. Where have you got this idea of 54mg/ml sold for consumption from?
- example Cloudjpk (talk) 19:16, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- That source is overly commercial and doent have an editorial statement or a clear indicator even an editor. I dont think its reliable. AlbinoFerret 19:22, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hence my question: does anyone have suitable sources for the full range. Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 19:25, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I dont have anything over 36mg. It appears none of the responders so far do. It may be up to you to find one if you want to go over 36mg. AlbinoFerret 19:28, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I want to improve the article with an accurate number for the range on the market. I appreciate help finding suitable sources. Cloudjpk (talk) 19:33, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think you're supposed to check reliable sources to find out what the range is, not decide what the range is then look for a reliable source that agrees with you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.99.220 (talk) 20:02, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I want to improve the article with an accurate number for the range on the market. I appreciate help finding suitable sources. Cloudjpk (talk) 19:33, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I dont have anything over 36mg. It appears none of the responders so far do. It may be up to you to find one if you want to go over 36mg. AlbinoFerret 19:28, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hence my question: does anyone have suitable sources for the full range. Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 19:25, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- That source is overly commercial and doent have an editorial statement or a clear indicator even an editor. I dont think its reliable. AlbinoFerret 19:22, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- example Cloudjpk (talk) 19:16, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Request for Full Protection --->via the ARB to exercising its defined Discretionary Powers reflected/asserted in the posted ALERT
The ALERT posted for this Article is being worked around. Described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Electronic_cigarette#ALERT.2C_and_Discussion_for_this_Article_moving_forward_past_the_ARB.2C_and_proper_stewardship
The outcome of the last 2 ARB was not a walk away, but to post notice of an ALERT. Editors are forcing in changes, tag teaming, POV pushing, and using the 3RR rule under the guise of BOLD editing to push in changes. They are a precise corollary to the recent editor that was topic banned. The above link describes it in detail. An editor has stated his editing style, is to put mass changes in and not object to reverts. 1. That is not BOLD editing. 2. Associated editors are already putting those edits in. Unless I am given an exemption to 3RR (which can not happen) Their stated POV will be supplanted into the article
Here is the link to a change removing a significant study. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693703109&oldid=693703019 This is a controlled study the examine what the outcomes would be for cessation with smokers who were selected because they did not have intention to quit smoking. It a very important study. ◄▬▬ This answers the question "why are you bothering"
As others have said on talk page a blizzard of edits are coming in. Because the ARB retained discretionary ability, and notices were posted of same, I am requesting that action take place. I am requesting at Full Protection of the article (for an undefined term). The FDA will soon be publishing new rules for Electronic Cigarettes at the start of they new year, so this is not going to get easier over time.
I do not believe I need to open up any ARBs, I believe this request is sufficient for the ARB to undertake its duties, which were posted in the Alert. The ARB established its duty to this Page through issuing an Alert, proclaiming their ongoing discressionary powers to the Article.
@Spartaz:,@EdJohnston:,@L235:,@Rhoark:,@Gamaliel:,@Lankiveil:,@DeltaQuad:,@NativeForeigner:@Seraphimblade:,@Doug Weller:@Euryalus:,@LFaraone:@Thryduulf:,@DGG:
I am asking the ARB do so now. This is a consequence of the last ARBs. A new ARB is not needed. Full Protection (undefined length) is a reasonable solution, stands to save 100+ hours of ARB time, and will improve the article. Doing the same thing over and expecting the same result=NEW ARB. The ALERT was hurdled with glee. Thank you. Mystery Wolff (talk) 17:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- This needs to be requested at WP:RPP. Doug Weller (talk) 17:31, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- This was first raised as an option by EdJohnston on this page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AElectronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693744308&oldid=693739701 I believe that is the inevitable need/outcome, and that it can be done by the ARB per their own direction premised upon their own alert Alert. I have said same here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Request_for_Full_Protection_---.3Evia_the_ARB_to_exercising_its_defined_Discretionary_Powers_regarding_Electronic_Cigarettes
- If nothing else they have first right of refusal to take it up. I believe that Full Protection needs to be done by the ARB itself. Mystery Wolff (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- And to be frank I don't think I have the WP:Competence to request Page Protection, outside of a plea for the ARB to use the discretion provided under their Alert. I am maxed out on my learning curve right here. Mystery Wolff (talk) 17:58, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- This was first raised as an option by EdJohnston on this page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AElectronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693744308&oldid=693739701 I believe that is the inevitable need/outcome, and that it can be done by the ARB per their own direction premised upon their own alert Alert. I have said same here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Request_for_Full_Protection_---.3Evia_the_ARB_to_exercising_its_defined_Discretionary_Powers_regarding_Electronic_Cigarettes
- Please do not fully protect this article. I believe that there is broad consensus in favour of giving this article a moderately drastic haircut, opposed only by this editor Mystery Wolff who seems to wish for this article to crystallise in its current, horribly-written form. I'm actually quite willing to listen to this editor but he's never tried to communicate with me personally. I would be grateful if an uninvolved sysop could take him in hand, calm him down, explain to him the purpose of User talk:S Marshall and discuss the reasons why it is considered courteous to be succinct and concise.—S Marshall T/C 18:22, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment I also am against protection. No edit warring has happened. This latest section is a continuation of talk page disruption. I have opened a AE section on them.[16] AlbinoFerret 18:39, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment I agree with both of the above. The article is in flux following several editors on self imposed pause during the ARB and the topic banning of a disruptive editor. If there are any issues with specific edits they should be reverted and raised on the talk page. There's been no edit warring of reverted edits, where there's been disagreement it's been reverted to original state and left be in all but one case where S Marshall made a grammar correcting edit and corrected the text to source. Mystery Wolff reverted it to a grammatically incorrect state and I undid the revert. Mystery Wolff has responded to that with this ARB alert rather than any discussion of the content of the edits, as he has with every disagreement so far. SPACKlick (talk) 20:00, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose There is a lot of clearing-up going on after the topic banning of QuackGuru. This is entirely to be expected, and won't last forever. No doubt some babies are being removed with the bathwater, but the best thing is to query these individually, or wait until the dust settles and then discuss what we have at that point. Mystery Wolff's strangely vague histrionics on talk, and pretty erratic edits to the article, are not especially helpful at this point. No need for protection. Johnbod (talk) 20:58, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm seeing a consensus against protection here and no reason not to follow it. @Mystery Wolff: I strongly recommend you take the advice of the experienced editors on this page and discuss the specific issues you have with the article, your current approach is disruptive and if you persist you may be facing a topic ban or other sanction. Thryduulf (talk) 23:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Aggregated Response to Comments: S Marshall, Fully Protection is not "no changes" I was a process suggested as an option for a month by @EdJohnston:, in this Articles Talk pages. I think the 1 month should not be a hard-coded timeframe, if the article goes that way. Full Protection just means that edits need to be created and passed through to admin to accomplish (I will read up on it more, but we are currently at semi-protection, and that is a poor Status Quo. S Marshall, when you say "moderately drastic haircut", this is the problem, and Admins should see it clearly, you don't hide it. You are reverting text, deleting studies, rewording the citations so they are YOURS, and NOT reflective of the source. I have listed SOME of them already, and you REFUSE to address them. And MOST RECENTLY have a tag-team approach to having other editors push in you BOLD edits. The BOLD editing style without any reponse to talk. I am sorry I am a bump in the road for the ol'gang who fell the terrible QuackGuru. But I am a researcher, and when you blow away study citations, and the text, that took hours to edit in. I do know there is a problem. It is a pure charade now, to say you are willing to listen. I was required to revert 2 of your edits, and you just laughed and moved, and said you would come back to it. Other edits you have other edits edit back in, without using the revert button. Gamed yes, listened to, not. Why not just describe the major haircut, BEFOREHAND. You have said you are a man on mission, and won't be deterred. I believe you.
- AlbinoFerret, I have not read yet and won't have time until later tonight to read your complaint. But considering you have said that there is not Edit Warring. And I am saying I need to revert items, and poor edits are happening, and S Marshall is asserting a MAJOR HAIRCUT IS BEING DONE, and your only beef is that I have used the Talk page? That I am asking for Full Protection, after you went onto my talk page to say you would ENFORCE something on me? Hello? I am using proper process. I have worked in PRODUCTION SYSTEMS BEFORE. I am attempting to leave the production system, what the world sees, as clean as possible and trying to put in logical and changes. This major haircut...what is it?
- SPACKlick, If there was some sort of self imposed hiatus from editing this article, SORRY I was not part of that team of editors agreeing on that. Its the usual members of the MULTIPLE ARBs that are complaining. I suppose the theory is you knock off an editor, and the tag-team runs rough shot over any other editors. How is what is happening otherwise? SPACKlick, I wrote on the edits, that I was replacing the content and the context of the articles, that was removed. CONTEXT was removed. And it was done in 3 sections. Please do not say I did not describe in my edit summary. I USE THE EDIT SUMMARY to communicate to other editors.
- Johnbod, No need for protection? You thing Semi-Protection should go? Studies are being deleted, important ones. Babies as you say are leaving with the bathwater. Protect them before all of the previous efforts are white-washed to a POV group. Asking an admin to move in a set of changes is hardly as bad as the length of time for a 10 person ARB panel with 8 witnesses, and 4 litigants.
- Thryduulf, With all due respect, please show me these experienced editors who have not been actively running this Article into the ground? I get a complaint on me from AlbinoFerret, for using the Talk pages? For not Edit Warring? To have a voice against a galvanized if not organized POV set of editors. If it was wording, if it was grammar, if it was briefity, I would be OK. MAKE NO MISTAKE. STUDIES ARE BEING DELETED THAT PASSED MUSTER FOR INCLUSION....just vaporized. CONTEXT AND CONTEXT OF CITES ARE BEING REFORMED.
- A group of editors wants to do a drastic haircut, but they won't say what it going to look like, trust them, and when edits are reverted, they are not using the Bold process, they are working to team them in. WHY NOT EXPLAIN THE HAIRCUT FIRST...especially with S MARSHALL professed inflexibility to feedback in TALK. YES, look around, is there a problem with this approach Y or N. I know my talk page is being tagged and blasted for me to not edit this article. I am following the rules. And will continue to. Mystery Wolff (talk) 01:04, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Suggestion: Why not copy this article into draft space and work on changes there? Once finished revising the draft, all the changes can be reviewed at once rather than changing the active article at a rapid pace. Sizeofint (talk) 05:40, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I read your edit summary Mystery wolf, and I disagreed. There was no relevant context lost and the content more accurately reflected the cite. If you want to raise a specific issue, then as you have been told several times your best bet is to drop the stick, stop calling i the admins and start a discussion over the specifics you are having issues with. What relevant context do you eel was lost and why? What relevant content do you feel was lost and why? How does the edit less reflect the contents of the cite and why? Start a discussion section, even if it's a specific edit to elucidate a general principle. Some studies that are perfectly valid may well be deleted where the article already reflects there conclusions elsewhere. This article is not intended to be a list of every study but, in the relevant sections, a general summary of the consensus. SPACKlick (talk) 07:54, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Aggregated Response to Comments: S Marshall, Fully Protection is not "no changes" I was a process suggested as an option for a month by @EdJohnston:, in this Articles Talk pages. I think the 1 month should not be a hard-coded timeframe, if the article goes that way. Full Protection just means that edits need to be created and passed through to admin to accomplish (I will read up on it more, but we are currently at semi-protection, and that is a poor Status Quo. S Marshall, when you say "moderately drastic haircut", this is the problem, and Admins should see it clearly, you don't hide it. You are reverting text, deleting studies, rewording the citations so they are YOURS, and NOT reflective of the source. I have listed SOME of them already, and you REFUSE to address them. And MOST RECENTLY have a tag-team approach to having other editors push in you BOLD edits. The BOLD editing style without any reponse to talk. I am sorry I am a bump in the road for the ol'gang who fell the terrible QuackGuru. But I am a researcher, and when you blow away study citations, and the text, that took hours to edit in. I do know there is a problem. It is a pure charade now, to say you are willing to listen. I was required to revert 2 of your edits, and you just laughed and moved, and said you would come back to it. Other edits you have other edits edit back in, without using the revert button. Gamed yes, listened to, not. Why not just describe the major haircut, BEFOREHAND. You have said you are a man on mission, and won't be deterred. I believe you.
- A few points, Mystery Wolff:-
- The fact that other editors support my changes does not make us a tag team.
- I have described my intentions on this talk page on a number of occasions previously, but this may have been before you started editing. I intend to rewrite this article so that it's accessible to a schoolchild -- a vulnerable person who's heard of e-cigarettes and is considering taking a puff. This is the kind of person who is likely to be turning to Wikipedia for information. Everyone else here has heard me say this.
- At the moment the article is written for and accessible to people with college degrees who make decisions for a living.
- No, I am not going to submit each of my changes to the Article Edit Approval Committee on the talk page before I make them. I fought a four month Arbcom case so that I wouldn't have to do that. It's needless and bureaucratic.
- I do intend to discuss each controversial change on the talk page. The way I find out which changes are controversial is to try them and see if anyone reverts. This is normal behaviour on Wikipedia.
- Yes, I removed a sourced sentence. It was incoherent and horribly-written. (Actually I tagged it, waited three days, and then removed it.) After I'd removed it, it was rewritten in decent, comprehensible English and put back. I have not objected. This is the normal editing process at work.
- I hope this helps.—S Marshall T/C 08:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think point #2 is probably going a little too far. It should probably be accessible to, say, high school students. For children, we have simple.wikipedia.org. A better alternative to #6 (a more "normal editing process") in most circumstances is to simply rewrite the sentence instead of deleting it. Other than those quibbles, that all sounds reasonable, and just what most of us do. I don't see any grounds for page protection (and this isn't the venue to request it anyway). There's a natural tension between SPACKlick's observation that we're not here to catalogue every possible source and its contents, and Wolff's concerns that sources and sourced material are being deleted. I think this can probably be handled on a case-by-case basis on the talk page. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:42, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- By "schoolchild" I mean someone about the age of 14 or 15 -- the kind of age where people take up nicotine habits.—S Marshall T/C 22:21, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- S Marshall with your agenda, its more of a pamphlet that would be given out by an advocacy group, or a personal blog with an agenda. But that is not an encyclopedic entry. Your are re-purposing the Article to fit your form, function and your targeted audience. Mystery Wolff (talk) 08:01, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Rubbish. The accusation that I'm turning the article into an advocacy pamphlet is bizarre and offensive, as most of your other allegations are. Yes, I am re-purposing the article, which currently reflects QuackGuru's agenda. Yes, I believe that it's largely pitched at the wrong level. On the rest of it: what kind of weird freak do you take me for?—S Marshall T/C 08:35, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Grana2014
Like P Walford (talk · contribs), I too had noticed that this article contains an awful lot of references to Grana 2014 and I was meaning to begin a discussion about this myself. Do we feel it's getting too much weight?—S Marshall T/C 14:48, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, There's a lot of data being pulled from it. Some of that was questioned at the time (see farsalinos letter of response) and hasn't been borne out in susbsequent published work. We probably ought to go through where it's being used and see if the info is still relevant in subsequent studies. SPACKlick (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- There are 2 sources named Grana from 2014. 1 is the report for the Who, 2 is a primary source. I would think that the primary sources is not even suitable for the article. So far we have relied on secondary sources. If it remains any addition should be real small and attributed. AlbinoFerret 14:57, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
List of claims sourced to Grana & Glantz 2014. "E-cigarettes: a scientific review."
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1) They are often cylindrical, but come in many variations. |
List of Claims sourced to Grana & Ling 2014. "Smoking revolution": a content analysis of electronic cigarette retail websites
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1)A 2014 review found "Health-related and lifestyle appeals may also encourage initiation among young non-smokers, as they may convey that trying e-cigarettes is less risky and more socially appealing, which may ameliorate negative beliefs or concerns about nicotine addiction." |
- One is a reviiew, though not I think for the WHO - it cites the 2014 WHO report. It is used a lot. The other, little cited, is primary, but about advertising claims, which in itself is one of the aspects of the subject rather outside MEDRS' scope (and also one where the expertise of the medical authors may be questioned). No doubt it has been picked up by other reviews by now though. Johnbod (talk) 15:10, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I was referring to the second (primary) source. Its inclusion criteria severely limit its usefulness. PubMed says it has been cited 30 times, but only by one review -- Grana 2014. P Walford (talk) 15:41, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Of the claims sourced to the second (primary) source, I think that claims #1, #2 and #4 are of the "sky is blue" level of obviousness. I feel they can be said in Wikipedia's voice, using this source as an inline citation, and without encumbering the text with in-text attribution. Claim #3 is not a major contribution to the sum of human knowledge and I feel the article could be improved by removing it.—S Marshall T/C 15:48, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree that 1, 2 and 4 are sufficiently supported claims to be in wikipedia's voice. 3 does contain relevant information but the delivery of that information could stand to be significantly trimmed in wordiness. SPACKlick (talk) 15:57, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I was referring to the second (primary) source. Its inclusion criteria severely limit its usefulness. PubMed says it has been cited 30 times, but only by one review -- Grana 2014. P Walford (talk) 15:41, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- One is a reviiew, though not I think for the WHO - it cites the 2014 WHO report. It is used a lot. The other, little cited, is primary, but about advertising claims, which in itself is one of the aspects of the subject rather outside MEDRS' scope (and also one where the expertise of the medical authors may be questioned). No doubt it has been picked up by other reviews by now though. Johnbod (talk) 15:10, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Looks like we have consensus then.—S Marshall T/C 18:22, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- 26 hours since the question was raised is too short a time for that. A large part of the problem with this page has been that the number of edits and topics made keeping-up with it a task requiring considerable time daily. We need to stop this. Johnbod (talk) 02:44, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement about regulation restored to Health effects section
[17] User:Doc James, care to explain why? P Walford (talk) 13:52, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- You mean why I fixed the ref? Or why I readded the details removed without discussion?Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:02, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- "As of 2014[update] electronic cigarettes had not been approved as a smoking cessation device by any government.ref name=WHOPosition2014/>" isn't really true, this being 2015. I'm not sure if any actual e-cig has been approved as medicine in any EU country, but in the UK the approvals process is being decided, subject to the final UK legislation implementing the directive. A consultation process on the regulations ended in September. If not here, this has been pointed out when removed from other articles. Johnbod (talk) 18:12, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- The details weren't removed. They were moved to the appropriate section -- Regulation. Why should the statement be in Health effects? P Walford (talk) 18:19, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sounds like a regulation claim to me. AlbinoFerret 04:26, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Ah yes see that the statement was moved rather than removed.
- Are they approved as a smoking cessation aid in the UK? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:58, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- The advice varies
Electronic cigarettes are to be licensed and regulated as an aid to quit smoking from 2016, it has been announced. ... Some health professionals do not recommend them because they believe the potential for harm is significant.
NHS news 2013 updated August 2015,Quit4Life is proud to be one of the first "e-cigarette friendly" NHS stop smoking services in the country. Whether you quit smoking using traditional medication or an e-cigarette, evidence shows that you have a much better chance of quitting...
Quit4Life regional NHS program 2014 It seems to be left to individual doctors/practices until the full effects of the TPD come into effect in 2016 SPACKlick (talk) 07:23, 4 December 2015 (UTC)- So in other words not yet. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:22, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- It won't be "they", in the sense of all e-cigs, obviously, but individual models etc which have gone through the (massively expensive) process of approval as medicine. This process has not been finalized, partly because the final legislation has not been passed. But it won't be like Canada, where all devices must be approved but the authorities apparently have no intention of approving any. Where other EU countries bound by the TPD have got to I can't establish. Nonethless I think the TPD, which is passed and commits all the EU countries to similar regimes is enough to make the WHO statement misleading now, as phrased. It would not be more misleading to say "electronic cigarettes have been approved as a smoking cessation device by 26 governments". Johnbod (talk) 11:21, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- One electronic cigarette (voke inhaler) is approved as a smoking cessation aid (CLICK).--Merlin 1971 (talk) 13:08, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- I know about that one, but it isn't an e-cig (see PHE report for example). The 40+ page PDF you link to does an astonishingly bad job at explaining what the product is and how it works, but it is clear from the last pages that no form of electricity is involved. Johnbod (talk) 13:17, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- This one however (e-voke) is an e-cigarette and has recently received a marketing authorisation in the UK - http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/par/documents/websiteresources/con616843.pdf 88.107.224.11 (talk) 16:14, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think it is actually - the MHRA approval is as usual catastrophically unclear as to how it works, but this piece in the Torygraph distinguishes it from e-cigs, and it certainly doesn't work the same way as the ones described in this article. See the company's graphic. This uses the electric power to squirt a measured dose of nicotine-containing vapour into the user's mouth. It doesn't sound very attractive, & I can't see it selling well, unless it becomes prescribable. It was approved in September 2014 in fact, but doesn't seem to be on sale yet. Johnbod (talk) 17:32, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry but I don't agree. The Telegraph article (from last year) refers to a different product from the MA granted on 19 November 2015 that I linked to. Clearly that (the 45mg nicotine product) is not an e-cigarette. The more recent MHRA authorisation, for a 10/15mg electronic product, refers to the product previously being marketed as a non licenced Intellicig (a cigalike) and the description matches that of an e-cigarette. Even if it doesn't describe in detail how it works, the description is sufficient to deduce that it is an electronic inhaler commonly known as an e-cigarette. 88.107.224.11 (talk) 12:07, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm. The PDF seems to bear no date, and there is nothing about it in the media that I can see. There are two mentions of "vaporiser" (American spelling) on page 8, so you might be right, but it is all very unclear. We can't use this as a source I think. Johnbod (talk) 14:56, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Here is another source (dated today). OK so it is the Daily Mail, but still :) 88.107.224.11 (talk) 15:39, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Now that is interesting, and what the graphic shows seems to be a conventional cigalike. Let's see how the story develops. Johnbod (talk) 15:46, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Im with you johnbod, waiting to see what sources appear is a good idea, we will need a better source than the Daily Mail if the UK did approve an e-cig. AlbinoFerret 16:25, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Now that is interesting, and what the graphic shows seems to be a conventional cigalike. Let's see how the story develops. Johnbod (talk) 15:46, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Here is another source (dated today). OK so it is the Daily Mail, but still :) 88.107.224.11 (talk) 15:39, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm. The PDF seems to bear no date, and there is nothing about it in the media that I can see. There are two mentions of "vaporiser" (American spelling) on page 8, so you might be right, but it is all very unclear. We can't use this as a source I think. Johnbod (talk) 14:56, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- I will point out, it lacks a battery in the images comparing it to e-cigs that I have found. Doesnt look like it uses heating to create the aerosol. AlbinoFerret 17:44, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, that seems to come pre-made and pressurized in the cartridge. Johnbod (talk) 17:53, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Nothing more than a regular inhaler in the form of a cigalike. Sells better. You can see it better here.--TMCk (talk) 17:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Doesn't sell at all yet. And you only get 20 "charges" per cartridge. Johnbod (talk) 17:53, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry but I don't agree. The Telegraph article (from last year) refers to a different product from the MA granted on 19 November 2015 that I linked to. Clearly that (the 45mg nicotine product) is not an e-cigarette. The more recent MHRA authorisation, for a 10/15mg electronic product, refers to the product previously being marketed as a non licenced Intellicig (a cigalike) and the description matches that of an e-cigarette. Even if it doesn't describe in detail how it works, the description is sufficient to deduce that it is an electronic inhaler commonly known as an e-cigarette. 88.107.224.11 (talk) 12:07, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think it is actually - the MHRA approval is as usual catastrophically unclear as to how it works, but this piece in the Torygraph distinguishes it from e-cigs, and it certainly doesn't work the same way as the ones described in this article. See the company's graphic. This uses the electric power to squirt a measured dose of nicotine-containing vapour into the user's mouth. It doesn't sound very attractive, & I can't see it selling well, unless it becomes prescribable. It was approved in September 2014 in fact, but doesn't seem to be on sale yet. Johnbod (talk) 17:32, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- This one however (e-voke) is an e-cigarette and has recently received a marketing authorisation in the UK - http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/par/documents/websiteresources/con616843.pdf 88.107.224.11 (talk) 16:14, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- I know about that one, but it isn't an e-cig (see PHE report for example). The 40+ page PDF you link to does an astonishingly bad job at explaining what the product is and how it works, but it is clear from the last pages that no form of electricity is involved. Johnbod (talk) 13:17, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- One electronic cigarette (voke inhaler) is approved as a smoking cessation aid (CLICK).--Merlin 1971 (talk) 13:08, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- It won't be "they", in the sense of all e-cigs, obviously, but individual models etc which have gone through the (massively expensive) process of approval as medicine. This process has not been finalized, partly because the final legislation has not been passed. But it won't be like Canada, where all devices must be approved but the authorities apparently have no intention of approving any. Where other EU countries bound by the TPD have got to I can't establish. Nonethless I think the TPD, which is passed and commits all the EU countries to similar regimes is enough to make the WHO statement misleading now, as phrased. It would not be more misleading to say "electronic cigarettes have been approved as a smoking cessation device by 26 governments". Johnbod (talk) 11:21, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- So in other words not yet. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:22, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- The advice varies
- Sounds like a regulation claim to me. AlbinoFerret 04:26, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- You mean why I fixed the ref? Or why I readded the details removed without discussion?Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:02, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
OK... But there is another one: The "e-Voke" was approved a few weeks ago.--Merlin 1971 (talk) 17:22, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, see an inch or two back. This probably is significant, but clearer info is needed. The media have not really picked up on this, and they aren't on sale. But this certainly seems to justify cutting the sentence we began this section for. Johnbod (talk) 16:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Interesting sources
I am looking for sources on marketing. In this section I will mention sources not in the article that may be interesting but dont fit the needs above.
- Patterns of Electronic Cigarette Use Among Adults in the United States
- The impact of price and tobacco control policies on the demand for electronic nicotine delivery systems
- Risk Beliefs and Preferences for E-Cigarettes
AlbinoFerret 16:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
New article
See E-liquid. Do editors want to keep it or redirect it? I could expand it to include more information about the chemicals added to the liquid. QuackGuru (talk) 18:41, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- The article contains nothing but duplicative information from Construction and should be removed. Adding Safety information or other information from the articles to it would make it a coatrack and would duplicate information from that article. I know of no discussions of splitting off e-liquid from Construction and the pages creation without the same is a big problem. AlbinoFerret 19:10, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to keep it for now. It's obviously all just a copy now, but there is plenty of coverage of flavours (targeted at children or not), the market, strengths, regulation and so on that is far from fully covered at present in the other articles. But it needs to develop its own content. Johnbod (talk) 19:17, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think the section in Construction should be expanded first. There is a lot of room to expand it. At the moment it is unnecessary to have a separate. There may never be a need for a separate page. I don't have additional sources to expand the page. QuackGuru (talk) 19:25, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Johnbod, if its kept, I think we should remove the information from Construction. I never thought of eliquid as part of construction which imho should be more hardware related. Eliquid is more software. We could add a link to see also. AlbinoFerret 19:33, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
If anyone finds more sources please post them on the e-liquid talk page or help expand the page. It is a bit short. QuackGuru (talk) 18:33, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Obvious content fork of Electronic cigarette aerosol,
to which it should be merged.And "e-liquid" is meaningless jargon to anyone who is not an electronic cigarette user (or who doesn't live right near a shop that specializes in them and uses this jargon in their window advertising). "E-juice" and "e-vapor" are the exact same topic, other than what state the material is in because it has or hasn't been used yet. We don't have separate articles on gasoline in a can and gasoline as it's being combusted in an engine, or beef as its being sliced for cooking and beef as it's coming out of the oven. "E-liquid" in the bottle is not a notable topic, as it doesn't do anything or have any effects. The aerosol is the notable topic, since it does and it's what all the research is about. In skimming E-liquid I cannot see a single thing in it that cannot be merged to Electronic cigarette aerosol, and doing so would make a notable improvement in said article. It could also merge in some other way [see below], though I think it's too much material to merge into the main Electronic cigarette article which is already getting unwieldy under WP:SUMMARY. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:48, 28 November 2015 (UTC)Better solution outlined at #differentsolution anchor in the "Discussion" section. Tl;dr: The aerosol article is actually redundant in its most important parts with the safety article; merging in that direction would leave only non-biomed info about the aerosol, which could be merged into the liquid article, and that article kept, with the aerosol one being the page that gets merged away. It's a cleaner way to get rid of one of the pages than merging from liquid to aerosol. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Oppose Merge The subjects are notable and can stand alone. There is room on WP for one small e-cig article WP:NOTPAPERAlbinoFerret 23:54, 28 November 2015 (UTC)- Suport Merge. E-liquid is what is used to make the aerosol. Same topic. QuackGuru (talk) 01:06, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Discussion
- The material could be merged in some other way, e.g. to "Electronic cigarette liquid and aerosol", or even all into the main article at least for a while. The point is that we don't need vying articles for the same product as it is sitting on the shelf and being used. Even the pics are just examples of the marketing of what one puts into and gets out of the e-cig device. The more significant material from an encyclopedic standpoint is the composition and health information, but there's no reason to exclude the marketing information. There's just not a compelling reason for splitting that into a separate article. Imagine if we had, instead of Smokeless tobacco, "Smokeless tobacco pouches and snuff" to cover the packaging, and "Smokeless tobacco spit" to cover what comes out of that product and technically delivers the nicotine? The only reasons we have a separate Tobacco smoke article are a) there are separate articles on different forms of smoking, like cigars, cigarettes, pipes, hookas, and b) the amount of research material on tobacco smoke, both for smokers and secondarily, is huge, and there's also separate legislation on smoking as an activity (to keep smoke away from non-smokers) versus the regulation of sales of cigarettes, etc. To merge all of that into one article would not be feasible. We don't have that kind of situation here. We have a pretty large amount of material about e-cigs, large enough to support probably a split about chemical material (and its marketing and health effects) vs the device and its operation, just as we have separate articles on tobacco the material and various things like pipes and hookah and so on. I think there's some personality conflicts involved here. I've seen it alleged by various editors that Electronic cigarette aerosol is primarily the "owned" article of one editor, and see that editor claims that E-liquid is someone else's attempt to do likewise (and that some sockpuppetry has been involved). None of that seems relevant to whether we're producing good article content that is well organized. At this point, I'm starting to think it might be better to merge it all for a while into this article, sort it out, then work up a proper WP:SUMMARY split plan. However, I think the it would conclude in the end to split out the "stuff" from the "device" (particularly since there may be more devices than e-cigs in which the "stuff" can be used) and not have a pre-/post-use split in the "stuff" material. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- If it is not to be stand-alone I agree Electronic cigarette aerosol is the better place to put it, but since that term is surely far less well known than e-liquid (and most people still think it is "vapour") the name would certainly need changing. Actually there are dozens, if not hundreds, of very short articles relating to aspects of smoking, so that lengthy spiel backfires imo. Johnbod (talk) 04:04, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'd be in favor of merging quite a few of those tobacco topics, too, but keep in mind that the volume of material involved about tobacco is about an order of magnitude larger, so many such merges wouldn't be doable. Another issue is that many of them are separate pages for long-term cultural reasons; a hookah isn't just some variant of a pipe, etc. There are no such consideration with a globally marketed product that's only been around a few years.
I don't quite see the rationale for merging both these e-cig–related pages to E-liquid. (This will be semi-long, too, because of the number of criteria in WP:AT.) It seems to be a WP:COMMONNAME argument, but that rubric applies to multiple names for the same topic (e.g. dipping tobacco vs. moist snuff, etc.), and is not always the logic that gets applied anyway ("dipping tobacco" is not actually the common name, but a WP:DESCRIPTDIS; there are so many names for that stuff that none of them are demonstrable to be the common one exception regionally, so a descriptive term was chosen; this problem is also why many plant species articles are at the scientific names instead of one of conflicting vernacular ones). Here we have multiple names for different states of the same subject material, which isn't quite the same thing as different names for the same subject. We only have articles on specific states of a material when they're independently notable of another state (Ice, Liquid nitrogen, Ground beef). There seems to be no notable use for "e-liquid" other than aerosolizing it. The most encyclopedic aspect of the topic is the aerosol, not what it looks like in cute packages people call "e-liquid" or "e-juice" (and for which the common name probably is the latter anyway). Cf. Incense; we don't have separate articles for the stick, cone, powder, resin, oil, etc. forms; the packaging isn't independently notable, the state of it in actual use as smoky stuff is the meat of the topic, and we secondarily cover how it is packaged and sold before use. The fact that so many people have been misled into thinking it's a vapor is a good reason to use the aerosol title, since this is an encyclopedia with an educational mission, and "vapor", like "juice", is a misnomer. Next, "e-liquid" is both jargon and an abbreviation, which we avoid in titles for severable reasons; we'd surely use "Electronic cigarette liquid" were the merge to run the other way, for WP:PRECISION and for WP:CONSISTENCY with the other articles in the series. It wouldn't present any WP:RECOGNIZABILITY problems (the RM to rename Electronic cigarette aerosol to use "vapor" concluded that as well with regard to that topic). It just would not be the most WP:CONCISE conceivable name, but that's the criterion we most often sacrifice in favor of the others (after commonness, when it does not quite address the full scope of the content). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 05:34, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'd be in favor of merging quite a few of those tobacco topics, too, but keep in mind that the volume of material involved about tobacco is about an order of magnitude larger, so many such merges wouldn't be doable. Another issue is that many of them are separate pages for long-term cultural reasons; a hookah isn't just some variant of a pipe, etc. There are no such consideration with a globally marketed product that's only been around a few years.
- If it is not to be stand-alone I agree Electronic cigarette aerosol is the better place to put it, but since that term is surely far less well known than e-liquid (and most people still think it is "vapour") the name would certainly need changing. Actually there are dozens, if not hundreds, of very short articles relating to aspects of smoking, so that lengthy spiel backfires imo. Johnbod (talk) 04:04, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Personally, I'm a lumper not a splitter. I think that the number of articles we have in this topic area is unnecessarily bloated and will definitely confuse the uninformed reader: see Category:Electronic cigarettes. I think that having separate articles on Safety of electronic cigarettes and Positions of medical organizations on electronic cigarettes can no longer be justified, since the disruption in the topic area has abated for the time being (I think it should now be possible to remove duplicative and superseded content even if it's sourced). I would be in favour of merging e-liquid and electronic cigarette aerosol. However, I also think this is the wrong place for the discussion and would recommend that it happens on the talk page of one of the articles to be merged.—S Marshall T/C 10:13, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Normally that would be SOP, but centralization works better in a topic like this, because all eyes on are this page, and hardly anyone's watchlisting the recent split-offs. Centralizing whether to merge these pages on the main page of the topic, especially when that page is one of the proposed targets of the merge, and both of aerosol and liquid pages have been suggested for merging back into this main articles, will reduce the chance of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS problems. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:37, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I created the E-Liquid page. I must say that I am frustrated to have read two of the above editors opining that I am a sockpuppet. I am not. If there is a cliche of editors that OWN these page's content, I am unaware it and thus strategising to the same, seems not conducive. But regardless.
- E-liquid is aerosolized as a matter of fact. And encyclopedia should make readers aware of popular confusion of terms, which are science based, but it should not adopt that definition for the sake of convenience. There is an electronic cigarette (or generations of same- by alternate names). There is the E-Liquid. And there is the is the aerosol. Each is unique and each has its own issues. I believe each should have its own page, though some smaller information should be inside of Electronic Cigarettes, and link to aerosol and E-liquid as the main areas. For example E-Liquid has concerns over manufacturing and regulations. Aerosol has concerns of impact to user and others. A car has fuel, and exhaust. There is a page called Vapor (inhalation) which is actually for TRUE vaporizers. E-Liquid is incorrectly grouped within that page, which I will want to move off. To do that I would reference E-Cigarettes, explain why they are aerosol and not vaporization very Briefly.....and then put signposts for the correct pages for that content. Thank you Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:16, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I created the E-Liquid page. I must say that I am frustrated to have read two of the above editors opining that I am a sockpuppet. I am not. If there is a cliche of editors that OWN these page's content, I am unaware it and thus strategising to the same, seems not conducive. But regardless.
- @S Marshall and SMcCandlish electronic cigarette aerosol was improperly split off from Safety, as it sits now Aerosol is a POV fork/coatrack with nothing removed from Safety to aerosol, just copied. Safety needs a lot of work in organizing and c/e for readability and flow. I may have time tomorrow to start this and move a lot of the aerosol/vapor stuff from Saefty to aerosol and leave a summery on Safety and a link. But I also think that e-liquid is a strange fit anywhere. Perhaps leave it as it is until the split is correctly done for safety/aerosol because I have a feeling aerosol is going to grow considerably. Then perhaps split off e liquid from aerosol to shrink the page down after growing? AlbinoFerret 19:40, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm. OK, well, that seems to provide a different possible solution: If the aerosol safety material were merged back into the safety article, that would leave A) what this stuff is, chemically, B) the technical process by which it becomes an aerosol from the liquid, and C) the marketing and other non-technical/non-biomed stuff. A and C appear to be material that could be merged into the liquid article, with C summarized in detail in the safety article. B probably belongs in the main article with the other material on on e-cig operation, and summarized at the liquid article. Both A and C would be summarized briefly in the main article. Then there's no need for the aerosol article, and the liquid article has a reason to exist, mostly to hold the non-biomed material. This would resolve the conflict between having redundant articles on two matter states of the same product, and consolidate the safety/health info in one main article, with the aerosol/vapor titles redirecting to it, and a hatnote disambiguating to the article on the "e-liquid" for people looking for non-biomed info on it. That would arguably be a "cleaner" result than moving safety into out of the safety article into the aerosol article. The core reason I supported moving the liquid info into the aero. article is that the aero. safety is the most important part of "the story" of the liquid/aerosol. But if that's ultimately the focus of the safety article, then that's taken care of and the aero. article is redundant. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:19, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- The thing is, there wont be much to merge back to Safety, nothing was taken out of it, just copied over. But its probably a good idea to double check to make sure. If you look at Construction of electronic cigarettes, it has a pretty good section on the technical operation of the device. There was already a lot of it on the page when I started to organize the page and started to make it more readable, it really wasnt done any place else. To me Construction is in half way decient shape, and will get better now that there is no longer a brick wall. E-liquid was split off of Construction, but it didnt really fit there either. By the way, I was able to start a little on the organizing of safety. There is a lot of duplication. AlbinoFerret 03:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- The thing is, there wont be much to merge back to Safety, nothing was taken out of it, just copied over. But its probably a good idea to double check to make sure. If you look at Construction of electronic cigarettes, it has a pretty good section on the technical operation of the device. There was already a lot of it on the page when I started to organize the page and started to make it more readable, it really wasnt done any place else. To me Construction is in half way decient shape, and will get better now that there is no longer a brick wall. E-liquid was split off of Construction, but it didnt really fit there either. By the way, I was able to start a little on the organizing of safety. There is a lot of duplication. AlbinoFerret 03:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm. OK, well, that seems to provide a different possible solution: If the aerosol safety material were merged back into the safety article, that would leave A) what this stuff is, chemically, B) the technical process by which it becomes an aerosol from the liquid, and C) the marketing and other non-technical/non-biomed stuff. A and C appear to be material that could be merged into the liquid article, with C summarized in detail in the safety article. B probably belongs in the main article with the other material on on e-cig operation, and summarized at the liquid article. Both A and C would be summarized briefly in the main article. Then there's no need for the aerosol article, and the liquid article has a reason to exist, mostly to hold the non-biomed material. This would resolve the conflict between having redundant articles on two matter states of the same product, and consolidate the safety/health info in one main article, with the aerosol/vapor titles redirecting to it, and a hatnote disambiguating to the article on the "e-liquid" for people looking for non-biomed info on it. That would arguably be a "cleaner" result than moving safety into out of the safety article into the aerosol article. The core reason I supported moving the liquid info into the aero. article is that the aero. safety is the most important part of "the story" of the liquid/aerosol. But if that's ultimately the focus of the safety article, then that's taken care of and the aero. article is redundant. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:19, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- @S Marshall and SMcCandlish electronic cigarette aerosol was improperly split off from Safety, as it sits now Aerosol is a POV fork/coatrack with nothing removed from Safety to aerosol, just copied. Safety needs a lot of work in organizing and c/e for readability and flow. I may have time tomorrow to start this and move a lot of the aerosol/vapor stuff from Saefty to aerosol and leave a summery on Safety and a link. But I also think that e-liquid is a strange fit anywhere. Perhaps leave it as it is until the split is correctly done for safety/aerosol because I have a feeling aerosol is going to grow considerably. Then perhaps split off e liquid from aerosol to shrink the page down after growing? AlbinoFerret 19:40, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
PROPOSAL Merge e-liquid and electronic cigarette aerosol into one Called: E-Liquid and E-Liquid Aerosol (Vape)
I can see removing (Vape) but it does add clarification with a unique word, that is not Vapor. E-liquid is not vaporized by the dictionary definitions. However Vape is a new word.
Removal of Electronic Cigarette is good, because its more associate with one variety of "Vaping" equipment. E-Liquid is used in all forms of EC and later generations of Electronic cigarettes and MODs. E-Liquid is devices agnostic, while "Electronic Cigarette Aerosol" is not.
The aerosolization of E-Liquid makes the vapor constituents not changed very much. Radically different that combustion artifacts.
I think this proposal is OK, they are close enough to group to one. Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:46, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
See Merger discussion below Merge_Discussion - Sub articles Safety, Aerosol, and E-liquid AlbinoFerret 22:17, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Rate of editing to this page
Size of this page at the end of:
- Dec 10 - archiving, but only 7.3k added in the day
- Dec 9 326,291, a bit better!
- Dec 8 315,076 bytes
- Dec 7 287,879
- Dec 6 264,432
- Dec 5 246,068
- Dec 4 220,817
- Dec 3 203,227
- Dec 2 193,312
- Dec 1 188,732
- Nov 30 183,277
-The number of new sections is also accelerating, with slightly over 1 per day. We need to slow things down so people who don't want to spend a large chunk of time daily can follow the page and even contribute. Johnbod (talk) 03:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think some of the larger days were skewed by new editor postings. AlbinoFerret 14:41, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- Also skewed by my side-by-side comparison way of proposing edits, though. A lot of those postings, by byte-count, was me.—S Marshall T/C 14:54, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Contradiction tags
What is the meaning of this "contradiction" tagging, S Marshall? Is this already explained somewhere? Mystery Wolff what do you see? Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:14, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Blue Rasberry: If I look at the new subtopic immediately above this, I would say that everything he tagged as contradictory, he intends to delete. I have not done a 1 for 1 comparison though. The edits being advocated for are incredibly destructive. I am very disappointed in the slant. Mystery Wolff (talk) 22:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- There are multiple reasons why tags are added to a page. A tag is an indication that something needs to be fixed. While the fix may include removing something, that is not always the case. They simply draw attention. AlbinoFerret 23:52, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Blue Rasberry: If I look at the new subtopic immediately above this, I would say that everything he tagged as contradictory, he intends to delete. I have not done a 1 for 1 comparison though. The edits being advocated for are incredibly destructive. I am very disappointed in the slant. Mystery Wolff (talk) 22:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- I would say that it is pretty obvious that there is contradictions here. We have statements that A) e-cigs better than NRT at getting people to quit smoking B) as good as NRT at getting people to quit smoking. C) No better than a placebo at getting people to quit smoking. And finally D) Do not help people quit smoking at all. All of these cannot be true at the same time.... thus they must be representative of different views of the current evidence, which should be described in accordance to WP:WEIGHT. Instead of the way they are currently are, where no indication of quality of evidence, prevalence in the literature etc is done. --Kim D. Petersen 01:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- If you can read the current text entitled "Smoking cessation" and think it belongs in an encyclopaedia, then you should take up a different hobby. It's a product of QuackGuru's editing technique, which was: find a source, read a source, drop selected close paraphrases into the article, group them by topic, cite them carefully, and then relentlessly guard them against all change because everyone who wants to change the text is a bad-faith POV-pushing SPA. What this has led to is an article which consists of sentences that directly contradict each other, one after the other, and will leave many readers completely bewildered. The "Smoking cessation" section is not the only example, although it's probably the most egregious.—S Marshall T/C 08:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, the literature is full of contradictory claims or conclusions, especially those that seem contradictory in summary, but may be explained by different factors in the research, in ways too complicated (and controversial) to go into here. Quack's method was simply to heap up one-sentence summaries, not pointing out or attempting to explain the contradictions; this was one of the worst aspects of his style, leaving the reader completely confused. Instead we should, using sources, explain that contradictions exist, and point out some factors involved, where we can. But ultimately, as they say of Middle East politics, if you're not confused, you haven't understood things properly. I don't see justification for "I would say that everything he tagged as contradictory, he intends to delete", but certainly this should not happen. Johnbod (talk) 15:51, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree that the section is poor, but the solution is not to tag every single statement with a contradiction tag. There is a discussion going on right now, and the tags only serve to confuse readers even more—lets just continue the discussion. CFCF 💌 📧 20:38, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- Good Lord, you MEDRS people really dislike tags, don't you? First QG, then Doc James, now you, all insistently removing tags from text which is clearly defective and appropriately labelled as such.—S Marshall T/C 21:30, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- I have replaced the tags, the issues were not fixed. Tags inform any editor who looks at the page, not just those who participate on the talk page. AlbinoFerret 21:42, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sources area allowed to contradict each other. It is common in a controversial area. What we do is simply state what the different sources say. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:34, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Doc James, AlbinoFerret, CFCF, S Marshall, and Mystery Wolff: I've been watching this page, and i've now seen 4 reverts over this subject guys. Sort it out, or i'll protect the page and or issue blocks. 3RR does not need to be broken for a block. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 09:48, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- @DeltaQuad:The "heads up" with a ping is appreciated. I reverted the introduction these 10+ tags because it suggests to the reader that nothing is known, or that everything is controverted, and that was not the case. When that failed, I quickly gave up on reverting their introduction without 3RR. I am remain concerned about the likelihood of mass changes being put in, as described in the section above on smoking cessation. There is no consensus, and the edits are being put in for a targeted audience I do not believe an encyclopedic entry is supposed to cater to, or target audiences, as that is counter to the term "encyclopedic", Also the article has since been moved on from the old snapshot. Any direction on this would be welcome. I am about to post in that subsection. Thanks Mystery Wolff (talk) 09:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- I actually make it 5. I put the tags in on 8 December. MysteryWolff removed them without fixing the issue (1), and I reverted him to put them back in (2). CFCF removed them on 12 December (3), but I think he would have been unaware of the previous reverts when he did so because they were a way down the page history. I hear what you say but this should not trigger CFCF's 1RR restrictions. The rapidity of improvements to the page since QuackGuru's topic ban should not make it impossible for CFCF to edit without checking hundreds of other edits line by line. CFCF has made genuine attempts to engage with my effort to resolve the contradictions above. AlbinoFerret put them back in (4) and then Doc James removed them again (5). I suggest that they stay out now; let's let the wookie win. :)—S Marshall T/C 11:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- DeltaQuad This is another issue that may not have been brought up or discussed at arbcom. The page still has lots of issues. But tags are removed by medproject editors without the problems being solved, and have been in the past (NPOV tag). Giving answers like "*Sources area allowed to contradict each other." well yes, but not without context that explains why. As I explained in my revert, tags are to inform editors who may look at this page. Removing them without fixing the issue that they were placed to point out is counterproductive. AlbinoFerret 13:03, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- We often simply present the conclusions of sources that disagree with each other. I have added a summary "Reviews for electronic cigarettes as a smoking cessation have come to different conclusions." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:44, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think simply presenting conclusions is one of the many problems with this page. The page is for the general reader. IMHO just tossing in conclusions one after another is something that will not improve readability or help them understand what they are reading. Its writing like a journal article not an encyclopedia article. AlbinoFerret 14:08, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- Doc James, I do wish you'd participated in the discussion immediately above this one instead of unilaterally adding that content.—S Marshall T/C 14:52, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- Pointing out that there is a contradiction between sources is very important and a step in the right direction. Otherwise the reader is constatly asking "Is it me, or does that not make sense?". Johnbod (talk) 14:57, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think simply presenting conclusions is one of the many problems with this page. The page is for the general reader. IMHO just tossing in conclusions one after another is something that will not improve readability or help them understand what they are reading. Its writing like a journal article not an encyclopedia article. AlbinoFerret 14:08, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- We often simply present the conclusions of sources that disagree with each other. I have added a summary "Reviews for electronic cigarettes as a smoking cessation have come to different conclusions." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:44, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
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