Talk:People v. Turner

Photo

Is it conformant with wikipedia fair use policy to include his photo, copyright Stanford, which has been widely published by news organizations?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cryptobiotik (talk • contribs) 21:04, 4 June 2016‎

It'd have to meet all ten criteria of WP:NFCCP, which seems likely to fall at the first ("no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose"). --McGeddon (talk) 20:15, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

His mugshot is released now by the police http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/06/06/3785310/brock-turner-mug-shot/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.175.223.123 (talk) 23:26, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

The photo used for this article is not the mug shot, but a photo taken at his sentencing trial. See update at bootom of http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/06/06/3785310/brock-turner-mug-shot/ 5.173.186.228 (talk) 09:22, 7 June 2016 (UTC) Jan

I've requested to change the image to be the actual mugshot, per standards set by similar articles with mugshots, and to match the text. –Rep354676 (talk) 09:56, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

No it isn't. But wikipedia has an _agenda_. Notice that they will not print mugshots of people actually convicted of rape. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom). Wikipedia has a specific agenda: White Men who go to Stanford are _all_ evil. Anything that promotes that agenda (like exposing the admittedly evil Brock Turner) is fair game. Anything that doesn't is off-limits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.131.45.219 (talk) 01:13, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

That is a really messed up claim to make.

This page shouldn't be deleted

If you would like to comment on whether this article should be deleted, please do so on the [Articles for Deletion: Brock Turner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Brock_Turner) page. Doing so will make your voice heard. Commenting here may mean that your comments will be ignored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strand (talk • contribs) 20:39, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

For a number of reasons:

1. 1. The actions of Brock Turner gained national and international media attention.
2. 2. The case is significant in that there is controversy over the sentencing.
3. 3. Brock Turner is a recognised athlete (reference 3), not some nobody.
4. 4. There is no factually inaccurate or disputed information on the page.
5. 5. All information presented in the page is done so in an unbiased manner.

I think the main issue with this page is that it doesn't have a complete biography, its a page that could be improved upon but not one that should be deleted.

Ajusticecause (talk) 15:44, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

move page to an article about the crime and trial

Pretty much that, I agree that the page doesn't read like a biography. May I suggest redirecting the page to a page titled something like "Sexual Assault on Emily Doe by Brock Turner" which itself would have a small biographical section?

Rue-chan (talk) 23:33, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

"convicted rapist"?

The article describes Turner as a "convicted rapist". Is this description accurate, given that his conviction is for sexual assault with intent to rape? A person convicted of attempted murder would not be accurately described as a convicted murderer. 2A02:C7D:8B5:E700:E1E0:19D6:BE1C:779F (talk) 15:05, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Not a bad point. A highly legalistic one, unfortunately. In several sources[1][2], it's pointed out that the prosecution dropped the charges of rape, presumably because it would have been too easy to introduce reasonable doubt. It's not clear that the charges would have been dropped in some other jurisdictions, however, since state laws vary on the definition of rape. As for characterizing a person as a "rapist" even if his actions met anyone's criteria for rape, the ice might be a little thin here too -- it's common for other victims to come forward when one victim does. No other woman has come forward. In any case, "convicted sex offender" would be more accurate. Yakushima (talk) 15:54, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

I totally agre with Yakushima, the terms "convicted sex offender" or "convicted sexual abuser" would be more accurate and precise. — Holothurion (talk) 18:49, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

For its Uniform Crime Reports, the FBI defines rape as “penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” [3] California has separate statutes for sexual penetration under different circumstances, and "Most states choose to label the crime of rape as sexual assault."[4]. So, yes, "convicted rapist" is the most succinct, yet still precise way of identifying him.--Carwil (talk) 18:55, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! Finally someone else gets it. Starting the article out with that immaculate statement only underscores my point that the purpose of this listing is to publicly shame Mt.Turner. This is is not why one uses an encyclopedia and if the editors are so upset about the sentence perhaps they should refrain from editorializing. Witschi1 (talk) 18:57, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

I changed the language to reflect his conviction of three felony counts of sexual assault.--tassieg (talk) 21:24, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

This person is convicted of sexual assault, not rape. So, convicted rapist is simply factually wrong. His description at the start is misleading regarding what his criminal conviction is, and if there is to be a distinction between rape and sexual assault then referring to this person as a rapist leads to removal of the distinction. That there should be no distinction may be the view of many, but the law as it currently stands does make the distinction for good or bad reasons. Carwil above made reference to "Most states choose to label the crime of rape as sexual assault." as evidence that since the criminal was convicted of sexual assault he is thus by definition a rapist. Firstly it says most states, not California, secondly proving that by legal definition all rapes are sexual assaults does not say that by legal definition all sexual assaults are rapes. Japanscot (talk) 23:39, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

I provided the definition used by the United States' national law enforcement body, the FRI, which coordinates among multiple jurisdictions with different wordings. The FBI is quite clear that sexual penetration with an object (literally word for word the charge Turner was convicted of) is rape. In next year's Uniform Criminal Report, his conviction will be counted as a rape conviction. The first sentence should provide a clear, concise summary and "convicted rapist" is completely accurate and also concise. --Carwil (talk) 01:19, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

If an authoritative body specifically lists him under people with a rape conviction then the description makes sense. There is still the issue that the convicting agency, california court, convicted him of three sexual assaults. But "rapist convicted in 2016 of three counts of sexual assault in california" might be too long, but it might perhaps draw attention to california describing differently what other authorities describe as rape. Japanscot (talk) 01:49, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

The FBI definition for reporting purposes (statistical, but not necessarily judicial) is indeed "penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." However, two of the three charges on which Turner was convicted state that the condition of criminality is that the perpetrator could not have reasonably concluded that the victim was capable of informed consent at the time of the act itself -- not at the time of consent, if there was any. Was there any? We don't know. This was a blackout drinking episode during which the victim could not remember events well before the actual assault. The victim might have given some kind of confused consent to some kind of penetration, but then turned semi-conscious and then passed out. (After all, BAC levels can continue to rise rapidly after someone has stopped drinking.) Whether Turner intended it (rather unlikely) or not, the introduction of pine needles into the victim's vagina as the "foreign object" is not likely to have been something she'd consent to even if stone cold sober. And the penetrations would still have been a crime if the still-conscious person had proceeded on the basis of previous consent, presumably because the victim fell into in a state of mind in which she would have been unable to retract consent, as would be her right.

So, we've got several problems here:

(1) Is the FBI definition for REPORTING purposes the same as what federal law says the actual CRIME is?

(2) Do the charges under California law actually fall under the FBI definition for reporting purposes?

(3) If the FBI definition for reporting purposes is not the federal crime charge, can Turner truly be said to be a "convicted" rapist in federal terms? To which I might add:

(4) If we supply text saying that two of the charges (those of sexual penetration) fit the FBI reporting-purposes definition, isn't that WP:SYNTH unless we have RS that also says so? (Note: I am not a lawyer.)

Under WP:BLP, we're empowered (actually, required) to immediately remove controversial statements that might be defamatory. I'll reword the initial sentence(s) in accordance with that policy, as I understand it. Yakushima (talk) 02:50, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I've since made changes to reflect these ambiguities, uneasily, with "would be considered rape" flagged with "according to whom". I'm not sure this gets me out of WP:BLP violation, but it's the best I can think of right now. The article might eventually be redirected to an article about the case, so I count these apparent hair-splitting distinctions in the lede as an improvement. Yakushima (talk) 03:05, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

At the federal level as well[5], it does appear that Brock Turner would have been convicted on federal charges of sexual assault rather than rape, unless his "assault with intent to commit rape" included "unlawful force." Did it? Lying on top of someone in a standard sexual position and thrusting your hips (which is all that was witnessed) is not ipso facto unlawful force. One could argue that if she was unconscious and therefore incapable of resisting, no force was being applied anyway, thus it couldn't have been unlawful force even if it was unlawful activity. Could it still have been unlawful activity, even criminal activity? I believe so. Remember, strictly speaking, even just touching a person without permission can, in some circumstances, be considered criminal, and part of perpetrating assault and battery. (I'm starting to understand why the jury deliberated for two days over a case that's being characterized as open-and-shut.) I think the best we can do here is note that he's widely considered a rapist, while also noting the finer legal distinctions about the official statistical categorization of sex crimes by the FBI versus the actual conviction under California law, which was obtained after the formal charges of rape were dropped. Yakushima (talk) 05:55, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

There are scores if not hundreds of RS articles referring to this as a "rape" case and the conviction as a "rape" conviction. WP:SYNTH only applies of Wikipedia editors make determinations rather than Reliable Sources.--Carwil (talk) 12:00, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm aware of the scores (might be hundreds, by now) of articles calling this a rape case. And I've added your point about the FBI's statistical categorization, which very probably applies. The problem is with calling a living person a "convicted rapist" on Wikipedia when in fact, by due process of law, they haven't been convicted on an actual charge or rape; when in fact, the two charges of rape were actually dropped by the prosecution at the preliminary hearing, leaving these sexual assault charges. Saying "convicted rapist" could be a WP:BLP violation in this case. I don't know. I'm trying to stay on the safe side, while not violating common sense. In the process, I'm probably breaking some rules, but at least I'm breaking less serious rules -- like accusing someone of a crime without a jury verdict to support it. You're free to attempt your own edits, in as much conformance with policy and guidelines as possible, under WP:BLP. Yakushima (talk) 12:22, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Yakushima, your stated concern above was However, two of the three charges on which Turner was convicted state that the condition of criminality is that the perpetrator could not have reasonably concluded that the victim was capable of informed consent at the time of the act itself -- not at the time of consent, if there was any. Was there any? We don't know.

Well, we do know this: Brock Turner was convicted of "Sexual Penetration of an Unconscious Person" which means the jury concluded "The defendant knew that the other person was unable to resist because (he/she) was unconscious of the nature of the act."[6] (It should be obvious, but just to spell it out, someone who consents to a sexual act while awake does not therefore consent to that sexual act continuing if they pass out.) And Brock Turner was convicted of "Sexual Penetration of an Intoxicated Person" which means the jury concluded "The defendant knew or reasonably should have known that the effect of that substance prevented the other person from resisting the act."[7] That is what these convictions legally mean.

Further, the latter statute also states, "A person is prevented from resisting if he or she is so intoxicated that he or she cannot give legal consent. In order to give legal consent, a person must be able to exercise reasonable judgment. In other words, the person must be able to understand and weigh the physical nature of the act, its moral character, and probable consequences. Legal consent is consent given freely and voluntarily by someone who knows the nature of the act involved."

Really, it's not up to us to parse and re-parse "consent" or to parse and reparse "rapist." RS have done that for us. But getting into the details only reinforces the common sense view taken by many, many RS.--Carwil (talk) 13:22, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

The current wording of "convicted sexual assailant" is clumsy. Shouldn't it be "convicted sex offender" as suggested above? Truhvi (talk) 22:03, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Religion = "Christian"

Nothing in the subject's social media, family statements or news articles indicate any identified religion for Brock Turner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.41.89.234 (talk) 05:41, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 7 June 2016

Brock Turner → Brock Turner sentencing controversy – This is more in line with the naming of other articles on crimes and also reflects the fact that the notoriety of the case is not due to Turner himself but to the sentence and the two letters informing it. McPhail (talk) 07:22, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

• Support as nominator. McPhail (talk) 07:22, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support as editor and deletion-discussion participant. Although the topic was somewhat notable as a criminal case, it has obviously become much more notable in the wake of the sentence. Yakushima (talk) 07:29, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 12:54, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think it's poor style to use the word "controversy". I believe it is overused on Wikipedia. I prefer Sentencing of Brock Turner for sexual assault. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:02, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
• Stop moving this page until move discussion is closed. There's an active discussion on possible alternative names at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brock Turner. We need to centralize the discussion and come to consensus before choosing a name. User:Biosthmors and User:Somedifferentstuff are both jumping process by moving the page. Wait until the discussion is closed..--Carwil (talk) 13:12, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree. Some of the deletion discussion now makes no sense because it's framed in WP:BLP terms. WP:BLP still applies to what's said about Brock Turner (and others), but the issue is about notability of the person, whether a BLP is merited, and that should conclude first. Yakushima (talk) 13:22, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I won't move it again anytime soon, but I prefer being wp:bold and actually making improvements over herding cats. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:55, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose — Extensive coverage of the crime from distant sources (see this Google News search for coverage prior to May 1, 2016) indicates that the sexual assault met WP:GNG long before the sentencing, although WP:BLP issuses attached until we had a conviction. There was regional, national, and international coverage of Turner's arrest, plea, conviction, as well as the crime, campus climate, intervening bystanders, etc. It's notoriety increased at sentencing, but the crime is notable.
  I suggest Sexual assault by Brock Turner or Brock Turner sexual assault (on the model of Ariel Castro kidnappings), or January 2015 Stanford rape.--Carwil (talk) 14:08, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I like the name Sexual assault by Brock Turner, and I would support that title. Brock Turner sexual assault not so much. It seems unclear without a preposition. I suppose one could also go the long route with Sexual assault by Brock Turner and its sentencing, etc. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:18, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
    • Withdrawing Brock Turner sexual assault--Carwil (talk) 14:49, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Ping: User:GeneralizationsAreBad User:Bus stop User:Jami430--Carwil (talk) 17:42, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

• A case could be made for naming the article after the case: California v. Brock Allen Turner; in my opinion.--John Cline (talk) 21:43, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support - I support any title other than "Brock Turner", until it is proven that he is notable. "California v. Brock Turner" would suffice. --Jax 0677 (talk) 22:18, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2016

Change File:Brock Turner.jpeg to File:Brock Turner.jpeg. The caption reads "Mug shot of Brock Allen Turner after being booked for sexual assault." The new, proposed photo is the correct mugshot taken after being booked, not the re-done picture taken days after. Changing the photo displayed is in keeping with similar policies on other articles as well as keeping the caption true and accurate. Rep354676 (talk) 09:53, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Not done for now: Both files are the same... Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:28, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Original research

We need a secondary source, not a wp:primary one, for the wp:original research I just excised out of the article:

Turner was convicted under California state law on the three assault charges, two of which would be considered rape under U.S. federal crime reporting guidelines."FBI Rape - Uniform Crime Reports". www.fbi.gov. Federal Bureau of Investigation. 2013. Retrieved 2016-06-07. As the FBI defines rape for reporting purposes, it is "penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.

Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:00, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, so be it I added that in response to another editor's citation of it. But I also added the tag. If we can agree that the term "convicted rapist" is problematic (since he wasn't literally convicted of rape) and can be avoided, I don't see an issue with removing this passage on WP:OR grounds. I never liked it anyway. Yakushima (talk) 13:18, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

We can't agree that. This circumlocution is an unnecessary replacement for the clear and factual "convicted rapist." Moreover, longwinded explanations of terminology should never be in the opening. Per MOS:INTRO "Editors should avoid … over-specific descriptions, since greater detail is saved for the body of the article."

We're witnessing a process in which the same editor (1) demands excessive qualifying text, then (2) supports deletion of the whole segment because said text is OR. My good faith is fraying.--Carwil (talk) 13:31, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I didn't "demand" excessive qualifying text. I added some text, and tagged it with where I thought it might veer into WP:SYNTH or WP:OR. Nobody has verified against RS that Brock Turner would have been convicted of rape rather than sexual assault at the federal level, and the FBI's categorization of his crime for statistical reporting purposes does not define federal law, which instead uses a definition that looks more like California law. I would support restoring the FBI reporting definition, and characterizing the crime as rape on that basis, if someone could find RS from some legal authority establishing what's required here: that under federal law, Brock Turner would have been convicted of rape. So far, however, you haven't come up with that RS, despite opportunity. Nobody else has either.

There is no requirement that an article be perfect at every stage, and I often focus on adding facts at the expense of style when important facts are missing. Several were. And one of them is the overriding fact for this discussion: Turner was not convicted of rape. He was convicted of sexual assault, a distinction made in roughly equivalent ways in both the California and in federal codes. The prosecutor arguing "Emily Doe's" charges actually dropped the formal rape charges. Stating in the biography of a living person (or in any article) that a person has been convicted of a crime different (and possibly worse) than the one he was actually convicted of -- that's a WP:BLP violation if there ever was one. And a million linkbait headlines getting it wrong doesn't make it right. Yakushima (talk) 14:27, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Per the link from the FBI cited above:

• “This new, more inclusive definition [of rape] will provide us with a more accurate understanding of the scope and volume of these crimes,” said Attorney General Eric Holder. Proponents of the new definition and of the omission of the term “forcible” say that the changes broaden the scope of the previously narrow definitions by capturing (1) data without regard to gender, (2) the penetration of any bodily orifice, penetration by any object or body part, and (3) offenses in which physical force is not involved. Now, for example, instances in which offenders use drugs or alcohol or incidents in which offenders sodomize victims of the same gender will be counted as rape for statistical purposes.
• "According to David Cuthbertson, former FBI Assistant Director of the CJIS Division, “As we implement this change, the FBI is confident that the number of victims of this heinous crime will be more accurately reflected in national crime statistics.”"
• "the revised definition, unlike the legacy definition, includes offenses of rape, sodomy, sexual assaults with objects, and offenses in which males were the victims"

--Carwil (talk) 14:46, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

What that does not constitute, unfortunately, is RS stating explicitly that Brock Turner would have been convicted of rape in federal court, if such a court had jurisdiction in this case. It is a change of wording about how crimes will be reported, made by some unelected officials, not by legislators or judges. I happen to think it's a laudable change of wording, but that's neither here nor there for this discussion. And I am not alone in preferring that Wikipedia be circumspect for the sake of avoiding charges of defamation of a living person. Note that, as I write this, the Washington Post does not call Brock Turner a convicted rapist, nor does it say he was convicted of rape. [8]. Note also that the New York Times does not call him a rapist, and like the Washington Post, says that he was convicted of sexual assault.[9]. Even The Guardian, which has been the source of key documents in the controversy, seems to have employed term "rapist" only under the byline of an opinion columnist, rather than in straight news reporting.[10] None of these sources show any tendency to downplay the crime. They do, however, seem to feel constrained to report the legal outcome only in strictly factual terms. And those terms are pretty clear. There was a judicial event: a conviction. On charges: three of them in the category of sexual assault, none of them defined as rape under any relevant jurisdiction, state or federal. Wikipedia is held to an even higher standard than these publications, since it cannot publish opinion pieces as encyclopedia articles. Yakushima (talk) 15:25, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

First, we aren't engaged in convicting but in describing Brock Turner, and his criminal action, which has been repeatedly described as "rape" and him as a "rapist." So, if the FBI is an authority on defining crimes, their reporting definition is fine.

Second, yes RS have been using "rape" and "rapist" in their news sections. Witness LA Times: "the rape victim of a former Stanford University swimmer", NBC News , NY Daily News: "after he was found guilty of raping an intoxicated and unconscious woman", CBS News, etc. --Carwil (talk) 17:15, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

While the sources you link to do use the word "rape" in their headlines, the article text more accurately says his conviction is for "sexual assault" or "assault with intent to commit rape." I don't know if this is considered to be dubious journalistic practice or standard practice to shorten headlines, but it is clear that "sexual assault" is what he was convicted of, and we should simply say that. Fnordware (talk) 17:38, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I inserted two in-text quotes above, showing it's not just headlines. See also [Mic]: "Brock Turner, the former Stanford University swimmer and convicted rapist."--Carwil (talk) 17:49, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

"Swimmer"

Is it really at all in good taste for 1/3 of the lead to emphasize what a good swimmer he was? He's not famous for being a swimmer, he's famous for violating a girl, and it's not representative of the body of the article in any way.

It really comes off as completely inappropriate whitewashing, of the kind specifically decried by the victim in her public statement. For shame, wikipedia.204.11.142.106 (talk) 22:37, 7 June 2016 (UTC)