Talk:Kosovo

Very unnecessary statement in the introduction

Hello all. I am of the opinion that the following statement "The country is poor by European standards with high unemployment, still not having fully recovered from the past conflict" in the Introduction is highly subjective, and very unnecessary. Moldova, for example, has a smaller GDP per capita yet no such statement can be found on the page about Moldova. IMF clasiffies Kosovo as a "lower middle income country", so I suggest we use that or similar terminology ("developing country" works as well). Thoughts? Thanks. --alchaemia (talk) 17:30, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Provide Reliable Sources for your views, and I'm sure editors will go along splendidly. 98.67.191.44 (talk) 04:00, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Reliable sources are already provided for these facts in the Economy section, and no other country has such a strong and direct statement in the Introduction, including much poorer Moldova. --alchaemia (talk) 21:20, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Strong sentence

I might lack of neutrality, but I must confess that seen the quite large recognition of Kosovo by the international community, the wording "Kosovo is a disputed territory and partially recognised state" is inappropriate. if we were to follow this logic the words "disputed territory" should be added also to Israel, Taiwan, Falkland Islands... Also it is somehow illogic that in this article the status of Kosovo is considered on the 26th July 2016 as more contentious than three years ago, even if in the meantime around 20 additional countries have recognized it. Silvio1973 (talk) 11:21, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, it is disputed, and it is partially recognized. What exactly is the problem with wording? Vanjagenije (talk) 14:18, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Sure it is disputed and partially recognized. Exactly as the other countries I listed above. I am just wondering why only Kosovo deserves to be characterized such as. And again, does it makes any sense that the wording classifies today the status of the country as even more disputed than 3 years ago, if we account that more countries have recognized it insofar? Silvio1973 (talk) 14:34, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Even the most ardent Serb nationalist knows, deep down, that as long as NATO stands (which is probably for at least the next century), Kosovo is an independent state, backed up by the invincible military might of NATO. Given time, this rubbish about it being 'disputed' will become as quaint as it has become for Israel, Taiwan, etc. Don't let the present lede spoil your day. 98.67.191.44 (talk) 03:57, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

So, by your logic IP98, you recognise you know "deep down" that Kosovo will be an inviable country for at least next century, needing NATO troops and being sort of UN protectorate? Anyway, your comment has no value because any serious encyclopedia applies WP:CRYSTAL. Cheers, FkpCascais (talk) 05:09, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the "might of NATO" (which has singularly cowered in fear over Donbass and Georgia's breakaway provinces - likewise, we don't see NATO in Tibet where China has been accused of numerous grave atrocities over the past decades); perhaps the vulnerability of Serbia as a lone player in world affairs in the face of the concerted western bully may influence how and why Kosovo will never reintegrate into it. As for the remainder of the IP's assertion, South Ossetia enjoys the same privileges and independence from any other state that Kosovo does, as do others. The "rubbish" about being disputed will end either when Kosovo reverses its position, or when Serbia recognises it. Until one of these milestones occurs, the community can wait - let's hope the two don't happen simultaneously. With regards Taiwan and Israel, there is zero comparison between Kosovo and the two listed; the first claims to be the true Chinese state (making the other China equally disputed) whilst the second merely occupies territory claimed by another country - most of the land to constitute Israel is not disputed by anybody. This article is about a territory that declared independence from a country which does not recognise that independence and is otherwise powerless to control the land in question. The Falklands is not a breakaway state, it has been the subject of dispute by two countries. Kosovo's approximates are the likes of Somaliland and Abkhazia. --OJ (talk) 08:23, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, yes "bully". If one was to view it through that context then the region has had much in terms of bullies such as Russia in the 19th century who continuously encouraged some peoples of the Ottoman state to destabilize it instead of seeking to integrate themselves and be part of the process of reform. Russia repeatedly contested and violated Ottoman sovereignty that resulted in many millions of Muslims suffering as fatalities and being refugees. As for contemporary Albanian Kosovars, they found their opportunity to seek what they want and NATO/USA was that conduit, just as many other states in the region have done in the past through Russia of course. Its just how the region is. Each state in the region has their patron. It just depends whose patron is stronger at a moment in time for a particular local people to achieve their aims (i.e: independence). Today its the USA and for Balkan Muslims its also Turkey (or its return in the region) too. For the others of course its Russia. Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:10, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

I fear, Resnjari, you are grossly misled. First of all, I am aware of the Russo-Ottoman issues of the previous centuries and that many nations owe a debt of gratitude to Russia for extricating themselves from Ottoman rule. I accept totally that Albanians are not one of those nations. I do not know whether you are of Albanian origin (I haven't checked anything you have published) but as a subject of the former Yugoslavia who has lived in Britian for 16 years now, I will make one observation. Firstly, this is without prejudice. Where I live (North Somerset), the only ex-Yugoslavs I know are Kosovo Albanian. Together with those Kosovo Albanians and persons from Albania-proper, I have very good personal relations, and never find myself in debate with them and this despite all of us frequently discussing contemporary world affairs. But I say one thing to every one of them: don't be under any misapprehension that the western bully (I know what I mean) is actually your friend. It isn't. The west will help anyone out - but on their terms only. In 1912, an assembly representing the Albanian nation declared an independent principality which encompassed four Kosovo vilayets covering all lands to which Albanians are native. Three out of the four Balkan League allies (Kingdoms of Serbia, Montenegro and Greece) had other plans for those lands and for the integration of the locals. The failure by the Balkan League and the Albanian representatives to familiarise one another with each other's ideas meant that there was bloody fighting in the 1912-13 period between the Balkan League states who had entered the entire region and had hoped to annex it - and the Albanians who had taken control of Vlora. When in 1913 the Treaty of London was signed, it made way for an independent Albania - but why do you think this Albania was not the country its creators had wanted? Why were regions given to Greece and Serbia? Likewise, why do you think Albania was allowed to exist in the first place when it hadn't done in the previous centuries of Ottoman rule? I can assure you that it is not because of the west's "love for mankind". Turks nearly ended up stateless after World War I due to a western-sponsored treaty which would have seen Britain, France, Italy and others enjoy sovereignty from their chunks of Anatolia. The point is that those countries have always interfered in southeastern Europe, and have done everything to stop any one country becoming too big - and the best way for this has been to promote and maintain fantasies of the local people being so ideologically different to one another so as to hate each other while the west plays the great "peacekeeper". Bulgaria failed to become the large state it wanted to be in 1878, and the very emergence of a Macedonian national identity was itself boosted by funds and help from westwards. Think about it, with 19th century nationalism on the rise, and the confusion in this region whether the Slavs are Serb or Bulgarian, what better than to have a "third branch" who will go one step further and provoke the Greeks with their name and occasional claim of being non-Slavic. To look at the map of the Balkans, you can see the whole place has been divided and now ruled, with each puppet state moving with blinkers towards NATO and the EU, and all only too happy to surrender their foreign policies and their sovereignty to the centralised monster. And five minutes ago we were being told by those outsiders, "your people are too different to be part of the same state". There was never a movement for an independent Kosovo before the region became part of Yugoslavia/Serbia. The very flag with a blue background and yellow stars is merely a self-sacrificing gift to Kosovo's real architects: the west. "Here we are, take us, we are yours". And the outline of the flag? Well, Cyprus has its map in its flag but Cyprus is an island. Is Kosovo an island? No. The map was put there to stop anyone from inside dreaming up hopes that Kosovo may one day get bigger - such as in a southerly direction where Albania is. Had Kosovo been part of Albania after World War II, it is ludicrous to suggest it may have done day sought independence. So the independent narrative of this region will for ever preach a "damsel in distress" fairy story. This is not the natural way nations and countries are formed. I'd say today's leaders in the Balkans are bigger than puppets, they are actual agents that serve the neoconservative mercenaries. Please note, I am not a Serb, in 1993-1995 I fought against Bosnian Serbs (I'm from Herzegovina), and I am not an apologist for this nation's actions of the 1990s. But I am not a conditioned puppet either to entertain delusions that "west is the only way forward". If I were a Kosovo Albanian, sure I'd support independence, but only to be with my brethren as part of Albania, I would have no reason and there is no reason for Kosovo to be separate, other that to excite westerners who can gloat, "haha, look, southeastern Europe is carved into a hundred pieces". Why do they want that? Every neo-con knows that by the 1980s, Yugoslavia (which nearly came to include Albania before 1948) was self-sufficient and was managing its own GDP with a growing economy, and all outside of western influence. If only the peoples of southeastern Europe could work together again and rid themselves of the dirt that is the institutions of the west, then Angela Merkel knows that Germany would play second fiddle to this part of the world, and this has a knock-on effect and frightens everybody in western politics. The name of "Yugoslavia" is irrelevant. I'm happy enough to call the whole region "Albania", but the Clintons, Trumps and Bushes don't want that, nor do the Junckers or Donald Tusks (shame on the latter, he is Polish). --OJ (talk) 08:41, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I am not mislead. I am a realist and a pragmatist and am very well read on the history of the region (and i speak and understand Serbo-Croatian and can read it in both alphabets, Macedonian too and some Greek). Orthodox peoples in the Balkans had Russia (and almost most still do in some sense) as their patron who gave them independence, influence in the region etc. That independence was at a cost though and that price was the ethnic cleansing and often many massacres of Balkan Muslims of various ethno-linguistic backgrounds over the course of the 19th century and early 20th. There was no "misunderstandings". Each wanted their dreams to come true and did whatever it took. Of course having the region divided into small states is not an ideal solution, but everyone wanted their own space and many others did not recognise the other (even to exist at times even now). The first era of this Balkanisation was with the partition of the Ottoman state. Some local peoples sought Balkanized segregation instead of reform and integration within the Ottoman state. Had reforms gone through (it was scuttled time and again due to wars often with Russia) the potential to have been transformed into some kind of EU like state, a confederation etc. Yet today Albanians have been told by these local peoples who have established these subsequent states in the Balkans that they should re-integrate into them, especially in lieu of what has happened recently with little to no guarantees of their safety, yet alone assurances about equality and democratic representation. As i said before, Orthodox peoples did not want Ottoman integration due to their perceptions that even through reform the Ottoman state would be dominated by Muslims. As such in the same way one cannot expect that contemporary Balkan Muslim peoples in areas where they have managed to remain against the odds and are the majority to want to be part of these post-Ottoman states that have a somewhat imperial structure to it as was Yugoslavia, a state for Slavic peoples only. Pax Ottomanica or Pax Yugoslavica, in the end neither worked. All peoples have chosen their own path. Kosovo has chosen its path and its independence. There is little appetite also for Greater Albania in Kosovo, contrary to what the rhetoric is often touted about. Both Albania and Kosovo know they are Albanian majority states with a common language, culture, and so on that want to become integrated separately into the EU and Euro-Atlantic structures. As for my self i am of Albanian (Tosk) heritage from Macedonia. Resnjari (talk) 10:35, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, a lot of talk but no-one repied to my query. Why, opposely to Taiwan and Israel, Kosovo is described here as "disputed territory and partially recognised state"? And please stop comparing Abkhazia to Kosovo. The two situations are really very different. Abkhazia was not recognized by 100+ UN members. Silvio1973 (talk) 13:06, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Though i am going to sound cynical here, the difference is editors who edit Taiwan and Israel related articles are many and therefore have numbers to block such references as "disputed territory and partially recognised state" in their articles. Best.Resnjari (talk) 05:45, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

@Silvio1973: Sorry about the long off-topic piece above (no point us having views if we cannot impart them from time to time). Your question is why is Kosovo a disputed territory and part-recognised state when Taiwan and Israel are not? Here is why:

1. Israel's control of Tel-Aviv is not disputed. Israel's control of Golan Heights is disupted. Thus Israel per se is not a disputed territory.
2. Since no country albeit in fruition or in exile lays claim to Tel-Aviv, this means (related to first point) that most of Israel's territory is uncontested by any other territory. The non-recognition by some states here implies a refusal to establish diplomatic relations rather than publishing a map where the lands are marked as belonging to another country. Kosovo's territory is recognised by all UN members states, but the 60-40 split (as things stand) concerns who has sovereign responsibility.
3. Taiwan is an awkward case. It has never declared itself independent, and the reason we say Taiwan so unsparingly is because the article lies there, the article which in my eyes should be Republic of China. Collectively, Republic of China and the People's Republic of China control separate parts of one country called China. China in turn is recognised by every country, but again, there is a split over whose governance is recognised for the entire region. As such, there is bilateral dispute over who is the real authority, no actual territorial dispute. This is why Taiwan fits neither moniker. --OJ (talk) 09:06, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

A point of clarification: Israel is mainly recognised by Western countries. The majority of Muslim countries do not recognise Israel. See article: International recognition of Israel.Resnjari (talk) 10:35, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I know who does and doesn't recognise Israel. Here it is neither the number nor the locations and backgrounds of the states that matter. My point is that there is a difference between non-recognition in the sense of refusing to establish bilateral relations, and non-recognition because you recognise someone else's sovereignty. Thanks for the earlier post. Yes you are well versed it seems, and as you are from Macedonia, you and I could even speak in Macedonian since I lived there for some time. My Albanian is limited because in Bitola (Manastiri) where I was a volleyball coach, there were few Albanians. I'd like to point out one or two observations on your other post, and in particular how the rhetoric you use comes straight out of the Western Imperialist Manual (my term being employed here!!), but it is Saturday evening and my wife wants me to take her somewhere! So it will have to be tomorrow (Sunday). Regards Resnjari. Kënaqësia ime! --OJ (talk) 15:56, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

As for Israel the main difference is that its recognition was attained early when most of the world was still under colonial subjection and the UN members mainly came from the West (like i said most of the Muslim world still does not recognize it). When the vote for partition went ahead, who knows whether African and Asian states if independant would have voted for it. Israel's recognition was a fait accompli by the time most of the world rid itself of colonialism (the old school type of extract, resource exploitation etc). In the end its Israel's UN recognition is what makes it different from Kosovo and gives it worldwide legitimacy. Kosovo lacks this and will so for much into the future and thus earning labels such as "disputed territory" etc. Moreover my main point is that competing imperialisms and nationalisms is what got the Balkans screwed up in the first place. What has happened has happened. Anyway the region for some decades can get a measure of semblance only on economic grounds due to all that has happened. As for Bitola, my dad originates from one of the villages on the Greek-Maceodnian border, my mum's village is next to the town Resen on the other side of the Pelister mountains. My grandparents came out to Australia in the 1970s. Regards Oranges Juicy. Fala i dobar pat za nojkta.Resnjari (talk) 16:47, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

In Israel's case, it is the "part recognised" label which matters more. Its UN status is down to enough countries recognising of course, but other than the occupied territories it has annexed, Israel on the whole isn't a disputed land. Haifa for instance is not claimed by any other country. For the off-topic matter, please feel free to continue at my talk page where the "forum" atmosphere is slightly more relaxed!!!!! --OJ (talk) 10:42, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

@OJ, thank you for the time taken to reply to my query. I do not contest the facts lying behind the statement "disputed territory and partially recognised state". Indeed, I actually share 90% of the content of your last two posts (and BTW you explained it very well). However, I disagree on the remaining 10%, i.e. the specific treatment currently reserved to Kosovo on WP. Take this way: what is the level of international recognition that would trigger the removal of the "partially recognized state" statement? 70% 80%? 90% Theoretically it might be claimed that even if it lacks the recognition from one single UN state the label "partially recognised stat" applies. Do you think this makes any sense? Silvio1973 (talk) 14:46, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

+1 --♦ Xarioti (talk) 21:56, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

I too don't contest that Kosovo is a "disputed territory and partially recognised state". However my point was that what separates Kosovo and Israel is the UN factor. The UN in a post-1945 environment is seen as the ultimate marker of legitimacy in relation to sovereignty and its recognition. Israel is still a disputed territory for much of the Muslim world. However legitimacy of state sovereignty is recognised within institutions (like the UN) created in the West due to the power balance in the world being there and not from those countries who do not recognise Israel. Its why Kosovo more than ever wants to join Euro-Atlantic institutions so as to cement its fragile sovereignty. Anyway, this whole thread about the wording of the sentence about disputed territory has reached its natural end. Until Kosovo can get some kind of mass international recognition, UN membership or if ever a recognition from Serbia, its a waste of time for now discussing changes to that sentence. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:50, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

political opinions
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Silvio, as I stated previously, and which has gotten under the skin of so many Serb and Russian nationalists here, "Even the most ardent Serb nationalist knows, deep down, that as long as NATO stands (which is probably for at least the next century), Kosovo is an independent state, backed up by the invincible military might of NATO. Given time, this rubbish about it being 'disputed' will become as quaint as it has become for Israel, Taiwan, etc. Don't let the present lede spoil your day." They're responding arguments were less than useless, they know with NATO standing guard, there is absolutely nothing they can do about Kosovo being a de facto independent state. 68.19.3.23 (talk) 18:25, 22 August 2016 (UTC) :The responses which debunked the fallacious content of the remark you made were neither useless nor were they delivered by Serbian or Russian nationalists. In fact, the replies didn't come from a Serb or a Russian of any kind. --OJ (talk) 13:06, 24 August 2016 (UTC) NATO is mightier than Russia and China and their allies put together, so Kosovo will remain an independent state.104.169.35.251 (talk) 11:04, 16 November 2016 (UTC) ::That's all right then. NATO can try its might to reclaim Crimea for its post-2014 Ukrainian regime, then restore Georgian sovereignty over Abkhazia and South Ossetia for its other ally. Failing that, we can safely say that these two countries will remain independent just as Crimea will not be returning to Ukraine. NATO is a very powerful force when the opposition is weak and limited. I've yet to see China bombed into submission on any matter disagreeable to your NATO. NATO dominance = chimera. --OJ (talk) 12:29, 16 November 2016 (UTC) Russia will always turn tail and run when NATO confronts it, so Kosovo will remain an independent state.104.169.35.251 (talk) 04:05, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2016

The country is majority Albanian,majority names rightfully the country, therefore Harrysmatic (talk) 10:47, 27 August 2016 (UTC)the right name is Kosova,with a ,not Kosovo,with o Harrysmatic (talk) 10:47, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done: While this may be true, it seems to me that the name "Kosovo" is, by far, the most widely accepted name for the country which makes it very difficult to justify changing it. Furthermore, this is addressed on the disambiguation page as well. Topher385 (talk) 11:33, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd take the above request with a pinch of salt. --OJ (talk) 15:08, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

More importantly, this is the English wiki, and in English, the name of the independent state of Kosovo is - Kosovo, not Kosova . . . 104.169.26.177 (talk) 13:28, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Serb-nationalist train stopped before entering Kosovo -

AP wire story: http://www.wral.com/serbia-sends-train-to-kosovo-north-despite-pristina-protest/16432379/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.169.26.177 (talk) 01:31, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

And what would you like for us to do about it? 23 editor (talk) 17:51, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Non-"retired" concerned editors will use the RS accordingly to improve the article.104.169.26.177 (talk) 23:18, 18 January 2017 (UTC)