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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Zoupan (talk | contribs) at 22:00, 12 April 2018 (→Name: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Pjetër Mazreku who is not from Mazreku

Is it possible that Pjetër Mazreku, like many other people of that time, carried his last name (Mazreku) according to the name of the place he was born at?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Massarecchi wurde um 1584 in der Stadt Prizren im Kosovo geboren does not necessary mean Prizren as town, but also may mean Prizren as city, or sanjak at the time when Mazreku was born. Main territory of the Sanjak of Prizren was on Kosovo, but one part of the sanjak was composed of the territory of Albania with Mazreku village in Kukes which is town on Albanian border, next to Prizren. Maybe there is still a chance that Mazreku is from Mazreku?
Marino Bizzi, the Archbishop of Bar (Antivari), in his 1610 report stated that population of Prizren spoke Dalmatian language, although some part of the Sanjak of Prizren penetrates into Albania, which population speak its own language.(Bizzi, Marino (1610), Relatione della visita fatta da me, Marino Bizzi, Arcivescovo d'Antivari, nelle parti della Turchia, Antivari, Albania et Servia alla santità di nostro Signore papa Paolo V (Report of Marino Bizzi, Archbishop of Bar (Antivari), on his visit to Turkey, Bar, Albania and Serbia in the year 1610), In this region of Serbia they speak the Dalmatian language although the province penetrates partially into Albania, which has its own language. {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |editorn=, |laydate=, |coauthors=, |doi-inactive-date=, |editorn-last=, |editorn-link=, |nopp=, |separator=, |laysummary=, |editorn-first=, |month=, |chapterurl=, |author-separator=, and |lastauthoramp= (help); More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help); Unknown parameter |firstn= ignored (help)).--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a source which indicate that Pjeter Mazreku was not born in Prizren but in Mazrek.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:43, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Antid. that's a list of schools and their locations.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:00, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh. So there is Mazrek near Prizren, on Kosovo?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:03, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Petar Masarechi

"Petar Masarechi" GS results show that there is more frequent use of the name version "Petar Masarechi" (50) than Pjetër Mazreku. I propose to add alternative version of name. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:36, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All of them are Slavic-language publications[1].--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Practically all 36 GS Search results for Pjetër Mazreku are on Albanian language or non-English language except 3 of them. One is published in Albania on English without transliteration of name (The Albanians and their territories - Akademia e Shkencave e RPS të Shqipërisë) and one partially supports my proposal because it states The apostolic visitor, Pjeter Mazreku, or Masarecchi. Besides, since there are more numerous sources on Slavic languages about him I believe it would be good and usefull for readers to add that version of his name. Readers of this article could be willing to investigate what is written about him on Slavic languages. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:47, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
However, this is the English wikipedia i.e alternative names are based on English works.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:49, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
...significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph... These may include alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, significant names in other languages, etc. Will you please point to the policy or guideline which insist that "alternative names are based on English works"?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:41, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:MOSFOLLOW.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I red it. You made mistake and misinterpreted that policy. It does not contradict what I wrote above and it is not related to alternative names. It maybe even directly supports my proposal. There are no "reliable English-language secondary sources" used in the article. We have GSR with about 50 works on slavic languages which support Petar Masarechi alternative name, about 36 works on Albanian language which support Pjetër Mazreku and three works on English language which support Pjetër Mazreku, and one of them is published in Albania, without transliteration of the name, one of them is written by Slavic author (Gordana Filipović) and the last one is not secondary source (South East European monitor). Insisting on WP:MOSFOLLOW can result with renaming the article, and it is not my current proposal. I only proposed to add alternative name Petar Masarechi and I supported my proposal with above mentioned policy. Do you have any other argument against my proposal?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:22, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Antid. Gordana Filipovic wrote her work in English and those works of Albanian publishing houses are in English, however, none of the Petar sources is written in English i.e WP:MOSFOLLOW.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:03, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WP:MOSFOLLOW is not connected with alternative names. I presented link to the policy which is connected with "alternative names" which is not challenged by WP:MOSFOLLOW.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:06, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. There is a source on English language with Petar as his name.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:22, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's Petar Mazreku.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is right. You were wrong when you wrote: "none of the Petar sources is written in English".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:35, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You were saying that Petar Masarechi was used in English sources and you brought a source that used Petar Mazreku i.e no English-language sources use that version.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:48, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for clarification. Now we agree that we can find Petar as his first name in sources on English. Will you please add it to the article. Together with Peter. As far as I can see, Peter Masarechi is much more presented in the sources on English language than other version. Maybe the article should be renamed to Peter Masarechi?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:14, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There's only one English language source i.e it can't be added.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:18, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why? Will you please point to the policy which supports your claim that one source is not enough to add alternative name in the article but two sources are enough to name the whole article, although there is much more presented version (Peter Masarechi)?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:06, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent)It's not a significant alternative name [2].--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:48, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you claim that two sources name is significant enough to be used as name of the article, but one source name is not enough for alternative name? I see that you again ignored my question regarding naming the article and to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources - Peter Masarechi instead of two sources Pjetër Mazreku. Let me remind you that someone could see it as tendentious editing. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:02, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Antid. when an alternative name isn't mentioned by any English-language source or mentioned by just one it isn't significant enough. Btw Peter Masarechi has less English language results than Mazreku i.e Mazreku became the title and Masarechi the alternative. That being said I can't contribute anything else to this discussion, so please read the policies.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Pjetër Mazreku (2 secondary sources on English) and Peter Masarechi (4 secondary sources on English). It is worth noting that sources for Pjetër Mazreku are less numerous and sources for Peter Masarechi are more notable (John Van Antwerp Fine or Sir Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen Gibb)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:43, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are 4 Pjeter Mazreku + 2 Mazrreku variants. Even the first link doesn't show two sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I considered three of them non-secondary sources (one for Peter and two for Pjeter). My mistake, now I realized that journals are also considered as secondary sources. Still, that does not change my point: sources for Pjetër Mazreku are less numerous (4:5) and sources for Peter Masarechi are more notable (John Van Antwerp Fine or Sir Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen Gibb). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:42, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Encyclopedia of Islam is a tertiary source, Mazrreku is an alternative and English usage isn't evaluated by the notability of the authors.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But significance is. If you believe that Mazrreku is alternative name of Mazreku you are free to find sources and to add it as alternative name in the lede of the article, together with other alternative names.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:11, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's not an alternative name, but a different spelling that isn't used any longer.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:32, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You mean like gases and gasses. Good point. Two different words with same meaning and same pronunciation, but different spelling (Homophone). This is above my limited knowledge of English:
  1. I don't mind if you sum Mazreku and Mazrreku in order to get two more sources and totally 6 for Pjeter Mazreku.
  2. I do not mind the name of the article to remain the same, though I still believe that there is higher significance of Peter Masarechi sources
  3. I think it is obvious that we should add alternative name Peter Masarechi as alternative name because there are 4 significant sources for it. Do you agree or we should seed third opinion about it?
  4. Also, I still believe that you did not provide any argument for alternative use of "Petar Masarechi" version which should be added as alternative name according to the Wikipedia:Article titles policy, section which deals with Treatment of alternative names. WP:MOSFOLLOW guideline (which is below policy I provided) deals with sources, not with alternative names of the articles. Do you agree or we should seed third opinion about it? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Peter Masarechi is one of the alternative names.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, will you please answer to the last question about Petar Masarechi?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:44, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please read MOSFOLLOW and WP:ENGLISH. No English-language sources use it i.e it's not going to be added. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:00, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That was very good advice because WP:ENGLISH supports my claim It can happen that an otherwise notable topic has not yet received much attention in the English-speaking world, so that there are too few English sources to constitute an established usage. Very low Google counts can but need not be indicative of this. If this happens, follow the conventions of the language in which this entity is most often talked about. I am glad that besides one policy I presented above there is also one importatnt guideline which supports adding "Petar Masarechi" version. Thank you for your point to it. Since "Petar Masarechi" version probably have more GS results (50) than all other together, I will follow WP:ENGLISH guideline and Wikipedia:Article titles policy and add it as alternative name.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:26, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are no too few English sources about the subject. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:41, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I believe there are because of very low google count. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Name

I get the following snippet hits at GBooks:

  • "Petar Masarechi" (47)
  • "Pjeter Mazreku" (31)
  • "Peter Masarechi" (23)
  • "Pietro Masarechi" (12)
  • "Petrus Masarechi" (5)
  • "Petrus Masarechus" (2)

Bold move to neutral and English Peter Masarechi.--Zoupan 22:00, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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