User talk:Jimbo Wales

If you are here to report abuse, or to request intervention in a dispute:

Please first read about resolving disputes, and try adding your request to the administrators' incident noticeboard instead.
Your grievance is much more likely to be investigated and acted upon in that forum.

If you are here with general questions about Wikipedia, or with 'reference desk' type questions:

Please redirect your Wikipedia questions to the appropriate department and your reference questions to the Help desk.
Your questions are much more likely to be answered in those forums.

Jimbo Wales reads all this with great interest, but usually you'll want to work with others first.

Your questions are much more likely to be answered in those forums.
The best way to get a response from Jimbo is to say something funny. :)

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Something fun from Jimbo for the politically inclined

Archives
as of Jan. 16, 2003 Sept. – Dec. 2005 January 2006 Jan. – Feb. 2006 February 2006 Feb. 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 May24 - July 2006 July 2006 - August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 -

Hello From Homestar Runner Wiki

Hello, Mr. Whales! My name is Brightstar Shiner and I would like to say hello on behalf of all of us at the Homestar Runner Wiki...for no particular reason at all, as it turns out. No I'm not a sysop or a beauracrat or anything, but I'm a nice plain user from over here. You should visit us sometime and talk to more important people like JoeyDay, the proprieter of our wiki. -216.255.63.167, a.k.a. Brightstar Shiner

Possible origin of Wikitruth

I only recently stumbled across "Wikitruth". Could it be that this anti-Wikipedia site has been created by multiple hardbanned User:Ted Wilkes alias User:DW alias User:NightCrawler and his many other sockpuppets? DW was under a hard ban since 2003 (see [1]) and "has been blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia, per ruling of administrators, Jimbo Wales", etc. in 2005. See [2], [3]. One of the criticisms against Wikipedia centers on you and the Wikipedia:Office Actions page which deals with certain legal issues. Ted Wilkes claimed to have much legal knowledge and used this knowledge in his mud-throwing campaign against arbcom member Fred Bauder. Wilkes, who plumed himself on being one of the best and most active contributors to Wikipedia, was blocked by arbcom ruling on 19 March 2006 for one year. See [4]. Is it just mere coincidence that Wikitruth was started shortly after that date, on 20 March 2006? His alias NightCrawler had much trouble with administrator Angela, ironically wishing Angie "WikiLove," etc. See [5], [6]. Significantly, Angela Beesley is attacked on the Wikitruth pages. Furthermore, administrator FCYTravis is one of Wikitruth's whipping boys, perhaps because Ted Wilkes had some trouble with this administrator on the Talk:Nick Adams page. See, for instance, [7]. Wikitruth also frequently claims that too many vandals and trolls "game the system" on Wikipedia. Is it just by chance that Wilkes and his supporter User:Wyss frequently accused user Onefortyone of gaming the system, being a troll, the "most dangerous vandal", etc., falsely claiming that this user's edits were fabricated, unfounded, or unwarranted and therefore must be removed. See [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]. Wyss even accused administrator Mel Etitis of being a troll. See [13]. For a summary of the facts, see also [14], [15]. Significantly, Wikitruth is recommended on Wyss's user page. See also [16]. So much for my suspicion concerning the origin of Wikitruth.

Brian Peppers

y the fucc did u fuccin delete the brian peppers article?, N y did u delete tha encyclopedia dramatica 1?

ur a bitch--EZ 19:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly this is why it was bad to delete and salt the Brian Peppers talk page. Before all this stuff went there and now it piles up on Jimbo's talk page. Also Jimbo did not delete the ED article, just the Brian Peppers one. The ED article was deleted by his administrators. Anomo 21:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Also the instant karma thing was not very funny. This IP is funny. The sheer mispelling of it all makes me laugh out loud. I wish he had an account so I could upload a screenshot of his post with red marking (like a teacher) correcting his mistakes, starting with the title. Hmm what's the properly spelled to improperly spelled ratio, 64%? Anomo 23:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to nominate this guy for admin! Dfrg.msc ^{1 . 2 . 3} 10:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

i do hav an account--EZ 19:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better if the article Brian Peppers contained a short explanation of why the page is protected (e.g stating that it was a biased biography of a non-notable living person, or whatever) rather than just saying the page has been deleted and should not be recreated? I think it would reduce confusion and complaints such as the one above. Jibjibjib 07:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a link to List of Internet phenomena would be appropriate. Jibjibjib 23:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Best would be for the developers to edit the .htaccess file to redirect all traffic going to that article to a ytmnd Brian Peppers article of their choosing. Anomo 08:33, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you kidding? They'll be getting something that's just set up to laugh at him. Part of what made having a WP article on him so useful was that it served as an alternative, even an antidote to that stuff. Everyking 08:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, yes, of course I am. I do seriously think they should link to some explanation so Jimbo's talk page isn't filled with people complaining. It's getting close to February 2008, too, or whenever it goes back up. Anomo 09:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jimbo

I Jim. I would just like to say I love this site and recently became a member. I always use wikipedia for reference and never knew that I could do edititng. Can you please respond? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tennislover (talk • contribs) 20 October, 2006.

Some suggestions

Hi, Mr Wales. I want to congratulate you on Wikipedia which I consider the best website on the internet. I am Meno25 but I sent this message from a public computer so I am not logged in.I have some suggestions for developping wikipedia:

• Starting a new project under the name Wikiuations concerned with all types of equations:mathematical, physical, and chemical. The database available at www.exampleproblems.com could be used as a start. It is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License.

• Starting a Wikipedia in Egyptian hieroglyphs.

• Stating the size and numbers of edits of each page when clicking the edit button in Wikipedia.

• Deleting all the old versions of all the pages of all the projects in all languages. This will save enormous load which will enable the servers to provide Wikipedia in a downloable version. Many people don't have access to the internet. Wikipedia users can download the database and burn it into CDs and distribute it.

• Deleting the projects:

1. 1. Wikinews: It wasts the efforts of the wikipedia community. If you want news, you go to CNN or Reuters.
   2. WikiBooks: There is no benefit in writing books now. This should be done in the future after some years. It wastst the time of the users.
   3. Wikiversity: There is no need for this project. It is similar to Wikibooks. It wasts the efforts of the users.

--196.202.92.192 21:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I think if you took at closer look at any of the projects you suggested deleted, you would see the vast potential and existing benefits. Wikinews allows for other viewpoints (as long as all sides and perspectives have somebody willing to contribute). Wikinews has also done lots of original reporting and made news available that has flown under the radar major news corporations. I'm not sure about this, but I seem to recall Wikinews having a important role with reporting on the 2004 Asian Tsunami, allowing for discoveries now covered by other news outlets. Besides, we don't want the major news corporations to be the only ones who decides the focus of the worlds attention, do we? :) And of course, there is the advantage of the free licensing.

Wikibooks has so great potential, I can't understand your lack of understanding for this project. Providing both free learning material and potentially everything else you can get from books. You might as well argue that libraries just a waste of space as well. I encourage you to take a deeper look amoung the Wiki-bookshelves!

And as for the other projects you suggested, they can come to existence as long as you get others enthusiastic about it!

Delta Tango | Talk 23:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• Hi, Delta Tango. I am Meno25. Thank you for your response on my question. I, on contrary to what you think, does not underestimate Wikinews and Wikibooks. I only said that these projects wastes the efforts of the Wikipedia community. I think that a few excellent projects like: Wikipedia and Wikitionary is better than many good projects. I only wanted the Wikimedia Foundation to provide Wikipedia for download. Providing the Wikipedia database for download is a must.

--84.36.143.135 17:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course Wikipedia is available for download. See m:Data dumps and http://download.wikimedia.org/. Chick Bowen 03:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Adelaide Entertainment

Mr Wales,

I hace recently written a artical on Adelaide entertainment (on the Adelaide page) and before it was even posted it was deleted I have asked on my talk on Adelaide's talk who did it and why, but no one has responded could you please do something about this, if not put the artical back but at least figure out who did it and why. Please I beg of you.

Kind regardsJohn Harrison Highns 02:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I did a search for Adelaide Entertainment and it returned article (stubs) on both Adelaide Entertainment CentER and Adelaide Entertainment CentRE, so it looks as if we already have two articles on the topic. Have a great day! 64.12.116.69 16:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

What is your opinion on Reward board?

What is your opinion on Reward board? Are you alright with it? --Exir Kamalabadi^{Join Esperanza!} 08:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Wales, please save Wikipedia

I could login and try a more private method but I haven't logged in for some months and don't wish to change that now. Many people (admins and users) use Wikipedia as if they are bullies in kindergarden. I don't know if shutting down the irc channels would help - it seems to me that certain admins seem to escalate their anger there and then block who-ever they want to bully with. I "came back" here to find a lot of people I knew (and some of them were your "wikifriends" too) either banned or left wikipedia on their own will. Perhaps it's about time some people in "high" wikipedia places to see what can be done to save wikipedia and stop (or at least calm down) those trigger happy admins who destroy the project. -- 22 October 2006, Noman the ex-Wikipedian

I must certainly agree, though I can't do anything about it. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  20:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes ArbCom gets it wrong

Jimbo, I've never bitched here before, but this time it is too outrageous to avoid. Nobody disagrees that linking to insulting pages about specific admins is a bad idea, but the blanket prohibition ArbCom made against linking to any page on Encyclopedia Dramatica from anywhere on Wikipedia is just wrong. It needs to be scaled back to just linking to "attack" pages (What a simple, common sense rule.)

Think about it as an outside observer: What would a reporter think of Wikipedia governance when they see users being banned for linking to any site on a domain that hosts Wikipedia criticism as a tiny part of it's hosted content? They won't care about the personalities involved, they will see it's just another heavy-handed, corral-the-wagons, response to criticism. SchmuckyTheCat 19:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree... I have strong distaste for the concept of banning all links (regardless of context) to particular sites for personal, social, political, or ideological reasons. I consider the insertion of such sites in the software's block list to be an abuse of that capability, which is intended purely for stopping spam (e.g., links to "herbal Viagra" sites that spammers try to insert irrelevantly). There are some web forums out there which program their software to censor out any mention of people, companies, organizations, and websites which for some reason rub the site owner the wrong way, like for being critics, competitors, politically-incorrect, etc. I dislike this sort of censorship there or here. *Dan T.* 19:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

<snark>Yes, Jimbo - please unilaterally undo ArbCom's careful decision and help to save these crucial, necessary links to the clearly innocent and misunderstood ED site - which really didn't mean to engage in a conscious pattern of attacks on WP editors, to collect identifying information, or to intentionally disrupt WP in the first place. It's clear that Wikipedia, with all its focus on neutrality and objectivity, is being malicious and short-sighted in defense of users and admins like MONGO, while the mature, well-regulated and verifiable ED is a precious resource that must be protected from evil encyclopedias like ours. Of course the difference between 'attack articles' and 'non-attack articles' on ED is WP's responsibility to assess at each occurrence, despite the massive disruption to WP that would result. And the attack article on MONGO being made the 'Main Page' was a purely random occurence that has no bearing on the intent of ED's admins.</snark>

Give me a break. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 19:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I won't go into the time that WP admins protected an article that linked to geocities pages with personal and work phone numbers and email addresses, and email addresses of work superiors of ED participants. The incivility goes both ways.

And yes, it is up to Jimbo to occasionally re-consider decisions made by admins and arbcoms. That's his role. I wouldn't exactly call the ban "carefully considered" given how it all works out.

And it's common sense - a specific ban against linking to attacks makes more sense than a blanket ban. It is the blanket ban causing the disruption. SchmuckyTheCat 19:50, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Not the case. Even links to ED's home page (a site with little control or verifiability) will require constant monitoring to avoid linking to attack pages (to say nothing of the interpretation of what constitutes an attack). And whatever took place on WP, WP will address. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for ED. The disruption is not caused by 'blanket bans', it's caused by trolls and disruptors who continue to attack, harass and troll users here. Common sense is reflected in the current policy, since ED is non-notable and the editors from ED here continue to be disruptive (like your 3RR in one day to revert the ED link on your user page). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 19:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I hoenestly don't see why anyone on Wikipedia would want to link to that website. A blanket ban seems perfectly logical to me. It's non-notable, and it (aperently) has pages specifically made to attack Wikipedia users/admins.--KojiDude ^{(Contributions)} 20:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

So you've been patrolling WikiTruth links lately? --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I see little reason to feed your argument (which is a clear logical fallacy). My position does not require me to patrol anything. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

What logical fallacy, exactly? No need to "feed" my argument, simply debunking yours. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The existence of policy regarding one site does not necessitate the existence of policy regarding all sites. Action regarding one site does not require action regarding all sites. Your flimsy strawman argument is hardly 'debunking'... it's just bunk. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

i'm sorry you either don't get it or refuse to get it, then. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I get it, but I require an argument to have logical consistency if I am to 'buy' it. Your argument has none. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

How many users are we going to lose over the dispute? [17]]

Just the ones that refuse to follow the rules to the point of disruption, I'd imagine. On WP, each of us is responsible for our own conduct. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

You're looking for "logical consistency"? How is it logically consistent that this site evaluates on a case-by-case basis, with no blanket ban, links to things ranging from Neo-Nazi propaganda to hard-core pornography, but imposes a knee-jerk ban on links to ED? Now, I happen to think the ED site is tasteless and juvenile myself, and have no desire to insert links to it whether or not there's a rule against it, but it seems to me the Wikipedia admin reaction to that site has more emotion than rationality behind it. *Dan T.* 22:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I think a 'case-by case' basis is appropriate for matters of sexual content and matters dealing with Nazi-related issues. There's plenty of encyclopedic value in sexual and Nazi topics. For example I would support the existence of an article on the 'American Nazi Party', as I've said before, because it has a clear encyclopedic value. However, unlike those examples ED is not notable, non-encyclopedic and not merely 'tasteless and juvenile' - it's engaged in a specific, ongoing effort to attack users of WP by identifying them in the real world. Surely that represents a more direct threat than a discussion over whether an image is encyclopedic or merely pornographic, don't you agree? In short, I don't see anywhere near an equivalency between your examples and the ArbCom ruling regarding ED. If the 'American Nazi' home page contained identifying information about WP admins, I'd support a ban on links. And please don't remind me that there's a list of WP editors on Stormfront, because I know it well - I'm one of the editors listed there as being part of the 'Inner Zionist cabal'. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

ED is marginally notable (perhaps notable only among the wiki subculture), but it did survive the AfD process the first time, succumbing only later after managing to piss off too many influential Wikipedians. And other sites such as Nazi sites, homophobic sites, anti-abortion sites, etc., sometimes do publish personal information in an attempt to provoke retribution against their enemies. If Wikipedia takes special action against sites that do this to WP admins, but not those who do the same tactic against other groups, then it's giving its own admins more consideration than others, not a NPOV stance. *Dan T.* 23:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

*Dan T.*, Wikipedia administrators often delete edits that link to personal information about Wikipedia users. Sometimes (on request and if appropriate) the edits will be removed through Oversight so even administrators can not see the edit. If you need help with this matter, please contact me by email with a detailed request, and leave a discrete post about it on my talk page. FloNight 23:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

AfD has an inherent flaw in that while it allows admins to exercise their judgement, it doesn't force them to. "No consensus" may indicate a split argument, or it may be a cop out. Consequently an article may be renominated until a genuine conclusion is reached, and WP:CCC explictly allows for this. ED succumbed not because it "pissed off influential Wikipedians" (with the possible exception of those who have been targeted for harrassment, no-one cares, simple as that), but because once a proper assessment was made of its case for encyclopaedic notability, the result was inevitably its deletion. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 01:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it any less encyclopedically notable than Uncyclopedia, which still has an entry? The fact that Uncyclopedia is actually funny, rather than just tasteless, isn't actually relevant to the respective notability of the sites, is it? *Dan T.* 02:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Unencyclopaedia has received significant external coverage. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 12:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I too am not affiliated with ED, have never posted there, and only recently learned of the whole mess when an ED link on one of my essays was purged alonng with every other ED link on wikipedia. This is very troubling. If we start wholesale banning of links to websites, based NOT on the content of the linked-to-page, but based only on the identities of the domain name, it causes a horrible rift in the community-- good people, with non-offensive links, get yelled at for linking to an attack site. And where will it end? I've already encountered people who want to ban all links to white supremacists site. Non-attack/Non-harassing ED links on user and talk pages should be re-instated. --Alecmconroy 21:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

See above. White supremacy is a notable movement. ED is not a notable movement, it is a website whose community managed to obtain substantial overlap with ours and consequently adversely influenced AfDs until someone finally called time. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 01:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Sam- I personally am not debating whether there should be an article on ED or not-- I haven't even read through the AFD, I can't speak intelligently on it. I'm just saying that right now, we have a very dangerous policy of "No linking to ANY document on ED servers, for ANY reason, regardless of the content of that document or the reason for linking to it". I would just say that in some narrow cases-- talk pages, user pages, etc, there could be valid reasons to link to ED. We shouldn't delete links ONLY because of the servers they reside on. If the linked-to content is in any way harassment, then of course it's fine to delete them. But if the linked-to material is acceptable, why should we delete the link?

I think it's just a very dangerous policy for us to have a wikipedia-wide policy of automatically purging ALL links to a site. It makes us look like we're implementing a censorship wall that silences Wikipedia's critics, not unlike the kind of filtration the Chinese government uses to censor its critics. And if we admit ED as the first domain name which "you are never allowed to link to", I 100% guarantee, people won't want it to end there. There are a lot of sites out there which people wish didn't exist: Wikitruth, Neo-Nazis, The KKK, NAMBLA, etc. I'm not trying to be alarmist and claim that this is a slippery slope, where this one policy will result in a chain reaction that will unravel all of Wikipedia. The slope may not be slippery, but a site-wide blacklist of ED links is one step down that slope all the same.

If someone finds a silly, non-offensive, non-harassing humor article on ED and wants to link to it from their user page, let's let them, the same way we'd let someone link to a blog site, quiz site, or other non-notable site.

--Alecmconroy 04:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

There is not a single possible link to ED that would benefit the encyclopaedia. User pages are not free web hosting, so that doesn't count - it's not as if we're stopping people from linking to whatever they like on their actual personal webpages. Given that, it is in our interests to have a rule that prevents wikilawyering.

How can we possibly be said to be 'silencing our critics'? We have no influence over ED whatsoever - they can say whatever they like, they just can't use up our time and bandwidth in doing it. I don't particularly care if a drunk across the street calls me a wanker, but if he comes into my house and continues calling me a wanker, then I think I have the right to throw him out.

Still, if you can get a Chinese political prisoner to agree with you that not being able to add a link to some website is morally equivalent to getting a cattle prod to the balls for voting for the wrong guy, I might change my mind. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 12:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, Wikipedia is explictly not an experiment in free speech, so any arguments against the ruling that hinge on free speech are null. The only relevant issue is whether a link to ED might benefit the encyclopaedia, which it clearly never will. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 12:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Sam-- you make some excellent and thought-provoking points. First, I must confess, I do realize I'm being a tad histrionic when I liken the ED-link ban to Chinese communism-- I really shouldn't do that. I do it at least semi-ironically, but it probably is a little disrepectful to the people who have been tortured and killed in that situation. Analogies like these just sort of go with the territory in these sorts of discussions. <grin>. I'm just happy nobody's compared anyone to Hitler.

Additionally, I should say upfront-- I don't really expect Jimbo to overturn Arbcom on this. I would never even have thought to ask him, and I'm almost positive I wouldn't overturn Arbcom if I was in his shoes-- even if I disagreed with the ruling itself. Overturn a unanimous ruling by the community's elected representatives-- a ruling which has clear support from a lot of the community? Nah. So-- I'm aware that I'm sort of tilting at windmills here, but I find the dialogue itself to be useful to my understanding of the project, and if somebody wants to read and reply, I'd certainly enjoy hearing what you and others think of my concerns.

Let's concede that "The only relevant issue is whether a link to ED might benefit the encyclopaedia". I feel, quite strongly, that some ED links could be VERY beneficial to the encyclopedia. I actually can think of a lot of cases where a link to ED might be useful:

1. A link to ED is useful to report on ED itself. Right now, the consensus seems to be we don't need to cover ED because it's non-notable. But at some point in the future, ED may become notable enough to merit an article. If that happens, shouldn't Wikipedia be able to link to the site being discussed? Links to an organizations website are very useful, and those links make Wikipedia a better resource.
2. In some cases, an ED page can be useful because of the information it contains. I know this from personal experience, because an ED page helped me once to understand why a Wikipedia policy was important. I read the policy page, and didn't fully 'get it'. I clicked on a link which took me to an ED page, and that page, though satirical and irreverent, instantly conveyed to me the importance of the Wikipedia policy. Perhaps my experience was unique, but since someone took the time to create the link and since that someone is an admin, we know that at least one other person sincerely found the link useful. And since the link stayed up on a major WP policy page for about six months, I bet others thought the ED page was useful too. ED is so offensive and unreliable, it's easy to conclude nothing it could possibly say could ever have value-- but I think that conclusions wrong: some of its pages might actually be useful. The usefulness of a link should be decided on a case-by-case basis, not on a site-by-site basis.
3. ED links are very useful in inter-editor communication. Normally in the above discussion about the page I found useful, I would SHOW you the page I found helpful by linking to it, and I would ask you if you, too, felt it could be useful to Wikipedia. Maybe you'd look at the page and agree it might be helpful. Or maybe you'd look at the page and be able to point out to me why it wouldn't be helpful. But right now, we can't have that discussion because of the policy of not linking to ED. So, even though it's just you and I having a conversation on a user_talk page, the "no linking to ED" policy is interfering with our ablity communicate. I would find it useful, and I think it would help Wikipedia, if I could show you the link right now, so we could talk about it. See what I mean? And it's not just this discussion where links to ED would be useful-- there are lots of instances. At some point, someone is going to try to revist the issue of whether ED is notable-- are we going to let editors in that discussion link to ED to as evidence for ED's complete lack of reliability and notability to prove the site still doesn't merit an article? What about ArbCom cases or user-conduct RFCs, where someone who is being harassed on ED wants to provide evidence of the off-wiki attacks? I think most editors would agree that links in those cases would be useful to Wikipedia, but right now, if the current "never link to ED" policy stands, an editor in that situation could actually be blocked just for presenting evidence showing they themselves are being attacked! (Naturally, I presume that if that situation ever arose, all admins would recognize that the flaws in the "Never, ever link to ED" policy, the editor wouldn't actually be blocked.)
4. Most importantly, links to ED are useful to Wikipedia, because they show our journalistic integrity. This isn't something to take lightly. Wikipedia is working hard to be taken seriously, and it is critical for us to show that we can abide by the same standards of ethics and objectivity that would apply to a reputable newspaper or a respected news network. In journalism-- you don't report on a person differently just because that person has criticized you. CNN still covers polticians who harshly criticize the network. When the New York Times published The Pentagon Papers, it still reported both sides of a story, even if it meant publishing comments from people who accused the paper of committing espionage and treason. Right now, Wikipedia has deleted every single ED link, purging the links even from talk page archives and RFC archives. It's an unprecedented step. And we're doing it for only one reason-- whoever runs ED was very, very mean to us. They've criticized our editors, they've made libellous statements, and they've harassed us-- and because of that, we've changed our linking policy with regard to that site. That change in policy makes us look very bad. Therefore, a few links to ED pages are VERY useful to Wikipedia, because they allow us to avoid the appearance of impropriety-- they allow us to show that we, as an community, are mature enough to treat our detractors the same way we treat our supporters-- rather than having separate rules for those who criticize us.

I'm sure some people reading this argument think I'm fighting for ED. I'm not. I don't care about them. I care about us. ED doesn't need us to link to them in order to have their brand of "fun". ED doesn't need the links, and I wouldn't care if they did. It's not about that. WE need those links. We are the ones who need to be able to link to ED. We need those links in order to carry on discussions amongst ourselves. We need them in case some day we want to create an ED article. And most importantly, we need those links so we can show that we're bigger than they are, and we can handle this like a real encyclopedia would-- by treating ED the same way we treat everybody else.

And the way we handle harassment and insults in every other case is that if a link is being used for the purposes of libel and harassment, it's gone. If someone keeps inserting such links for the purposes of libel and harassment, then they're gone. But if a link isn't harassing, libeling, or insulting, and if that link is, in fact, useful to the discussion at hand-- we don't delete it, just because it came from a site that's critical of us. That policy works for every other link on wikipedia-- I think it can work links to ED too.

To anyone who waded through all this, my very honest thanks.  :) Let me reiterate that I have absolutely no intention of violating the policy, and that i'm not trying to attack anyone who supports the policy in what i've said above-- issues like these are always tricky, and by criticizing the policy, i'm not in any way trying to criticze the people who create and implement it.

--Alecmconroy 14:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting points (frankly, far more interesting and credible than I would have ever expected in this thread). Could you email me the link you were referring to that clarified Wikipedia policy? Personally, I would think it probable that we should make the policy more clear rather than rely on an attack site, but I would like to see the exact details first. As for the rest, I'm afraid your CNN analogy still falls down on the same problem that ED is not notable and does not merit coverage, unlike your critical politician. CNN may cover notable politicians' criticism, but it wouldn't cover some random guy in the street telling everyone he hated CNN.

Besides, we have articles not only on Uncyclopaedia but also on Wikitruth and coverage of Daniel Brandt's Wikipedia Watch, plus the entire Criticism of Wikipedia article, so it is perfectly clear that we have no problem with covering criticism of ourselves - we just don't allow handwringing over whether we're censoring dissent to interfere with our nature as an encyclopaedia.

As for the assertion that ED might be notable at some point in the future, so we should leave the door open, I sincerely doubt that will ever happen. Much like myg0t, it is so difficult to imagine an event that would catapult them into historical record that the possibility isn't worth factoring into our decisions now. If that earth-shattering event does occur, we can simply ask Arbcom to reconsider. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 17:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment. I agree with a lot of what you said. We at Wikipedia actually do quite an incredible job of covering criticism of ourselves, and ED probably doesn't have much to add to the serious discourse about that subject. I also tend to agree with you that it's quite improbable that ED will become notable enough to merit reconsideration of the AFD, and it's utterly inconceivable that they will ever become a Reliable Source. And you're absolutely right to point out that when I talk about the CNN's decision making process, at a certain point the analogy breaks down, because CNN and it's critics are clearly notable, whereas ED is not. I completely understand where people are coming from on that. It's not that I'm advocating for the creation of any links to ED per se.

If a given link is truly not useful to the encyclopedia, I have no problem with its removal. And if it happens that when all is said and done, we decide in every indivdual case that a link to ED isn't useful and should be deleted-- that's fine, and that's how it should be. But actually making that decision based on the link's usefulness is very, very important. According to this new policy, it doesn't matter whether a link to ED is useful or not-- even if all editors on a page agreed the link was useful and beneficial to Wikipedia, we still couldn't insert it. Indeed, under the new policy, we're not even allowed to show other editors the link, in order to discuss its usefulness or lack therefore.

And sometimes an ED link _can_ be useful-- in whole or in part. Take that one link that I found useful. When it was initially added to Avoid Weasel Words by Taw (an admin), he praised it as "concisely describes the problem" (diff). Despite the fact the linked-to page resided on a server run by troublemakers, the link was an interesting read, and I feel like I'm a better editor because of having read it. Now, even if the policy was overturned, I wouldn't insert that link right now, because six months or so after Taw inserted the link, ED added a graphic pornographic onto the linked-to page, and when that happened, the link became offensive and was appropriately removed from Avoid Weasel Words, because our policy pages probably shouldn't link to sites that have images that are so offensive.

But the linked-to page, and its text, was useful to the Encyclopedia for a little bit, and it could still be useful, albeit not on the policy page itself. It would be useful for me to be able to show the link to you and ask you want you think, as regards to the current policy. In an informal talk page discussion with someone about weasel words, mightn't it be useful for me show someone that link? Or suppose we want to, as you suggest, improve the policy page by having people take a look at the link-- I'm not allowed to even show the link to them in order to suggest it. And if other editors wanted to alter the Wikipedia page by incorporating ideas found in the linked-to ED article, that ALSO would be explicity forbidden under the new policy, which prohibits including material from E. I even had a small amount of trepidation about even linking to Taw's diff above, because the wrong person could try claim that such it violates the spirit of the policy.

If a link truly is not useful to Wikipedia, then let's kill it-- but shouldn't THAT be the standard, not what server the link points to. Personally, I think the old system worked fine, and the new policy is unnecessary. When you look at the list of all the ED that were semi-automatically transformed into broken links, I don't see any that were in the actual article space-- the old process appears to have been completely successful in removing them. By and large, it looks like we were using ED links exclusively to foster inter-user communication-- we have a lot of people linking to ED as evidence in Arbcom cases, people pointing to it in AFD discussions, and on user_talk pages. Aside from the main page, it seems like the most-linked-to ED page was their page on the term "Bureaucratic Fuck" and the links generally were inserted by users who self-applied the term. (see, for example Mikkalai's Candidate Statement). Again, it looks to me like that old system was working-- removing links that were offensive, keeping those that were useful.

I know there's a real pragmatic streak in the Wikipedia community. It's one of our strengths, and it has a lot of benefits. So I'm sure some people are saying-- what different does it make WHY we remove links-- if the ED domain name is a quick and easy way to get rid of them all, let's just do that, so we don't have to even think about whether each individual link is useful or not. But sometime's process is important-- Wikipedia's reputation for reliability and ethics come from our process. Let me go back to my CNN analogy. If CNN chooses not to report someone's opinion because their opinion wasn't newsworthy-- that's fine. But if, instead, it's revealed tha CNN reporters don't even question the newsworthiness-- instead, they have a policy that prohibits ANY reporting with regard to particular critic of the network-- then their journalistic ethics are going to be called into question. Even if that particular critic's opinion might NOT have been newsworthy. CNN needs to be able to say "We considered the newsworthiness of Congressman ED's opinion, but we decided it wasn't sufficiently notable to merit a report in this instance." But it looks very bad for CNN to say "It is our network's policy never to report on Congressman ED's opinions, so, we did not even consider whether his opinion might be newsworthy in this instance. But rest assured, we've generally found his opinions to by very un-newsworthy in the past-- he's unreliable and a harasser".

And I know I'm _really_ stretching things to liken ED to a congressman.. (well, maybe if somebody's really, really jaded and cynical about politics it's not THAT much of a stretch. <grin>). But the crux of my analogy isn't about ED's notability-- it's about OUR integrity. We need to step through the process of actually considering the usefulness of a link, and not getting lazy and resorting to the rule that "Everything else that person says hasn't merited inclusion, so I'm sure whatever they say next can automatically be deleted".

Maybe links like "Some Argue" could be useful in discussing how to improve our policy pages. Maybe links like "Bureaucratic Fuck" are useful for inter-user communication. Maybe other links to ED are useful in order to defend yourself against harassment. Maybe ED links are useful to discuss whether or not ED is notable, and deserves its own page or a mention on some other page. And maybe ED links are useful in some way I haven't considered. But even if all of those links turn out NOT to be useful-- it still is beneficial to Wikipedia for us to consider the usefulness of those links on a case-by-case basis.

Again, thanks for listening. I know I do tend towards the verbose-- I'm sorry for that. :) Anyway, I hope at least something of what all I say was worth reading, but I do admit that I seem to be in the real minority on this issue, so there's always that the possibility that "what I just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things you have ever heard, that at no point in my rambling, incoherent response wass I even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought, and that everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it." (to quote from Billy Madison) <grin>. --Alecmconroy 08:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm absolutely convinced we shouldn't ever link to ED now. ED's page on weasel words doesn't add anything apart from 'humour' that doesn't rise above the level of 'lol they said fuck', and it's absolutely inconceivable that we should add an external link on the knowledge that we'll have to continuously monitor its content in case the site's editors decide to post an obscene picture. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 10:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Are Wikitruth, and Daniel Brandt's sites, actually more notable than ED too? The amount of zeal and draconianness being put into suppressing all links to ED, regardless of context, troubles me. Among the places where it's recently been de-linked is archives of talk and project pages where there were discussions and debates over whether particular things in that site were suitable for links in articles or not. The outcome, as far as I could see, was to decide not to link it in the articles in question (even before the ArbCom ruling), but killing the link even on the talk archive is suppressing relevant history. It also troubles me that Arbcom can make rulings that are binding even on people who were not parties to the case involved, and that amount to making general Wikipedia policy; shouldn't such policy be made by community consensus? *Dan T.* 23:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Arbcom did rule somewhere that sysops who resign have to go through the votes to get their power back so that's a binding to all kind of. I think the whole ED link thing would be a lot easier if it was spam blacklisted instead of banning people for linking to it. Anomo 07:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

While ED as a site is troubling, I'm going to criticize Arbcom about something arbcom related. Arbcom choses who gets to be CheckUser. Guess who they always choose? Themselves. That said, if I were an admin here, I would fear wikipedia watch somewhat more than ED because wikipedia watch puts the admin's personal information and ED if they do it, it's a lot less. Anomo 07:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

...And guess who chooses ArbCom—that would be us. Jimbo gets a veto over ArbCom candidates, but the last eleven individuals added to the Committee were supported by at least two thirds of the community. (Nine were approved by more than three quarters of voters.) Note that not all of the Arbitrators have CheckUser privileges, and also there are at least two individuals with CheckUser (Essjay and Redux) are are not present or past members of ArbCom. (Both are Bureaucrats, however—another position that requires a very high level of community support and trust to attain.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Not even an article? With all the useless crap on wikipedia, are you telling me that ED is less notable than, say, Last Measure, a shock site created by a couple of trolls? What kind of intellectual honesty are we talking here? OK, I know that "one man's crap . . ." but my point on intellectual honesty stands. --Justanother 14:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

One bad article does not excuse another - besides, Last Measure doesn't seem to have even undergone an AfD. Though if you nominated it, you'd get a lot of armwaving "of course it's notable, I've heard of it!" !votes, and would probably have to hope for one of those abusive rouge admins to insist on policy when closing it. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 16:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Copyright question

Jimbo, is it safe for me to presume that you frown on Wikipedia articles that are plagiarized from other sources, almost all of which are under copyright? Well, there's a page on the web that lists dozens of these, with links to the original source, and a copy of the Wikipedia article with careful highlighting of the portions that are plagiarized. No, I cannot tell you where to find this page, because if I try to link to it, my edit gets trashed. This page is on the spam blacklist, you see, put there by Raul654. Wait until some reporters find it -- this will make a great story. 68.93.140.47 19:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

You can certainly post the title of the article/page you are concerned about without linking to it, the spam filter won't stop you from doing that. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Why should I bother? I've already been banned for making legal threats, and this would be interpreted as a legal threat also, no doubt. 68.93.140.47 19:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, no it wouldn't be. Also, please keep in mind that you can always use WP:OTRS to resolve copyright concerns. JoshuaZ 19:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

If you're not interested in pursuing your evidence here, then why did you bother to post here? User:Zoe|(talk) 19:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, pointing out copyright issues is not something normally blocked for under WP:LEGAL. If you tell me your username, I'll review the block. JoshuaZ 20:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no procedure on Wikipedia to report plagiarism, which is distinct from copyright violation. A lot of plagiarism is also a copyright violation. But some plagiarism may be of a public domain source, where the original source is either unattributed, or attributed in a manner that does not make it clear that verbatim copying is involved. Anyway, most of the plagiarism I've found is also a copyright violation, so go ahead and start blanking the articles. They're listed at wikipedia-watch.org/psamples.html Currently 70 articles are listed, which is about half of the ones I've found so far. The other half will be listed within a few days. 68.93.140.47 20:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia-watch is hardly a reliable source for anything, in particular Wikipedia. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Besides, if they were really interested in improving Wikipedia, instead of just attacking it, they would have reported the so-called copyvios and gotten them fixed, instead of just using it for further Wikipedia bashing. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Click on the article name, and you see the article, you see the link where the plagiarism came from, and you see the plagiarism highlighted in the article. Compare the source next to the Wikipedia article. Do you really want to be quoted as saying that Wikipedia-Watch is unreliable, and imply that Wikipedia should ignore this evidence? 68.93.140.47 21:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

• Mr Brandt's tool has proven quite useful, in fact. It's found quite a few copyright violations for us, and we've been busily cleaning them up. Thank you very much, Mr Brandt. Keep up the good work! DS 02:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

A technical problem I noticed on Wikitionary

On Wiktionary, in order to access the logs, you have to type "Special:Log" into the searchbar and click go, but in all of the other Wikimedia sites that I've been to before, you can either type that or "Special:log" (non capital L in "log"). You may want to have this corrected on Wiktionary to avoid confusion.--Rouge Rosado Oui? 00:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Wiktionary has decided that capitalization matters in article titles (a reasonable position for a dictionary to take), and that happened to spill over into other things like the link to the logs. I don't see it as anything worth worrying about. --Carnildo 08:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for CSD G12 clarification

Hey Big J. The main difference between {{db-copyvio}} and {{copyvio}} used to the 48 hour requirement. Now you've done away with it, shall we scrap the whole copyvio report-and-wait systems? Shall I go and speedy delete all the articles here? Thanks for clarifying. - CrazyRussian talk/email 01:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Crzrussian, There are still several useful differences, such as

• No non-infringing material
• No assertion of permission

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 14:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Wik

Hi Jimbo. I and a number of other editors (who I'm happy to name privately) have arrived at the conclusion that Wik may have returned. Based on a long history of abusive behaviour, harrassment and a general analysis of behavioural characteristics (eg using long, abusive edit summaries, failing to respond to talk page requests, conducting edit wars via edit summary, deleting comments from his talk page without response etc etc). We suspect that DreamGuy (who was found the likely originator of the sock account Victrix via checkuser request) = Wik. I decided not to take the matter further when he disappeared some time ago - however he has now returned after a period of absence, and is continuing as before. If you want any further details, feel free to contact me. --Gene_poole 03:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to update you, DreamGuy has today progressed to creating multiple sock accounts based on his and my handle, in order to harrass me and vandalise micronation. The socks include Genetauri, Geamdry and Gene_Centauri. This identical pattern of behaviour was used previously by Gzornenplatz to disrupt Wikipedia - and is clearly being used by him again, under a new account name. --Gene_poole 04:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you'll have better results if you post at WP:LTA or WP:SSP.Antonrojo 15:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

New kind of semi-Admins: the Revert Users (RU-Users)

A new category of users can be invented with partial Admin capabilities, they will have the possibility to revert much easier, but not to block editors. Blocking the editors will be done as today. What do you say?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship#New_kind_of_semi-Admins:_the_Revert_Users_.28RU-Users.29 --Wissahickon Creek ^talk 20:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Miswording of full-size image downloads on image pages

Hi Jimbo, I have noticed that the full size images uploaded to wikipedia are designated as "high-resolution" images even though they may be, in fact, low-resolution. I suggest that this be reworded to "Download Full-size image". I don't know where to address this issue other than to you. --User:Fahrenheit451 18:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Jimbo Wales on cs.wiki

Hi, I am admin on cs.wiki, where somebody has registered account User:Jimbo Wales. Please, can you verify or negate here, that this account is your? Thanks very much. --Petr.adamek 03:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Not me, thanks. --Jimbo Wales 04:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Guten tag!

Ich habe sehen ihr Wörden an ihr Benutzerseite und was Sie sagt auf sprechen im Deutsch, und so ich bin sagen dies jetzt für Sie aber meine Deutsch ist nicht sehr gut oder grammatisch

Whew! That's probably all the German I'll be able to squeeze out for a while, but I thought I'd do it anyway. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  05:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Better would be Ich habe Ihre Wörter auf Ihre Benutzerseite gesehen, und was Sie über Sprechen auf Deutsch sagt, also jetzt sage ich dies für Sie. (I'm not claiming that that's perfect grammar, just as much as I can remember). The important thing to remember is that, being German, your verbs in massive grammatical train wreck to the end gone have should. :-) --Sam Blanning^(talk) 10:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow! I knew that it was wrong not. ;) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  20:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Debates over subject's homosexuality

I just love Wikipedia. I just hate all thr discussion in biographies as to whether someone is gay. I'm not a tail gunner, and couldn't give a rat's arse whether someone is or was. You can't censor I know, but I suggest that if someone in discussion uses the words "Gay' homosexual, pillow biter etc" is flagged "boring".

XSebX 09:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Under our living persons policy, if they did it enough we'd flag them "banned". Yes, we can and should censor - if someone makes that sort of controversial assertion and doesn't have reliable sources to back it up, the post should be removed, whether from articles, talk pages or anywhere else. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 10:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

How do you pronounce "Wikipedia"?

Jimbo,

How do you yourself pronounce "Wikipedia", please? I'm asking particularly about the second syllable. In the word "wiki", I think most everyone would pronounce the second syllable similar to the English word "key". But I can imagine that in "wikipedia" the second "i" might get shortened, so that the whole thing sounds like it contains the word "kip" rather than the word "keep". What do you say?

(Note to anyone else reading this: I'm asking specifically how Jimbo pronounces it rather than how you or anyone else does, although if it's a FAQ then you could still be helpful by pointing me to an answer he has provided previously.)

Many thanks, Arbitrary username 15:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This is an interesting question. I'd like to know to. If you've heard of the Wikipedia Weekly podcast, Jimmy, we're dealing with this issue on Episode 3 (due this week). Any input? – Chacor 15:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd check this out. [18]. AniMate 06:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC) Thanks, that's interesting, but it doesn't specifically answer how Jimbo pronounces it. Arbitrary username 07:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I've heard him talk. The second syllable becomes a schwa just like as the overwhelming majority of American English speakers. "WICK-uh-peed-ee-uh" 75.35.216.37 22:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

LOST!

¡Hola! I'm watching this show too and until now I love it! My theory is that some eccentric millionaire mad scientist is playing The Sims on that island; since he can't create his own puppets, he looks up for interesting characters to put on his island, fixes them up a bit (healing etc.) and plays by subjecting the poor folk to strange phenomena created through a computer system which runs the island. Like with the Sims, the objective of the game will be something around the lines of creating a (perfect?) society in an unnatural environment but more importantly, just to have fun in the process! (subjecting your characters to extreme duress just tests their metal and it doesn't matter much if the dullest/weakest are killed)... that said, I really don't have great expectations about the final solution the writers will give to this show. I've noticed a pattern in which they twist and twist stories so that the mysteries will go deeper (making it harder to find a logical solution) in order to keep us interested but then they won't make a great effort in giving awesome solutions. Well, that's just my opinion...you did ask for someone to explain! ;)

By the way, I'm loving it here at Wikipedia! Rosa 16:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

No doubt Thurston Howell III. --EngineerScotty 21:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

That's precisely whom I was thinking about...how did you know? ;) Rosa 23:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, everyone. This is a Wiki, I'll do the first stanza. In honor of our fearless leader:

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale, a tale of a fateful scene

That started in a Sydney port, aboard Flight 815

A murderer, a Saddam thug, and an ex-cop from L.A.

If this had been a real flight, they'd be banned by TSA

Banned by TSA

The 'quipment failed, the pilots tried

Diversion to Fiji

But then the plane it broke apart

Into pieces three

It crashed onto a desert isle

Most are dead I fear

'Xcept the Passengers, The Others too

The Stewardess, and the Babe (cute little guy)

And Tattoo too, no wait, wrong show

Da plane's already here

No plot device too ludicrous

(The writers all are geeks)

On this bastard cross 'tween Gilligan,

The X-Files and Twin Peaks

There's monsters and mythology

And government spooks galore

We're waiting for a UFO

To wash up on the shore

So join us here each Wednesday night

It really is a lark

But hurry, it's third season

'Bout time to jump the shark!

Shameless pandering, I know. :) --EngineerScotty 06:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

A NEW RELIGION!!!

Mr Wales, O god like one, it seems you have (unadvertedly (is that the right word?) started a religion. Humanistical has the article on his/her user page. Also, I love Wikipedia. Well done!

Mindofzoo999 09:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I hope you didn't start that "Jimmy Wales" wiki yourself... :)

Serebriakova

I was mandated by my aunt Catherine Serebriakoff, daughter of the artist to avoid errors on Zinaida Serebriakova's life. Just as the Benois, our relatives, we are asking to write Serebriakova and nothing else, as the painter used to do, the other transcriptions are comming from the today's russian phonetic. She has left Russia (USSR in fact) in 1924 and never came back. She lived in France with a Nansen Passport (see Society of Nations report)until 1947 where she took the French Nationality. The Family archives are more reliable than anything else and our references are comming from there. As for pictures permissions, could you tell me exactly what we have to wright and whom. I am living in France, so the best for me would be to have a contact with Wikipedia France.Catherine Boncenne 10:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

I've been editing various articles on the Wikipedia for several months now, but I had no idea who started this fabulous resource and ongoing project. Now that I've found out it was you, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you. Regards, RobertAustin 10:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Govern?

Please tell me, how you do govern this anarchy? Wandalstouring 19:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't, actually. The community does. I merely play a certain role in that process, a role which is steeped deep in Wikipedia history, symbolism, and custom. I think of my chief function around here is to try to help remind people what we are trying to do, what kind of people we want to be, and how we are trying to change the world. I think virtually everything about Wikipedia follows from that... what kind of people do we want around, what kind of people do we need to ban, etc. --Jimbo Wales 22:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

"My name is Jimbo Wales and I am the founder and president of the Wikimedia Foundation, the group that governs Wikipedia." ? Wandalstouring 04:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo, call the Royal Guard on the nonconformist renegade! Rosa 07:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo, does this mean you won't intervene or interfere in future ArbCom elections, as has been your habit up to now? You'll let the community decide for itself who it wants on the ArbCom? Everyking 08:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Wandalstouring, the chaos is managed like this: People patrolling every new edit and people who take their favorite articles, watch them and act as custodians of them. Anomo 08:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean an oligarchy of the watchful?

Yes, I'm one of those. While I was reading about the great admiration for the founder of wikipedia and the whole nature of the project, I was simply starting to wonder. We claim this to be an anarchic community governing itself, but we do have no other words than "govern" to state what the Wikimedia Foundation does. For example how many people did vote to put the many wikiprojects into live? How are these decisions made? By "people patrolling every new edit" or watching "their favorite articles"?

So I doubt it can be stated that the community does govern (reminds me a bit about the "dictatorship of the proletariat" joke). A certain ambiente for working has been created and there have been applied rules how to use the tools. Fine, but that means we are not a self-governing body, but a public workshop. Everybody can come and work and if you try to blow up the building you get blocked by our elected security. The founder has given us some rights of co determination, but there are still some rules he established and we have to abide to.

So formulating this statement in accordance with my construct:

We do actually govern by imposing some basics and guarding the means to enforce them. We let the established community make all other decisions. I see myself as merely playing a certain role in that process, a role which is steeped deep in Wikipedia history, symbolism, and custom. I think of my chief function around here is to try to help remind people what we are trying to do, what kind of people we want to be, and how we are trying to change the world. I think virtually everything about Wikipedia follows from that... what kind of people do we want around, what kind of people do we need to ban, etc.

And coming down from such intellectual highlights, I think we should keep in mind that we have a very free community workshop here, but governed by an institution.

The systemic bias of Wikipedia from its group of a limited social spectrum as well as its prominence in distributing written word worldwide make it quite attractive to inflict local (article or subject based) rule of community members. Expanding this, there could establish an overall rule of a selected community, something that may possibly happen in small wikis, but while they are free to decide there can never be a takeover of the "government". Wandalstouring 22:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Emeritus

Hello! Your Wikipedia article says, "Jimmy Donal "Jimbo" Wales is the founder, board member and Chairman Emeritus of the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation."

Wikipedia's definition of Emeritus states, "Emeritus (IPA pronunciation: [əˈmɛrɪtəs] or [ɪˈmɛrɪtəs]) is an adjective that is used in the title of a retired professor, bishop or other professional. Emerita (IPA pronunciation: [ɪˈmɛrɪtə]) was used for women, but is rarely used today. The term is used when a person of importance in a given profession retires, so that his or her former rank can still be used in his or her title. This is particularly useful when establishing the authority a person might have to comment, lecture or write on a particular subject."

If possible, could you console me by letting me know that you're not actually retiring from the project, but are simply ditching some of your board duties to concentrate more on what you love (and do so well) -- public Wikipedia speaking? 152.163.100.69 03:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Right, I am retired from being board chair, not from the projects! I am still on the board, I am still doing my outreach work, and I am still devoting a ton of time to meeting and working with people from all the language communities worldwide. :)--Jimbo Wales 16:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Would appreciate your thoughts on user watchlists

Hi, I would really appreciate your thoughts on the existance of user watchlists (see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Psychonaut/User watchlist). These pages would seem to contravene both the spirit and the letter of WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF and WP:PA to me by their very nature. However it's a tricky issue that I feel really needs your input.

Understand I am not soliciting your support (as if!) but your honest feeling about these pages which, once given, I will be happy to abide by, including fully or partially withdrawing the MFD. --Zeraeph 18:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Pardon me for barging in, but I thought you should see the entire debate in order to get a feeling for the current opinions involved. Psychonaut's search for more people on Counter-Vandalism Unit - now relocated --A green Kiwi in learning mode 19:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

An unfair case

Hello! I recently made the following comments on the talk page of Chinese people and was blocked indefinitely. The reason given to me is a sock puppet case. Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Snle. The computer I used is one at my university computer lab, which is shared by all students. I think the administrator's action is totally unfair. I took a look at the sock puppet case and didn't see many similarity among those blocked editors. Most of them are just temporary accounts people use for the purpose of not revealing IP address. The accused user SNLE was indefinitely blocked only for sock puppet. I don't think sock puppet is justifiable for indefinitely block, as indicated in the Wikipedia Sock Puppet page. Anyway, I think the administor is too arbitrary in making his decision in case of shared IP address. I wonder if you could offer some help to solve this case or at least ask the administrator to stop blocking people on unjustified bases. Thanks. User68732 19:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

" This disambiguation page contains too many unnecessary misleading information. According to Wiki's policy, a disambiguation page should be a simple list of the relevant links that make readers easy to navigate. There is a standard disambiguation page at Chinese page, where Chinese people are properly disambiguated.

• Chinese people, people of Chinese ethnicity
  • Zhonghua minzu, the supra-ethnic Chinese nationality
  • Han Chinese, the dominant ethnic group in China
  • Ethnic minorities in China
  • Overseas Chinese

I think this pagre should look something like this. Poepl 15:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)"

Thank you for the interview

Jimmy, Thank you for the interview today. I look forward to talking with you again.Tony 02:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Question about St Petersburg

Just wondering why you decided to move yourself and Wikipedia to St Petersburg (rather than somewhere like Silicon Valley)? Thanks! Sparkzilla 16:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Question about your personal philosophy

Why do you think Wikipedia volunteers target on subject in a negative way and ignore hundreds of others of the same kind. For example, I've seen one school hammered mercilessly by volunteers, so much so that I have to feel that these are not impartial edits. They are rather edits by persons with some kind of agenda that has nothing to do with the goal of Wikipedia. roger, parent of a Linda Christas student (Forwarded by Linda Christas Help Desk: Policy 23:342) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jan Dovefeather (talk • contribs)

I also want to know why Wikipedia volunteers target on subject in a negative way. I also demand to know, Jimbo, if you are still beating your wife. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 19:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Question. Same topic

Today I am doing some research for my astronomy assignment. Jimmy, my school, Linda Christas has been beaten up by Wikipedia volunteers. I understand that Wikipedia volunteers have left lots of negative messages on the Advisory Committee's personal web sites, so much so that one of my favorites, Alison Jiear, resigned rather than put up with the harassment. I know this cannot be what you had intended, but my study buddies and I are very upset with this treatment. We want to be able to tell good stories about Wikipedia. I mean, rumor has it that your schools Jimmy are mentioned on your personal web site and linked. What are we, lepers? Could you look into this for us. Melissa (message forwarded by Linda Christas Help Desk)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jan Dovefeather (talk • contribs)

Question: I'm sure you are used to this kind of input

Dear Mr. Wales, I'm fairly certain that you are used to negative input on this page. However, that said, I just spoke with the Assistant Dean at Linda Christas, and many of the students here are upset that Alison Jiear resigned from the Linda Christas Advisory Committee after receiving negative messages on her personal site from folks claiming to be Wikipedia Volunteers "just verifying information." I suppose you could take the view that Ms. Jiear's resignation from the Committee is expensive evidence of Linda Christas' existence, but that resignation is actionable. It has caused the school substantial loss of reputation. There are many administrators in the private sector who go out of their way to use every venue they can to discourage a student-first approach to education. Given your penchant for independence, Mr. Wales, I would think that you would want to support a school such as Linda Christas. From what I gather they have been through the entire process at Wikipedia, but have no chance of success on an appeal because of the uneven treatment being given to LC by people who are seemingly out to disadvantage the school. Could we at least make an attempt to give Linda Christas some good press through Wikipedia. By good press, I am simply asking for a listing.Warren Baines, Attorney (forwarded by Linda Christas Help Desk: Policy 23:342 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oppieangel2000 (talk • contribs)