Talk:Lysander Spooner

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by CrypticIndividual1000 (talk | contribs) at 00:40, 1 April 2019 (→‎Spooner was not a socialist: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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destructive of what?

Spooner also argued that the war ... proved that the rights expressed in the Declaration of Independence no longer held true - the people could not "dissolve the political bands" that tie them to a government that "becomes destructive" of the consent of the governed ....

A relevant phrase in the Declaration is "whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends", i.e. the purposes (ends) for which governments are instituted, namely "to secure these Rights". Was it really Spooner's understanding that "these Ends" meant "the Consent of the Governed"? —Tamfang (talk) 06:26, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A Mistake in the article

The article states that "the Liberty Party, ... adopted [Spooner's The Unconstitutionality of Slavery] as an official text in its 1848 platform." However, the Liberty Party only mentions Spooner in their 1849 platform, and does not endorse the text as "official" but merely mentions it. http://alexpeak.com/twr/libertyparty/1849/#22 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.237.93 (talk) 01:42, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External links content to be put into article prose?

Audio books

Secondary sources

Comments

I added back FindAGrave, LibriVox and the bibliography which are standard in an external links section. The individual books should be sourced into the article. -- GreenC 18:45, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't realise that Find A Grave was standard so thank you for that. The LibriVox bibliography doesn't have extensive information so I didn't think it was particularly useful. I really appreciate someone taking the time to look at these External links, Thank you ツStacey (talk) 18:51, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sure no problem. LibriVox goes to a library of free audiobooks by or about Spooner. -- GreenC 18:57, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, pardon my unprofessionalism please and thank you. I'm not sure how to properly make edits but a small youtuber with 22k subs recently uploaded a video on Spooners wikipedia page. The video says it all and to me the evidence seems damning and it seems to me clear as day that there has been an unwarranted bias in favor of socialism here. Perhaps some nice people were fooled by the source material that was supposedly linked to this wikipedia page falsely supporting the notion that Spooner was a socialist. The linked article if you watch the video does not include the entire quotes instead cherry picking their examples even starting out quote with an ellipses, a red flag if I ever saw one. The full quote and reaction in video is as follows

"This supposition illustrates fairly the operation of usury laws, in depriving the mass of men of the fruits of their labor. These laws give a monopoly of the loanable capital to a few individuals. These individuals, having a monopoly of capital, are able to take advantage of the necessities of all those who have not capital of their own, and are forbidden to borrow any, on which to labor. They thus compel them to sell their labor at a price that will give their employer a large slice out of the products of their labor. The laws themselves are the contrivances, not of the retired rich men, who have capital to loan-for they, of course, wish to carry their money to the largest and freest market-but of those few “enterprising” “business men,” as they are called, who, in and out of legislatures, are more influential than either the rich or the poor; who control the legis-lation of the country, and who, by means of usury laws, can sponge money from those who are richer, and labor from those who are poorer than themselves-and thus make fortunes . And they are almost the only men who do make fortunes-for almost all fortunes are made out of the capital amid labor of othermen than those who realize them. Indeed, large fortunes could rarely be made at all by one individual, except by his sponging capital and labor from others. Amid the usury laws are the means by which he does it."

The article linked picks up about 70% through this paragraph at "-for almost all..." and youtuber Shane Killian says after reading the whole paragraph out loud "He is not in any way complaining about capitalism. He's complaining about usery laws. He's talking about government placing caps on interest rates which adversely effect the poor and working class by making it more difficult for them to get loans. The lower your income the greater the risk you are to a creditor especially if you don't have any credit history. So these usery laws effectively prevent the poor from having access to credit. He deliberately took out that first part of that paragraph. If he included so much as two sentences before it would have been obvious he was talking about usery laws because it was stated so directly. This cannot be an innocent mistake. Ian McSorsa is lying. His next few quotes is from other people making claims about what Spooner said which as we've already seen is not to be trusted. Use the words of Lysander Spooner or none at all."

I don't think his statement here ought to be remotely controversial. I am hoping that I have brought attention to this issue such that another more capable user can make the changes I wish to do effectively. The video is 20 minutes long but provides further insight on Lysander Spooner and his true anarcho-capitalist nature. If you wish to skip to the end of the video Shane Killian quotes Spooners Natural Law "Man, no doubt, owes many other moral duties to his fellow men; such as to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, care for the sick, protect the defenceless, assist the weak, and enlighten the ignorant. But these are simply moral duties, of which each man must be his own judge, in each particular case, as to whether, and how, and how far, he can, or will, perform them." This is taken as proof by Shane Killian that "Spooner absolutely believed in the NAP, the bedrock of anarcho-capitalism."

Sorry for pawning the workload on another but once you have finished the video and/or read his works and have the necessary information to make an informed decision I would like to see the following changes made. A, a sidebar places Spooner in "Part of a series on Socialism in the United States." Assuming there's a capitalism in the US equivalent I would like to see that replace this section. And B, I would like to see the same done on "Part of a series on Libertarian socialism" sidebar if an equivalent exists. Underneath, showing the list of anarchist tendencies when expanded does not include mention of anarcho-capitalism while mentioning many other forms of anarchism, I think because he is grouped in under the banner of libertarian socialism. I think it's a poor choice that anarcho-capitalism is not mentioned anywhere at all in this article despite him living before Rothbards time in light of his clearly market anarchist tendencies. Have a wonderful day everyone~ Anon5059 (talk) 03:32, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anon5059 (talk • contribs) 20:03, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Spooner was not a socialist

He was obviously not a socialist. Don't change history to fit your world views. CrypticIndividual1000 (talk) 00:40, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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