Talk:The Bible and homosexuality

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The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Revert

I reverted the recent change to the lede because it begs the question re: many debated passages, which the article discusses. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:28, 7 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are already 3 sections in this talk page called "revert". Please name the issue at the head of the section. Not always "revert". I don't know what you are talking about so I don't know what this section should be named.--SharabSalam (talk) 18:01, 7 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Boy

@76.216.121.9: I've reverted "boy" back to "male" in the Leviticus because if I recall correctly, a previous RFC established a consensus translation to use in this article. Also, I don't see "boy" in any of the other translations cited in the link. Are you perhaps misremembering? There's some thought that the prohibition stems from a cultural context of pederasty or of male sacred prostitution, but I'm not aware that it's specifically considered a translation issue with "boy". –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Middat Sedom

I don't have time to add this now, but here's a useful reference on middat Sedom or Sodom-like conduct in the Talmud. In general, the Sodom and Gomorrah article has some clarifications about the Jewish position historically that may be useful here. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:39, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But actually

I've removed the Creech section. We discuss the "arsenokoites" situation extensively in the article and it is not at all as unambiguous as the addition claimed. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:44, 23 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Traditionalist"

I've removed "traditionalist" from These two verses have historically been interpreted by Traditionalist Jews and Christians as clear overall prohibitions against homosexual acts in general. The semantic value added by "traditionalist" is already added by "historically" - we're not suggesting that the interpretation was objectively correct and eternally valid, only that this is how it has generally been read. If there are significant historical examples of non-traditionalist movements interpreting the verse in other ways, we can discuss that. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with the removal (granted, I'm the one who inserted "Traditionalist" to begin with). The current wording gives the impression that All Christians and Jews view homosexuality and the bible in that same way, and that's simply not true, that's why I inserted the word "Traditional" (as opposed to "inclusionists"). However, I was bold, you reverted, now it get's discussed. I Support adding "traditional into the sentence as it appears in my revert, what do the rest of you say? Necromonger...We keep what we kill 18:00, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the current wording does give that impression. It says that this has been the historical interpretation of the verse, which I think it would be hard to contradict. Beyond what we already include in the article about how recent interpretation has emphasized the historical context of the verse as distinguishing Israelites from their idolatrous neighbors, what is it that you feel is missing? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:42, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rfc on inclusion of the word "traditional" or not

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This rfc is being opened to attract more discussion on the following subject and to gain consensus one way or the other:

The second sentence in the article currently reads:

"These two verses have historically been interpreted by Jews and Christians as clear overall prohibitions against homosexual acts in general."

I propose to insert word "Traditionalist" so that the sentence reads:

"These two verses have historically been interpreted by Traditionalist Jews and Christians as clear overall prohibitions against homosexual acts in general."

I propose to make this change because:

1.) Since not all Christians support this interpretation, it would make the wording more accurate, as the current wording, IMHO makes it look like all Christians support that interpretation.

2.) There is no source being used to support the current sentence as it stands.

I have attempted to add the word "Traditionalist" once, Roscelese doesn't support this and has removed it, as is her right. We started a discussion, and so far it's been only her and I. So I now welcome more eyes and hands to this discussion. What do you think ? Necromonger...We keep what we kill 14:33, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I don't believe that the current wording, with "historically", gives the impression that all Christians support this interpretation, and adding "traditionalist" is implying that throughout history, "non-traditionalist" movements have interpreted the verse in other ways, which I think would be difficult to support. See the rest of my argument further up the talk page. It would take 2 seconds to support the claim that historically, this verse has been interpreted as a prohibition on homosexuality, if indeed a suitable source isn't already in the article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:36, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would oppose the addition of "traditionalist" per Roscelese above. However, I do agree that the current wording is problematic without a source, and may even be inaccurate. A few minutes of reading other relevant articles on Wikipedia led me to find that Initially, canons against sodomy were aimed at ensuring clerical or monastic discipline, and were only widened in the medieval period to include laymen. in History_of_the_Catholic_Church_and_homosexuality#Early_Church_Councils and that lesbianism is not explicitly prohibited in the Bible in Homosexuality in Judaism. While a more thorough review of relevant literature would probably find that interpretations of these verses as being prohibitions on homosexual activity were the norm historically, it seems a stretch to say that these verses were interpreted as "clear overall" prohibitions, since exceptions to their clarity and overall-ness are attested by reliable sources. I would thus propose that we change the at-issue text to read These two verses have historically been interpreted by Jews and Christians as prohibitions against homosexual acts in general.

That having been said, while I'm proposing this as a short term improvement and compromise, even this solution may be inaccurate, particularly w/r/t Jewish attitudes for the following reasons:

It's not clear that Jewish prohibitions against lesbian acts stem from this verse; they are most directly taken from the Talmud, and it's unclear if the rabbis of the Talmud were using these verses as the basis of their rulings
Describing Jewish prohibitions as being against homosexual acts in general may be inaccurate. The text in Homosexuality in Judaism currently suggests that while intercourse was prohibited, attraction was not, which means that homosexual acts short of intercourse may have been considered permissible.

Thus, until proper sources are provided, it may be best to rewrite the sentence to read These two verses have historically been interpreted by Christians as overall prohibitions against homosexual acts in general. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:41, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- @Rosguill: I would be fine with removing "clear overall", and also with substituting "traditionally" for "historically" if that would address any of WKWWK's concerns. Now that you bring it up, it may in fact be worth noting male homosexuality in our sentence, or addressing some of these other concerns - I was mostly, as I said, concerned by implying things that were incorrect through the use of "traditionalist". Like I said, the current wording does not state or imply, imo, that no Christians interpret the verse differently or accept gay people. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:01, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Roscelese. St Anselm (talk) 19:58, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Roscelese. Mathglot (talk) 01:27, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: @Wekeepwhatwekill:, this Rfc was premature, in my opinion. I realize you are a new user (welcome to Wikipedia!), but do have a look at WP:RFCBEFORE next time, before jumping straight to the Rfc process after only a brief discussion. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:27, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Thanks to those who have contributed their considerable scholarship to various aspects of this issue! One clear problem would be capitalizing "Traditionalist" since there's no formal group so designated in these faiths. But basically, the article shows the complexity of the issue and any such simplification in the lede would be unhelpful. Jzsj (talk) 11:19, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. While I sympathise with Wekeepwhatwekill regarding the perhaps overly broad nature of the statement, the use of a capitalised "Traditionalist" label is poorly defined, not particularly neutral and generally unhelpful. I would support the use of more neutral words like "many" or "most" instead of "Traditionalist" to qualify the statement (ideally with a reliable source to support it). While it is not the question of this RFC, I also support the removal of the phrase "clear overall" from the statement as per Rosguill's suggestion. Finally, @Wekeepwhatwekill: I agree with Mathglot that there was insufficient discussion prior to raising this RFC. 203.10.55.11 (talk) 23:03, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]