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January 22

The second o in control

Although the second o in the word control is long, why is the l doubled in the form controlling?? Georgia guy (talk) 02:09, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In American English because the stress is on that syllable. Jmar67 (talk) 02:30, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So that it rhymes with "extol(l)ing"? But you've got me interested: Although a single "?" at the end of a sentence suffices to indicate that the sentence is a question, why do you double it? -- Hoary (talk) 02:35, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The word "extol" also has a long o. Words with long o normally don't double the final consonant before adding -ing. Words with a short o normally do. Georgia guy (talk) 02:37, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here you are again, trying to make sense out of English. Anyway, here's the etymology of "control"[1] and "extol".[2] Note that both of them come from words with double-l. And also note that it's "extolling". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:46, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At least in AE, the stress rule takes precedence. Elsewhere such a consonant is generally doubled (e.g., "travelling", AE: "traveling"). Jmar67 (talk) 03:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For me (Southern England, now Northern England), both control and extol have "short" /-ɒl/, not "long" /-əʊl/, so the double l makes perfect sense; though I know that is not true for everybody. --ColinFine (talk) 10:28, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Georgia guy: I don't know how many times we can explain this to you, so we'll explain it again. English is not consistent. No natural language is consistent, but English is especially noted (especially in its orthography) for being inconsistent. There are some general rules, but every rule has so many exceptions that learning to read and write English is often an exercise in just memorizing specific words and how they are spelled, as any rule you can come up with has so many exceptions. You keep asking questions like "XXXX is a rule in English, so why does YYYY not obey that rule". If you spent any considerable amount of time around English, you quickly begin to learn that there often are not any useful reasons to explain why. I have previously linked you to several videos and articles on this very concept. Please go back, read those, and understand why your repeated questions in this vein rarely lead to simple or satisfying answers. --Jayron 32 13:04, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Remember, this is a language where the words rough, plough, through, though, cough, and thought do not rhyme, but pony and bologna do. A language where you drive on a parkway and park on a driveway. Where all my belongings were burned up when my house burned down. After which I had to fill out a form by filling it in so that I could turn it in to my insurance company. Quit trying to make sense of it. --Khajidha (talk) 15:28, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

“Why do we park on driveways and drive on parkways? Just to be silly!” –George Carlin 2606:A000:1126:28D:B10C:26A0:A0FF:5576 (talk) 01:16, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And, in keeping with this madness, not all of the above applies to all variants of English in the same way. In British English pony and bologna don't rhyme, but parkways are railway stations, and downs are the highest points of some areas of the country. Bazza (talk) 15:47, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, a driveway is essentially a short (or possibly long, if you are rich enough) private road leading to a house or garage, so you do drive on it, just not very far. Iapetus (talk) 09:57, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The question is rather dispiriting, but some of the ingredients of some of the (non-) responses are too, and none more than the advice to "Quit trying to make sense of" (apparent oddities in?) English. Trying to make sense of apparent paradoxes in English seems an honourable enterprise to me. The problem is of how you go about this, and what your premises and expectations are. Also, I'm puzzled by the way in which a small number of people repeatedly ask questions about English without making it clear that they've digested, or attempted to digest, the relevant parts of relevant books. Duckduckgoing quickly turns up Edward Carney, A Survey of English Spelling; D W Cummings, American English Spelling: An Informal Description; Greg Brooks, Dictionary of the British English Spelling System; and more. -- Hoary (talk) 02:57, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 25

Translation of Chinese from Alchemical Source

The following comes from the Yellow Court Classic. I'm reading about alchemy in English sources, but I'm not sure how to translate the following: "至道不煩無旁午，靈臺通天臨中野，方寸之中至關下，玉房之中神門戶，皆是公子教我者." I know in the context of alchemical literature, 靈臺 refers to the heart-mind and 方寸, while sometimes referring to the heart-mind, likely refers to the lowest of three dantiens where the mind is focused. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:40, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish dialects

Is "Feliz Navidad" pronounced differently in Spanish from Spain, than in US Spanish? Particularly with regard to the dropped consonant at the end of Navidad in the US version, and similarly in other such words. Are the dialects as far apart as, say, Québécois French vs French from France? Thanks. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:4FFF (talk) 21:14, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In general, it would be pronounced /feˈliθ naβiˈðað/ in most of Spain and /feˈlis naβiˈðað/ in most Western Hemisphere dialects, the main difference being the "z" in "feliz" which is /θ/ in most of Spain and /s/ in the Americas. The /θ/ (in Spain) in that position could be slightly voiced in rapid speech. Also, in many dialects of American Spanish, final "s" may sound like English "h" or disappear altogether in casual speech. See Spanish phonology for more details. Just as an FYI, "US Spanish" is not monolithic; there are many dialects of Spanish spoken in the US including Mexican Spanish and Caribbean Spanish among others (see Spanish language in the United States#Spanish sub-types for more). There are also many dialects of Spanish spoken within Spain. Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "dropped consonant at the end of Navidad"? Both "d"s in "Navidad" are pronounced as [ð] (an English voiced "th" sound as in "the").--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 00:46, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking of a sound like "Feliz Navidahhh", e.g. in José Feliciano's song. I can't access youtube to listen to it right now but it is there. I didn't realize there was that much difference between North American Spanish dialects but looking at the articles, I guess there is. Thanks. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:4FFF (talk) 03:49, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In an English word like "granddad", the final "d" is pronounced as a stop with an audible release. The final "d" of Spanish "Navidad" is a dental approximant; there is no release. Although closely resembling the soft phoneme /ð/ of English, a dental fricative, its place of articulation is different, making it softer. Also, in American English, the voiced /ð/ is rarely heard word-final, and only before a following vowel. This may explain why this phoneme, not occurring so softly in English and not at all in this position in American English, can appear to have been dropped. Native Spanish speakers on either side of the Atlantic will have no problem hearing it. --Lambiam 18:11, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean a sound like the "th" in bathe or lathe? Hmm ok. When I described a dropped d, I didn't mean completely eliminated, but maybe shortened like the "u" in "ohio gozaimasu" if that makes any sense. I'll listen to the Feliciano track again when I can use an audio player soon. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 22:35, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 26

Do the words miner and myna have any realation.

Background: I live in Sydney, Australia, where the endemic noise miner, and the imported Indian myna both serve as irritating alarm clocks, until today I thought that both species were "miners".

I'm just wondering if the two names are related, or are these birds as different as night and day.

Thanks --TheTomorrow (talk) 08:51, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Our article on Manorina says that "The name "miner" derives from a mid 19th century re-spelling of the Hindi name "myna", which they resemble, but was not formally adopted until the early 20th century" (with a source). Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:08, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the Australian miners are not anything like closely related to the Mynas which are members of "the starling family (Sturnidae)... native to southern Asia, especially India, Pakistan and Bangladesh", they have just borrowed the name. In much the same way, the Australian magpie is only very distantly related to the Eurasian magpie. This is why we need Latin binomial nomenclature. Alansplodge (talk) 17:21, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]