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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bharatiya29 (talk | contribs) at 20:34, 29 February 2020 (Top importance doesn't make any sense for this article). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Clean Chit to Sadhvi Pragya and Indresh Kumar by NIA

http://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/ajmer-blast-case-nia-files-closure-report-against-sadhvi-pragya-and-indresh-kumar/614070/

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/nia-clears-sadhvi-pragya-thakur-indresh-kumar-of-ajmer-dargah-blast/story-Wd5MsSz3Lq5knsBJ4cLBGP.html

http://www.news18.com/news/india/ajmer-blast-case-nia-files-closure-report-clean-chit-to-sadhvi-pragya-1367820.html

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/nia-closes-ajmer-case-against-sadhvi-pragya-indresh-kumar-4598327/

Requested move 17 January 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Saffron terror → Hindu nationalist terrorism – The suggested term is more self-descriptive. It is also more neutral, since it is more specific: it speaks not about all Hindus, but specifically about Hindu nationalists. . Compare "Nationalist terrorism", Jewish religious terrorism , etc.The use of the neologism may be explained in a separate section. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:50, 17 January 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 21:41, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think that will solve all issues, as citations use different names, like hindutva and hindu nationalist terrorism mostly rather than Saffron Terrorism. Dey subrata (talk) 18:58, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Staszek Lem, Please open the discussion at WP:RMCD. I don't find any discussion of the move there. Dey subrata (talk) 19:03, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The bot will do that automatically. El_C 19:04, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd prefer the term "Hindutva terrorism"; "Hindu nationalism" and "Hindutva" are used virtually interchangeably today, but that wasn't always the case, and if the page is discussing contemporary incidents then we ought to avoid confusion by using the more specific term. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:20, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • And I'd prefer a more generic term. The usage of the term "Hindutva" is just as controversial as "saffron". Staszek Lem (talk) 19:40, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Controversy is not a reason not to use a title. Hindu nationalism is just as controversial, as I've said, because in contemporary sources it is used to mean the same thing. However, other things are also referred to as Hindu nationalism, and you would be opening the door to all sorts of coatracking. Furthermore, the problem with the term "Saffron terror" was not that it was controversial, it's that it is something of a neologism. We were giving credence to a term not widely used in the sources. "Hindutva" is widely used in scholarly sources to describe the ideology that these incidents are described as being motivated by. As such, there's no issues with it's usage. If you're not interested in modifying the proposal, it's going to be an oppose from me. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:57, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Staszek Lem and Vanamonde93, I think we should go with "Hindutva terrorism", is the best fitted for the name, Hindutva is the origin of Hindu nationalism, Hindutva mainly and express more about the ethnic nationalism, it (mostly political and little bit of social) gives the core ideology of violence where as hindu nationalism consists of social, political and cultural thoughts also. So better we use "Hindutva Terrorism". I think you just need to change the name from the requested move. I support move for Hindutva Terrorism. Dey subrata (talk) 00:12, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • No Hindutva is not the origin of Hindu nationalism. However I am leaning to accept your arguments in favor of "Hindutva terrorism". Staszek Lem (talk) 00:58, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well its indeed the foundation (the present form, the pseudo thoughts), Savarkar gave the concept on hindutva and is first concept which gave the present form of Hindu nationalism not that what its written in Hindu nationalism#History, those great personalities (most of them) were Hindu reformers and patriotic not nationalist. Irony is mentions of Gandhi, S.C Bose, Vivekanda, Tilak, Aurobindo Ghosh is there, rofl. That section is a serious joke. Savarkar's Hindutva: Who Is a Hindu?, Six Glorious Epochs of Indian History and Golwalkar's Bunch of Thoughts gave ideas of present form of Hindu nationalism. Dey subrata (talk) 02:32, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So far there are 3 potential votes for an alternative suggestion for the title, "Hindutva terrorism" Let us see other opinions. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:58, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Same high quality source 1 says Hindutva terrorism, along with that other reliable sources too, Indiatoday, The Hindu Businessline AlJazeera says Hindutva or Hindu nationalist terrorism. Dey subrata (talk) 18:11, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just use Hindu Terrorism or Hindu Terror, since Hindutva includes all Indian religions not just Hinduism or have consensus that any "acts of violence motivated by Hindu nationalism" can be included under the present title Saffron Terror. Panda619 (talk) 16:55, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is no Muslim terrorism, but Islamic terrorism, no religion spread violence, but pseudo concept, as Hindutva concept spread violence not Hindu/Hinduism, thus Hindutva terrorism or Hindu nationalist terrorism is more justified an daccurate. Dey subrata (talk) 17:01, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dey subrata, I'll recommend you to abstain from WP:OR. You may believe Hindutva to be a "pseudo concept" or a cause of violence, but your personal opinion is of no significance unless it is backed by reliable neutral sources. Bharatiya29 17:53, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Read what I said, before commenting. I said, Hindu terrorism is pseudo concept. Don't just copy someone else comment and put it here. And saffron terror is not popular, all reliable sources call either Hindutva or Hindu nationalist terrorism.Dey subrata (talk) 17:58, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's called quoting, not copying. Bharatiya29 19:07, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose As per WP:COMMONNAME. A lot of the arguments in support of the move as a clear case of WP:OR. Wikipedia doesn't rely on an editor's opinion on Hindutva; it relies on reliable neutral sources. "Hindu terrorism" is also a neologism, so it's better to go with "Saffron terror" which is a more popular variant due to Chidambaram, and the scope of the article should be kept limited to the term usage and criticism. Bharatiya29 17:53, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Here what sources says- Indiatoday, The Hindu Businessline AlJazeera 4. All says it as Hindutva terrorism or Hindu nationalist terrorism. Dey subrata (talk) 18:06, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Googling "saffron terror" gives 3x more results than "hindutva terrorism". Just cherry-picking some sources doesn't prove that the former is a more popular term. Bharatiya29 19:07, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That could be because it is an older term and so has more accumulated occurrences over the years. The Google ngram viewer, which doesn't seem to have either "saffron terror" or "hindutva terror" in its database, shows that the related terms "saffron party" and "saffronisation" are definitely going down in usage. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:44, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We should look at the overall term usage rather than the recent trends. And "saffron party" and "saffronisation" are completely different topics. First one is probably a slang for BJP, and the second one was an allegation on the Vajpayee govt regarding the changes made in the NCERT textbooks (no surprise its usage has gone down because that thing happened more than a decade ago). Bharatiya29 14:28, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite align with WP:RECOGNIZABILITY and WP:CONSISTENT as described by Kautilya3 above also about the recent term, its an old term and article have been there for several years, saffron terror makes it confuse as the saffron used by 4 major religions and hindutva makes it very precise too. WP:UCRN says "some topics have multiple names... such names will usually best fit the five criteria", must go according to WP:CONCISE too. Dey subrata (talk) 18:31, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not helpful since we are not allowed to create titles per our wishes but what meets WP:TITLE. This topic lacks any other name than 'saffron terror'. ML 911 05:14, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Dey subrata: Your comment is a borderline case of WP:OR. Your point, about "saffron terror" not being precise enough, can be added to the criticism section (if backed by some reliable source), but it is not a valid reason to move the article. Your comment also reflects a poor understanding of the article topic itself. The article covers the neologism used to refer to the controversial topic of "Hindu terrorism", but not "Hindu terrorism" itself. Hence the point regarding multiple names doesn't even apply here. Bharatiya29 20:49, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - from the above discussion and a quick Google, it seems that the current name is the most common one for this phenomenon, and it's also precise (Hindu terrorism could refer to a wider variety of topics). Seems best to stick with the status quo.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:46, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A Message to the "neutral" Wikipedia editors

I have added this discussion merely in order to gain the attention of the so called "neutral" Wikipedia editors. I wanted to let them know that this Wikipedia article is not being edited from a "neutral" point of view. If this discussion page is against the policies of Wikipedia, then please either remove it or kindly let me know. Thank you. Digidanby (talk) 03:38, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please give specific examples rather than blanket statements such as "this Wikipedia article is not being edited from a "neutral" point of view". Thanks.--I am not a Seahorse (talk) 04:54, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delhi Police allegations

Bharatiya29 Your recent edit shows you are simple violating WP:NPOV. This and this one, both shows your are using and adding your own opinion and version here. His father clearly said, "We did not join the AAP. Till 2012, I was in the BSP (Bahujan Samaj Party), after that my health deteriorated and I left politics. When Lok sabha election was about to take place, these people (AAP) came and we did it (wore the cap) for fun. This time, I even garlanded the BJP candidate. I’m not connected to politics".The Hindu Original video of his father and brother.The Quint His brother clearly said, they wear it because the is an act of respect to them by the party not any membership. There is no membership given. Now tell me in your reply through edit summary, you pointed this "I avoided it for being WP:UNDUE because then mentioning his father's association with the BSP" which is his past association but fail to mention the present association "This time, I even garlanded the BJP candidate.". This allegations are baseless and need not to be mentioned as the subject matter is about violence and there is no evidence if AAP or BJP is behind this. Dey subrata (talk) 22:55, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to bring Kautilya3, El C, MarnetteD, Staszek Lem, Vanamonde93 to this matter, what do you people think of it. Dey subrata (talk) 22:58, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. The Delhi Police is hardly a reliable source. The allegation should be removed. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:07, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, this section itself should not be added until the scope of this article is clearly defined. As long as this section is present, any counter-claim disputing its association with "Hindu fundamentalism" has to be mentioned to present the whole picture. Now if you want to add a counter-counter-claim by the family members, feel free to do so. Anyway, just presenting the one side of the story is inappropriate. Bharatiya29 12:19, 7 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Delhi police are not a reliable source, and membership in any party is not mutually exclusive with any ideology. Portraying the shooter's (supposed) membership in the AAP as somehow contradicting the rest of the paragraph is both original research and an NPOV violation. I've removed the text in question. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:40, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not worse than the existence of that recently added WP:NOTNEWS section on this page, given the lack of conclusion by the sources themselves that this had anything to do with "saffron terror". I just removed the OR done since February 3.  ML 911 05:22, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Saffron terror is violence motivated by Hindu nationalism, and the lead to clearly says so, WP:NOTNEWS is not valid here as the incidents are motivated by Hindu nationalism. Dey subrata (talk) 05:31, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You agree that sources lacked mention of "Saffron terror" which is certainly enough to disqualify this incident. We cannot add everything that was motivated by 'Hindu nationalism'. Reliable sources contradict each other right now even if Hindu nationalism was involved and that's why you will have to wait but keep this problematic section removed for now. D4iNa4 (talk) 08:32, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hindutva terror

Should we change the name of this page as "Hindutva terror" as it is more widely accepted term and fits more instead of saffron.

The hindutva terrorism is more widely accepted and incidents are reported in these terms only. It will be good if we change it. Edward Zigma (talk) 07:14, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the move. Crawford88 (talk) 05:27, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The subject of this article is the term "Saffron terror" itself. Hence I oppose any sort of move. Instead the article should be cleaned up to resolve the made-up confusion about its scope. Bharatiya29 06:51, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Scope of the article

The recently concluded move request has made it clear that the general consensus is to keep the scope of this article limited to the neologism "Saffron Terror", and not the propaganda/concept/phenomenon (or whatever one may call it) of Hindu/Hinduism/Hindutva terrorism. In light of this, an effort needs to be made to include only those events in the "Incidents" section which have been clearly termed as "Saffron terror" by a significant section of neutral reliable sources. This will obviously result in the removal of a major chunk of this troublesome section. As of now, only the first section, i.e. "1999 killing of Graham Staines" has an explicit reference to a source linking it to the term, meaning that the other sections need to be removed if a similar source is not provided for them. Even then, the question of whether a single source is significant enough to warrant a section here crops up. However, that is a different debate for the future. Bharatiya29 20:30, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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