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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Adamdaley (talk | contribs) at 06:22, 9 June 2020 (Cleanup.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

NPOV edits

removed controversial - I don't know of any current Chinese group that thinks badly of Zhang Xueliang.

Also this article needs a lot of NPOV work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadrunner (talk • contribs)

I did some NPOV work. I removed a lot of material on Chiang Kaishek's actions during WWII since these weren't that relevant to Zhang Xueliang, and also gets into the highly controversial question of who was more "patriotic" against the Japanese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadrunner (talk • contribs)

Pinyin or W-G

Noting his English name and the fact that he spent a good part of his life in Taiwan, I think Mr. Zhang personally went by "Chang Hsueh-liang" instead of Zhang Xueliang. The pinyin is more popular on google though. Which one should we use? --Jiang 08:48, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I did and no one answered. Why pinyin? The People's Daily used W-G [1] and we use pinyin. How ironic! And Columbia [2], Britannica [3], Encarta [4] all use his WG name. --Jiang | Talk 06:13, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Let's think of remaing to Wade-Giles. Pinyin is from Communist China and I do not consider it proper for his name.--Jusjih 00:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pingyin for sure and Pingyin Only. Wade-Giles is an English simplification of Chinese pronounciation and it shall not be used as a standard.

Neither system gives the casual English-speaking reader an accurate idea of the Chinese pronunciation. But Wade-Giles is widely said to be the better in that respect. Pinyin has become the standard for many purposes because it has the endorsement of the Chinese government. It may give a more accurate idea of pronunciation to the student who has learned its rules, but these are elaborate and counterintuitive. For major historical figures, in historical books and articles, is it not best to use the spellings in use at that time? All the books I have seen use the spelling Chang Hsueh-liang and none use Zhang Xueliang. All the writings - memoirs and autobiographies and journalism and government documents - of people of that time use Wade-Giles. It seems bizarre to use a spelling not even devised at that time. Alrees

It was the contemporary spelling (since pinyin did not yet exist) and is normal in English. Independently of later politics, this article really should be moved. Both should be used in the article. (Pinyin is as simplistic as WG; both require explanation for people who only speak English.) Septentrionalis 17:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chang or Zhang

This article uses both spellings. We should probably stick to one to avoid confusion

Right, but we better confirm whether to use Wade-Giles or Pinyin. I do not consider Pinyin appropriate for his name here.--Jusjih 00:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Chang resides in the United States after released by Chiang Kai Shek. What was his name written like when he was in the US? — Instantnood 20:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is a bit crazy to pinyinise every Chinese subjects. This article ought not be pinyinised. 1) Chang is not an ancient figure like Han's emperors. He do have his romanised name with him and he know about it. 2) At Chang's time, it is exclusively using Wade-Giles. If a researcher looks for articles about him from English newspaper at that time, it must be in Chang, not Zhang. The act rewriting others' names is somehow like rewriting the history. — HenryLi (Talk) 21:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Age

According to the article's birth and death dates, Zhang was 100 when he died yet the article says 101. Which part is incorrect?

TJSwoboda 07:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

that latter is probably his Chinese age. According to Chinese ages, people are born at age one and add a new age at the passing of the new year.--Jiang 11:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zhang Xueliang vs Yang Hucheng

Any idea why Chiang Kai-shek spared Zhang Xueliang, but had Yang Hucheng killed? I couldn't figure why Chiang had different reactions to the both of them. Constrainer 20:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zhang was a good friend of CHiang, and a much more influential figure in the ranks of the Nationalist army.

Chiang was very similar to Mao. Chiang crippled the KMT from the inside in a paranoid effort to maintain power after the Xi'an Incident (that is, too early), but Mao waited until he firmly controlled China (the mid-1950s) before crippling the CCP from the inside in paranoid efforts to maintain power. Chiang had numerous generals executed after 1938 because he was paranoid about his officers' loyalty; he knew that Zhang was no threat to him under house arrest, so there was no reason to have him killed.Ferox Seneca (talk) 02:54, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relations to Mao Zedong

I think this article reflects little over the significant impact The Young Marshal had on Mao Zedongs rise to power. Maybe something should be added?

No, he was a good friend of Zhou Enlai, but had no connection with Mao. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.251.211.44 (talk) 01:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 20 September 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus not to move, therefore, not moved (closed by non-admin page mover) Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 06:33, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Zhang Xueliang → Chang Hsueh-liang – The WG spelling of his name should be used, as others have mentioned above. It's simply how his name has always been spelled -- it is the result of both his place and time, and there's no reason or precedent for changing the WG spelling of such a figure's name to its pinyin equivalent. 60.248.185.19 (talk) 03:01, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Uh, no. The "others" above are from 2006; historiography are always evolving, and Wade-Giles is gradually being phased out in academic publishings relating to modern Chinese history. There is plenty of precedent that I won't be going into details; a simple indicator would be to compare the search result of "Zhang Xueliang" and "Chang Hsueh-liang" (with quotation marks) in both Google News and Google Books; the news result is self-explanatory; for the book results, compare the years published and a conclusion can be made easily. This RM should be closed. Alex Shih (talk) 09:03, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:PINYIN. Pinyin has replaced Wade-Giles as the standard Chinese romanization scheme since the 1980s (ISO 7098). More modern sources use Zhang Xueliang, the pinyin spelling. See NGRAM. -Zanhe (talk) 19:30, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment from proposer: Pinyin is the default Romanization for mainland Chinese-related terms and names. Pinyin is not used for primarily Taiwan-related names; look at literally any Wiki article for a Taiwanese person (e.g., Tsai Ing-wen) -- their preferred spelling is used, and this is almost always WG. Furthermore, Pinyin is not applied retroactively, as indicated in the very page linked above ("English Wikipedia uses pinyin as the default Romanisation method for Chinese characters, except where a non-pinyin form of a word is used by modern reliable secondary sources. An example of this exception is Yangtze River.") If you believe you're correct, then why haven't you changed Chiang Kai-shek to Jiang Zhongzheng?60.248.185.19 (talk) 00:27, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Chiang Kai-shek is one of the non-standard spellings that are widely used in English, same as Yangtze. And yes, new standards are applied retroactively, otherwise we wouldn't have names like Qin Shi Huang. And see Ngram above for the "retroactive" use of Zhang Xueliang in English publications. -Zanhe (talk) 03:25, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To complete the thought, if you have been living in Taiwan, you would have noticed that Pinyin have long been replacing Wades-Giles, see our article on Tongyong Pinyin and the part about "Ministry of Education's approval of Hanyu Pinyin on September 16, 2008" as official romanisation. For instance, my birthplace used to be Hsichih in majority of the sources, but recently most sources will "retroactively" use Xizhi instead. This was a political and ideological issue for the Taiwanese administration, see this source. For names that are primarily related to Taiwan, Wade-Giles continues to be used as the standard, but that is not the case here for Zhang Xueliang. This is not about "believing" one's correct; we have naming conventions for a reason. Alex Shih (talk) 14:25, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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