Jump to content

Talk:Ukraine

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Gatesnaze (talk | contribs) at 12:56, 25 July 2020 (→‎Danloud). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Outline of knowledge coverage

Former good articleUkraine was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 12, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
December 21, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
January 26, 2008Good article nomineeListed
July 12, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
August 8, 2008Featured article candidateNot promoted
July 30, 2013Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Template:Vital article

If you are here to discuss Kiev vs. Kyiv please click here

Ukraine partially located in Central Europe

I propose to make changes in definition of Ukraine as an "Eastern European country" into a "country which is partially located in Central and partially in Eastern Europe". The reasons: Western Ukraine was part of a Habsburg Empire for hundreds of years with subsequent cultural influence. Otto Von Habsburg claimed himself that not only Western Ukraine, but entire Ukraine belongs to Central Europe. https://books.google.ca/books?id=-IWjGh3u5iEC&pg=PA293&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=true In 1887, geographers from the Austro-Hungarian Empire set up a historical marker and a large stone in what is today a part of Ukraine, believed to mark the geographic centre of Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_midpoint_of_Europe#Austria-Hungary I think to deny any historical and geographical relation of Ukraine or some parts of Ukraine to Central Europe is just ignorant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.222.146.79 (talk) 19:08, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Otto von Habsburg was not a geographer, so how can his personal opinion be used in matter regarding geography? Also "Central Europe" is not one and the same as "the centre of Europe". Ukraine does have historical ties to central Europe, but I would not say that makes it a central european nation any more than Belgium which also has ties to the Habsburg empire. Andro611 (talk) 21:09, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maidan = square

As noted here: "The Euromaidan (Ukrainian: Євромайдан, literally "Eurosquare")" "maidan" is Ukrainian for the English "square."

Hence, "Maidan Nezalezhnosti square" later on belongs in the Department of Redundancy Department. It should read "Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Nezalezhnosti square)." I didn't notice if that mistake was made other places, but it should be corrected. Thanks.

Minor: link to Wikipedia Podzol page in soil section.

In the soil section podzolized soil is mentioned. Might it not be reasonable to link podzolized to the Podzol Wikipedia page as it is an obscure reference.

Covid-19 section uses "the Ukraine"

In contrast with the rest of the article, the Covid-19 section utilizes the outdated "The Ukraine" nomenclature all throughout. Someone please change. See the beginning of the article: Before its independence, Ukraine was typically referred to in English as "The Ukraine", but most sources have since moved to drop "the" from the name of Ukraine in all uses.[11] Berehinia (talk) 05:04, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Also fixed a few "Kyiv"s. The section needs a grammar edit, though.--Khajidha (talk) 14:29, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Khajidha. Wish I had the priveleges to fix the spelling. There's a few more Kievs in there :) Berehinia (talk) 05:03, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly why you can't do it. "Kiev" doesn't need fixing. --Khajidha (talk) 10:14, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 April 2020

Closed per moratorium until 1 July 2020 on Kiev>Kyiv name change discussions. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 03:39, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Kyiv instead of Kiev 82.71.51.60 (talk) 09:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: This is the exact reason why this page is under Sanctions by the Arbitration comitee. See WP:ARBEE for more information on this desicion. Victor Schmidt (talk) 09:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I must be missing something here coz the national language of Ukraine is Ukrainian and the official name of the capital is Kyiv. The Ukrainian government adopted Kyiv as its standard Latinisation in 1995, making Kyiv mandatory for use in legislative and official acts. What sort of discussion can anyone have about this, let alone arbitration? Berehinia (talk) 05:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

None of which is important because English language usage is not subject to Ukrainian law. --Khajidha (talk) 10:16, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree if it was about the spelling. However, those are the two names in two different languages. Kiev is an English translation of the Russian name of what once was a city in the Soviet Union where Russian was the de facto state language. Kyiv is an English translation of a Ukrainian name of the city in the independent state of Ukraine. Berehinia (talk) 03:10, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As per legend Kyiv was established by the 3 brothers and a sister, Kyi, Shchek and Khoryv. Kyiv is named after Kyi. Berehinia (talk) 03:19, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First, Kiev is not Russian. It is the English form of the name, as proven by centuries of usage. Second, even if those legendary brothers existed, they would have lived before the Ukrainian language developed (let alone the Cyrillic alphabet). The fact that one of their names is currently spelled "Kyi" in Ukrainian is of no importance. --Khajidha (talk) 03:33, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Like Warsaw, Copenhagen, Prague, and even Moscow, the English names of these cities do not match the native names. Kiev is the English name of Ukraine's capital. It has nothing to do with Russian. It is the most commonly used name for Ukraine's capital in English usage. That's all that matters. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 03:36, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 May 2020

In the "president, parliament and government" section, someone forgot to change the name of the prime minister from Oleksiy Honcharuk to Denys Shmyhal. Can anyone fix this for me, please? Thanks! DoanVN (talk) 11:28, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done - Thanks for catching the mistake! — Tartan357  (Talk) 23:02, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Number of inhabitants

Why is the number of inhabitants for Ukraine marked "without Crimea", while the page Russia has two lines, "including" and "excluding" Crimea.

I feel a neutral position would be to have two lines, "including" and "excluding" Crimea, like Russia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indy75 (talk • contribs) 19:43, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How would you go about doing that? There's no data for the current population of "Crimea-as-part-of-Ukraine". The only data on Crimea's current population is based on the people living there post-annexation. There is no way to know how many of them would be living there if it were still under Ukrainian control. --Khajidha (talk) 02:20, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the point is that the Russia page should only have one figure as well - the 'including Crimea' one, as that was what was covered by the census. Birtig (talk) 11:25, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Misrepresentation of source information in introduction

This statement in the introduction struck me as blatantly false, and surely enough the linked sources don't support it either: "At US$40, it has the lowest median wealth per adult in the world,[note 1][15]" According to the linked source, Sierra Leone has the least median wealth per adult in the world, which makes a ton more sense. I can't edit the article because the clown above got it semi-protected, but this matter should get resolved. 216.58.117.162 (talk) 23:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, there is no source for saying it has a "very high poverty rate", although this is true as far as I can tell relative to other countries at similar levels of development. The statement is also somewhat weasel-y because it does not define poverty as absolute or relative or give any kind of indication of what definition of poverty is being used. I have changed it to a citation needed in my suggestion but really I think it should be removed until a proper source is provided. Saying it's the poorest country in Europe makes the point clear without these unsupported assertions anyway. I did find a source that supports the assertion that it's the poorest country in Europe at least, although I am not sure it is a source befitting an encyclopedia: 

{cite web |last1=Kalymon |first1=Basil |last2=Havrylyshyn |first2=Oleh |title=Why is Ukraine Still So Poor? |url=https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/why-is-ukraine-still-so-poor/ |publisher=Atlantic Council |accessdate=9 June 2020}

As a result, I would support changing the following part of the lede: 

As of 2020, Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe alongside Moldova in terms of GDP per capita. At US$40, it has the lowest median wealth per adult in the world,[note 1][15] and suffers from a very high poverty rate as well as severe corruption.[16]

To this: 

As of 2020, Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe alongside Moldova in terms of GDP per capita[above citation], with a high rate of poverty[citation needed]. Corruption also poses a significant problem in the country: in 2017, Ukraine ranked 126th out of 180 countries in Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index.[16]

Thanks to the editors. 216.58.117.162 (talk) 00:17, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. This doesn’t seem like a simple enough matter for an edit request; I think you need to discuss your concerns about the way in which this information is presented with other editors on this talk page (such as the possible use of weasel words) to obtain a clear consensus for your changes. — Tartan357  (Talk) 08:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Second biggest military in Europe - non-cited claim

Last paragraph of introduction, about halfway through makes claim that Ukraine "...maintains the second-largest military in Europe after the Russian Armed Forces." This claim does not appear to be accompanied by any citations or links which could provide it any credibility. I have been unable to find any evidence to support this claim, and I find it highly unlikely that this is accurate. This claim should be reviewed, and citations should be presented to support it if any exist.

--Thanosins (talk) 19:09, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More or less supported by list of countries by number of military and paramilitary personnel (assuming you exclude Turkey). --Khajidha (talk) 21:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Second-largest country in Europe

This needs clarification. Russia and Kazakhstan are both larger in total area, but only Russia is larger if only European territory is concerned. The Kingdom of Denmark is also larger, but most of its territory is in Greenland. Probably best to just say that Ukraine is the largest country whose entire territory lies within Europe. --Khajidha (talk) 16:48, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kazakshtan does not play here, as it is not a European county.(KIENGIR (talk) 11:22, 11 July 2020 (UTC))[reply]
France is also larger; it includes French Guiana, which is in South America. So Ukraine can properly be called the "second largest country by European area". France in general is larger than Ukraine because it includes French Guiana; the European part of France is smaller than Ukraine. Georgia guy (talk) 15:32, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Go take a look at the map in the infobox for Europe. See that green section in northwestern Kazakhstan? That is Kazakh territory within the general definition of Europe. That small piece of Kazakhstan is larger than Greece, Bulgaria, Iceland, Portugal, Austria, the Czech Republic, Serbia, Ireland, Lithuania, Latvia, Bosnia, Slovakia, Estonia, Denmark (European portion only), Switzerland, the Netherlands (European part), Moldova, Belgium, Armenia, Albania, North Macedonia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Cyprus, Azerbaijan, Luxembourg, Georgia, Andorra, Malta, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Monaco, the Vatican City, the European portion of Turkey, or any one of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom. So, yes, it is a European country. --Khajidha (talk) 15:37, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, do not confuse having a peace of territory in Europe with being a European country. Turkey has as well a small strip inside Europe, but it is not an European country, but Asian, as Kazakshstan.(KIENGIR (talk) 00:24, 12 July 2020 (UTC))[reply]
Both Turkey and Kazakhstan are Asian AND European countries precisely because they have territory in both continents. --Khajidha (talk) 00:52, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
France is likewise both European and South American. Georgia guy (talk) 00:57, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, both of you again distinguish from the blind geographical approach. France is an European country, while Kazakshtan is Asian. Being European not just depend on geography, but several other factors.(KIENGIR (talk) 01:06, 12 July 2020 (UTC))[reply]
...such as... Georgia guy (talk) 01:16, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Considering the sentence in question is purely about physical geography, any other factors are quite irrelevant. --Khajidha (talk) 01:32, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Georgia guy, also cultural aspects, but not even identical with UEFA member states, or EU membership, we had a nice discussion about it in the Languages of Europe talk. Khajidha, I don't object your modification, but I had to express my concerns about what should be designated as a European country.(KIENGIR (talk) 01:39, 12 July 2020 (UTC))[reply]
Your concerns make no sense. It's in Europe. Even if only partially. Being IN Europe is sufficient to make it European. --Khajidha (talk) 01:54, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NO, part of her territory is in Europe, but it is NOT sufficient to make it as an European country, as Turkey as well us not European. I suggest you to read the discussion I referred which reflects all aspects of this question, even geographically, that has more views and aspects.(KIENGIR (talk) 12:26, 13 July 2020 (UTC))[reply]
I should read a discussion that can't even accept basic English? Nope. Whatever your hangups might be, the simple fact that a country has territory in Europe means it IS a European country. --Khajidha (talk) 13:19, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's your choice, I disagree. At minimum there could be transcontinental countries, a small strip is not enough.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:04, 13 July 2020 (UTC))[reply]
1) As I have already stated, transcontinental countries count in both categories and 2) Look at that list of size comparisons again. This is hardly a small strip". --Khajidha (talk) 21:10, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
1), are your opinion, not mine, 2) we could discuss if you'd read what you will not read.(KIENGIR (talk) 22:28, 13 July 2020 (UTC))[reply]
So, by your logic that transcontinental countries are not European, we have to leave France, Denmark, the Netherlands, and Russia off the list of European countries. As the text in question is about physical location and territorial size, your "other factors" are completely irrelevant. --Khajidha (talk) 22:37, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you don't know the background of my logic or it's details because you won't read something I asked, hence to continue this discussion is useless (btw, I would not take down from the list those countries you just listed and again, the text in question irrelevant here, since our discussion is not about objecting your edit, as you were told).(KIENGIR (talk) 22:40, 13 July 2020 (UTC))[reply]

With so many ways to evaluate this, sources are never going to all agree; editors offering their reasoning is SYNTH -- completely irrelevant. I suggest just stating something similar to "one of the largest countries in Europe" and move on to useful editing. --A D Monroe III(talk) 22:46, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Danloud

Saying that Ukraine is the second-largest country in Europe after Russia is wrong, because several other countries in Europe are larger than Ukraine: France, Denmark, and Kazakhstan are all larger by total area. If what you mean is "country with the second-largest territory within Europe", say so. But it is simpler to just say that it is the largest country located entirely within Europe. --Khajidha (talk) 12:25, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Khajidha: The several other countries you just mentioned, namely France, Denmark, and Kazakhstan, are all smaller than Ukraine by European territory, Denmark's Greenland is located in North America, and all of Overseas France is located outside of Europe. Making Ukraine the second-largest country in the European continent after Russia, but yes, the largest country entirely located within Europe, which i added a note for, The article had the previous edit for a long time, you're reverting it without consensus. Start a discussion before reverting the much older edit again. And Kazakhstan does not even come to the play here, it is not European. Danloud (talk) 12:34, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Your text does not make it clear that you are considering only European territory. As that is a matter of poor writing, your consensus is irrelevant. And if you can include countries with territory outside Europe, you cannot exclude Kazakhstan for having territory outside Europe.--Khajidha (talk) 12:39, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Khajidha: There are several other factors that make a country European, even Turkey has a small portion of it within Europe, but the Turks are not ethnically white European, nor are the Kazakhs, they are Turkic - Asian and two Muslim-majority nations with a non-european language, and a non-western culture, unlike the Russians who are white Europeans, speak a European language, are are culturally European. And the talk here is about the continent of Europe, not about South America or North America. Only the European portions of the country should be included. France and Denmark, even though with territory outside of Europe, are considered European, because of language and culture, while Turkey and Kazakhstan, even with smaller portions within Europe, are considered Asian. Danloud (talk) 12:52, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What does culture have to do with physical location? The sentence is about the physical size of countries. There are two possibilities here: total area and area solely within Europe. If you mean the latter you should specify, as my version does. ---Khajidha (talk) 12:58, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Khajidha: Oh, so without culture, and physical geography only, Ukraine is the second-largest country by land area in the European continent, after Russia, which is first by land area in the continent, and its European portion only, is almost 6.6 times the size of Ukraine. That is what should be written in the introduction. Danloud (talk) 10:30, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Your proposal still doesn't make it clear if that is based on total area or only on the area within Europe. --Khajidha (talk) 10:47, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Only the area within Europe, because that is what matters. It's clearly written that Ukraine is the second-largest country by area in Europe, after Russia. Anybody can understand that i am talking about area solely in Europe here. And the parts of the other European countries outside of Europe have clearly not been included. Danloud (talk) 10:49, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not clear. You are not specifying that you are looking only at area within the European continent. Kazakhstan is a has a larger land area than Ukraine and is in Europe. --Khajidha (talk) 10:59, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Kazakhstan is only partly located in Europe, and its European portion is much smaller than Ukraine. Your geographic knowledge is the reason we had to take this discussion this far, because you think any partly located country in Europe is "full European", and count their whole land area, which may or may not be within the European borders, if borders did not matter then the European continent would've never been different from Asia. Can you not see that the discussion here is about Europe - the continent, and portions of countries within the continent by Boundaries between the continents of Earth. Ukraine's European portion of 603,628 km² is around 6.6 times smaller than Russia's European portion, which spans 3,972,400 km², making Ukraine the second-largest country by land area within the European continent, and Russia the largest. You can see that i am only counting Russia's European portion's land area here, otherwise i would've put Russia's whole land area, which is partly in Asia, and spans 17,098,246 km². How hard is this to understand? Now you will probably bring Turkey, France or Denmark saying its total land area is larger than Ukraine and that its in Europe, when their European portions are much smaller than Ukraine. Do you know what Geography or a Continent is? Read this article - List of European countries by area. Danloud (talk) 12:26, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I do. The problem is that you are not specifying that you are ranking the countries in Europe solely by that portion of their territories that is in Europe. Transcontinental countries are "in Europe" and must be taken into account unless specified that only the European portion is relevant. The wording you are using in the article is ambiguous on this point. The meaning changes depending on whether you break it down as "second-largest country by area" and "in Europe" or "second largest country" and "by area in Europe". The wording you used here ("second-largest country by land area within the European continent") is actually clearer.--Khajidha (talk) 12:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The wording is correct as far as i know, just saying that Ukraine is the second-largest country in Europe after Russia, which was in the previous version, before you reverted it, was also okay. Don't think the wording needs to be this long and clear. Its already clear to people, that Russia is the largest country in Europe, and Ukraine the second-largest. Gatesnaze (talk) 12:56, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why was this section created, when it concerns the same article issue as the section above? And why title the section after an editor's name, rather than how the article can be improved? If an editor is the problem, that cannot be resolved in an article talk page, but only on one of the administrator drama boards. Targeting editors on an article talk page is somewhere between pointless and actively disruptive.

Unless some argument is presented on how the article issue in this section doesn't heavily overlap the one above, I will merge the two sections, removing the unhelpful heading. --A D Monroe III(talk) 21:28, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No idea on why he named the section over me, and even made it in the first place, since the issue is the same. It should be merged into the first section. Danloud (talk) 17:53, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ukraine&oldid=969441565"