Talk:Pamela Geller

Nadler

• In November 2008, she captured a conversation by Representative Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) on video, and posted it on YouTube. In it, after prefacing his remarks by saying he had "no personal knowledge" of the matter and his statement was merely his "guess", he went on to say that Obama "didn’t have the political courage to want to make the statement of walking out" of Trinity United Church of Christ when he realized that Rev. Jeremiah Wright was "a nut" and "lunatic," because "you don’t walk out of a church with 8,000 members in your district."[40] After Geller released the video, Nadler said: "I made a thoughtless comment yesterday which does not reflect the way I feel about Barack Obama".[40]
  • http://jta.org/news/article/2008/11/03/1000725/rjc-robo-call-highlights-nadler-statement

This passage seems to be more about Nadler than Geller. What's the point? What does it tell us about Geller? If it was an important scoop we should be able to find several sources referring to it.  Will Beback  talk  06:39, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed if there are not a couple of secondary independent reports reporting on Gellers role in this then it is likely not very noteworty and as you say the content is actually about other people and not worthy of us reporting in this life story. Off2riorob (talk) 16:35, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:18, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Spoke too soon ... there does appear to be independent secondary coverage of it by Fox News, The Weekly Standard, JTA.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Pending RfC

Ok guys and gals. The debate above seems to have petered out, and Off2 seems content to edit war the lead despite the majority of editors calling for change. Consequently, I'm going to take the initiative to move further along the WP:DR path w/ an RfC. See here for a draft. Comments and criticisms are welcome. If you want to make minor changes, please be WP:BOLD and do so. I launch in 48 hrs, unless there is some other resolution. NickCT (talk) 13:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Your allegations of my edit warring are unfounded and worthless. Also the discussion has not petered out and there are not multiple editors calling for change, there is just you - no one else feels a need to label her in any way, you are the person repeatedly re adding your POV and attacking unfounded labeling of this living person and here you go again - rather than attacking other good faith contributors you should look at yourself and your actions you have become a single issue account attempting to get your POV in the lede at all costs, repeatedly and over the course of four months when other good faith contributors would have long since taken the message and moved on, but not you, oh no, you want to continue onwards with additional unnecessary wiki process because after four months you still haven't managed to get your desired attacking label hung around her neck. Off2riorob (talk) 13:41, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

re "no one else feels a need to label her in any way, you are the person repeatedly re adding your POV and attacking unfounded labeling of this living person and here you go again" - You're either not reading, or just can't accept reality. Suggest you go back over Sol, Will, Unomi's comments. Or check the archive for OhioStandard or any number of other editor's comments.

re "you should look at yourself and your actions you have become a single issue account" - Hmmm? Don't think my contrib history would support that.

Look off2.... this seems to have become oddly personal for you. Respectfully, I don't think we're going to agree here, and I'm not really interested in your repeated mis-characterizations of the debate. If you have something that isn't an ad hominem comment, I'd be happy to hear it. Otherwise, going forward I suggest cease commenting as I will certainly cease reading. NickCT (talk) 14:44, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

There is just you pushing for this broad brush attacking anti islam, anti muslim labeling and you have been doing it for months. Such labeling in the intro is of no benefit to the article content and of no benefit to the reader and as such of no benefit to the wikipedia and imo is an embarrassing opinionated waste of time and typing and wiki lawyering process. Off2riorob (talk) 15:52, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Ok then... NickCT (talk) 16:23, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Please keep your erotic fantasies to yourself. Off2riorob (talk) 23:18, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

LOL... I have to admit, that's actually a pretty witty retort. Kudos Off2. Of course, a little strange that that's where your mind went.... NickCT (talk) 22:55, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm really not sure what to say. There's a lot of solid sources saying that Geller's stance on Islam isn't anti-jihadist but anti-Muslim. We can work out how to put that in properly in a policy compliant manner. These personal attacks and blanket dismissal of RS are going nowhere. Sol (talk) 18:17, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

• note - as it is the subject that Pamela Geller is most known for her opposition to the Park51 Muslim community center/mosque. I think it is related and relevant to note that I had to warn NickCT for edit warring at that connected article tonight, reverting to his favored position, he had 4 reverts in a short space of time. Off2riorob (talk) 23:09, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
• The only factual RS support I've seen is that she is anti-jihadist, etc., and not anti-Muslim as a whole. People do of course have opinions -- and even RSs have opinions -- but as far as RS support for here view -- all I see is that it is limited to her being anti-jihadist, etc., and viewing Nick's suggested "opinion" of her views, share by some others, as slander.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:29, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I think referring to Islam as "the most anti-Semitic, genocidal ideology in the world" qualifies one to be known as more than just anti-jihad. Saying that means that one is attacking an entire faith, not just its extremist adherents. I think it's pretty fair to consider Pamela Geller an Islamophobic bigot.Shabeki (talk) 00:45, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Rfc - Pamela Geller - Anti-Muslim?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Regarding the lead paragraph for Pamela Geller

Introduction - There has been an extended debate surrounding the lead paragraph of this article. The argument has centered around whether the lead paragraph should state or imply that Pamela Geller is either anti-muslim or is known primarily for her criticisms of Islam.

Here are some of the potentials for the lead

Current Lead Pamela Geller (born 1958), also known while married as Pamela Oshry, is an American blogger, author, political activist, and commentator.

Proposal A Pamela Geller (born 1958), also known while married as Pamela Oshry, is an American blogger, author, political activist, and commentator. She is known primarily for her criticisms of Islam and opposition to Muslim activities and causes, such as the proposed construction of an Islamic community center near the former site of the World Trade Center. She has described her blogging and campaigns in the United States as being against what she terms "creeping Sharia" in the country.

Proposal B Pamela Geller (born 1958), also known while married as Pamela Oshry, is an American blogger, author, political activist, and commentator. She is known primarily for her criticisms of Islam and opposition to Muslim activities and causes, though she describes both her blog and campaigns as anti-jihadist. She denies accusations of being anti-Muslim, saying that they are "a slanderous slur", and distinguishes between what she terms "Islamic supremacists", whom she is against, and other Muslims, whom she says are "themselves victimized by Islamic supremacists". She has been noted as one of the initial critics of the location of an Islamic community center near the former site of the World Trade Center.

Please read above to review the debate that has been brewing. Here are the chief points that have been raised.

Against any change to lead

• Geller denies accusations of being anti-Muslim, saying that it is "a slanderous slur and it's unfair". She delineates which aspects and adherents of Islam she is against, and says that she is not against all Islam and all Islamic activities
• All the detail is already in the lede without any disputable accusatory POV labeling. Wikipedia shouldn't support such labeling of living people

For

• Virtually all the sources available that discuss this individual discuss her in the context of being critical of Islam (see above for a list of sources). Some of those sources explicitly call her "anti-muslim". Failing to mention what makes this person notable in the lead seems like censorship.

If we could get some editors to take a look at it with fresh eyes, we'd be happy for the input.

To get some sense on whether consensus is developing, if editors could phrase their responses in the following format

• Support Current Lead - This is obviously the only choice that makes sense. Joe Blow, 11:61 EST Sept 20, 2015
• Support Change to A - This is obviously the better choice. Joe Smoe, 11:61 EST Sept 20, 2015
• Support Change to A or B - The middle road is always best. Confustious Says, 11:61 EST Sept 20, 2015
• Support Current Lead or B - I could swing both ways. Androgewnus, 11:61 EST Sept 20, 2015

Thanks in advance for everyone's input! NickCT (talk) 22:20, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

• Support Change to A - I've commented pretty extensively in the debates above, so I'll simply say here that if you erased all of the news articles written about this woman in the context of criticisms of Islam, there would be no articles about her remaining and she would no longer be notable; hence, it seems both due and verifiable that we mention her "anti-Islamic" positions early in the lead. NickCT (talk) 22:28, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support Change to A It best addresses my concerns per the above conversation. It avoids the "anti-Muslim" language while noting what gets her press coverage. Sol (talk) 22:51, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support Change to A pretty much echo'ing Sol's comments Midlakewinter (talk) 23:17, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
• Comment The lead should be a summary of the article as a whole. Get the article sorted and then summarise it to get the lead. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:50, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Neither proposal of nom here does that.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support Change to A - From a neutral standpoint, I don't see anything wrong with mentioning her anti-Islamic positioning so long as it is verifiable and in-line cited. Proposal A also skirts the "anti-Muslim" word, which isn't really necessary in the summary when "criticizes Islam" works better. Is it somewhat a broad brush? Yes, I think it is, but the whole idea of a summary line is to use a broad brush.MrCrackers (talk) 20:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The problem is we have verifiable in-line cited refs indicating that she says such a statement is slander, and that while she is against jihadism and certain other approaches that stem from elements of the Islamic community, she is not anti-Islam. And that such an expansion of her views is slander, and an effort to smear her. As she is a BLP, that raises an important problem with both of nom's suggestions, which simply repeat what she indicates is slander -- in wikipedia's voice.

• Support Change to A. Straightforward and accurate, without being inflamatory or POV. Good work NickCT.  – OhioStandard (talk) 06:34, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Straighforward, certainly. As straightforward as the language that Geller clearly says is slander, and an inaccurate representation of her views, which she has clarified.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:27, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Comment Can’t support either A or B. I have a concern with two phrases that occur in each of these options: 1) “known primarily for her criticisms of Islam” casts Geller as an opponent of the Islamic religion. In fact, it seems she opposes the actions of high-profile members of the Islamic religion, not the religion itself. 2) The phrase, “and (known primarily for her criticisms of) opposition to Muslim activities and causes” implies that she is opposed to Muslim activities and causes in general. But this is not obvious from the refs. Could it be that she is opposed to certain high-profile Muslim activities and causes? I think you have to more careful about phrasing in a BLP. And I support Martin H’s suggestion that the lead summarize the main content of the article, when the article becomes a bit better organized. Early morning person (talk) 21:16, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Well, she's said the only Muslims who aren't jihadists are secular Muslims. You can probably find the ref by searching her blog. And she posted a drawing (since deleted) on her blog of Muhammad (any such drawing is in itself offensive to Muslims) with an image of a pig's face (pigs are unclean to Muslims) in place of his own. Makes it hard to give her points for religious tolerance, don't you think? Best,  – OhioStandard (talk) 22:47, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Early Morning hit it on the head. This RfC is like an old election in a dictatorship -- no viable alternative is offered, despite them having been discussed in the above discussions. Nom has limited the "choices" to "Geller is critical of Islam and opposes Muslim activities" -- this in the wake of the entire discussion above which highlighted that she said such accusations are both untrue and slander. How nom missed that, and did not offer an alternative encompassing the view of those who disagree with him (which in fact prompted this RfC in the first place), escapes me.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support Change to A. This is the only way I've ever heard her described. Scrapbkn (talk) 21:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Then perhaps read the refs reflected in the article, which present a contrary view.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:27, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support Change to A. Ohiostandard said it better than I could. Flatterworld (talk) 00:44, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support Change to A with one modification: either remove the word "primarily" or source it impeccably. Rivertorch (talk) 05:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

As this is a BLP, and she has said that the language proposed (in both A and B) is slander, perhaps impeccable sourcing would be appropriate even with the removal of that word, and balance might be something to consider introducing. As the refs in the article reflect, Geller herself says this is a misrepresentation of her view. Why non-POV editors would seek to censor that escapes me.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:27, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support Current Lead or B. " This is the only way I've ever heard her described" may tell us more about you than about her. Is she really "against Islam" in the sense of that guy in Florida who wanted to burn Korans - that is, is she "against" Islam because it's a false religion or for political reasons? If its the latter, I'd be inclined to believe her if she says she's only against some leaders. Who would know whast she believes better than she herself? Herostratus (talk) 19:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

So I guess you don't buy the WP:V argument? If 20 reliable sources say John Doe is a conservative, but John says he's a liberal, we take John at his word? NickCT (talk) 20:01, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

No I don't, and you make a good point - we can't and don't take people at their word about these things. However: A) how a person describes themselves is a data point, and B) all things being equal we prefer to call people what they themselves like to be called - we say someone is Iranian rather than Persian because the Iranians asked us to do that, and so forth. But, granted, as far as ideologies go, all things often aren't equal - many people prefer to be called by nicer names than what they actually are. So, basically, you are correct.

However, people do have an axe to grind here. None of the people describing her as "Anti-Islamic" are Fair Witnesses capable of truly and dispassionately deciding what labels a given person should bear (or should be "widely described" as bearing, which - innuendo and inference being what it is - amounts to the same thing). In extreme cases it's obvious. We can probably say (in the lead) "Whoever-he-is, the leader of Aryan Stormfront, is a racist leader..." notwithstanding that he might prefer "genetic improvement advocate" or whatever. Because its slam-dunk obvious. But in most cases we can't do that. We wouldn't say (in the lead) "Rush Limbaugh is a popular radio commentator who is widely described as a racist..." because its arguable and he wouldn't agree.

As far as being "Anti-Muslim", I would think that there are two ways to achieve this. First, theologically, if you believe that Islam is a false religion (and some other religion isn't). This doesn't apply here (Geller may believe this, but AFAIK she hasn't said so). Second, ideologically, if you believe that Islam inherently predisposes its adherents to criminality or whatever. If Geller believes the latter, one would expect her to take the position that mosques and Islamic schools should not allowed to operate, Muslims should only be allowed to live in certain designated areas, Muslims should be required to wear identifying insignia, the Koran should not be allowed to be published, that sort of thing. Does Geller say things like this? If she does, she may be described in the lead as Anti-Islamic (or "widely described as..."). If she doesn't, she probably shouldn't be.

Being against the so-called Ground Zero Mosque (but not all mosques in general) does not make one Anti-Islamic. It does make one a hysterical idiot and/or a cynical manipulator, but that's different. All the stuff about what she says, quotes from and about her, do belong in the article. But not in the lead. Herostratus (talk) 01:17, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

re "themselves is a data point" - Granted. But in this case we have many other data points.

re "all things being equal ..... themselves like to be called" - I too value "self-identification" quite highly, especially when semi-abstract concepts are involved (i.e. relgion, sexual preference, ethnicity, political persuasion etc). But as you say "many people prefer to be called by nicer names", and it strike me that this is pretty obviously true in Geller's case.

re "Fair Witnesses capable " - Not really sure I understand your meaning here. Many of the sources we've pointed to are fairly mainstream sources...

re "Rush Limbaugh" - I think analogies to Limbaugh are unfair. For every 10 sources that call Limbaugh a racist, I could give 10 calling him a "conservative wack-job", or 10 calling him a "hardcore conservate commentator" or even 10 calling him "America's greatest hope at redemption". Focusing on the 10 sources calling Limbaugh racist would probably violate WP:NPOV & WP:DUE. Geller is different. Almost all the sources available for her discuss her in the context of being critical of Islam.

re "as being "Anti-Muslim"" - Note that in proposal A, we're not actually explicitly calling her "anti-muslim".

re "Being against the so-called Ground Zero Mosque ... one Anti-Islamic" - Of course; but this is only one small part of Geller's history of being against Muslim projects/activities.

As a side note, just want to mention that I appreciate the points your making. Though I obviously disagree with them, it's refreshing to get some reasoned debate, rather than inflexible rhetoric. NickCT (talk) 15:59, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Well your points are also good. So I don't know the answer. I do know that Wikipedia is populated mostly by liberal types, and we should be on the watch against Wikipedia:Systemic bias. Herostratus (talk) 07:31, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Is this a lib-con conflict? Or a Christian Muslim conflict? Or an Israel Palestine conflict? Honestly I think it's some of all of those. I'll tell you what though, however much you think liberals are over represented on english wikipedia, muslims are more under represented. I'd suggest that's probably Wikipedia:Systemic bias we should be more concerned about.... NickCT (talk) 14:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

"If 20 reliable sources say OJ killed his girlfriend, but he says he did not, we do not with Wikipedia's voice say "OJ is known for killing his girlfriend". Unless we have a POV to push. Which never happens.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:27, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Ah but Epee, 20 reliable sources don't say OJ killed his girlfriend (specifically b/c it would be libelous), so the point is sorta moot. Additionally, OJ is sorta known for a lot of things outside allegedly killing his girlfriend. NickCT (talk) 18:38, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support A - per NY Times which states plainly: "An article last Sunday about Pamela Geller, a blogger who attacks Islam, ..." and the ADL profile on her. un☯mi 23:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support modified B I would prefer something like: Pamela Geller (born 1958), also known while married as Pamela Oshry, is an American blogger, author, political activist, and commentator. She is known primarily for her criticisms of Islam and opposition to Muslim activities and causes, which she describes as being anti-jihadist. Then place the rest of her reasoning/defense within the article proper. Active Banana (^bananaphone 16:18, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support A, as that seems most neutral.VR _talk 05:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
• RFC needs to be re-done properly. This is a flawed RfC. Nom, despite copious conversation, failed completely to offer an alternative that encompassed the views of those who disagreed with him. It is clear from the above conversation that those whose views nom disagreed with supported a lead with the statement that mirrored Geller's statement -- she is against jidahists and certain Muslims -- while avoiding what she has clearly stated is an untrue statement as to what she thinks. Nom stacked the deck with alternatives that do not encompass the views of the very editors he disagreed with, giving us an alternative of "When did you stop beating your wife" and "When did you stop beating your wife". His entire RfC is therefore completely flawed.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:12, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

It took four weeks to realize that? Or is that merely how long it took to realize the way the preponderance of comments were heading, so desperate measures such as challenging the original validity of the month-old RFC were necessary? Of course, the "it's totally invalid" argument is totally specious, since the RFC provides three choices, not two, one of the three being the "current lead" option. Fat&Happy (talk) 23:36, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Others have made the same objection since the RfC started. Fat -- you are not really basing your argument on the weak view of the timing of an editor stating his objection, are you? That seems rather a bit of a red herring, for a timely comment at an RfC.

And, of course, the current lead was not reflected above by nom. Nom for some reason reflected only a portion of it; and not even all of the relevant portion of the lede. Thanks for bringing attention to yet another flaw in this nomination. Part of the lede bearing on the subject of the article and Islam, that was omitted in the nom's reflection of what the lede says (disturbingly, if we are having an honest informed discussion here), was "She has been cited as one of the most visible opponents of the Park51 community center and mosque in Lower Manhattan.[6] Her weblog, "Atlas Shrugs", has been criticized by progressive Media Matters for America,[7][8] and called "right-wing" by Doug Chandler of The Jewish Week[2] and "extreme" by Chris McGreal of The Guardian.[9] Caroline Glick has praised the blog's coverage of Muslim "honor killings".[10]" We can't very well have people make a decision based on a misrepresentation (through dramatic omission) of what the lede says on the subject that is reflected in the name of this RfC. This is a complete abortion.

Finally, the present lede can be improved, as those who have disagreed with nom -- to whom he responded with this RfC, have pointed out above. This is a BLP, where the subject of the article says that she is against "X", and that accusations against her that she believes "Y" are inaccurate slander. That is precisely what we should reflect in the lede.

Part (thought not all) of what she has said on the subject, as stated quite clearly in the body of the article but not reflected in nom's "alternatives", is:

Geller denies accusations of being anti-Muslim, saying that it is "a slanderous slur and it's unfair".[9][18][19] She said:

the ground zero mosque ... To me it was an outrage, to me it was deeply offensive, to me it was indicative that interfaith dialogue and mutual respect and mutual understanding is a one-way street with Islamic supremacists, not Muslims. I believe that Muslims are more victimized by Islamic supremacists than even non-Muslims.[20]

This is what should be reflected first in the lede, and contrary views as to what her views are (by people other than Geller) should be provided following the living person's statement, with a reflection of why they think Geller's beliefs are not what Geller says they are.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Part (though not all) of what she has said on the subject, only some in the body of the article and not reflected in nom's "alternatives", is:

• "I will say that the Muslim terrorists were practicing pure Islam, original Islam"[1]
• "What is a moderate Muslim? A secular Muslim."[2]
• "Oh, I absolutely [...] Oh, I believe in the idea of a moderate Muslim. I do not believe in the idea of a moderate Islam. … I think a moderate Muslim is a secular Muslim."[3]

So she doesn't go quite as far as General Sheridan did when commenting about Indians... to her, the only good Muslim is a non-practicing Muslim. Or at least one who practices an "impure" (revisionist) version of Islam. Sort of like saying "I have nothing against Jews as long as they're members of Jews for Jesus." Fat&Happy (talk) 01:26, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Further, those reading skills really need to be honed a bit. The RFC is clearly identified as pertaining to content of the lead paragraph, not the full lead section. The current content of that paragraph, offered as one of the three alternatives submitted for comment, is accurately portrayed.Fat&Happy (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Note the two paragraphs directly above were inserted after the comment by OhioStandard below and were not part of the agreement in the first sentence thereof.

This is actually pretty simple. 1) Reflect what she says her thoughts are. With RS support. 2) Reflect, as notable, others' belief as to what she her thoughts are. With RS support. While doing so, where the RSs reflect that her belief is contrary to what she explicitly says her belief is, reflect the basis for the RS's view as to her beliefs.

By comparison, if we were to discuss Fat and Happy, it would go like this:

"Fat and Happy says he is happy, and that anyone who says he is not happy is stating an untruth. Scientific American, however, opines that in its view Fat and Happy is actually unhappy, and the magazine bases its view on the fact that ...."

--Epeefleche (talk) 02:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The entire discussion of her "beliefs" is a bit of a diversion. Nowhere in the proposed paragraph (I'm looking at A), does it refer to anti-Muslim beliefs or anti-Islam(ic) beliefs. This is a case of "by their works shall ye know them". She has opposed Muslim activities; she has criticized Islam. That is well-known and well-documented. And that is what she is most known for. Fat&Happy (talk) 03:00, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Spot-on in your analysis, F&H, and well-said. But I agree with Epee that "she is against jidahists and certain Muslims". Geller has even made it perfectly clear for us who these "certain Muslims" are that she's against: She's against the religious ones. She's said very explicitly and clearly that the only Muslims she is not against are the secular ones, the ones who have, in fact, rejected Islam. Why? All Muslims who practice Islam as their personal religion are jihadists, she tells us. Jihadists are bad. Practicing Muslims are jihadists. Therefore, practicing Muslims are bad. Major premise, minor premise, conclusion; there's not much to argue about here, Epee. I actually think your argument comes down to no argument at all, but is rather just an example of WP:ILIKEIT. It's your perfect right to "like it", to like Geller's PR-friendly blather that she's not against Islam, only against certain of its adherents. But it's disingenuous to leave out the part of that which discloses that those "certain" adherents are the ones who believe in and practice it as their religion. Anyone who stated that they were "only" against religious Jews, or only against practicing Christians would rightfully be called anti-Semitic or anti-Christian. Anyone who states that she's "only" against religious Muslims is likewise rightfully called anti-Muslim, regardless of her denial of the description: It's my impression that very few bigots and racists get all warm and fuzzy feeling at being accurately described for what they are.  – OhioStandard (talk) 00:40, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

@F&H: Thanks for your care re continuity of the thread, F&H, but the disclaimer wasn't necessary in this case. You're still spot on in your analysis. Couldn't be more so. And thanks for digging up those refs, too.  – OhioStandard (talk) 02:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok. A number of points here.

@Epeefleche - re "RFC needs to be re-done properly. This is a flawed RfC" - You're sorta complaining in the 11th hour here. I'm not sure I have much sympathy with your viewpoint.

re "(nominator) failed completely to offer an alternative " - Epee. I asked you a number of times to participate and offer alternatives that could have been included in the RfC. You did not. I tried my best to form what little you did offer into somekind of cogent proposal.

re "Nom for some reason reflected only a portion of it" - 1) WP:AGF, 2) if you'd mentioned it earlier, I would have fixed it. You shouldn't be complaining about it now.

Look Epee, to be frank, I think consensus has pretty clearly come down against your position. As I see it, you can 1) make constructive suggestions towards a possible compromise, in which case I'd love to hear from you and would be happy to discuss, or, alternatively you can 2) obstruct and game-the-system, in which case, I for one will be ignoring you.

@F&H - re "entire discussion of her "beliefs" is a bit of a diversion." - Absolutely. Frankly, I'm guessing Epee will want to divert like crazy to try and avoid a change he simply does not like.

@Ohio - re "Therefore, practicing Muslims are bad. " - I can't really make much of this argument either. As far as I'm aware, "Muslim" is a religous classification. If someone isn't practicing Islam, they aren't a Muslim, no? NickCT (talk) 15:51, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support A. Simpler, clearer, less argumentative. Jonathanwallace (talk) 04:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support A - as it is both a fuller and an accurate (if unflattering) description of words and acts, rather than beliefs, than the current lead. The lead should be a full and accurate synopsis. For BLP articles, we need to source any controversial statement fully. The truth is a defense to defamation. Alternately, I would agree to suggestions by Epeefleche. Bearian (talk) 16:53, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

The standard month long time period for this RfC has expired

Here's a quick break down of the results

Supporting current lead - 1, possibly 2 editors

Supporting proposal A - 12 editors

Supporting proposal B - 2 editors

(other propsals raised during RfC)

Supporting better orgranization of the article followed by summarizing - 2 editors

Supporting redoing the RfC "properly" - 1 editor

Result - Apparent consensus for proposal A.

Suggested course of action - We could possibly request that this RfC be formerly closed by an uninvolved admin, or we could simply accept that consensus is for proposal A and make the lead change immediately. Anyone got any thoughts? NickCT (talk) 16:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The first option seems safer. Rivertorch (talk) 18:04, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Ah but the second would be so much more satisfying..... alas, you're probably right. I put a notice on the admin's noticeboard. NickCT (talk) 20:04, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

If I had participated, I would have picked "current lead", but since I'm evaluating the actual discussion that took place over the past month, I'll have to go with A. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:22, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd be interested in hearing your rationale for picking "current lead". Have you considered all the sources which would support A? NickCT (talk) 20:30, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

You mean, all the ones that support the rest of the article, of which this is supposed to be just a summary?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:46, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I see. So perhaps you are with the two editors who were "Supporting better orgranization of the article followed by summarizing"?? I'd certainly agree the article requires work. I think I was taking a "lead first" approach to fixing the article. Perhaps your point has merit, and a "body first" approach would have been more advisable.

If I can get my act together, I'll work on the body..... NickCT (talk) 21:19, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Questionable article

I noticed this in a contribs list. A quick look at the article text suggests that it's poorly conceived: the choppiness is enough to discredit it. Do we really give someone who's just a blogger this much oxygen? Tony (talk) 07:14, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Couldn't agree with you more, Tony. Geller has made herself the poster-girl for vehement anti-Muslim sentiment in America, though: that's her only claim to fame. And the poor quality and choppiness you rightly deprecate in the article is due to the unfortunate necessity to exercise dogged patience for long intervals to bring even the tiniest of improvements to it. If you stick around for a while you'll see what I mean. Cheers,  – OhioStandard (talk) 09:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, not much interested in getting involved in the politics of it all: whether she's left/right/anti/pro up or down, the article doesn't (yet) do much for any world view ... nor for WP's reputation for professionalism. Good luck! Tony (talk) 09:45, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Ayn Rand

The article points out that Geller says her blog is based on Ayn Rand's philosophy. That is what she claims. It could be pointed out that the so-called "Ayn Rand Institute" makes the same claim for itself, and that both it and Geller move in the same circles.  See:
Birds of a Feather  . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexus001 (talk • contribs) 00:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Any actual reliable sources claiming a relationship there and pointing out why it is relevant? Fat&Happy (talk) 00:54, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Minor overkill in lead after RFC?

With the modification of the first paragraph following an RFC, do we still need "She has been cited as one of the most visible opponents of the Park51 community center and mosque in Lower Manhattan." in the second paragraph? (IMO, losing the ref that is currently attached to that sentence would not be a concern, since it's still used several other places in the article.) Fat&Happy (talk) 21:11, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Good point. Trimmed. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:14, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Sarek, I don't want to sound racist or speciesist, or whatever. But have you noticed Geller's ears? I mean, you're aware of our COI policies, I'm sure. Is there anything you need to disclose about your relationship to our subject?  – OhioStandard (talk) 22:37, 24 February 2011 (UTC)