Talk:Pseudoscience

Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee created guidelines for how to present pseudoscientific topics in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. Neutral point of view as applied to science: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience. Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Wikipedia aspires to be such a respected work.

The four groupings found at WP:PSCI Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized. Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

Please read before starting First of all, welcome to Wikipedia's Pseudoscience article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic. Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here. A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents the fields it lists as "pseudoscience" in an unsympathetic light or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are: NPOV: Pseudoscience NPOV: Undue weight NPOV: Making necessary assumptions NPOV: Giving "equal validity". The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the Content forking guidelines. These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE). Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON).

Notes to editors: This article uses scientific terminology, and as such, the use of the word 'theory' to refer to anything outside of a recognised scientific theory is ambiguous. Please use words such as 'concept', 'notion', 'idea', 'assertion'; see Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Theory. Please use edit summaries.

Feyerabend

This was removed as 'OR'. It had a citation needed tag. Note that OR is not for verifiable claims that are missing a citation, but only for unverifiable claims. Diff: [1].

Here's the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

• "Against Method explicitly drew the “epistemological anarchist” conclusion that there are no useful and exceptionless methodological rules governing the progress of science or the growth of knowledge. The history of science is so complex that if we insist on a general methodology which will not inhibit progress the only “rule” it will contain will be the useless suggestion: “anything goes”. In particular, logical empiricist methodologies and Popper's Critical Rationalism would inhibit scientific progress by enforcing restrictive conditions on new theories. The more sophisticated “methodology of scientific research programmes” developed by Lakatos either contains ungrounded value-judgements about what constitutes good science, or is reasonable only because it is epistemological anarchism in disguise. The phenomenon of incommensurability renders the standards which these “rationalists” use for comparing theories inapplicable. The book thus (understandably) had Feyerabend branded an “irrationalist”. At a time when Kuhn was downplaying the “irrationalist” implications of his own book, Feyerabend was perceived to be casting himself in the role others already saw as his for the taking." http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feyerabend/

• "Feyerabend saw himself as having undermined the arguments for science's privileged position within culture, and much of his later work was a critique of the position of science within Western societies. Because there is no scientific method, we can't justify science as the best way of acquiring knowledge. And the results of science don't prove its excellence, since these results have often depended on the presence of non-scientific elements, science prevails only because “the show has been rigged in its favour” (SFS, p. 102), and other traditions, despite their achievements, have never been given a chance. The truth, he suggests, is that: 'science is much closer to myth than a scientific philosophy is prepared to admit. It is one of the many forms of thought that have been developed by man, and not necessarily the best. It is conspicuous, noisy, and impudent, but it is inherently superior only for those who have already decided in favour of a certain ideology, or who have accepted it without ever having examined its advantages and its limits (AM, p. 295).'"

• "In most of his work after Against Method, he emphasises what has come to be known as the “disunity of science”. Science, he insists, is a collage, not a system or a unified project. Not only does it include plenty of components derived from distinctly “non-scientific” disciplines, but these components are often vital parts of the “progress” science has made (using whatever criterion of progress you prefer). Science is a collection of theories, practices, research traditions and world-views whose range of application is not well-determined and whose merits vary to a great extent. All this can be summed up in his slogan: “Science is not one thing, it is many.”"

• "Feyerabend came to be seen as a leading cultural relativist, not just because he stressed that some theories are incommensurable, but also because he defended relativism in politics as well as in epistemology. His denunciations of aggressive Western imperialism, his critique of science itself, his conclusion that “objectively” there may be nothing to choose between the claims of science and those of astrology, voodoo, and alternative medicine, as well as his concern for environmental issues ensured that he was a hero of the anti-technological counter-culture."

I think we can either use IEP as a source, or if that's too tertiary we can go to the underlying writings. But Feyerabend's perspective is notable and should be put back. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 02:15, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

None of the above quotes mention pseudoscience at all. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:40, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

That's partly because Feyerabend thinks pseudoscience is not a meaningful distinction. He's a relativist in this area and his critique of science (bolded above) is part of the demarcation problem of defining what is or is not science. The key point is that Feyerabend thinks that distinction itself, the boundary of what science is, is a fuzzy one. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 13:54, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I think that IRW's point is valid and that we need a source that interprets Feyerabend in the context of the pseudoscience debate. Otherwise the OR issue is likely to raise its head again. Jojalozzo 15:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Feyerbend is being talked about in the context of the demarcation problem--what is and what is not science. He is talking about scientific method. He is talking about voodoo and other 'alternative' practices. Feyerabend is related to the demarcation problem and to pseudoscience insofar as it deals with a definition and categorization of science. The word 'pseudoscience' is not the only thing that would make it relevant. Please double-check the entire quotation to make sure you're examine its focus and bearing on the article section where it is currently used. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 22:50, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I can see the connections and there is little opportunity for synthesis with so many direct quotes, but the SEP doesn't really connect the dots for us. Isn't there a reliable source that actually synthesizes this? Jojalozzo 02:40, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The text is mass OR "Paul Feyerabend disputes whether any meaningful boundaries can be drawn between pseudoscience and mainstream science, arguing that science is a diverse pursuit which incorporates non-scientific elements while excluding others from the "myth" of scientific method.[59]" QuackGuru (talk) 21:26, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Can you compare that quote to the above citation. It is supported throughout. Please don't call edits you disagree with OR. If you have a suggested rephrasing based on the source, provide it please. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 22:45, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

The text is not supported by the ref. See WP:OR. QuackGuru (talk) 22:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

That's not correct, the text supports the ref. See the text, please. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 22:50, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

The ref does not support the text at all. QuackGuru (talk) 00:59, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Pseudoscience

Our discussion of Matute et al. has found its way onto the fringe theories noticeboard. Jojalozzo 02:48, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The source is practically entirely on the topic of pseudoscience.

Editors seem to have a personal disagreement with the mainstream source.

The serious matters that are a threat to public health are:

"The ‘Keep libel laws out of science’ campaign was launched on 4 June 2009, in the UK. Simon Singh, a science writer who alerted the public about the lack of evidence supporting chiropractic treatments, was sued for libel by the British Chiropractic Association (Sense about Science, 2009). Similar examples can be found in almost any country. In Spain, another science writer, Luis Alfonso Ga´mez, was also sued after he alerted the public on the lack of evidence supporting the claims of a popular pseudoscientist (Ga´mez, 2007). In the USA, 54% of the population believes in psychic healing and 36% believe in telepathy (Newport & Strausberg, 2001). In Europe, the statistics are not too different. According to the Special Eurobarometer on Science and Technology (European Commission, 2005), and just to mention a few examples, a high percentage of Europeans consider homeopathy (34%) and horoscopes (13%) to be good science. Moreover, ‘the past decade has witnessed acceleration both in consumer interest in and use of CAM (complementary and alternative medicine) practices and/or products. Surveys indicate that those with the most serious and debilitating medical conditions, such as cancer, chronic pain, and HIV, tend to be the most frequent users of the CAM practices’ (White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy, 2002, p. 15). Elements of the latest USA presidential campaign have also been frequently cited as examples of how superstitious beliefs of all types are still happily alive and promoted in our Western societies (e.g., Katz, 2008). On another, quite dramatic example, Science Magazine recently alerted about the increase in ‘stem cell tourism’, which consists of travelling to another country in the hope of finding a stem cell-based treatment for a disease when such a treatment has not yet been approved in one’s own country (Kiatpongsan & Sipp, 2009). This being the current state of affairs it is not easy to counteract the power and credibility of pseudoscience."

Matute H, Yarritu I, Vadillo MA (2010). "Illusions of causality at the heart of pseudoscience". Br J Psychol. doi:10.1348/000712610X532210. PMID 21092400.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

The threat to public health is a statement made as a conclusion rather than an assumption. This is indeed about the topic psedoscience according to the source. For example, "This being the current state of affairs it is not easy to counteract the power and credibility of pseudoscience."

One of the main pseudoscience points from full text is: "As preoccupied and active as many governmental and sceptical organizations are in their fight against pseudoscience, quackery, superstitions and related problems, their efforts in making the public understand the scientific facts required to make good and informed decisions are not always as effective as they should be. Pseudoscience can be defined as any belief or practice that pretends to be scientific but lacks supporting evidence. Quackery is a particular type of pseudoscience that refers to medical treatments. Superstitions are irrational beliefs that normally involve cause–effect relations that are not real, as those found in pseudoscience and quackery. These are a serious matter of public health and educational policy in which many variables are involved."

The authors summarised the public health issue in the abstract. According to the source pseudoscience is a serious matter that threatens public health. It is OR if we don't summarise the main pseudoscience points because it would be taking the source out of context.

From abstract: "Pseudoscience, superstitions, and quackery are serious problems that threaten public health and in which many variables are involved."

Matute H, Yarritu I, Vadillo MA (2010). "Illusions of causality at the heart of pseudoscience". Br J Psychol. doi:10.1348/000712610X532210. PMID 21092400.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) The WP:V compliant source must be restored and sumarised at Pseudoscience.

The Matute reference does not need to be a MEDRS qualifying review of pseudoscience literature. The text meets WP:SOURCES. It would be a violation of NPOV to imply a serious dispute where there is none. Therefore it should not be attributed and when the Matute reference is reletively new and peer-reviewed it must be given dueweight. Do you agree the source can be restored and summarised at pseudoscience. The reference was not withdrawn and there is no evidence the source was not published. You comment suggests you have a personal disagreemnt with the source when you claim "there are no published plans to include it in a future issue" when there is no evidence the source was withdrawn. QuackGuru (talk) 01:00, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

What is this longwinded bit doing here? The purpose of this section is to let folks know there is a discussion in the fringe noticeboard. You appear to have taken that as license to begin another seemingly endless discussion about Matute et al. In my view you have consumed sufficient space here for this matter. Perhaps you should take a break lest administrators begin to notice your persistent disruption of the editing community for this article. Jojalozzo 01:46, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Trick or Treatment

I removed the text that is not about pseudoscience. QuackGuru (talk) 21:08, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Matute

The Matute text and reference seems to have been inserted against consensus again. DigitalC (talk) 03:48, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

In accordance with consensus here and on the Fringe theories noticeboard, I reverted the instances where Matute et al. was used as a source for public health risks of pseudoscience. Even where the paper is offered as an appropriate source it seems to be tenditiously over-referenced. Jojalozzo 03:13, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

There is verification on your talk page. I also explained this to Tom. QuackGuru (talk) 03:18, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I have asked you here and on my talk page several times to keep this discussion on the article talk page. This is not a personal dispute between you and me. It should be conducted here in full view of the editing community on this page. Your not-hearing behavior is getting tiresome regarding both the Matute et al. paper and your repetitive, redundant and tenditious posts on my talk page. I have asked for help with the later and we may soon be seeking remedies to your disrespect for consensus in this article. Jojalozzo 04:13, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

How does "Our research proves that developing evidence-based educational programmes should be effective in helping people detect and reduce their own illusions." support "...are a critical matter that involves public health" et al. And yes I did read it and I did read the talk page archives. - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 04:22, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

If you don't understand the text is sourced then I suggest you read WP:V policy. The abstract provides a summary and the full text explains the matter in more detail. Do you agree the full text says "These are a serious matter of public health...."? QuackGuru (talk) 04:39, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

The claim is supported by the mainstream source per WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:WEIGHT policies.

The serious matters that are a threat to public health are:

"The ‘Keep libel laws out of science’ campaign was launched on 4 June 2009, in the UK. Simon Singh, a science writer who alerted the public about the lack of evidence supporting chiropractic treatments, was sued for libel by the British Chiropractic Association (Sense about Science, 2009). Similar examples can be found in almost any country. In Spain, another science writer, Luis Alfonso Ga´mez, was also sued after he alerted the public on the lack of evidence supporting the claims of a popular pseudoscientist (Ga´mez, 2007). In the USA, 54% of the population believes in psychic healing and 36% believe in telepathy (Newport & Strausberg, 2001). In Europe, the statistics are not too different. According to the Special Eurobarometer on Science and Technology (European Commission, 2005), and just to mention a few examples, a high percentage of Europeans consider homeopathy (34%) and horoscopes (13%) to be good science. Moreover, ‘the past decade has witnessed acceleration both in consumer interest in and use of CAM (complementary and alternative medicine) practices and/or products. Surveys indicate that those with the most serious and debilitating medical conditions, such as cancer, chronic pain, and HIV, tend to be the most frequent users of the CAM practices’ (White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy, 2002, p. 15). Elements of the latest USA presidential campaign have also been frequently cited as examples of how superstitious beliefs of all types are still happily alive and promoted in our Western societies (e.g., Katz, 2008). On another, quite dramatic example, Science Magazine recently alerted about the increase in ‘stem cell tourism’, which consists of travelling to another country in the hope of finding a stem cell-based treatment for a disease when such a treatment has not yet been approved in one’s own country (Kiatpongsan & Sipp, 2009). This being the current state of affairs it is not easy to counteract the power and credibility of pseudoscience."

The threat to public health is a statement made as a conclusion rather than an assumption. This is indeed about the topic pseudoscience according to the source. For example, "This being the current state of affairs it is not easy to counteract the power and credibility of pseudoscience."

One of the main pseudoscience points from full text is: "As preoccupied and active as many governmental and sceptical organizations are in their fight against pseudoscience, quackery, superstitions and related problems, their efforts in making the public understand the scientific facts required to make good and informed decisions are not always as effective as they should be. Pseudoscience can be defined as any belief or practice that pretends to be scientific but lacks supporting evidence. Quackery is a particular type of pseudoscience that refers to medical treatments. Superstitions are irrational beliefs that normally involve cause–effect relations that are not real, as those found in pseudoscience and quackery. These are a serious matter of public health and educational policy in which many variables are involved."

The authors summarised the public health issue in the abstract. According to the source pseudoscience is a serious matter that threatens public health. It is WP:OR if we don't summarise the main pseudoscience points because it would be taking the source out of context.

From abstract: "Pseudoscience, superstitions, and quackery are serious problems that threaten public health and in which many variables are involved."

Matute H, Yarritu I, Vadillo MA (2010). "Illusions of causality at the heart of pseudoscience". Br J Psychol. doi:10.1348/000712610X532210. PMID 21092400.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

As a point of fact, there are hundreds of WP:V-compliant sources on the subject. However, the Matute source is peer-reviewed and should be given WP:WEIGHT. The text and source meets WP:SOURCES. It would be a violation of NPOV to imply a serious dispute where there is none. The text does not need to be attributed becuase editors disgree with researchers. I think that a summary of Matutue et al. does contribute a lot to Pseudoscience#Demographics, Pseudoscience#Psychological explanations and Pseudoscience#Health and education implications. The text passes V. Please don't delete sourced text again. QuackGuru (talk) 04:39, 9 July 2011 (UTC)