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Hope good use can be made of at least some of these. Cheers all, ---- [[User:Calthinus|Calthinus]] [[User talk:Calthinus| (talk)]] 06:04, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Hope good use can be made of at least some of these. Cheers all, ---- [[User:Calthinus|Calthinus]] [[User talk:Calthinus| (talk)]] 06:04, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

== Copyright violation and RS+VER+INDISCRIMINATE issues ==

The Halliday section is a practically verbatim copy-paste from the copyrighted source, which is a copyright violation [[WP:CV]] and must not be present under legal requirements. The content, included [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Racism_in_the_Arab_world&type=revision&diff=668245898&oldid=667323870 in this article in 2015], was a direct copy-paste from a 2012 revision to another article, too, with no attribution per [[WP:CWW]]. In terms of general RS, the source was published by a small indie publisher Lynne Rienner and the work itself includes various dramatic, exaggerated language and some rather unique conjecture theories, so it's a questionable source at best.

In the source, the context and lead-up of the particular text in this Wiki article is a strange association fallacy that a relatively insignificant (especially to the conclusion made) figure al-Husri, who served under the pro-British monarchy and he had not been in Iraq since 1941 (the monarchy continued to rule until 1958), was a sort of overarching absolutist who determined and influenced the course of Iraqi baathists' (who were, among others, persecuted by the monarchy) policies and ideology and ties it in with a couple passing mentions of unrelated and mutually exclusive events. Nor was Husri even affiliated with the Baathists, but rather with a government that persecuted them. While they may have shared a couple specific ideals common in the Arab world at that time such as closer ties between Arab states, Halliday makes a profound stretch. The overall passage in the book itself is a hand-waving and inaccurate / minimal coverage aside to the topic to make a unique claim with exceptional implications and with further hand-waving, tie it to a couple unrelated events, all of this within a few sentences. Curiously, there's no mention of [[Michel Aflaq]] in that passage and no more than one fleeting reference in the whole book, who unlike al-Husri had significant influence on the Iraqi baath branch and was the founder of Baathism as a whole, nor the Nasserist influence on Baathists in exile in Nasser's Egypt.

This is striking in a book called ''Nation and Religion in the Mideast'', considering Aflaq is generally credited with being one of the more influential ideologues of the modern Mideast while greater attention is given to minor, lesser-known figures erroneously tied in a substantial manner to groups and governments. Nor is there any point made of decades of poor, sometimes hostile, relations between Iran and Iraq such as Iran's support of militants and civil war in Iraq among other things that led to propaganda and actions Halliday alludes to, though such things were conducted by both nations. Another point is the content is clear it was a sentiment between countries (Iran and Iraq) despite passingly conflating this with race so it appears out-of-place here and Halliday appears to contradict himself. Juxtapositions and better cases can be made such as claiming the US Democratic party's and Roosevelt's rather dehumanizing propaganda against Japanese and internment of Japanese-Americans to be pure racism by the highest leadership of the US, but the evident reality of this was motivated by poor relations and armed conflict between the two nations. This is despite Japan having been homogeneously Japanese and the only largely Japanese country in the world such that for Roosevelt to be against Japan could be argued as synonymous with racism against Japanese culture, albeit erroneously or controversially. US Presidents such as Bush and Trump have had formal, devastating anti-Iran policies, but like described in the source about the Iraqis this was on the basis of one country versus another. Considering actions even by 20th century Iran such as the takeover and dismantling of the [[Emirate of Arabistan]] on the Persian Gulf, it's quite a stretch by Halliday to spend a few strong words to brush it off as a "chauvinist myth" (no mention of this emirate or Iranian state's actions are present in the book either, fittingly). Again, this copy-pasted content in this article is Halliday's own strange associations and redflag-leaning claim with next to no substantiation between Husri and everything else he states. The inclusion of redflag and uncyclopedic trivia i.e. the Flies pamphlet, that has been problematic on Wikipedia in general and also led to an article's deletion, does not help the argument for the content either and frankly does not have a place on Wiki. Other points can be made, but overall this is an evident mix of [[WP:REDFLAG]], [[WP:ONUS]], [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]], [[WP:INDISCRIMINATE]] in addition to the it being a poor source both in general and specific to the content, and evident copyright violation. [[User:Saucysalsa30|Saucysalsa30]] ([[User talk:Saucysalsa30|talk]]) 19:28, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:28, 17 January 2021

RfC

Light bulb iconBAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:13, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted renaming as "Arab supremacy"

I have reverted the renaming of this article as "Arab supremacy". It is not an obviously uncontroversial move and would require discussion and consensus. My own first reaction is that this move would transform the scope of the article and require major restructuring and rewriting, not to mention the problems we would have - rather like those being seen at White privilege - in debating what "Arab supremacy" is (for example, a justifiable source of pride, a regrettable bias, a danger to world peace, or a useful concept for scholars). Such a discussion could well turn nasty and the editor who made such a move could find their motives called into question, whether for thinking such an article title appropriate or for provoking conflict. NebY (talk) 16:28, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with your first point because i checked the content before the move and the scope is roughly the same. Your second point is pure speculation. Pass a Method talk 16:44, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

rfc

I propose moving this page to "Arab supremacy". Do you support or oppose? Pass a Method talk 16:14, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Other racial groups are titled the same way, i.e. white supremacy and black supremacy Pass a Method talk 16:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline As there is no such a thing as an Arab ethnic group. The peoples of the Arab World are to diverse to stuff them together and call it "Arab supremacy". It is not the same as Arab nationalism and Pan-Islamism, where they feel connected in respectively language and religion. Racism in the Arab world refers to discrimination inside the Arab world, regardless of the ethnic groups within and culture. And by the way, the lemma "Arab supremacy" is just an Islamophobic term without any academic value. Runehelmet (talk) 15:17, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Even assuming that there is such a thing as a racial group, as your question does, Arabs are not one, so the examples are not parallel. Furthermore, racism, the belief that other peoples are inferior, is different from X supremacy, the belief that people X ought to run everything because they're superior. It's not what this article is about.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:52, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose As above, plus a few points:
  1. Our "Racism in" articles range from Racism in Argentina to Racism in the United Kingdom. The argument that we should change this simply because we have white supremacy and black supremacy articles is so superficial that I remain perplexed as to the thinking of the proposer.
  2. The connotations of "supremacy" vary accordiing to context; a historian may use it to describe a period of domination or hegemony without implying supremacism. Our use of "racism" here is much clearer, especially in its inclusion of the local and the day-to-day, and follows both general and academic usage.
  3. The article would have to be thoroughly rewritten. It has been developed to discuss racism, not supremacism, as shown by the repeated use of the terms "racism", "racial" and "race". Likewise the sources and quotations used are concerned with racism, not supremacism.
  4. The article has a specific geographic focus, which the proposal would remove. NebY (talk) 14:13, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, and strongly so, per everyone above, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and actual RS usage. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 08:42, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - There are a fairly large number of articles titled "Racism in ..." e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=racism+in - so a precedent has been established. Certainly documenting racism is an encyclopedic topic. The title "Racism in ..." seems plainer than "supremacy". BTW: the Wikipedia:Requested moves process is available for requesting page re-names. On the other hand, lots of folks also use the RfC process. --Noleander (talk) 17:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I Oppose per (the support rationale) of Pass a Method and (the decline rationale) alf laylah wa laylah, and Noleander's comment, but register my categorical opposition to the rationale of the first oppose, the "decline" of Runehelmet, for 1) drawing Pan-Arabism on solely linguistic grounds (whereas language largely defines Arab ethnicity, along with point 2), and 2) drawing Islamism purely across religious grounds, when it is often united by ethnicity and language (historically, at least: look at the Ba'athists and Sadat's Nasser's regime in Egypt: there are striking similarities in "Pan" ideologies even if very few in religion), and 3) for comments regarding the so-called "Islamophobia", a politically-incorrect, illiberal term that is used - by poor analogy with homophobia, and by even poorer analogy with pre-homophobia actual "phobia" - to emotionally indict all criticism of Islam. Further, Islam is minority-Arab, even if Arab Muslims seem to think that theirs is the position of supremacy due to their tongue having in it their holy book; but Arabs are largely Muslim. Not all Arab racism has to do with Islam, and not all Islamic religiously-based (or, more accurately, rationalized or justified, given that the Koran actually issues some scathing remarks towards racism within the ummah) racism is Arab. /sopabox I received an invite to this RfC from the FRS. I am previously uninvolved. St John Chrysostom Δόξατω Θεώ
  • I also move for a snow close (even though this has been open for fourteen days), as there have been no supports beyond the initial proposal and a wave of opposes. St John Chrysostom Δόξατω Θεώ 08:35, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This RfC isn't well-formed. Are there reliable sources that refer to "Arab supremacy"? Linguistic parity with other articles about various racist groups really isn't sufficient to motivate this change. The Editorial Voice (talk) 22:39, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. "Arab supremacy" is not a thing and, to the extent it was, that namespace would be about American prison gangs or a massively-inappropriate POV article arguing the factual racial superiority of Arabs - the appropriate NPOV article discussing that racist view would still be here at "Arab racism" or "Racism in the Arab world". "White supremacy" and "black supremacy" are just bad attempts to reformat the white supremacist and black supremacist movements in the US without discussing it in the context of the entire country; they don't need more company.
  • It's been a year. Can we get a close? — LlywelynII 06:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why are so many hard core Zionist Jewish nationalists being cited on this page?

I am not in anyway disputing the reality of Arab racism, but why are open Jewish ethnic nationalists like Alan Dershowitz and Irwin Cotler being cited as sources?

There are lots of Anti-Zionist Anti-Racist Jewish people you could cite, but instead you cite Jews who subscribe to an ideology of ethnic nationalism on a page about racism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.28.97 (talk) 05:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is because they are notable. If you know any notable person, who criticized these 2 personalities. You can cite them. OccultZone (Talk) 05:10, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Alan Dershowitz and Irwin Cotler can hardly be considered unbiased sources as they have a well know agenda to support Israel that overrides impartiality. In fact I fail to see how this topic can be covered, racism within the Arab world, using American authors without Arabic backgrounds. A review of potential Arab (writing English) authors, reveals a clear preference for writing on racism towards Arabs by others. This article needs sources of Arabic origin which likely are written in Arabic to start with. Without that it is verging on Orientialism. Akayani (talk) 11:19, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Good sources, terrible prose

I read this article while Wikisurfing the other day. It is free of original research and POV pushing and, from my visits in the Middle East, seems absolutely true regarding the unfortunate racial situation there. However, the writing here is just plain awful. I at first assumed that this was written in another language and then copy-pasted into Google Translate, but then I realized pretty much all the sources are in English. I don't mean to offend anybody, but this article needs to be almost entirely rewritten. Not to actually change what it's saying, but simply to make it readable. The punctuation alone makes me want to scream. If there are no objections, I might start rewriting several sections sometime in the next week or so. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Been watching this page for a long time, and editing. I've always thought that this article has potential, it can be expanded as well. OccultZone (Talk) 04:26, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It can, a lot. Like, a lot a lot. That's very unfortunate but it's true; there's a lot of reliable sources about this topic, and the different facets of racism there are notable. For the time being I'm mainly thinking about the quality of sentence structure, though. If nobody else minds, I might try to amend that starting from the last sections of the article moving up. MezzoMezzo (talk) 10:00, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Author draws parallel between Arab nationalism and Turkish nationalism, both were "likewise evolving into the "racial" stage, the ideal being a great "Pan-Arab" empire, embracing not merely the ethnically Arab peninsula-homeland, Syria, and Mesopotamia, but also the Arabized regions of Egypt, Tripoli, North Africa and the Sudan." [25]

Lothrop Stoddard draws a parallel between Arab nationalism...

It's not good enough to start a whole section with 'Author' you look it up. Where is 'Arabizing' defined? Akayani (talk) 12:35, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is Palestine no longer part of the Arab world?

Is Palestine no longer part of the Arab world? Is Israel no longer in the Middle East. While I can see why adding 'Pandora's Box' to the article is perhaps worthy of avoiding there should be at least some explanation of the exemption. Akayani (talk) 11:16, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The officially acclaimed Palestine territory has existence, it has been recognized by a number of countries. OccultZone (Talk) 11:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly—It is hard to justify it being ignored. Akayani (talk) 11:44, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Better separation of racism from religious intolerance.

Racism and religious intolerance are jumbled together into a messy lack of separation. As the topic is "Racism in the Arab world" it should deal with exactly this or the name of the topic changed to "Racism and other Othering in the Arab world". Egyptians are certainly treated as the Other in nations in the region, I doubt the root of this can actually be considered to be racism but socioeconomic Othering based on a willingness to work for less dollars.

For this article to have clarity it needs for divide up what is being said into nations, topics; racism, religious intolerance and Othering and not mix this with that into a fruitcake claiming Arabian racism. It makes some excellent points but the mixing dilute what is actual racism. Far better it the article make clear what is and what isn't racism in a context of Othering. It does not mention, for example, that Othering based on country of origin is via spoken language rather than 'look'.

"Racist incidents by Arabs" This for a start should be "Racist incidents by Nation in the Middle East" Akayani (talk) 12:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, there is nothing about religion in the whole article. It has been largely avoided. OccultZone (Talk) 12:30, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Groups that identified themselves as neither Arab nor Muslim had it even worse: Southern Sudanese, Copts, Jews, and Assyrians were plunged into a protracted nightmare that saw their communities ground into anonymity, forcing many to emigrate permanently[citation needed].

There're historic racial divisions,[43] racial and religious prejudices in Iraq, including on Kurds, on Shia and the Marsh Arabs.[44] (There're? There are...)

The racialised discourse prevalent in modern times was alien to pre-Islamic Arabs and early Muslims. The Arabs did not have a racial typology to divide people from different ethnic groups and specific races. Racial discourse began towards the end of the seventh century as the Muslim Arabs came into contact with the Biblical 'curse of Ham' story and the works of the Ancient Greek and Persian philosophers discussing race.[37]

I don't call that avoided. But I don't class religious prejudice as racism. I'm not suggesting the balance is wrong but the failure to separate issues is a fail if the article is ever expanded. Akayani (talk) 12:45, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense, you can definitely reword it. Once I've re-checked those references I will do that myself. OccultZone (Talk) 13:04, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Gulf Arab youth have engaged in violent attacks... no active links

This would be a better reference on the topic than a signal line without a link.

Terrifying Muslims: Race and Labor in the South Asian Diaspora

Junaid Rana

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=jfFGJmCU5I4C

OT: OccultZone, yes I happy for you to edit as you see fit. I think we can make this a bit more worthy as my experience in ME is that Arabs aren't particularly 'racist' at all. There are issues of Othering based on other factors. Akayani (talk) 13:27, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Defining racism

Accounts of racism, Essed argues (1990, pp. 3–4, 60–65), locate the narrators as well as their experiences within the social context of their everyday life. According to Essed, who conducted a comparative study of educated black women in the United States and the Netherlands in which she analysed their experiences of everyday racism, once it is recognised that racial oppression is inherent in the nature of the social order, it becomes apparent that...

the real racial drama is not racism but the fact that racism is an everyday problem … To expose racism in the system, we must analyse ambiguous meanings, expose hidden currents, and generally question what seems normal or acceptable. (Essed, 1990, p. 10)

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1350463042000190994#.U39NuCjfItU

That looks like something that could be added into the start of the article as a means of binding all Othering into a unified topic.

Akayani (talk) 13:52, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Umayyad Caliphate

The Umayyad Caliphate known as their ethic nationalist practices/laws as far as I have remembered. Hence, I want add them to the "See also" section. Do you have a comment? Lamedumal (talk) 08:45, 12 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Lamedumal: We shall need a new section for that. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 11:03, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The main problem of racism in the Arab world is the colonial settler state of Israel

... and that should thus be the main topic of this article. Otherwise it looks like a racist slur to justify colonial intervention against the Arab nation. --L.Willms (talk) 07:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Sudan

There needs to be a discussion of racism in Sudan by "Arab" Sudanese against "black" Sudanese. I think the reason that there isn't this discussion is that in the US the vast majority of native Sudanese (North or South) would be considered "black." But in Sudan there is a profound division between those who identify as ARab versus those who identify as black; this division has led to genocide. It should be discussed in the article. Steeletrap (talk) 06:04, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Both are black how can there be racism? A black person speaking Arabic is not technically Arab. Magherbin (talk) 01:55, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

News: Blackface "family-friendly TV programming" during Ramadan

This issue has attracted some attention and perhaps deserves a place here, the (disgusting) issue being the usage of 'family-friendly' programming in some Arab countries during Ramadan that essentially promotes racist views through "humour" including blackface :

[Al Jazeera has a pretty good article documenting what happened].

Some other testimony:

[being black in Egypt in the time of Black Panther (the movie), according to one (non-black) Egyptian writer for Wa-Post], [treatment of black migrant workers], [Lami El-Hanan's opinions, in Afropunk], [role of Gaddafi in muting criticism by the African Union], [in Arab communities in Detroit, which obviously is not the Arab World, but has connections to it] [more on what it's like to be black in Egypt]

Hope good use can be made of at least some of these. Cheers all, ---- Calthinus (talk) 06:04, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright violation and RS+VER+INDISCRIMINATE issues

The Halliday section is a practically verbatim copy-paste from the copyrighted source, which is a copyright violation WP:CV and must not be present under legal requirements. The content, included in this article in 2015, was a direct copy-paste from a 2012 revision to another article, too, with no attribution per WP:CWW. In terms of general RS, the source was published by a small indie publisher Lynne Rienner and the work itself includes various dramatic, exaggerated language and some rather unique conjecture theories, so it's a questionable source at best.

In the source, the context and lead-up of the particular text in this Wiki article is a strange association fallacy that a relatively insignificant (especially to the conclusion made) figure al-Husri, who served under the pro-British monarchy and he had not been in Iraq since 1941 (the monarchy continued to rule until 1958), was a sort of overarching absolutist who determined and influenced the course of Iraqi baathists' (who were, among others, persecuted by the monarchy) policies and ideology and ties it in with a couple passing mentions of unrelated and mutually exclusive events. Nor was Husri even affiliated with the Baathists, but rather with a government that persecuted them. While they may have shared a couple specific ideals common in the Arab world at that time such as closer ties between Arab states, Halliday makes a profound stretch. The overall passage in the book itself is a hand-waving and inaccurate / minimal coverage aside to the topic to make a unique claim with exceptional implications and with further hand-waving, tie it to a couple unrelated events, all of this within a few sentences. Curiously, there's no mention of Michel Aflaq in that passage and no more than one fleeting reference in the whole book, who unlike al-Husri had significant influence on the Iraqi baath branch and was the founder of Baathism as a whole, nor the Nasserist influence on Baathists in exile in Nasser's Egypt.

This is striking in a book called Nation and Religion in the Mideast, considering Aflaq is generally credited with being one of the more influential ideologues of the modern Mideast while greater attention is given to minor, lesser-known figures erroneously tied in a substantial manner to groups and governments. Nor is there any point made of decades of poor, sometimes hostile, relations between Iran and Iraq such as Iran's support of militants and civil war in Iraq among other things that led to propaganda and actions Halliday alludes to, though such things were conducted by both nations. Another point is the content is clear it was a sentiment between countries (Iran and Iraq) despite passingly conflating this with race so it appears out-of-place here and Halliday appears to contradict himself. Juxtapositions and better cases can be made such as claiming the US Democratic party's and Roosevelt's rather dehumanizing propaganda against Japanese and internment of Japanese-Americans to be pure racism by the highest leadership of the US, but the evident reality of this was motivated by poor relations and armed conflict between the two nations. This is despite Japan having been homogeneously Japanese and the only largely Japanese country in the world such that for Roosevelt to be against Japan could be argued as synonymous with racism against Japanese culture, albeit erroneously or controversially. US Presidents such as Bush and Trump have had formal, devastating anti-Iran policies, but like described in the source about the Iraqis this was on the basis of one country versus another. Considering actions even by 20th century Iran such as the takeover and dismantling of the Emirate of Arabistan on the Persian Gulf, it's quite a stretch by Halliday to spend a few strong words to brush it off as a "chauvinist myth" (no mention of this emirate or Iranian state's actions are present in the book either, fittingly). Again, this copy-pasted content in this article is Halliday's own strange associations and redflag-leaning claim with next to no substantiation between Husri and everything else he states. The inclusion of redflag and uncyclopedic trivia i.e. the Flies pamphlet, that has been problematic on Wikipedia in general and also led to an article's deletion, does not help the argument for the content either and frankly does not have a place on Wiki. Other points can be made, but overall this is an evident mix of WP:REDFLAG, WP:ONUS, WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, WP:INDISCRIMINATE in addition to the it being a poor source both in general and specific to the content, and evident copyright violation. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 19:28, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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