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Deleting chronological information from the lead

I disagree with this edit which deleted his denial about what happened in “the 1970s”. I think it’s really rotten that this lead omits the timeframe. MrX knows very well that a zillion sources say this is primarily about what happened in his 30s, the Nelson yearbook says 1977. Instead we’re giving readers the idea that he is accused of doing this stuff recently. Wikipedia policy is to “Fix problems if you can, flag or remove them if you can't.” Obviously, User:MrX could insert additional sourcing if he felt any need for it. Instead we mislead readers. The body of this article explicitly says “he was in his 30s“, and explicitly discusses the 1970s. Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:10, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please show me at least 3 reliable sources that say "Moore acknowledged that he may have approached and dated teenagers during the 1970s" and I will be happy to self-revert.- MrX 22:38, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As you must know, I could easily list over a hundred such sources, some of which are already in this BLP article body. I'd rather not waste my time again trying to convince you of what is very obvious. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Son Caleb Elisha Moore - arrested seven times between 2011 & 2015

Caleb Elisha Moore, 24, son of Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore, works at the Foundation for Moral Law that his father founded. He has been arrested seven times since 2011, most recently for drug possession in Troy on Sunday, March 15, 2015. Troy Police Department.^[1] Jeffery Thomas 03:07, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Dean, Charles J. "People throw rocks at judges who live in glass houses. Should they?". AL.com.

No, no, no. Don't include this. Children of BLPs who aren't otherwise notable shouldn't be mentioned at all, and an arrest for drug possession definitely isn't a reason to include it. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:08, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

He isn't some underage kid, but a 27-year old political operative, one of the handful of people who work at the far-right "foundation" that his father founded. His lengthy criminal record has also received a reasonable amount of coverage in RS.[1] All things considered, I don't see a problem with including it. It would be different if he were some teenager who weren't working politically on behalf of his father. --Tataral (talk) 04:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, the previous talk page discussion about it is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Roy_Moore/Archive_1#Son As I said there, I wouldn't mind saying "Caleb has a lengthy arrest record on various charges." But that's all. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:15, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Leave it out totally. The guy is a private citizen, not notable on his own, and his arrest record is not relevant to this BLP of his father. --MelanieN (talk) 17:32, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statements made about Putin edit quote with additional word

Article has the quote as 'Moore has strongly praised Russian President Vladimir Putin, stating that he is maybe "more akin to me than I know [myself]".' The addition of the word "[myself]" is not a part of the original quote, nor is it a part of the quote as it appears in either of the cited sources. It also seems to me that it doesn't add to the quote and may change its meaning.

ALERT: BLP violation in the lede sentence

Resolved. --MelanieN (talk) 18:13, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I just reverted an addition to the lede sentence which I consider to be a BLP violation. The other editor immediately re-added it. I could revert again, claiming BLP as justification for violating 1RR but I would prefer not to push the envelope like that. Can someone else please remove it? I have asked the other editor to self-revert but I doubt they will. Thanks. --MelanieN (talk) 17:31, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, User:Galobtter. --MelanieN (talk) 17:36, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I now realize I may have also done one revert earlier today. But it's definitely a big BLP issue, big enough to revert first, ask questions later. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:38, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

conceding defeat

Detailed information about how Moore refused to concede defeat to Doug Jones (and then produced a video about how god would solve it all) is missing from the article. There are dozens of very reliable sources writing in-depth about this refusal (e.g. BBC, CNN, TIME, the National Review and the Salt Lake Tribune), but the article only mentions it in the lede for a half sentence.104.163.155.42 (talk) 09:36, 15 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's a temporary situation; we don't need to discuss it in any depth. WP:NOTNEWS. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:43, 15 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTNEWS does not mention your rationale.104.163.155.42 (talk) 10:57, 15 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

ADA years

Moore's attorney Phillip L. Jauregui per https://www.cbsnews.com/news/roy-moores-attorney-disputes-yearbook-note/

clarified that although the yearbook note says "D.A." (standing for "district attorney") beside his signature, Moore actually served as "assistant district attorney" at the time.

The yearbook entry says Christmas 1977. I do not see any mention of "assistant district attorney" in this article. Is anyone able to find info on what year he began/ended being an ADA? This seems useful to mention somewhere in his career just to see whether or not Jauregui is right about him being an ADA on 25 Dec 1977. ScratchMarshall (talk) 07:01, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes he was an ADA from '77 to '82. Which would not have precluded him from signing a yearbook with DA. O3000 (talk) 12:50, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This range appears to be supported by the WashPo article:

This account is based on interviews with more than 30 people who said they knew Moore between 1977 and 1982, when he served as an assistant district attorney for Etowah County in northern Alabama, where he grew up.

I'm wondering if we have an earlier sources providing this range though, prior to this year.

1979 happens 2 years after 1977 and 3 years before 1982. I'm not sure why an ADA would sign something DA... and also it appears that Corfman and her lawyer said she added D.A. so if she did that, it would have presumably been 1982 or later, when he ceased being an ADA and became a DA.

To know the upper range, do we know what years he was a DA for? 1982-???? presumably? ScratchMarshall (talk) 16:27, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

He was never a DA. He ran for DA and lost. O3000 (talk) 17:00, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Huh... this makes me wonder why she would add D.A. then. I also found this:

"In October 1977, he was appointed deputy district attorney."

From https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/two-more-women-describe-unwanted-overtures-by-roy-moore-at-alabama-mall/2017/11/15/2a1da432-ca24-11e7-b0cf-7689a9f2d84e_story.html?utm_term=.2f3c0da10903

I'm not sure what a deputy district attorney is. My best guess is it is some synonym for assistant district attorney ? If it's the same thing then we can specify it was October when he began, rather than just a vague '77. ScratchMarshall (talk) 17:11, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Could be he exaggerated his position (how unusual for a male to try to impress a female), or she didn't know the difference, or something else. It's not for us to speculate or analyze. O3000 (talk) 17:16, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted defamatory BLP violation statements "has been called"

Using the passive voice as with "has been called" is a sneaky way to introduce defamatory allegations. For example, where is there any proof that Moore has an irrational fear (phobia) of homosexuals? I deleted part of a hit-paragraph. The whole paragraph should be deleted. (PeacePeace (talk) 20:56, 25 December 2017 (UTC))[reply]

The statements are well sourced. And most of this has already been discussed extensively. Volunteer Marek 21:03, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(and attempting to argue semantics over terms like "homophobia" is not exactly gonna help you here). Volunteer Marek 21:03, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Passive voice is fine with inline attribution, as in “Joe has been called a doofus by Jim”. But merely saying “Joe has been called a doofus” without any inline attribution is atrociously bad writing. Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:09, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure the writing could be improved, but the content you removed was perfectly verifiable in many sources. There is no standard of proof that applies to Wikipedia articles other than verifiability in reliable sources. There is no need for attribution in this case. It would be impractical to list all of the people have described Moore's views as homophobic, racist, antisemitic and so on.- MrX 21:55, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Either state it in wikivoice or give some hint about who says it. Don’t be weaselly. Say Moore’s opponents said it, or most reliable sources said it, or whatever. “Some people who I’d rather not describe say MrX is a doofus” is weaselly. Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:59, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As already noted, it'd be impossible to list ALL the people who have said it. To apply some category to them would also be OR. Volunteer Marek 22:03, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: I disagree that we are limited to the two choice that you list. As a summary, the material is reasonably written as a general statement.- MrX 22:05, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Has any reliable source said it? If not, then say “unreliable sources say....” That way readers won’t be misled by our weaseliness to think reliable sources say it. Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:07, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Trump opposed Moore before backing him

This edit strike me as a violation of WP:NPOV. If we want to say in the lead that Trump backed Moore, we ought to also say that Trump initially opposed Moore and tried to prevent Moore from being nominated. See “Roy Moore defeats Trump-backed Sen. Luther Strange in Alabama GOP primary runoff”, ABC News (September 26, 2017). Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:54, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit was a violation of WP:V and WP:NPOV. Not only does the article you cite not say that Trump opposed Moore. It even quotes Trump as tweeting:

“

Congratulations to Roy Moore on his Republican Primary win in Alabama. Luther Strange started way back & ran a good race. Roy, WIN in Dec!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 27, 2017

”

I assume that this was an honest mistake on your part and not an attempt to insert false information into the article.- MrX 22:00, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you are merely unacquainted with the facts. It is customary for a loser to congratulate the winner. Trump lost in his effort to defeat Moore during the primary against Strange. You seriously deny that? If you don’t deny it, then apparently you have no non-null reason to object to the edit, and I will restore it with the citation given. WP:NPOV requires us to mention more facts about Trump than the ones that put him in a poor light, if there are other well-publicized facts that are highly relevant to this BLP. Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:04, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You're saying Trump was a loser? You do realize he was not a candidate in the primary race for U.S. Senator from Alabama, right?- MrX 22:25, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Are you ever going to acknowledge that Trump lost in his effort to get Luther Strange reelected? Ever? Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:28, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No.- MrX 22:30, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Dean, Charles J. "People throw rocks at judges who live in glass houses. Should they?". AL.com.

[1]

@@ Line 103: / Line 103: @@
 :::You're saying ''Trump'' was a loser? You do realize he was not a candidate in the primary race for U.S. Senator from Alabama, right?- [[user talk:MrX|MrX]] 22:25, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
 ::::Are you ever going to acknowledge that Trump lost in his effort to get Luther Strange reelected?  Ever?[[User:Anythingyouwant|&#32;Anythingyouwant]] ([[User talk:Anythingyouwant|talk]]) 22:28, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
+:::::No.- [[user talk:MrX|MrX]] 22:30, 25 December 2017 (UTC)