Talk:2022 COVID-19 protests in China

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wei4Earth (talk | contribs) at 23:50, 28 November 2022 (→‎Comprehensive timeline of protests: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Need for images

As of now, I am having difficulty finding fair use images for the article. If people can find or upload images covering the ongoing events, that would be very helpful to convey the current scale of protests. --LatakiaHill (talk) 06:12, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To specify this request, as the current header image showing the initial protest in Urumchi is going to be deleted soon, there is a need for images/videos of the mass protests and marches in Chinese cities, and not just student vigils. LatakiaHill (talk) 20:54, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming title?

(Reposting here since the name got moved back) @維基百科最忠誠的反對者 had redirected the page from previously COVID-19 protests in China to Anti-Dynamic Zero Policy Movement in China. While I agree that it is more descriptive, I am worried that it is a bit of a mouthful and might be unintuitive for English-speakers outside China looking to learn more about the recent events. The article itself, related articles such as COVID-19 lockdown in China, and most news articles do not mention the Chinese phrase "dynamic zero COVID", and I do not think the original title would be misleading to a native English speaker given other articles such as COVID-19 protests in the United Kingdom etc. I do however agree that the title could be renamed to something more focused, since I think that the demands and reasoning of the ongoing protests are pretty distinct from protests elsewhere in the world. I appreciate other suggestions that people might have to rename the title (or keep the current one if it works). LatakiaHill (talk) 12:57, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This page needs a lengthy protection so that only admins can make edits. It seems this one person is causing problems (ban evasion being a perfect example). 2604:B000:B137:FF36:A951:E2F9:2B49:BBC1 (talk) 16:14, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@LatakiaHill：First of all, I would like to thank you for informing me of this discussion. In terms of its scope, this is indeed different from other protest movements of Covid-19 in other countries (e.g. calls for the ouster of Xi Jinping、the Chinese communist government and the opening up of press freedom).But while it is my fault for not taking into account the uniformity and perception of other language Wikipedias.
This incident in Chinese wikipedia page is, strictly speaking, more about the massive popular protest movement since November (it is already a separate event), although this page is combined with the Chinese Wikipedia page in the Meta-Wiki database, it is in fact a subset of the same concept， similar to the difference between the Chinese democracy movement and the Tiananmen Incident.
If this page was about three years of Covid-19 protests in China, I would support keeping the name as it is. But if it is about the November protests, I would suggest creating a new page. Of course, if there are better suggestions, I am always open to them. WMLO (talk) 18:23, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removing phrase

"in response to measures taken by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and the Chinese government..."

Mentioning the party is redundant here. The party is the one in control of the government, so it's just as factual and more concise to just replace it with "in response to measures taken by the Chinese government" and perhaps remove bias in the process (seeing the word 'communist' in particular, when the CPC is widely agreed upon to not be communist).

Don't want to edit it myself if it's unpopular so asking here. DevonianShark (talk) 16:40, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@DevonianShark: It is controversial since at the very least CCP still declares that it is a communist party holding a variant of communism. ときさき くるみ not because they are easy, but because they are hard 16:56, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of what China calls themselves, I just think its simply not relevant to this topic at all DevonianShark (talk) 17:05, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed it. Mucube (talk) 17:38, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 27 November 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Moved. MSN12102001 (talk) 11:55, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Protests against COVID-19 lockdowns in China → 2022 protests against COVID-19 lockdowns in China – There have been sporadic protests against lockdowns in China going back over the past two years, but the subject of this article seems to be the events of November 2022. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:33, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Adding 2022 would keep it focused to the current events. Would also prevent scope creep and confusion if people try to add in info from previous years down the line. --LatakiaHill (talk) 18:06, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose If there have been earlier but smaller protests then we should start by adding details of them into this article. If the details of each wave get large, then we can split as needed. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:07, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It helps to specify timing, as the pandemic has already lasted almost three years per WHO criteria — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ppt91 (talk • contribs) 19:32, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It makes it more clear what this article is about. – Anne drew 20:26, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. A lot clearer name then the current one BigRed606 (talk) 20:35, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest — 2022 COVID-19 lockdown protests in China. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 21:38, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, to make timing more clear, as others stated above. Also the suggestion by User:ElijahPepe is better-worded, in my opinion. Jaystjohn (talk) 22:02, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - though I think that prior lockdown protests should be expanded upon within the background section. Also I prefer User:ElijahPepe's name. Knightoftheswords281 (talk) 22:12, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • support per nom 94rain Talk 22:29, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Without the year 2022, the reader may initially think that this covers protests since early 2020. Boud (talk) 00:08, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support the title may refer to a different year. adding the 2022 makes it easier to understand
    Rainbow Galaxy POC (talk) 00:50, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: There had been many protests from various cities of China on a much smaller scale, however these protests are still significant. Yxuibs (talk) 01:01, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This article specifically deals with those protests beginning in November, 2022. Yeoutie (talk) 02:03, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The article is about the anti-lockdown protests in November 2022, not any of the earlier ones. Mucube (talk) 03:04, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. One specific protest is focused on here; adding a date would distinguish it from talking about COVID protests in China in general. Foxtail286 (talk) 03:08, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Article also specifies specific date in lead sentence. Silikonz (alt)💬 02:35, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, Associating the protests with the date they happen provides more useful information to Wikipedia users. Truthanado (talk) 03:11, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to 2022 China protests. These are the only notable protests in China in 2022, and the description is unnecessary as there's no need to disambiguate; see 2021–2022 Iranian protests and 2017–2021 Iranian protests. Lightspecs (talk) 05:08, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Support. I agree with editors, adding the date clarifies some details of the article, and there might be COVID protests before this one. Thenewright22 (talk) 06:31, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Support I agree with Lightspecs. I am not clear these are only covid protests, as they seem to be democracy related too. Might just group with other protests this year, unless they get very big and notable on their own (not yet). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:42, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Support: The so-called "against COVID-19 lockdowns" is just a surface excuse under that evil regime. Now people already criticized the dictator Xi and the Communist party and call them to step down. The real core issue now is about opposing one-person ruling and bloody one-party tyranny for decades. They ask for democracy, freedom, and rule of law to solve all those abnormal situations. --Wildcursive (talk) 08:03, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support moving to 2022 protests against COVID-19 lockdowns in China. I suppose this won't discourage people from writing articles about protests before 2022. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 08:21, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Anti-science protests

When protests against lockdowns happened in the West they were labeled anti-science. I remember this rhetoric being used on Wikipedia as well. I think there should be consistency on this. Either anti-lockdown is anti-science or it is not. NatriumGedrogt (talk) 01:54, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When protests occurred in mid-2020, the motives, the intentions, and the consequences were markedly different to a protest occurring in November 2022, multiple years after widespread adoption of mRNA vaccines in most countries. But I'm sure you were already aware of that. Either way, what suggestion do you have for modifying the article? It seems like you're just soapboxing rather than providing any useful feedback on the article, Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. --benlisquareT•C•E 02:27, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The protests in China aren't anti-science, they're more anti-authoritarian and pro-democracy. Mucube (talk) 02:31, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have any sources to back-up your theory that governments introduce restriction of citizens' movements are part of a plot to control people? Mintus590 (talk) 18:16, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree here, as the protests in China generally recognize the efficacy of masks, vaccines and lockdowns. The general purpose here is not to deny the methods; it's to question the necessity of said methods. Foxtail286 (talk) 03:12, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
False equivalency. The protests in Western countries were labeled as anti-science because their motives were inherently anti-science; they denied that lockdowns had any effect on the spread of COVID-19 and, in some cases, denied the existence of COVID-19 entirely. The protests in China are occurring as a result of China's zero-COVID policy, which had a detrimental effect on people during the pandemic. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 03:28, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Effects from the 2022 World Cup

It might be reason enough to believe the protests were influenced by the 2022 FIFA World Cup. Viewers in China saw large crowds of people not in lockdown, and the Chinese public reacted to that. It's the old reaction to: "If they can do that, why couldn't we?" [1]. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 04:52, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source does support -- kind of -- a connection by mentioning a WeChat article. Hmm. Artoria2e5 🌉 05:54, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Status of the New Left?

When these kinda protests crop up, the liberalism movement in China tends to get the focus. But given that there were videos of workers singing the Internationale as well as the anthem, and workers fighting Foxconn and holding up pictures of Mao, I think New Left Maoists and other New Left factions may have a much more significant role in these protests. Genabab (talk) 06:51, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is a very good point but media coverage on the Chinese New Left tends to be pretty poor in English sadly, there are journals such as Chuang which focus on it but its likely sources like that won't be available for quite a while compared to the kind of instantaneous 24/7 updates from international Anglophone media outlets. I would add however that these protests largely appear spontaneous rather than being "lead" by anyone so the use of imagery is more likely because the imagery is just well-grounded in China. Totalibe (talk) 22:49, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]


"Dismantlement of the Chinese Communist Party"

I suggest changing "* Dismantlement of the Chinese Communist Party" to "End of One Party Rule" in the goals section. I am not aware of protestors specifically requesting the Dismantlement of the Party, and if they have said so explicitly, I think there should be a citation. Παραλλάξιος (talk) 09:52, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention, a good chunk of the protestors are members of the Chinese New Left too. I don't think it's fair to say that they want the end of the Communist Party Genabab (talk) 10:01, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Name of the road in Shanghai

I’d like to point out that the English road name on the road signs in Shanghai goes by the pingying calls the road “Wulumuqi Rd (M)”, where M stands for Middle, as seen here, and not calling it by English as Urumuqi Rd in the article. Should we change it then? SBS6577P (talk) 11:34, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Road name translations have always been a mess; think also stuff like 中山 and 陕西 and 西藏. We could take the official name and add (Chinese: 乌鲁木齐中路; lit. 'Urumuqi Rd (M)') to keep the idea, but in my opinion that’s a bit excessive. Artoria2e5 🌉 15:18, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Keep the idea of the choice of the street having something to do with the fire.) Artoria2e5 🌉 15:25, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Factional and the dismantlement of the Communist Party

On account of the "merits further discussion comment" I'm making this sectio.

In addition to the above comments from Παραλλάξιος, but as a result of the videos of workers singing the Internationale (as is mentioned in the wiki page) as well as the anthem, alongside workers protesting private companies like Foxconn and holding up pictures of Mao, I do not think it is fair to say that there is a non-factional desire to dismantle the Communist Party. It seems like there is a role in the protests by the Chinese New Left and Maoists. While you *could* argue they may want to dismantle the party in the same way Indian Maoists oppose the Indian Communist Party, that would have a very different character to what more liberal protestors have in mind, not to mention that it is way too early to tell if this is the case. Genabab (talk) 13:35, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Echoing this as this was the main reason I was hesitant to add the removal of the CCP as a main goal in the infobox. However, this is just a built-in implicit angle of most reliable sources outside of China, and I wouldn't know how to bring in other voices without it becoming a bit soapboxy or doing original research. My personal experience says that part of what made this wave so popular was its direct and clear goal of ending zero-COVID lockdowns, something that resonated with many previously politically inactive. I think that to abstract that away by focusing on a minority presence misses the big picture. At the same time, I am also hesitant to identify say workers protesting at Zhengzhou as the Chinese New Left, as broader worker movements in China tend to draw on socialist imagery and are informed by socialist values, but do not identify with a moniker like New Maoist etc. I will keep an eye out for reliable sources that present a better overview of different/contending ideologies present in the protests. --LatakiaHill (talk) 17:13, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is overall worth considering that it is too early to tell, all things considered. These protests really started to kick off only recently. Maybe in a few days, more information will come out. Genabab (talk) 20:29, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, many sources in the article *do* have interviews with many people explaining that they are there simply because lockdowns pushed them too far, or will mention other political ideals. But to synthesize this in the article feels like original research a bit; maybe someone with more experience editing can help me. --LatakiaHill (talk) 17:16, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In line with the sourcing suggestion made in the "Dismantlement of the Chinese Communist Party" section, I’ve added articles which say the protesters have explicitly called for the resignation of Xi Jinping and the dismantlement of the CCP. If you think that those demands are merely factional, then you need to provide sources which explicitly say that. Otherwise your argument and proposed edits constitute original research. I am notifying User:Amigao of this discussion as that user was the one who made the “merits further discussion” comment Stormandfury (talk) 18:28, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
> If you think that those demands are merely factional, then you need to provide sources which explicitly say that.
That would assume your sources show that as well? But is there anything there that would suggest this is the majority view? Or the dominant view?
Sure, some people probably agree with it, but if people are going around singing the Internationale or saying "we want to keep the Communist Party, but we want this or that" it's clearly not a hegemonic view. Genabab (talk) 20:31, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The sources do say the protesters have explicitly called for the resignation of Xi Jinping and the dismantlement of the CCP. Just because the sources say those demands have been made by some of the protesters doesn’t make them “factional” anymore than the sources also saying the demand to end the lockdown restrictions have been supported by most of the protesters would them “hegemonic” (your word). No article that is part of the category into which this one also belongs (2022 protests) distinguishes the goals as stated in the article’s respective infobox along a majority-minority axis that you are proposing.
Once again, since you think that the demands related to Xi and the CCP are factional, you will need to provide sources which explicitly say that. Specifically, you will need to provide sources which say the role played by the Chinese New Left and Maoists in the protests proves that the Xi-CCP related demands are not factional. Failure to do either means your argument and proposed edits constitute original research. In addition, aside from your “factional” assertion being at this point unsourced, WP:ONUS stipulates that the “onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content” so the burden falls on you to get consensus for including your description of the Xi-CCP related demands as factional. Please stop reverting until you have done so. Stormandfury (talk) 22:44, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am unclear on WP's defition of "factional" so I will not contest this for now, but I think there is a risk of generalizing and conflating different protests; student vigils abroad (such as those focused on in the citations; Uni of HK, Shinjuku, Paris, etc) are very different from protests in China that often focus on the specific local lockdown policies. I'm deferring to others with more experience on WP here, but I do hope that the nuances of the ongoing protests can be captured. From both personal communication and Chinese sources that unfortunately wouldn't hold up as reliable sources for English Wikipedia, there is also a growing backlash and alienation over how abstract certain demands have become abroad (as also suggested in the cited Reuters article). --LatakiaHill (talk) 20:43, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
it is worth considering that the sources provided, with the exception of AP, say that "some" protestors call for the end of Communist rule. Which is pretty conclusive imo Genabab (talk) 21:00, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 28 November 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to 2022 COVID-19 protests in China. No point in hanging around, this is a highly visible page right now, and the most concise title seems uncontroversial.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:38, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2022 protests against COVID-19 lockdowns in China → 2022 COVID-19 lockdown protests in China – More concise title. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 14:22, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support I would go ahead and move it right now as I assume there is consensus on it. Arguably a title like 2022 COVID-19 protests in China would be even more concise. Gust Justice (talk) 15:30, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Premature move

Two problems with the move made by Amakuru on 28 November 2022 at 15:38 UTC.

  1. No consensus was developed with muliple editors over several days.
  2. It was not moved as proposed. Proposed was "2022 COVID-19 lockdown protests in China"

What's up with that? N2e (talk) 22:53, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@N2e: this page is currently linked from the main page and highly visible, and we don't need to spend days arguing about the title. The title was proposed in the RM above, and there doesn't seem much controversy over it as it is WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE, and sums up what the article is about. I would recommend not starting any further RMs at this point.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:07, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Chronological

This is a late explanation for the cleanup template. The idea is that a chronological layout would better depict the cause-and-effect of the protests, and to illustrate how the waves have different foci. For example, we have the first wave of SZ & Foxconn workers focusing on livelihood, then after the fire people (of a wider range of occupations) started going harder on wanting freedom. Artoria2e5 🌉 15:24, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"White paper revolution" name?

Only one article of the three Taiwanese articles cited mentions that the title "white paper revolution" or "A4 revolution" "has become known" (by who?); the others only reference that name in the titles of the articles. Since I have not heard anyone in the mainland refer to it as this, I'm removing it for now as possible journalist sensationalism and to possibly cause citogenesis --LatakiaHill (talk) 20:29, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah it seems a bit of an exaggeration to call this "revolutionary" Genabab (talk) 20:32, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Protests Died Down?

As of today. they seem to be no protest's and it's unlikely we will see anymore soon. converge has also lowered about these events.

Of course we should likely wait until we have more information but from early info so far. It seems these protests have ended in a short amount of time. Cilria (talk) 22:13, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If this is based solely on English-language coverage which tends to be biased towards events in English-speaking or Western countries, then that is not exactly a very good way to gauge the current status of the unrest on an hourly/daily basis, especially after such a short period of time. Totalibe (talk) 22:49, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
With one-party control of news in China, the blocked web, etc., it is difficult to draw any conclusions. Especially from just a day in the endless news cycle. Will need to wait, over time, for verifiable sources to support whatever is said in the article. N2e (talk) 22:56, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Recent lack of protest reporting can also be connected to increases in violent supression and police patrol. News will likely continue to be ongoing.--LatakiaHill (talk) 23:04, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comprehensive timeline of protests

I thought the protests could be traced back to as early as the 2022 Shanghai COVID-19 outbreak in late April. The Beijing Sitong Bridge protest on 2022-10-13 could also be added in this article since it's directly related to the topic. Wei4Earth (talk, contribs) 23:50, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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